Grossman on the pullout

August 15, 2005 11:32 AM

Vergangenheitsbewältigung, Israeli style? Amidst overwhelming public approval for the Gaza pullout, noted author David Grossman writes about the need for all Israelis to mourn today, in this Ha-Aretz editorial.
posted by ori (44 comments total)

Jeez, why not just call it Israeli Geschichtsaufarbeitung?
posted by klangklangston at 11:41 AM on August 15, 2005

Gesundheit.
posted by By The Grace of God at 11:46 AM on August 15, 2005

Oh, and would we be mourning the dreams of withdrawing apartheid Boers, or 'states rights' Thurmondites, er, No. Good riddance to the settlers, and now let's make sure Gaza isn't economically isolated (as it will be post-withdrawal).
posted by By The Grace of God at 11:47 AM on August 15, 2005

Meanwhile, the "settlers", who were paid by the Israeli government to move in there in the first place, are now receiving an average of $250,000 per family in "compensation" for giving back the land that wasn't theirs to begin with..

If I was them, I surely wouldn't be mourning.
posted by cleardawn at 11:53 AM on August 15, 2005

Sigh. The author meant that they should be mourning the human cost for such a selfish endeavour (the settlements).
posted by furtive at 11:59 AM on August 15, 2005

To save anybody else having to, I looked it up, and Vergangenheitsbewältigung == "coming to terms with the past." Just flexing a little, or trying to come across as all obscure and erudite?
posted by alumshubby at 11:59 AM on August 15, 2005

...mourning for the fact that the state brought itself to the place where it was forced to do such a violent, warlike and brutal thing to thousands of its citizens;

Mourning? This is a good thing. By dealing harshly with their own extremeists the Israelis are showing the Palestinians that they too have to deal harshly with Hamas and the other extremeists in their own midst.
posted by three blind mice at 12:04 PM on August 15, 2005

tbm: I agree.
posted by By The Grace of God at 12:06 PM on August 15, 2005

Thanks ori. Grossman perfectly captures the ambiguities of the disengagement. 1600 families that have been living and working (at the government's behest) since 1967 are now being uprooted and displaced. Whatever the overall politics and ethics of the sitation, this is a human tragedy.

BTGoG, if you can't or won't differentiate between the Gush Katif residents and the West Bank radicals who are infiltrating the Gush, you need to come back down to earth. Please realize that we're speaking of real people, generations of families who are being displaced to pursue a political end. We may agree with the actions of the Israeli state, but it makes their pain no less real. I suppose you'd be equally cavalier if the US government uprooted Floridians to return their homes to the Cherokees, no?

The one bright spot in all this seems to be that the Yesha Council and the radicals have badly overplayed their hand. The demonstrations today were mainly a wash and Uzi Landau all but admits that their strategy was a failure. If Abu Mazen can keep Hamas in check, this may yet work out.
posted by felix betachat at 12:06 PM on August 15, 2005

Vergangenheitsbewältigung vs. Geschichtsaufarbeitung. Wikipedia describes them as "more or less synonymous." What differentiates them? And in the context of this thread?
posted by 3.2.3 at 12:12 PM on August 15, 2005

Please realize that we're speaking of real people, generations of families who are being displaced to pursue a political end. We may agree with the actions of the Israeli state, but it makes their pain no less real.
I acknowledge their pain, but in this case I hope that their pain is educative - that it helps them to confront and grapple with the false consciousness that led them to settle on Palestinian families' land in the first place. They will be in a good position to reflect because the economic privations caused by displacement will be mitigated somewhat by their compensation.
posted by By The Grace of God at 12:15 PM on August 15, 2005

Please realize that we're speaking of real people, generations of families who are being displaced to pursue a political end.

Who were placed there in the first place in pursuit of a political end.

C'mon felix betachat this move is realpolitik. Plain and simple. The settlers were living on borrowed time and that time has run out.

If Abu Mazen can keep Hamas in check... surely you can't be serious? Yassar Arafat couldn't keep Hamas in check. What makes you think that Mahmoud Abbas can do it? The only thing that will keep Hamas in check is when the Palestinians as a whole stop supporting them, stop providing money, shelter, and recruits, and turn them out into the cold.
posted by three blind mice at 12:17 PM on August 15, 2005

tbm: Abu Mazen is pursuing a new strategy of engagement and gradual integration of Hamas into the governing framework of the PA. It's tentative at the moment, but there's hope that the political wing of Hamas will see that they have more to gain by engaging in collaborative state-building than they do from firing rockets into Israel. Put it this way: if they didn't retaliate after the attack in Shfaram, there's something unprecedented going on.

BTGoG: Yuck. The next time you find yourself wanting to use the term "false-consciousness" to describe people you've never met...don't.
posted by felix betachat at 12:25 PM on August 15, 2005

I've met them, felix.

I've argued with them many times from a very young age. My aunt and uncle have 10+ kids and 40+ grandkids, many of whom live in settlements in the West Bank, although none live in Gaza.
posted by By The Grace of God at 12:30 PM on August 15, 2005

...many of whom live in settlements in the West Bank, although none live in Gaza.

*Ahem*

BTGoG, if you can't or won't differentiate between the Gush Katif residents and the West Bank radicals who are infiltrating the Gush, you need to come back down to earth.
posted by felix betachat at 12:32 PM on August 15, 2005

It's splitting hairs, I think, to claim a significant distinction between settlers in the WB and in Gaza. Wouldn't you agree that there are some commonalities in their outlook?
posted by By The Grace of God at 12:38 PM on August 15, 2005

That's precisely my point. I don't agree that they can be equated. A third generation Gush Katif resident whose grandparents moved there after '67 at the invitation of the state is a world away from a 19 year old Kachnik kid from Brooklyn who wants to get his rocks off by living in a trailer on a W Bank hilltop.

You might have a point if you made a connection with the settlers who are still being encouraged to move into the new neighborhoods around Jerusalem. But even there, the motivations are primarily economic and only secondarily ideological. And in any case, such a subtle distinction is beyond the capabilities of the broad brush you've brought to this canvas.
posted by felix betachat at 12:44 PM on August 15, 2005

Vergangenheitsbewältigung vs. Geschichtsaufarbeitung. Wikipedia describes them as "more or less synonymous." What differentiates them? And in the context of this thread?

Geschichtsaufarbeitung can be read more as "gaining an upper hand on the past/the work of overcoming the past", or maybe more generally "moving on", or even somehow "*conquering* demons", rather than just "coming to terms" with the past. I guess you can read what you want into the semantics, but as far as I know they are used interchangeably.
posted by loquax at 12:46 PM on August 15, 2005

The Washington Post has online discussions today supporting and opposing the withdrawal.

Why is the Gaza Strip a strip? The designation of the geographical area as the Gaza Strip seems to have originated in the 1949 Armistance Agreement with Egypt. Did they just draw a border between the Egyptian and Israeli armies when the fighting stopped, or is there something geographically distinct about the strip?
posted by kirkaracha at 12:51 PM on August 15, 2005

Sorry, I didn't mean for this to come across as pretentious. To me, Grossman's rhetoric sounded incredibly similar to all the talk in Germany of having to "mourn" for the loss of the love many Germans felt for Hitler and coming to terms with the loss and devestation Germany incurred as a part of the war, even though it was "Germany's fault". Many Israelis on the Hebrew Ha-aretz website (which published this editorial originally) had the same knee-jerk reaction as people on the blue: "Mourn?! Good riddance!". But as Grossman, who's pretty far left on the Israeli spectrum and has participated in many great initiatives for peace, points out, the pullout has an immense psychological dimension in its effect on the Israeli mentality. I hope you guys give it a read.

Google "interviews with David Grossman" for a more in-depth overview of his political position, if you're interested.
posted by ori at 12:54 PM on August 15, 2005

While I agree with much of the article, I cannot help but note that the author does not see fit to call for mourning for the suffering of Palestinians, only for the "suffering" of Israelis, which strikes me as a little bizarre, under the circumstances.

The suffering of the Palestinians is real; their homes destroyed, their children starving and unschooled, their land stolen, their future prospects bleak and uncertain, at the whim of their enemy.

The "suffering" of the Gaza settlers, by contrast, is purely ideological. They are going to continue to live lives of luxury and safety, paid for largely by the US. All they have to "mourn" is the fact that they haven't succeeded in stealing quite as much land as they wanted from the Arabs.

I really don't see any equivalence with post-war Germany, though it would be nice to think that some kind of truthful reconciliation process could begin in Israel, and perhaps, just maybe, this might be what is happening. I certainly hope so.
posted by cleardawn at 2:06 PM on August 15, 2005

giving back the land that wasn't theirs to begin with..

Whose land was it, to begin with? Why?
posted by Kwantsar at 2:16 PM on August 15, 2005

What cleardawn said.
posted by By The Grace of God at 2:23 PM on August 15, 2005

Vergangenheitsbewältigung vs. Geschichtsaufarbeitung.

I'm sorry, if anyone cares I accidentally mixed up the terms. Vergangenheitsbewältigung is the business of getting the upper hand on the past while Geschichtsaufarbeitung is the working through or processing of history.
posted by loquax at 2:34 PM on August 15, 2005

Kwantsar, that is a good question. Here is a story you might like, filched from Tash's very beautiful (but irrelevent to this topic!) site:

Once upon a time, a Gypsy traveller parked his van in a farmer's field. The farmer sprinted over at once, shouting "Get off my land!" to which the traveller replied, "How did it become your land?"

"I inherited it from my father!" replied the irate landowner.

"And how did he get it?"

"He inherited it from his father, and he from his, and he from his, back to my ancestor of eight generations!"

"And how did he get it?"

"He fought for it!" replied the farmer.

"Well then," said the traveller, rolling up his sleeves, "I'll fight you for it."

- it's a fine story, but not, perhaps, an ideal way to organise peaceful international relations.
posted by cleardawn at 2:35 PM on August 15, 2005

Whose land was it, to begin with? Why?

The Assyrians. Maybe the Achaemenids. Or the Phoenicians. The Macedonians too, under Alexander the Great. Of course the Italians have a claim, as does the Vatican. Of course, there's always the Fatmid Caliphate, the Kingdom of Jerusalem and the Sultanate of Damascus. I think the whole lot should be returned to Turkey though. They held it the longest.
posted by loquax at 2:41 PM on August 15, 2005

"Vergangenheitsbewältigung vs. Geschichtsaufarbeitung."
I was making a vaguely sarcastic quip about the obscure (to non-German speakers) terminology. While they are essentially the same, there's subtle shades of difference (that I may feel more than native speakers because I had learn them by roots). As I understand it, the first has the connotation of struggle, the second of work. But they are pretty much synonymous.
posted by klangklangston at 3:53 PM on August 15, 2005

are now receiving an average of $250,000 per family in "compensation" for giving back the land that wasn't theirs to begin with.

Wait, it gets better! Y'know who's taxpayers are picking up the USD 2.2 billion tab? I'll give you a hint: three letters, first one's a U...
posted by ZenMasterThis at 6:22 PM on August 15, 2005

I can't wait to move into my new apartment in Gaza, all bought and paid for by the USA through my taxes. And it'll be fun to kick out both the Palestinians and the Israelis if they get in my way.
posted by Balisong at 7:32 PM on August 15, 2005

What's going to happen to the ones who stay? Will they live peacefully and coexist, or in tiny walled ghettos?
posted by amberglow at 7:39 PM on August 15, 2005

(there's a real opportunity to show peaceful coexistence, but i think the ones vowing to stay are the biggest jerks)
posted by amberglow at 7:47 PM on August 15, 2005

(there's a real opportunity to show peaceful coexistence, but i think the ones vowing to stay are the biggest jerks)

The ones who are staying are trying to prove a point to the Israeli government, they're not particularily interested in or concerned with peaceful coexistance at the moment. Sadly, even if they were, mortars were falling and settlers were having pot shots taken at them today as they were being evacuated, despite Mazen's and the PA's best efforts.
posted by loquax at 9:06 PM on August 15, 2005

What's going to happen to the ones who stay?

No Israelis are staying, amberglow. In a couple of days, the few who remain will be removed by the army. Forcibly, if need be. Expect to see some pretty heart-wrenching scenes, the pathos and complexity of which will sail over the heads of most of the people commenting here.

No...sorry...it won't sail over their heads, they'll continue wilfully to duck under it. Such complacent self-righteousness is the continuing privilege of the American and European left.

Aside from the West Bank infiltrators, who are uniformly jerks, the last few members of the Gush who remain are doing so to preserve their pride. I suspect they want to be able to tell their children that they didn't leave their family homes voluntarily. Again, I abhor their politics, but cannot but respect their emotions.
posted by felix betachat at 2:44 AM on August 16, 2005

Unfortunately, amberglow, there will be no "tiny ghettoes" of peacefully-coexisting Israelis remaining in Gaza, for the simple reason that they would be lynched.

The policies of the Israelis over the last 50 years have been so resoundingly popular among Palestinians that any Israeli in Gaza without heavily-armed bodyguards would last about as long as, say, an American in Baghdad.

"Complacent self-righteousness" is indeed a fair description of the attitude that has produced this situation.

Felix betachat is fairly typical of "moderate" Israelis, in that he finds it easy to empathise with the "pathos" and "complexity" of the Jewish settlers' emotions, but somehow has no feelings worth mentioning about the Palestinians whose lives have been destroyed by the occupation. It's hard to avoid the conclusion that he sees the Palestinians as "less human" than the Jews.

Felix's complacent self-righteousness is shared by the majority of his compatriots, and it's unlikely to change until the US stops funding the Israeli military - at which point, belatedly, people like Felix will doubtless begin to show a little more concern for the feelings of Palestinians.
posted by cleardawn at 7:03 AM on August 16, 2005

cleardawn: It's common knowledge that 'other' people, ranging from people from a different ethnic group, and up to people whom you just don't know personally, are less human.

Don't be so appalled with Felix, this is the way most humans think. Even the most enlightened countries, with the most 'advanced' notions concerning human rights, support these rights for their citizens only, with lesser rights, if any, for, say, illegal aliens.

My point is that it's easy for you to see that the Palestinians have suffered much more in this bloody contest, but Israelis are still more interested in the suffering of their own, however minor.

Also, Israelis have a very long tradition of ignoring Palestinian suffering. This is definitely not the time to start caring.
posted by urish at 8:37 AM on August 16, 2005

Urish, I agree with everything you say except for two things.

Firstly, I'm not "appalled" by Felix. I consider him typical, as I said, of moderate Israeli opinion. If I met him, I'd be happy to buy him a beer and talk about it. There are others, far more extreme than he, that still don't "appall" me. I disagree with his political views, for the reasons I pointed out, is all.

Secondly, I strongly disagree with your final clause.

Now is always the right time to start caring. It's the only time we have.
posted by cleardawn at 2:53 PM on August 16, 2005

cleardawn, my last clause was supposed to be ironic, I guess it wasn't clear enough...
posted by urish at 12:21 AM on August 17, 2005

3.2.3 said, Vergangenheitsbewältigung vs. Geschichtsaufarbeitung. Wikipedia describes them as "more or less synonymous." What differentiates them? And in the context of this thread?

I think he was just joking about the obscurity of the word.
posted by abcde at 12:48 AM on August 17, 2005

Gaza July 2004
posted by peacay at 4:52 AM on August 17, 2005

Why are they going to bulldoze all the houses? It's such a waste.

And I'm confused...isn't there an area somewhere where the settlers are staying if they wish? And where are all these people going?
posted by amberglow at 10:08 AM on August 17, 2005

amberglow: The settlers won't be allowed to stay. It became illegal for any Israeli citizen to remain in the Gaza strip after the evacuation order was given. What the army is doing right now in Neveh Dekalim and Kfar Darom and other places is enforcing the evacuation order. In practice, Americans or other foreigners who are continuing to occupy the settlements will be forcibly removed as well.

The Israeli government has established new homes for the settlers in a town near Tel Aviv called Nitzanim. Many are taking the new residences, but others have chosen to take their compensation and move elsewhere in the country. Additionally, the government is establishing new farms (item 6) for the settlers who've had to give up theirs in Gaza.

The houses are being bulldozed because the Palestinians have said they don't want them.

cleardawn: I'm not an Israeli. Once again, it's wrong to jump to conclusions about people based on where they live. Despite your presumption, you know nothing about my feelings toward the Palestinian people. Your unfounded conclusion that I consider them "less than human" is extremely offensive.

The top story in the NYTimes today describes a range of complicated emotions on the part of the Palestinians toward the departing settlers. I wonder why you don't permit yourself the same sort of empathy that some of these people, themselves the actual and ongoing victims of the Israeli occupation, can't help but feel. Perhaps it's because they are living that complex reality while you are simply commenting on it from the security (and anonymity) of your home.
posted by felix betachat at 3:43 AM on August 18, 2005

God writes a memo to the settlers (Fanatical Apathy)--...You’d think a few dozen centuries of enslavement, diaspora, and whatnot would’ve clued you in that you’re going to have to work out your problems with other people without my help, that I’m not going to intervene and keep you on that land if you insist on behaving like a bunch of assholes. You’d think.

Yes, I’m an angry God. That at least shouldn’t be a shocker.

And by the way, let’s say you do settle all that land that I promised you? What then? I don’t remember saying anything like “…and then I’ll give you all free candy and the best seats for Mets games,” do you? Nope. It’s just land, after all. Nobody’s going to Heaven for occupying the right piece of real estate, even if you improve the property and put in a couple of pools and a senior center and whatnot. ...
posted by amberglow at 9:56 PM on August 20, 2005

thanks felix--is it the west bank where some are staying then? i remember stories on the news about it.
posted by amberglow at 9:57 PM on August 20, 2005

I'm not sure if anyone is still following this thread, but there are some powerful words from Elie Wiesel in today's New York Times on the disengagement.

Apart from the (ultimately irrelevant) ethics of the disengagement, Wiesel's is a reminder that the fractures it has exposed in Israeli society should caution restraint from the Palestinians. More bellicose rhetoric will further galvanize the anti-disengagement right and harm the Palestinian cause. You can correlate precisely the aggressive stance of the Palestinians in the next year with the political fortunes of Netanyahu.

Any bets on whether Abbas or Hamas take his advice?
posted by felix betachat at 4:54 AM on August 21, 2005