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Well, there's at least ONE "Whitie" could use some killin'...
August 26, 2005 5:41 PM   Subscribe

The minstrel show is alive and well. In case you were in any doubt that Williamsburg is chock full of unbelievable wankers, Jeremy Parker brings us Kill Whitie, a hip hop dance party by whitie, for whitie... to mock non-whitie (possibly NSFW). I mean, how is this really all that different from, say, this?
posted by dersins (177 comments total)

 
Oh, and here are some photos,, many of which are probably not so safe for work.
posted by dersins at 5:46 PM on August 26, 2005


Don't you know anything? Irony excuses racism. Haven't you been reading Vice?
posted by klangklangston at 5:57 PM on August 26, 2005


Tha Pumpsta, who happens be white, has built a following in the past few years by staging monthly "Kill Whitie" parties in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, for large groups of white hipsters.

Self-hating white hipsters are amusing. I feel like driving these nitwits to the south bronx and leaving them there.
posted by jonmc at 5:58 PM on August 26, 2005


Well, it's Friday night and I'm mildly intoxicated but I have to say that having skimmed your links I can see lots of ways in which Mr. Parker's jolly wheeze strikes me as being different from minstrel shows. Most of them are spelled with a big fat I, R, O, N and Y. Perhaps you struggle with this concept. Thank goodness I don't.

I also live in Williamsburg. Oops! What a giveaway!
posted by Decani at 5:59 PM on August 26, 2005


And no, kk. Irony does not excuse racism. It takes the piss out of witless imbeciles. Such as people who think it excuses racism. In this respect it is probably horribly elitist and smug, And hoo-cunting-ray for that, you ineffable dolt.
posted by Decani at 6:00 PM on August 26, 2005


Most of them are spelled with a big fat I, R, O, N and Y.

"Irony is the voice of the trapped who have come to enjoy their cage" - (I forget who)

I also live in Williamsburg.

Was this show merely a tribute to those you've gentrified out of the neighborhood?
posted by jonmc at 6:01 PM on August 26, 2005


I feel like driving these nitwits to the south bronx and leaving them there.

Forgive me for not knowing the geography, but is there a river nearby where we can leave them with heavy things tied to their ankles?
posted by Cyrano at 6:02 PM on August 26, 2005


"I can at least recall who the fuck is responsible for quotes I post on Metafilter" - Decani.

Was this show merely a tribute to those you've gentrified out of the neighborhood?

No. But by golly, you're thick.
posted by Decani at 6:03 PM on August 26, 2005


Yes. But would be more fun watching the natives beat them to a bloody pulp first. This is a stupid fratboy stunt with an added veneer of hipster pretension that makes it even more offensive
posted by jonmc at 6:05 PM on August 26, 2005


No. But by golly, you're thick.

Enlighten me, your majesty. Am I just not "cool" enough to understand it? Maybe my buddy Kevin, a 6 foot plus 230lb black guy who sits next to me at work can come see the show and share his thoughts on it as well.
posted by jonmc at 6:07 PM on August 26, 2005


The second sentence of my original post: In case you were in any doubt that Williamsburg is chock full of unbelievable wankers...

Decani: I also live in Williamsburg...

Tee hee.
posted by dersins at 6:09 PM on August 26, 2005



I am outraged.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 6:11 PM on August 26, 2005


Maybe my buddy Kevin, a 6 foot plus 230lb black guy who sits next to me at work can come see the show and share his thoughts on it as well.

Sure, why not? I'd say the odds are he has more fucking sense than you given the snide kneejerk bullshit that's pissing out of your gob here. Or was that a tkchrist-esque veiled threat? Is he gonna beat some hipster ass up? Oooh. Dem niggaz is so tough. I'll buy him a Hennesey in Trash.

Get a fucking grip, eh John? You sound like an especially prudish republican.
posted by Decani at 6:11 PM on August 26, 2005


Keep going. You're digging your own rhetorical grave here.

the snide kneejerk bullshit that's pissing out of your gob here

Please. Nobody has less patience with knee-jerk racial obsequiousness than me. But being a self-appointed hipster is not a liscence to put up racist parody and hide behind the all-purpose excuse of "irony."

Oooh. Dem niggaz is so tough. I'll buy him a Hennesey in Trash.

Actually, my freind grew up middle-class in Chicago, and dosen't drink much, but thanks.
posted by jonmc at 6:16 PM on August 26, 2005


Was this show merely a tribute to those you've gentrified out of the neighborhood?

Woah, smack!
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:19 PM on August 26, 2005


Wow, I'm writing this having moved out of Bburg to Seattle. That place is full of wanna-be model s#@theads. But there are a#%holes everywhere. There's also a lot of perfectly nice people who live there.

That being said, I'm really glad I'm not there to have to go beat the crap out of these morons.

Adios, idjits.
posted by lumpenprole at 6:20 PM on August 26, 2005


There's also a lot of perfectly nice people who live there.

They should move to Astoria instead. Better housing, cheaper rents, less pretentious wankers.
posted by jonmc at 6:21 PM on August 26, 2005


vague tip... never a sterling idea to post while drunk.

Wonder how hard it would be to troll Decani into a flameout right now?
posted by edgeways at 6:25 PM on August 26, 2005


Keep going. You're digging your own rhetorical grave here

Sure, and because you said that, I'm definitely intimidated.

But being a self-appointed hipster is not a liscence to put up racist parody and hide behind the all-purpose excuse of "irony."

Racist? Well, that depends on whether you get irony or not. You clearly don't. But if you were slightly smarter you'd have the sense not to assume that your personal mental limitations mark the boundary of the acceptable for everyone else. I commiserate with your lack of smarts there, but not very much. Hey, at least you have a big mouth and a hell of a lot of confidence in what comes out of it to compensate. You probably get to shag a lot of waitresses, am I right?
posted by Decani at 6:32 PM on August 26, 2005


A flameout? Nah. I'm far too mellow and not actually drunk.
posted by Decani at 6:32 PM on August 26, 2005


I posit that this was posted specifically to bait jonmc, you everyone knows likes to type drunk on Friday nights, into saying stupid shit like how many black friends he has. And Decani is way too much of a stereotype to not be someone's sockpuppet.
posted by gwint at 6:35 PM on August 26, 2005


Your answers are sooo revealing, decani, keep going please.
posted by jonmc at 6:35 PM on August 26, 2005


into saying stupid shit like how many black friends he has

I mentioned one black freind, to make the point that Decani probably wouldn't be as sanguine presenting this farce to him. But apparently he would be. Sad.
posted by jonmc at 6:37 PM on August 26, 2005


"It takes the piss out of witless imbeciles. Such as people who think it excuses racism. In this respect it is probably horribly elitist and smug, And hoo-cunting-ray for that, you ineffable dolt."
Bullshit, you ankle-grabbing ass eater. Irony allows someone to engage in something while simultaneously distancing themselves from it. And if you think "Kill Whitey" is the height of irony, you slope-browed simian, you need to spend a little less time with your own cock in your mouth and a little more time getting the shit kicked out of you by people who can't parse your pretentious semantic masturbation.
posted by klangklangston at 6:37 PM on August 26, 2005


"Racist? Well, that depends on whether you get irony or not."
Right, because you can't "get" irony if this IS racist. Got anything to say that does stem from come clogging your brain?
posted by klangklangston at 6:39 PM on August 26, 2005


klangklangston wins.
posted by ericost at 6:40 PM on August 26, 2005


Your answers are sooo revealing, decani, keep going please.

Are they? Excellent. I do like to be clear.

Bullshit, you ankle-grabbing ass eater. Irony allows someone to engage in something while simultaneously distancing themselves from it. And if you think "Kill Whitey" is the height of irony, you slope-browed simian, you need to spend a little less time with your own cock in your mouth and a little more time getting the shit kicked out of you by people who can't parse your pretentious semantic masturbation.

Ah. I see. Perhaps I could start by hanging around people who like to talk violence across the internet. Do you think that would be a good precursor to getting the shit *actually* kicked out of me, tough guy?
posted by Decani at 6:42 PM on August 26, 2005


doesn't.
posted by klangklangston at 6:42 PM on August 26, 2005


By the way... what's wrong with eating ass anyway? I mean, if you're not a homophobe or a prude, obviously? Just curious.
posted by Decani at 6:43 PM on August 26, 2005


"Ah. I see. Perhaps I could start by hanging around people who like to talk violence across the internet. Do you think that would be a good precursor to getting the shit *actually* kicked out of me, tough guy?"
Perhaps learning to read would do you good on this thing they call the internet, Jack.
posted by klangklangston at 6:44 PM on August 26, 2005


" By the way... what's wrong with eating ass anyway? I mean, if you're not a homophobe or a prude, obviously? Just curious."
The taste. If you didn't have your head up your ass, you'd notice it.
posted by klangklangston at 6:44 PM on August 26, 2005


Are they?

Yes. They reveal that your the type of person who likes to applaud idiot behavior of idler twits, and that when called on it your riposte is basically "you're not smart enough to get it. only sophisticates like myself can." Which is possibly the weakest explictaion ever.

If that's true the whole display isn't about attacking racism, merely self-congratulation. Either way it's lame.
posted by jonmc at 6:45 PM on August 26, 2005


Hey, kk. Why did you use my real name all of a sudden? What's that about? And what, exactly, did I misread?
posted by Decani at 6:46 PM on August 26, 2005


when called on it your riposte is basically "you're not smart enough to get it

But what if that happens to be true? See, I haven't actually seen any argument from you against this guy's clearly ironic shtick. Just mindless, knee-jerk, anti-hipster abuse. So forgive me for not exactly being inclined to give you the slightest respect. I tend to have that reaction to people who talk like bigots.
posted by Decani at 6:49 PM on August 26, 2005


" Hey, kk. Why did you use my real name all of a sudden? What's that about? And what, exactly, did I misread?"
Maybe I was using it ironically, Jack. You'd get it, you know, if you weren't so stupid.
What did you misread? Ask yourself where the "tough guy" came from.
posted by klangklangston at 6:51 PM on August 26, 2005


I tend to have that reaction to people who talk like bigots.

Hipsters are now a protected minority group? Pardon me while I laugh until I wet my pants. Hipster is as hipster does, and last time I checked, criticising behavior does not make one a bigot.

See, I haven't actually seen any argument from you against this guy's clearly ironic shtick.

Quit using the word "ironic." It's become a blanket excuse for idiocy.
posted by jonmc at 6:52 PM on August 26, 2005


"I tend to have that reaction to people who talk like bigots."
Oh, are you wounded? Did someone shit on your hipster soul?
The cognative dissonance between calling Jonmc a bigot for bashing piss-weak hipster faux-irony and ignoring the "get in free with fried chicken" really takes an aggressive level of critical ineptitude and social myopia.
But hey, pour back another $6 PBR, Willybaby.
posted by klangklangston at 6:56 PM on August 26, 2005


You were using my real name ironically? I'm sorry, I have to confess I'm not smart enough to understand how that's ironic, so I'd appreciate it if you'd explain it to me. I do like to learn. How is suddenly referring to me by my real name ironic? Where, exactly, is the irony? What does it pertain to?

Also, I don't see how you've answered my other question "What did I misread?" I'm perhaps being thick here, so I'll come right out and ask you to answer very directly, fully and unambiguously. If you're being ironic or wilfully abstruse I have to admit it's going way over my head.
posted by Decani at 6:56 PM on August 26, 2005


Didn't follow the links, at work and trusting in flags, but i can think of at least one examples of something like this that i didn't find offensive, in fact i think NOFX's song 'Kill All the White Man' is actually pretty brilliant.

That said, based on what i'm reading here, this is not so cool.

/shrug
posted by quin at 6:57 PM on August 26, 2005


By the way, you're not smart, merely a smartass. There's a difference.
posted by jonmc at 6:58 PM on August 26, 2005


Decani, the guy has posters offering free admission if you bring a bucket of fried chicken. That's not ironic schtick, any more than it would be if he were wearing blackface like the cops in this article. It's straight up racism.

Likewise, this is just another way of saying "ha ha black people like fried chicken and malt liquor and wear their pants SO LOW!!! HAHAHAHAH."

That's not irony, that's mockery.
posted by dersins at 6:58 PM on August 26, 2005


last time I checked, criticising behavior does not make one a bigot.

Absolutely. But last time I checked, slagging a group of people off without giving solid reasons for it, does.

Quit using the word "ironic." It's become a blanket excuse for idiocy.

No, I won't, actually. In spite of the fact that your response to it has become a pitifully sad reinforcement of the stereotype about Americans not really understanding it.
posted by Decani at 6:58 PM on August 26, 2005


Calling someone "Jack" is a faux familiaritive, like calling them "buddy."
And the part you misread was translating my thought that you could be taught social niceties by having your ass kicked to a threat to do it myself (I have no desire to travel to NY right now).
posted by klangklangston at 6:59 PM on August 26, 2005


in fact i think NOFX's song 'Kill All the White Man' is actually pretty brilliant.

NOFX made explicit in "Don't Call Me White," that they were tearing apart a mindset, and they weren't being coyly ironic. This is a bunch of kids playing dressup.
posted by jonmc at 6:59 PM on August 26, 2005


Statement: Irony nullifies racism.

Are you sure you want to argue pro?
posted by jenovus at 7:00 PM on August 26, 2005


I can see some people thinking that this is racist, but meh, to me it's just so far away from that. I guess that it comes down to whether you think they are mocking black people, or actually enjoying hip-hop music and dress, albiet for one night. The fried chicken thing seems out of line, but the rest seems like people enjoying dancing to sexy music around practically naked people. That doesn't sound like a bad thing.
posted by 23skidoo at 7:00 PM on August 26, 2005


Oh-- the second link in my comment above is possibly NSFW. Sorry.
posted by dersins at 7:00 PM on August 26, 2005


Did someone shit on your hipster soul?

Not really. I'm a 46-year old British guy who's about as hip as Pink Floyd. Actually, not nearly that hip.

Decani, the guy has posters offering free admission if you bring a bucket of fried chicken. That's not ironic schtick

Ummm... yeah, it really is. Damn. You guys really don't get irony, do you? My God - don't ever rent "Brass Eye", you'll give yourselves an aneurysm.
posted by Decani at 7:02 PM on August 26, 2005


It appears we've hit a Gödelian event horizon.

*douses self in gasoline, lights self on fire, runs down Bedford Avenue*
posted by icosahedral at 7:03 PM on August 26, 2005


"No, I won't, actually. In spite of the fact that your response to it has become a pitifully sad reinforcement of the stereotype about Americans not really understanding it."
Oh, come off of it, shit stain. If you "got" irony, you'd be able to understand why a) this is at best weak "distancing" irony, not satiric irony, and b) how irony is pretty fucking irrelevant to the discussion.
I have no problem if you want to start arguing about the nuance between Socrates and Schlegel's treatment of irony, or Kierkegaard's treatment of such. Instead, you're acting like saying "Not!" after a sentence makes it sarcasm.
posted by klangklangston at 7:03 PM on August 26, 2005


I can see some people thinking that this is racist, but meh, to me it's just so far away from that. I guess that it comes down to whether you think they are mocking black people, or actually enjoying hip-hop music and dress, albiet for one night.

A few years back there was a brouhaha about a fraternity, who's initiation included "Nigger Night," where pledges were told to arrive dressed in hip-hop type clothes. Sorry, but this just seems like a more sophisticated version of that. And repeatedly saying "It's ironic! You just don't get it!" is not a defense, just an excuse.
posted by jonmc at 7:04 PM on August 26, 2005


And the part you misread was translating my thought that you could be taught social niceties by having your ass kicked to a threat to do it myself

No sir. It seems you misread, not me. I said:

"Perhaps I could start by hanging around people who like to talk violence across the internet"

And you were, unquestionably, talking violence across the internet. I said nothing about whether you were threatening it.

I believe there are a variety of decent reading primers available for the "special" adult.
posted by Decani at 7:05 PM on August 26, 2005


Decani writes "You guys really don't get irony, do you? "

Oh, I get it, you're being ironic right there, and arguing with you proves that we don't get the irony of your statement. Because irony is totally cool. But then I guess I wouldn't get that.

Since when is irony inviolable?
posted by jenovus at 7:06 PM on August 26, 2005


Instead, you're acting like saying "Not!" after a sentence makes it sarcasm

Not!
posted by Decani at 7:06 PM on August 26, 2005


"The fried chicken thing seems out of line, but the rest seems like people enjoying dancing to sexy music around practically naked people. That doesn't sound like a bad thing."
That isn't a bad thing. What's that got to do with race? Once you can answer that, you'll understand why this is offensive.
posted by klangklangston at 7:06 PM on August 26, 2005


I'm sorry, my mom's calling. I'm going to have to take the irony and go home now. You fucking kids couldn't put a team together anyway. On behalf of everyone around your age, die.

I saw this off Gawker today and thought the people involved had to be such a small subset of horrible, horrible human beings that I wasn't going to bother worrying about you reproducing. And yet, here you fucking are, apeing the guy in the last line of the article.

"If you don't see it's funny"? Young Master No-one, I already know everything you know and some more. You're a few years out of college and you're on fire with the things you need to teach us. Bullshit to that. You are not a unique snowflake. You're the fuck in front of us in line everywhere, standing there in flip flops and whatever Abercrombier told you to wear this year, talking way to loud to your "friends" in hopes of entertaining everyone around you. Except, two things: 1. Your friends aren't friends, they're other kids out of college who are scared of being alone too, so you all hang out. 2. YOU ARE NOT FUNNY. I made all those jokes years ago. Boo.

Also: nothing done for irony's sake is worthwhile.
posted by yerfatma at 7:07 PM on August 26, 2005


Since when is irony inviolable?

Since the enlightenment. And I'll personally kick the ass of anyone who disagrees.
posted by Decani at 7:08 PM on August 26, 2005


"I believe there are a variety of decent reading primers available for the "special" adult."
Perhaps you'd like to read one then. They might even delve into irony for you, and anything you can get above a thrid-grade level will have to be more sophisticated than your current understanding.
posted by klangklangston at 7:08 PM on August 26, 2005


My word. I almost had a religious ecperience there. I fancied I understood part of yerfatma's post. I'm okay again now.
posted by Decani at 7:09 PM on August 26, 2005


Decani, you talking about The Enlightenment actually is ironic.
posted by jenovus at 7:10 PM on August 26, 2005


and anything you can get above a thrid-grade level will have to be more sophisticated than your current understanding.

Killer rebuttal! Here's mine! ready?

Your mommy smells of wee.

Man, I rock.
posted by Decani at 7:10 PM on August 26, 2005


And I'll personally kick the ass of anyone who disagrees.

Like I'm afraid of a spotty, tea-sucking bad-tooth sporting, third world oppressing limey bloke!

(I was being "ironic")
posted by jonmc at 7:11 PM on August 26, 2005


Decani, you talking about The Enlightenment actually is ironic.

Give that man the cuddly toy! He gets it!
posted by Decani at 7:11 PM on August 26, 2005


A few years back there was a brouhaha about a fraternity, who's initiation included "Nigger Night," where pledges were told to arrive dressed in hip-hop type clothes. Sorry, but this just seems like a more sophisticated version of that. And repeatedly saying "It's ironic! You just don't get it!" is not a defense, just an excuse.

Well, sure, because of the word "nigger". Would "Hip-Hip Night" have been bad? Is dressing urban now off-limits if you're not black (or Puerto Rican or Dominican)? I agree the ironic thing gets thrown around too much, but I was actually positing that they may be enjoying these things in earnest.
posted by 23skidoo at 7:11 PM on August 26, 2005


Irony: If the "Kill Whitey" shows, as put on by white people, actually promoted violence against white people.
Faux irony: Pretending that a reconstruction of appropriated stereotypes is somehow witty or fresh.
posted by klangklangston at 7:12 PM on August 26, 2005


(I was being "ironic")

See, you were doing so well and you blew it. I KNEW that! Don't over-egg the pudding, mate!
posted by Decani at 7:12 PM on August 26, 2005


I fancied I understood

Troll, this isn't irony. You don't know what it is. And everyone of your heroes from Monty Python hates you. The only irony here is that you and every other Dance Party 33°-goer here will turn into a NIMBY-squawking, conservative-voting TV jockey. You will be your parents and no neighborhood can save you from that fate. Additionally, I am awesome.
posted by yerfatma at 7:14 PM on August 26, 2005


I agree the ironic thing gets thrown around too much, but I was actually positing that they may be enjoying these things in earnest.

The fried chicken thing kinda puts that theory to bed for me, 23skidoo. Especially since it's the type of people at this party who have driven the original (working-class balck, puerto rican, jewish, polish and italian) residents out of the neighborhood with high rents.

To quote my Williamsburgh-raised Italian-American co-worker "They took my quiet,freindly working-class neighborhood and turned it into funkin' SoHo!"

So to me this is the conquerors enjoying a joke at the conquereds expense.
posted by jonmc at 7:15 PM on August 26, 2005


"Would "Hip-Hip Night" have been bad?"
Yes. Hip-Hop Night, however...

If they enjoy these things in earnest, then don't fucking dress them up in "ironic" signifiers in order to distance yourself from people who authentically enjoy them (along with the stereotypes and cultural baggage that suggests).
A black person calling another black person "nigger" IS ironic. A white person calling a black person (with whom they do not have an established relationship) "nigger" is both stupid and racist.
posted by klangklangston at 7:15 PM on August 26, 2005


And if this is simply you being ironic as a troll, I plead drunkenness. And you're still unimaginative and less than 0 funny.
posted by yerfatma at 7:16 PM on August 26, 2005


I'm "ironically" raping you death! I'm "ironically" calling you a collosal english dumbass! It's ok, it's "ironic"!

"Irony" often means that I do something I secretly like, but isn't "cool" to admit to doing, so I make fun of it while I do it, or it's something that other people like, and that crawls up my as so much I devote my time to apeing them and "parodying" their actions, never realising that spending my time doing something I don't like doing simply to annoy other people makes me look like an ass. Or both.

This is what worship of irony gets you: Doofuses who are incapable of enjoying anything on it's own merits, and must make up some stupid "ironic" scene (complete with pasty hipster chicks,) in order to do so, not realizing that in doing so, he's basically insulting anyone who enjoys this (hip-hop culture, not being a racist,) without having to having to be unbeliveably self-conscious, and, by seriously and aggressivly tying this into race, insulting black people as well.
posted by Snyder at 7:16 PM on August 26, 2005


yerfatma, apparently irony is negative funny.
posted by jenovus at 7:17 PM on August 26, 2005


Also, my uncles Vinny and Nicky were raised in Williamsburg. They don't recognize their old neighborhood now. It's a damned disgrace.
posted by jonmc at 7:17 PM on August 26, 2005


Lordy, I have to go to bed. This has been moderately fun. Arrivederci, mes braves! May the light of understanding irradiate your collective colons and become a new dawn of enlightenment over the dark night of Mefi's soul! Or failing that may you at least get a good, hard shag this weekend.

Never trust the Shiraz, my people. It is the cheap, blowsy hussy of the vine.
posted by Decani at 7:17 PM on August 26, 2005


"Man, I rock."
Yes. Totally brill, mate.
posted by klangklangston at 7:17 PM on August 26, 2005


There's that enlightenment talk again.
posted by jenovus at 7:19 PM on August 26, 2005


Lordy, I have to go to bed. This has been moderately fun. Arrivederci, mes braves! May the light of understanding irradiate your collective colons and become a new dawn of enlightenment over the dark night of Mefi's soul! Or failing that may you at least get a good, hard shag this weekend.

Never trust the Shiraz, my people. It is the cheap, blowsy hussy of the vine.


Wow, we've been totally taken to school.


ironic!
posted by Snyder at 7:20 PM on August 26, 2005



Fair dinkum outraged.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 7:21 PM on August 26, 2005


In a spirit all hipsters will appreciate, I'd like to point out Mayor Curley and I pulled this crap on the Internet back in 1997.
posted by yerfatma at 7:21 PM on August 26, 2005


If they enjoy these things in earnest, then don't fucking dress them up in "ironic" signifiers in order to distance yourself from people who authentically enjoy them (along with the stereotypes and cultural baggage that suggests).

I agree, but that just makes them chickenshits and idiots to me, not really racist.
posted by 23skidoo at 7:22 PM on August 26, 2005


Since when is irony inviolable?

It's not ironic. It's just coincidental.
posted by Cyrano at 7:24 PM on August 26, 2005


Much like rain on your wedding day.
posted by icosahedral at 7:27 PM on August 26, 2005


It's like ten thousand spoons, when you already gouged your eyes out years ago.
posted by jenovus at 7:29 PM on August 26, 2005


Icosahedral: I believe you mean the good advice that you just didn't take.
(Morrisette is really short. Just so you know).
posted by klangklangston at 7:29 PM on August 26, 2005


Also: nothing done for irony's sake is worthwhile.
Well said.

Additionally, I am awesome.
Yes, you are.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 7:34 PM on August 26, 2005


Christ, it's like something out of Nathan Barley.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 7:41 PM on August 26, 2005


Spike Lee's recent movie, "Bamboozled," is (in my opinion) perhaps his most brilliant movie. It addresses many of the issues that are being discussed here in biting, insightful, and funny ways. Reviews were mixed, but I found that the critics who did not like the movie did not sound like they understood the movie. I highly recommend it to anyone who is interested in this thread.
posted by flarbuse at 7:44 PM on August 26, 2005


Lordy, I have to go to bed.

I believe you all have burned the witch. We've all learned a lot here tonight. Like how jonmc has a black friend and a working-class co-worker. And some uncles. Also klangklangston once again proved that you can be right about and issue and behave like an utter prick for 30 comments in a row.

Party's over folks. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here.
posted by gwint at 7:54 PM on August 26, 2005


gwint, what's your point? I mean besides displaying how above it all you are? Must be nice having a detached vantage point like that.
posted by jonmc at 7:59 PM on August 26, 2005


Okay, hopefully this goofy little flamewar is over.

Can someone actually explain why someone would think it's ironic (not just: THIS IS IRONIC HOW CAN YOU NOT SEEEEE?)/how it actually is ironic?

I don't think it's intentionally racist so much as posturing by people who think they are a lot more culturally aware than they actually are, and that therefore such behavior is "okay."
posted by scarymonsterrrr at 8:02 PM on August 26, 2005


The point is that you and klang posted only to hear your own self-rightous voices instead of trying to convince someone out of their ignorant viewpoint.
posted by gwint at 8:12 PM on August 26, 2005


scarymonsterrrr (hope that's enough r's), no i don't anyone actually CAN explain that. i mean, look at the quotes in the article (and in the promoter's bio): the best they can do is "dude, it's totally funny, and if you don't get it, then you don't understand humor."

and i do agree with you that much of the racism inherent in this is unintentional, but that doesn't make it any less offensive, just a little more pathetic. personally, i think the most interesting-- and appropriate-- quote is from the final link in my post. the one about actual minstrel shows:

"But scholars also argue that the minstrel show allowed whites to explore fantasies--of laziness, of sexual desire, of unstructured time--that middle class culture denied them."

This pretty much sums up EXACTLY what the people who organize and participate in these "Kill Whitie" parties seem to be doing, and, in truth, I was rather hoping to provoke a discussion about THAT, rather than a vitriolic flame war. Oh well.
posted by dersins at 8:13 PM on August 26, 2005


"But scholars also argue that the minstrel show allowed whites to explore fantasies--of laziness, of sexual desire, of unstructured time--that middle class culture denied them."

Those fantasies in and of themselves are based on racist suppositions.

The point is that you and klang posted only to hear your own self-rightous voices instead of trying to convince someone out of their ignorant viewpoint.

Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
posted by jonmc at 8:16 PM on August 26, 2005


Gwint: Perhaps I would have tried more convincing and less flaming if he hadn't called me a dolt right off the bat.
But maybe you're just trying to prove that you can come in and be a prick in one comment, instead of 30?
posted by klangklangston at 8:19 PM on August 26, 2005


jonmc, keep enjoying your self-appointed post as Metafilter's Defender of the Underclass. It's all about hearts and minds, right?

klang, he hit you with a spitball and you went nuclear. Enjoy your phyrric victory.
posted by gwint at 8:24 PM on August 26, 2005


Well what an interesting topic. And what a sad, cruel death this potentially promising thread has suffered.

I can clearly see my five dollars was well spent: finally, a topic that interests me comes up, and it's been dumbed-down into a pitiful flamewar. Huzzah.

Seriously. I mean, come on, guys. Race relations! Irony! Hipsterism! What fascinating topics! Let's get to it! Or perhaps this otherwise intelligent board is becoming a victim of the steady decline in discourse, as well. Oh, sigh.
posted by ford and the prefects at 8:29 PM on August 26, 2005


dersins, I agree with you about that quote and its relevance to the Kill Whitie stuff. Let's you and me have a discussion, shall we?

At risk of sounding crass--I hope I am not the only one who laughed at this:

"Casady was raised in Santa Barbara, Calif., but quickly notes her worldliness by listing the cities where she has lived along the trail to Brooklyn. A regular Kill Whitie partygoer, she tried the conventional (that is, non-hipster) hip-hop clubs but found the men 'really hard-core.'"

OMG BLACK PEOPLE ARE SO SCARY!!!!111!! If that doesn't prove the racism of at least some of the participants, I don't know what does.

Maybe this is just a trait of Southern dance clubs, but ours tend to be chock-full of people of all races (barely) dressed and "getting freaky"--someone remind me why hipsters need their own special place to do this (and why it needs to be tied to race)?

Yet another example of upper-middle-class white kids trying to be "urban" without compromising their whitewashed existence and exposing their utter lack of exposure to diversity in the progress. These people must be destroyed.
posted by scarymonsterrrr at 8:29 PM on August 26, 2005


Hey, what about me? Don't I get a snide rejoinder?

Sorry if I did not help control things. I did not mean to contribute to the ruin of dersins's thread. But Decani sure did.
posted by jenovus at 8:31 PM on August 26, 2005


scarymonsterrrr: that "really hard-core" quote cracked me up when I read it. Most of my five years in NYC was spent battling these types of kids: you know, quoting Huey Newtown and listened to Mos Def but utterly shocked that I could live in a "bad neighborhood" like Washington Heights.

For a true exercise in irony, I'd suggest visiting a party on the roof of a white kid's Bushwick warehouse loft and overhearing a conversation about who in the Civil Rights Movement was an "Uncle Tom."
posted by ford and the prefects at 8:34 PM on August 26, 2005


Please keep in mind that irony is not always voluntary, or noticed by the subject.
posted by signal at 8:39 PM on August 26, 2005


I'm trying to figure out if this is challenging culturefuck, like Lenny Bruce yelling "Niggerrrrs!" or whether it's just dumb. I'm really leaning toward "just dumb," here.

From the article, it seems like The Pumpsta and his crowd are basically trying to create a hip hop scene with training wheels-- a place where the pale and insular Williamsburg children can go to play with hip hop and pimp culture safely, without the risk of running into actual black people. So, yeah, Dersins, I would tend to agree with you that it is a fantasy space.

But I think it's a fantasy space in a second way as well-- it's a place where, immunized by irony, people can throw off the stress of trying to confront and manage their internal bigotry and just be blazingly, unrepentantly racist for a while. The fantasy in the preceding paragraph, to me, is idiotic but inoccuous. This second fantasy, it gives me the willies.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 8:43 PM on August 26, 2005


Huonnnh?
posted by nervousfritz at 8:46 PM on August 26, 2005


palmcorder_yajna:

i agree with you there, as well. a key quote from the main article is the bit about the promoter / dj seeing himself as "part of post-racial Generation Y ," which is just so fucking self-deluding i don't even know where to start.
posted by dersins at 8:49 PM on August 26, 2005


ford: I am currently enrolled at a private, 90% white university in New England. Every day is an exercise in irony (I am probably the poorest person there). Sitting through public policy discussions about universal pre-school is pretty hilarious.

Slightly-related-question: My experience in the North has mostly been utter shock at the sheer lack of race/class interaction--my roommates went to overwhelmingly white schools, my boyfriend lives in a town with a .4% black population. As someone from the South, this is utterly bizarre to me--I grew up in the suburbs, but my high school was still 40% black. Is the lack of minority presence in Northern suburbs status quo or have I just not seen a true representation? I do genuinely believe that kids growing up in all-white areas is what contributes to the "racism-by-way-of-ignorance" that I fear is increasing.
posted by scarymonsterrrr at 8:49 PM on August 26, 2005


scarymonsterrrr:

it is my observation, as someone who spent his teenage years in new england, that much of the north east is significantly more segregated than the south, especially in suburban / exurban areas.
posted by dersins at 8:52 PM on August 26, 2005


I'll apologize for my part in making this a clusterfuck. I've just had this discussion out so many fucking times that it becomes an exercize in frustration. Maybe I know how Paris feels now...
I don't think most white people realize how sensative cultural appropriation is to a lot of black people, especially with hip-hop.
But maybe that's just because I took a class called "Rap and African American Culture" taught by Melvin "Kill Whitey" Peters (his actual nickname). There is a real sense of ownership for a lot of black people with rap, and this dressing up in racially loaded signifiers under the rubric of "irony" is both self-deluding and fairly deeply (if unintentionally) insulting.
Oh, and Bamboozled is a great movie, and should make everyone who watches it feel pretty uncomfortable by way of a really intelligent and well-constructed argument. The only problem with it is that, yet again, Lee does seem to have a grudge against black women.
posted by klangklangston at 9:00 PM on August 26, 2005


I fear that suburban segregation + pop culture's promotion of generally unsavory black stereotypes will result in a spike in racism (although more ignorant than malicious) among generation y (particularly as we were all teenagers during the 90s gangsta rap explosion).
posted by scarymonsterrrr at 9:02 PM on August 26, 2005


Race relations! Irony! Hipsterism! What fascinating topics!

I think you forgot the sarcasm tag.

And for the record, this place has been going downhill since it opened. See also: Seth.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 9:06 PM on August 26, 2005


Soooo...is anyone going to address the post in here or am I missing the IRONY in all this poo flinging?
posted by spicynuts at 9:10 PM on August 26, 2005


For a man who likes his Chris Morris, Decani most certainly did not seem to grasp the point of his latest TV series.

Let's hear it for White privilege, ladies and gentlemen... White privilege. "Get it? Cause... we're, like, not black? But us acting all black is like, ironic? Cause we're not?"

I liked it better when they pretended to be from the 70s.
posted by Coda at 9:12 PM on August 26, 2005


Coda:

What is this Chris Morris you speak of? Oh, and I liked it better when they were wearing trucker hats and mocking "mullet" haircuts-- at least that was "just" classism instead of racism...
posted by dersins at 9:17 PM on August 26, 2005


By the way, I just discovered a fantastic post on minstrelsy from 2002. Who knew y2karl could wax so damn eloquent on something that has nothing to do with war and the Bush administration?

(Well, anyone who's been around here long enough, but still...)

A wealth of fascinating links from that one.
posted by dersins at 9:37 PM on August 26, 2005


Here's an odd thing. The party-goers are "mostly white" according to the Post article. And there are people of color in several of the photos. It would be interesting to knopw what these few people of African American ethnicity think of the Kill Whitie business.

At the risk of sounding like young Jedidiah Purdy, I think irony is an overused tool these days -- and often misused. To say one thing and mean the opposite and to do it in a way that makes it clear to most intelligent listeners that you do not mean what you are saying is not easy. It's best left to experienced pros, not dj's who just got the right to drink.
posted by Cassford at 9:44 PM on August 26, 2005


Chris Morris is a crazy British fucker what makes TV shows, like Brass Eye, Jam, and, apropos of this particular fartfest, Nathan Barley. All highly recommended.
posted by Coda at 10:18 PM on August 26, 2005


1) The first rule of hipster club is -- you make fun of people in hipster club.

2) The second rule of hipster club is -- you do not admit to being in hipster club.

3) If someone wears the wrong pants or is caught at a Clay Aiken concert, the hipster is over.

...

8) If this is your first night at hipster club, you have to Kill Whitie.
posted by VulcanMike at 10:32 PM on August 26, 2005


"There is a real sense of ownership for a lot of black people with rap" Yeah tell that to Rick Rubin. I'd respect his opinion on Hip Hop a lot more than some fucking college proffesor.

I wanted to hate these people, I really did, but when it comes down to it, I think they just want to have a good time. The reporter in the first link seems to have it out for hipsters and picked the stupidest quotes from the stupidest people at the party.

And If you look at the picture on the pumpsters web site there are actual black people at the party! But I guess this just makes them uncle toms, right?
posted by afu at 10:33 PM on August 26, 2005 [1 favorite]


Metafilter: it's a Gödelian event horizon!
posted by rdone at 10:39 PM on August 26, 2005


I'd really like it if people would stop referring to the boneheads that live in Williamsburg as 'hipsters'. There is absolutely nothing hip about their urban outfitterish/white stripes listening/ overpriced rent paying ways. I don't kow what exactly they are - conformists or sleazy trash maybe? - but let's stop calling them hipstrs.

And the boring assholes that go on and on and on about how lame hipsters are? Tell it to someone else, man. I'm as sick of hearing them yammer as I am of the subject of their tirades.
posted by item at 11:07 PM on August 26, 2005


Afu: Yeah, way to cite an opinion by Rubin. Linking to a wikipedia is not the same as supporting an argument.
Or are you saying that since there were some white people who were involved in hip hop that it wasn't a black cultural movement, and that a lot of young black people don't feel ownership? You trust whoever you'd like, signifyin' monkey.
And perhaps the black people there were misled into thinking they could actually kill some white folk. I'll wager that they didn't bring any fried chicken to the door. Either way, four black people in a sea of whites doesn't make for a compelling argument of diversity.
posted by klangklangston at 11:09 PM on August 26, 2005


item, i'd like to note for the record that i never referred to williamsburg residents as "hipsters." i believe the phrase i used was "unbelievable wankers."

there haven't been any actual hipsters in williamsburg since about 2002, and they were outnumbered by german tourists and marleting professionals even then...
posted by dersins at 11:14 PM on August 26, 2005


marketing professionals. marketing. dammit.
posted by dersins at 11:15 PM on August 26, 2005


klangklangston- I just can't stand cultural studies professor's that tell me how I should think about art. I probably should have linked to a quote by Russel Simmons. He's got a lot of interesting things to say about how outsiders have always been bringing new perspectives to hip hop and have been fundamental in letting it grow. I'm not denying that a lot of black people feel some ownership of Hip Hop, but that doesn't mean they have any right to tell white people what they can and cannot do with the music, (unless they suck).

So are the black people uncle toms or not? or maybe they just hate themselves?
posted by afu at 11:42 PM on August 26, 2005 [1 favorite]


Afu: Why would they be Uncle Toms or hate themselves? They're coming from a different context.
You can't stand cultural studies teachers telling you how you should feel about art? I can't stand people who dismiss cultural studies (what with its academic framework for evaluating ideas and research) and replace them with self-serving anecdotes.
Go ahead and quote Russel Simmons all you want. I'll fire back with Afrika Bambaata, KRS-One, the Last Poets, Chuck D and Cheryl Keyes (whose book "Rap Music and Street Consciousness" is in the top three, if not the, most important book on the history of rap). All of them are explicit in tracing the origins of rap and hip hop through the black experience, from griots through field songs, jazz and blues, to the advent of sound systems in the West Indies and the lineage of battle rhyming through signifying.
Despite the toss off feint of negation, the Kill Whitey nights aren't about killing whitey but enshrining whitey in an alternate cultural sphere, where young trusties get to enjoy the benefits of black street culture without the danger or discomfort associated in their minds with it. And while this happens all the time in America, it's rare that an event explicitly calls attention to this obvious and constructed racial divide. This is about letting mainstream white culture wrest control of hip hop's subculture away from those who created it, embracing segregation through symbolic acts like the fried chicken at the door, and passing it all off under the weak sister of irony.
This is as racist in the same way that even though Elvis may not himself have been racist, and while he recorded some fantastic sides, the context that he was presented in was overtly racist and charged.
To deny that because it smacks of cultural studies is to embrace white priveledge and willful ignorance.
posted by klangklangston at 12:02 AM on August 27, 2005



Quick question for the group:

Is it possible to create a joke that is based on a racial concept, without being racist?

I'm not trying to pull a fast one here; I'm actually interested in opinions. Can someone create a piece of humor (or humour, for us Canucks) that uses the context of a racial/cultural trait as the firing pin for the comedy, without being racist?
posted by Darkman at 12:24 AM on August 27, 2005


I'm not getting it. Not to say I'm disagreeing, just that I'm not getting it. Sure, the fried chicken part seems pretty goddamn racist, but I can't see what else is being seen as racism. Some explanation would be appreciated (note: I'm not looking for explanation about whether this is or is not ironic. I'm not looking for explanation about whether these kids are or are not jerks. I'm just curious what aspects besides the fried chicken are being seen as racist)

klangklangston : "That isn't a bad thing. What's that got to do with race? Once you can answer that, you'll understand why this is offensive."

I'm not following. It has nothing to do with race. Anyone can get freaky. So why is it when black people do it at a hip-hop club, that's cool, and when white people do the same, it's racist? Since when is getting freaky the private domain of blacks?

scarymonsterrrr : "OMG BLACK PEOPLE ARE SO SCARY!!!!111!! If that doesn't prove the racism of at least some of the participants, I don't know what does."

Probably something racist would, then. Not all black people listen to hip-hop. To go to a hip-hop club and be intimidated by the men is not proof of racism. Case in point: I have no issues with the Dutch, but I can see myself saying "I went to a gabber club in Amsterdam, but I found the men too intimidating." That is not a statement of xenophobia, despite the fact that clearly the men I'm talking about are probably largely Dutch.
posted by Bugbread at 12:38 AM on August 27, 2005


klangklangston : "This is about letting mainstream white culture wrest control of hip hop's subculture away from those who created it"

MTV, for the most part, a smattering of white and Japanese owned music labels, and a collection of magazines controls hip-hop subculture. These are not the folks who made hip-hop subculture. The wresting has been done; it is the past. Now it's just a bunch of white kids wresting control of it from a bunch of white company employees.

If I start a rock and roll band, I'm not wresting control of rock and roll from black culture. That was done before I was even born. And I don't see how I would be a racist for starting a rock and roll band.
posted by Bugbread at 12:43 AM on August 27, 2005


Is it possible to create a joke that is based on a racial concept, without being racist?

Certainly! In film, Putney Swope immediately comes to mind. Chappelle's Show does a fine job of it, as did comedians like Lenny Bruce. I think the key is shying away from imitation, and instead making the racist seem ridiculous (which it is). The problem with the "Kill Whitie" party seems to be that it does nothing to mock stereotypes that whites hold towards blacks, but only to reinforce them. Whether its creator and supporters see it as "ironic" is no matter: what I see is a bunch of Billsburg hipsters playing dress-up as MTV black folk, and using the veil of irony to assuage their middle-class guilt.

Race is the key issue in the past, present, and future of the United States. Those of us on the left can't make the mistake our M.O.R.-liberal friends have made, pretending that racism is either dead or irrelevant; and we certainly cannot become conservative ostriches, blissfully ignoring the tension that will always underpin our country. We have to attack racism head-on, and comedy can be a great tool in this. It requires tact, skill, and (most importantly) wit: all things which "Kill Whitie" lacks.
posted by ford and the prefects at 12:44 AM on August 27, 2005


Darkman, yes. It's certainly possible to tell a joke (or create another piece of humor) using ONE'S OWN racial / cultural / ethnic traits as its linchpin / punchline without said piece of humo(u)r being racist.

I suspect, however, that you are asking whether it's possible to do that with racial / cultural / ethnic traits that are NOT one's own.

And I don't have an answer for that. I suspect that the answer is "yes, it is possible to tell a racial joke that isn't racist," but the closest I can come to thinking of one is the "White people breathe like this / black people breathe like this" joke told by... crap, I can't remember who told that joke. Anyone?

(Brief break to google-- but no results. Alas.)

Either way, though, it is very delicate territory, best left to skilled professionals, rather than, as Cassford puts it so well, dj's who just got the right to drink.
posted by dersins at 12:48 AM on August 27, 2005


"I'm not following. It has nothing to do with race. Anyone can get freaky. So why is it when black people do it at a hip-hop club, that's cool, and when white people do the same, it's racist? Since when is getting freaky the private domain of blacks?"
It's not. So why call it "Kill Whitey"? OMG 'cuz they're white! You don't see how this reinforces "ironic" stereotyping the same way that Urban Outfitters reinforces "ironic" stereotyoing?

"MTV, for the most part, a smattering of white and Japanese owned music labels, and a collection of magazines controls hip-hop subculture."
Wrong. MTV and mainstream marketting (labels etc.) control the over-culture of hip hop. The subculture is still very much a black and urban thing.
Contrast the signifiers of pop success (even in an R&B realm) with the signifiers of subculture within hip hop. Aside from a few canny chimera (like Gwen Stefani), it's affability versus authenticity. Even mainstream hip hop still pays its semiotic paeans to the street. And that's very much a street rooted in black culture, no matter what you or Marshall Mathers says about it.
Even though the mass of consumption is done at the white suburban level, the mass of innovation is done by urban black people.
posted by klangklangston at 1:40 AM on August 27, 2005


I am outraged.
posted by Pretty_Generic at 2:19 AM on August 27, 2005


klangklangston : "You don't see how this reinforces 'ironic' stereotyping the same way that Urban Outfitters reinforces 'ironic' stereotyoing?"

No. Partly, because I'm trying to avoid getting involved in this whole "irony" issue, which seems like a red herring. I'm not asking so much if it is or isn't racist, but just "what parts of it are being seen as racist". I'm not sure why calling it "kill whitey" makes it racist. That's not disagreement, it's just that the expression "kill whitey" only seems racist when it's said by a non-white, in the same way that "nigger" is only racist when it's said by a non-black. A white guy calling a black guy "nigger" would seem racist to me. A black DJ making a party called "kill whitey" would seem racist to me. I don't see why a white guy making a party called "kill whitey" is seen as racst. The other part of why I don't see is that I don't know what Urban Outfitters is (though I assume it's a clothing brand?)

klangklangston : "Wrong. MTV and mainstream marketting (labels etc.) control the over-culture of hip hop. The subculture is still very much a black and urban thing. "

Good point. But, in which case, I don't see how this party is wresting control of the sub-culture away either. If anything, this party seems directed at the over-culture.
posted by Bugbread at 2:21 AM on August 27, 2005


This thread is spectacularly awful.
posted by 31d1 at 2:44 AM on August 27, 2005


There was an interesting show on PBS recently, and I totally forget the name--"American Innovation" or something like that. Long point short, Russel Simmons is now a millionaire precisely because he didn't think of hip-hop as a "black" or "ghetto" thing--he saw it as a potentially mainstream one. Enter the Beastie Boys.

Also, the rap music industry would have died out long ago if not for the white kids picking up their albums at Wal-Mart.

I don't think this is a challenge to rap/hip-hop culture's authenticity, by any means--at its core, rap is about hustling, and it pulled off the ultimate coup by mainstreaming itself for ever and ever amen.
posted by bardic at 3:39 AM on August 27, 2005


Was this show merely a tribute to those you've gentrified out of the neighborhood?

Yeah, because someone with a Polish or Dominican accent has more of a right to live in Williamsburg/Greenpoint than some kid with a midwest accent.

/bullshit
posted by crank at 6:07 AM on August 27, 2005


"Partly, because I'm trying to avoid getting involved in this whole "irony" issue, which seems like a red herring. I'm not asking so much if it is or isn't racist, but just "what parts of it are being seen as racist". I'm not sure why calling it "kill whitey" makes it racist. That's not disagreement, it's just that the expression "kill whitey" only seems racist when it's said by a non-white, in the same way that "nigger" is only racist when it's said by a non-black."
The reason why it's racist is because it's a bunch of white people emulating the negative stereotypes they ascribe to black people. And something that's important to remember for context is that because white people are the majority and the dominant power structure (and have a pretty wild history of using force to maintain that), that makes it more offensive than if a bunch of black folks had a Slave Huntin' party or what have you. The effect of the racism is amplified by the obliviousness of the young, rich and white crowd.
posted by klangklangston at 7:33 AM on August 27, 2005


And you're right about irony being a red herring, but it's one that's put forward by the participants as an excuse.
posted by klangklangston at 7:34 AM on August 27, 2005


Race is the key issue in the past, present, and future of the United States.

No, it's definitely important and a weird one to work out since we seem to clump in racially homogenous groups by default regardless of station in life, but I would posit the race issue is a distant second to the class divide in the US. Racial issues provide a nice distraction for the upper class to keep lower classes from truly uniting and asking for a levelling.
posted by yerfatma at 8:23 AM on August 27, 2005


I can't see how this type of show is much of a problem or a controversy.

When I first read about it, the first thing that came to mind is that this is the hip-hop equivalent of all those parody hair metal bands that seem to be mushrooming everywhere.

Take an over-the-top culture you grew up with in the '80s and then recreate it in an "ironic" way. Its all part of the cultural stew and open to parody, even if the person you're parodying is of a different race than yourself.

I have no problem with a all black band wearing spandex and mullet wigs and covering Dokken and showing their audience how silly white people in leather pants can be. I have no problem with white kids doing the same with elements of hip-hop.
posted by pandaharma at 8:31 AM on August 27, 2005


The reason why it's racist is because it's a bunch of white people emulating the negative stereotypes they ascribe to black people. And something that's important to remember for context is that because white people are the majority and the dominant power structure (and have a pretty wild history of using force to maintain that), that makes it more offensive than if a bunch of black folks had a Slave Huntin' party or what have you.

I don't believe for a minute that these kids ascribe to the negative stereotype of "Black people want to kill white people" just because they chose a stupid name for their party.
posted by 23skidoo at 8:36 AM on August 27, 2005


klangklangston : "The reason why it's racist is because it's a bunch of white people emulating the negative stereotypes they ascribe to black people."

Where do you get the "negative" part? It seems like a bunch of people emulating the positive stereotypes they ascribe to hip-hop (not necessarily "black people", any more than Living Color (the band, not the TV show) was emulating the negative stereotypes they ascribe to white people by being a metal band).
posted by Bugbread at 8:50 AM on August 27, 2005


bugbread: Where do you get the "negative" part?

The eating of large amounts of fried chicken is certainly seen as an insulting stereotype of black people, and that's widely known. It's not widely seen as a stereotype of hip-hop. Either the promoters of this event do not get that, in which case they're clueless, or they don't care, which makes them assholes. Either way, it doesn't make them look good.

Incidentally, the name "Kill Whitie" also doesn't conform so much to hip-hop stereotypes per se, as it does to late-60s, early-70s black-power nationalist stereotypes. It's "blackness" on several levels that's being parodied, not just hip-hop. Of course, they could be aware that it makes them look like idiots, which might be part of the point - not just performing blackness, but performing the role of clueless young white people performing blackness. That's where the irony comes in.

This kind of reminds me of the time I went to a ska show at Wetlands and a friend of the band (Inspecter 7) got up on stage and started leading the (mostly skinhead) crowd in Heil Hitler salutes. I didn't find it amusing, so I gave him the finger. Some of the fans apparently thought I was flipping off their favorite band, so they grabbed me and tried (unsuccessfully) to knee me in the face. Then we got pulled apart and they melted into the crowd. It probably didn't help that I had a ponytail at the time. That was my last physical fight to date. Anyway, they were all SHARPs, making fun of the way that mainstream society viewed them, and in an intellectual sense, I can get that, but if I ever saw it again, I think it would still piss me off at a visceral level.

This doesn't. Who knows why not.
posted by skoosh at 9:30 AM on August 27, 2005


Skoosh got it.
posted by klangklangston at 10:51 AM on August 27, 2005


thanks for this post, y'all. It's an interesting read for a student in the south.

I wanted to link to racetraitor, but y2karl beat me to that as well. But i can still link to one of my heroes, a poet and a cicero, for real. If you've a chance to see Chuck D speak, do it.
posted by eustatic at 11:55 AM on August 27, 2005


A regular Kill Whitie partygoer, she tried the conventional (that is, non-hipster) hip-hop clubs but found the men 'really hard-core.'"

OMG BLACK PEOPLE ARE SO SCARY!!!!111!! If that doesn't prove the racism of at least some of the participants, I don't know what does.


She didn't say that. I thought she was talking about the men being too agressive sexually. My few experiences at mainstream clubs in Toronto (which are mixed with several races, like the city is) made me feel exactly the same way - the men were too agressive. I preferred the gay/lesbian dance club, because there I could just have fun dancing. The hipster parties sound like they are more diverse in sexuality.

The reason why it's racist is because it's a bunch of white people emulating the negative stereotypes they ascribe to black people.

A couple of people have responded to this, but I just wanted to point out that the man who runs the parties has explicitly explained them - they are not about negative stereotypes of non-whites (though the chicken one is offensive because of the tradition behind it), the parties are about the idea that white people are too inhibited and have to cease being white (kill their inner whitey) in order to let loose. They are adopted a positive stereotype of non-whites. No less stereotyped, but definitely in the "noble savage" vein rather than the "uncivilized primitive".

Is this racist? I don't know. Most people consider racism to be denegrating another race, not raising it on a pedestel. Are exagerrated claims of native environmentalism racist? Are stereotypes of Europeans being more cultured offensive? Or maybe it is that this particular positive stereotype - the noble savage - is really just the flip side of the uncivilized primitive stereotype that has caused such hardship for blacks, in the old world as well as the new.

But it's also interesting that no one is discussing the inherent racism against whiteness - the idea that whiteness is something so bad it must be expunged. White priviledge is a real and significant phenomenon, but as much as I get angry at people who deny systemic racism, I get angry at people who just become equally racist against whiteness. It's a reality that some of us have very little pigment in our skin - and that doesn't make us inhibited, or not know how to dance, or incapable of understanding (some of us have experience as a racial minority). It does make us sun burn more often.

As for the prejudice against hipsters - well, as a nerd from Canada, I don't even really know what a hipster is. They really annoy jonmc, but he is a conservative type (in the sense of not really liking change).
posted by jb at 12:01 PM on August 27, 2005


Wikipedia on "hipster". I'm still confused, but apparently they like to hang around the Parkdale and College St neighbourhoods in Toronto, and they read alternative comics. I used to do all that when I was in Toronto. Maybe I was/am a hipster, without even knowing.
posted by jb at 12:09 PM on August 27, 2005


Skoosh wins.

I am so glad I don't live in Williamsburg anymore.
posted by maggiemaggie at 12:14 PM on August 27, 2005


Gee. White people re-appropriating black culture in a way that is simultaneously condescending and self-deprecating. This is new?

Next, you're going to say, "Kids these days are so disrespectful," and "What a shame it is that a man can make a better living on the dole then gainfully employed."

The only thing that has changed is the medium that we are using to complain about the same old sh*t.
posted by afroblanca at 2:17 PM on August 27, 2005


They really annoy jonmc, but he is a conservative type (in the sense of not really liking change).

They do really annoy me, but that's not the reason. It's their smug self-satisfaction that they are somehow "different," from the rest of the human race that bugs me.
posted by jonmc at 3:09 PM on August 27, 2005


It's their smug self-satisfaction that they are somehow "different," from the rest of the human race that bugs me.

How much actual interaction with "hipsters" is this opinion based on? I'll bet even a few conversations would cure this preconception. I would also be willing to bet that the average "hipster" mindset is so similar to yours that you would be absolutely shocked!

In a few years they'll be sitting in the neighborhood bar, drinking workingman's drinks, listening to journey and talking about those stupid kids doing whatever stupid kids do a few years from now, so other than some unfortunate tattoo choices - exactly the same.
posted by milovoo at 4:32 PM on August 27, 2005


Milovoo, your last paragraph perfectly describes the downtown Jersey City vibe of the past 2-3 years. Welcome to the future, in which 23-yr olds appropriate the culture of 32-yr olds! Right down to the Journey covers.
posted by Pyth at 5:21 PM on August 27, 2005


Let me speak here in praise of Williamsburg and its glory days.

I first moved to Williamsburg in 1990 (or perhaps 1991?) into a 3000 square foot loft off the Lorimer St stop -- still not hip even today. There I practiced with my band and had occasional semi-wild parties where we played and had live video projections and computer control of lights and sequencing. It never quite came together as well as it ought to have but it was very advanced for the time and was probably pretty entertaining or at least confusing from the point of the crowd.

There was a lot of acid around then, clean, cheap, medium strength. One tab would make you sparkly all night, four would be a strong trip, and at $2 a tab you could decide exactly what you wanted to do. I'd like to add here that in the years we lived there, we never had any trouble involving acid-takers. Precisely all the "overdoses" were the traditional alcohol overdosers. There were a couple of fractious people we didn't really know who we suspected might have been on cocaine (because they talked about it) who got politely asked to leave but nothing bad ever happened at the parties.

There had been a strong tradition of wild art parties in Williamsburg that had attracted me there -- there was a really hipster and as I recall rather cliquist group of people who'd thrown some exceptional parties like the Fly Trap, the Cat's Head, the last one being as I recall the Mustard Factory, and ran the venue the Lizard's Tail. There was also the Ship's Mast, which is still shuttered to this day -- where are John and Nora, I wonder?

The parties were in twenty to forty thousand square foot industrial spaces, with exceptionally high-quality art and not-so-memorable music. For example, at one show an artist had suspended a human wireframe form that could be manipulated by cords from below. A spotlight shone through the form and made a clear shadow on the floor a long way from the manipulator.

Anyone could manipulate it and of course everyone did. So there was a huge shadow capering over the place all night.

At the Mustard Factory, they opened the old silos that were filled with old mustard seed -- they were coming down anyway -- so you walked in a "sand" that was a mustard seed. I was on E (one of the few times) and I had come back from my mother's funeral so I was in a fey mood.

There was an installation in a silo. You lay with your back on a weight-press bench and then slid your head back into the silo to see. Overhead right at the top of the silo -- which was quite a long way -- was a very small red light. Behind your head -- that is to say, in the direction of the top of your head -- was a fan in front of a light with a man's shirt flapping in front of it. You couldn't see what it was really -- you could see a bit by craning your neck but it's really hard to see something that's behind the back of your head. And over it all was a loop of crazy laughter.

It was hard to take for more than a short time, particularly considering my state of mind, but I do really love this sort of thing. I talked to the artist and he told me that he had recorded Jim Jones on the radio a long time ago before Jonestown and that was his laughter!

Brrr.. ssshivers.

Best ever installation: We (Christy and I) were waiting outside in a line up to get into one -- I don't remember its name, it was at North 8th I think? -- and we heard this huge banging start up as if some machineshop had started going somewhat and everyone looked at each other... when we got in, an area had been cordoned off, full of metal junk, and anyone could apparently just go in there and use the junk to beat on the other junk. There wasn't any rule written anywhere -- people were just beating that trash all night. I took turns and it was very liberating. You didn't feel any need to listen to other people -- as a musician, I compulsively listen to other people when I play with them but I felt freed from having to do that. Each item has its own rhythm based on its size and your strength -- you're more interested in hammering out your aggression than any musical ideas. So it sounds great. Towards the end of the night, exhausted from too much sugar and not quite enough beer (as I remember, very long lines), we sat and listened to people beating on the metal for almost an hour -- amazing polyrhythms, ebb and flow, and almost egofree throughout.


I remember the music as always a disappointment, bands like "The Voluptuous Horror of Karen Black" (two naked front people dressed in blue with cardboard props manipulated by a troupe do heavy metal) which were fairly entertaining but not really musically stimulating.

Truth to tell, that condition continues -- really good music was a rarety at these parties.

(Recently, it's been pretty good in W'burg-- once a couple of years ago for example I went to an evening of "70s-style synthpop bands" in a basement somewhere here and was amazed that four out of five of these bands that I'd never heard of were not only entertaining but musically clever and cute -- one of them had all sorts of MIDI controllers build into strange props they had built -- another had a boy and girl matched off against each other.)

The one exceptional musical event from early Williamsburg I saw was the first time I saw Crash Worship, at a Williamsburg warehouse party. This was only the second time that I'd run into "that sort of thing," the other being the peerless Butthole Surfers.

"That sort of thing" means a show that transcends the usual "I am a person watching musicians perform on stage" and becomes "I am participating in a strange overwhlemingly sensate ritual that might destroy me". They went on late and by the standards of later shows it was even pretty tame but they turned off all the lights and there was a moment and then suddenly small firecrackers were going off all over in the audience and then they dragged out a lot of stuff and set it on fire and played these massive interlocked beats with three drummers standing over a small red light on stage and they turned on a strobe and then sprayed out water on a long, flat arc over the crowd and into your face -- you'd see it caught in the strobe for an appreciable instant before SMACK in the face with it, it's a peak moment for you if you like sensation!

It was almost not intended as a musical experience but just an attempt with many drums and a down-tuned bass and a massive strobe and two huge smoke machines and horns and microphones and an old strap on synth (a Moog Liberation) and fire and water and and all sorts of other things to make you lose your mind and jump around gloriously.



(btw, if you like this sort of thing, my extreme NY events calendar is here: http://ax.to -- things aren't entirely dead...)
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 5:38 PM on August 27, 2005 [1 favorite]


lupus_yonderboy wins.
posted by dersins at 5:52 PM on August 27, 2005


Good descriptions Lupus. There's still quite a few things like that (only a very few that I hear about in time to get to). A lot of the people here have the urge to build and sculpt and create with objects, light and computers, then show it off to their friends. A far cry from the caricature of Williamsburg that most people have, because they've seen pictures of someone going dancing in a sweatband and tube socks and a trucker's hat or heard stories of one lone idiot being an idiot. I haven't argued about it in a while because it really just doesn't matter much, but I just get so sick of people saying they know what it's like when they have no idea. Oh, well, that's just the way it is, I guess.
posted by milovoo at 6:12 PM on August 27, 2005


Correction: for naked people dressed in blue please read naked people in blue body paint.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 6:22 PM on August 27, 2005


Milovoo-- it was my experience (i moved away from brooklyn this spring) that there was almost nothing cool or interesting remaining in wburg-- it had all moved to greenpoint and bushwick.

well, all except the Oneida's giant music box, which was too damn big to move...

But other than that, all that was left in williamsburg proper were wankers, poseurs and tourists.

I mean, for chrissake, fucking sweetwater is a fucking BISTRO now...
posted by dersins at 7:06 PM on August 27, 2005


Okay, responses:

bugbread and jb:
In the pictures linked from the event, all the (white) men are being pretty sexually aggressive in their dancing (grinding, whatever)...why did these girls suddenly lose their fear? From what I see, these guys (and gals) are dancing as if not more sexually than people in "typical" hip-hop clubs...so what's the difference? To me, the race aspect seems most likely. Also, whether or not the party is more "sexually diverse" seems a moot point to me--there would still be a fair amount of straight men, and you wouldn't know their orientation until you asked.
posted by scarymonsterrrr at 7:14 PM on August 27, 2005


Lorimer St stop -- still not hip even today

Haven't been out there much lately, huh?

Anyway, I don't know how many people are revisiting, but I find the fried chicken thing funny--it's making fun of a sterotype that people have of black people. I don't think that these kids themselves hold that stereotype; I think they find it inane. But then again, I actually know hipsters who go to parties in Williamsburg (I bet most of those kids can't afford to live there anymore).

Also, it's really dumb to get on people's cases for gentrifying a neighborhood. People live in the most interesting and convenient neighborhood they can afford to live in. Yeah, it sucks that people get priced out of neighborhoods, but unless you go to the very top, the people doing the pricing out have themselves been priced out of somewhere else. Blaming one group because you don't like their style is just dumb. It's a systemic problem.
posted by dame at 7:48 PM on August 27, 2005


it was my experience that there was almost nothing cool or interesting remaining in wburg

Zaphod: ... lets go out and see. I'm hungry for a little action.
Arthur: In a cave?
Eddie: On brontitall??
Zaphod: Yeah, in a cave, wherever! You make your own action!


If you know where to look there's always fun, you may just have to network a bit or read up on the web to find it. I've had some of the best times ever recently in b'burg. (although I guess it may be more to the point to say - just slightly outside of Williamsburg proper - I'll agree that the old places just aren't the same, but many of the same folks are still there, doing the same sort of stuff) Have you considered that you just like to tell yourself it's not as cool since you moved?
posted by milovoo at 8:14 PM on August 27, 2005


skoosh : "The eating of large amounts of fried chicken is certainly seen as an insulting stereotype of black people, and that's widely known. It's not widely seen as a stereotype of hip-hop. Either the promoters of this event do not get that, in which case they're clueless, or they don't care, which makes them assholes. Either way, it doesn't make them look good. "

Sorry. I mentioned "besides the fried chicken part, which I understand" in several of my previous posts, so I started to omit it, thinking it was getting redundant. Apparently not. Yes, I understand that the fried chicken part is seen as racist, I was asking "what else"? So I gather the "kill whitie" reference to 70's black power is also racist (I'm not quite sure why, but I do appreciate the answer). What else?

scarymonsterrrr : "In the pictures linked from the event, all the (white) men are being pretty sexually aggressive in their dancing (grinding, whatever)...why did these girls suddenly lose their fear? From what I see, these guys (and gals) are dancing as if not more sexually than people in 'typical' hip-hop clubs...so what's the difference? To me, the race aspect seems most likely."

And to me, the culture aspect seems most likely. A bunch of black guys at a metal show throwing up the horns and banging their heads would not be an imitation of white people, but an imitation of metalheads. The fact that metal culture is originally a culture made by white people, and still largely dominated by white people, doesn't really factor in. In the same way, it seems to me that a bunch of white guys and white chicks getting the freak on at a hiphop club would not be an imitation of black people, but an imitation of hip-hop videos (or, if they're frat boys and sorority chicks, just doing what they always do).

Buuuuut, that said, I do thank you for the answer, because now I can finally get (whether I agree or not) what everyone is getting so upset about.
posted by Bugbread at 8:15 PM on August 27, 2005


milovoo, it stopped being cool at least a year before i moved...
posted by dersins at 8:18 PM on August 27, 2005


(and, for the record, i lived in brooklyn, but not in williamsburg...)
posted by dersins at 8:21 PM on August 27, 2005


fair enough, it's equally possible that my version of fun is just not considered "cool".
posted by milovoo at 8:37 PM on August 27, 2005


lame was the new cool, milvoo-- But now ignorance is the new cool. You see that in a lot of places, I think it's a form of escapism.
posted by cell divide at 9:15 PM on August 27, 2005


I think I might be getting kudos for being misunderstood. I didn't say that parodies of black nationalists are racist. (In fact, I think there's an ironic self-parody aspect of Bobby Seale's cookbook series that's freakin' hilarious.) Also, there is a connection between hip-hop and black nationalism, at least as early as Public Enemy and probably earlier (I'm not well-versed in hip-hop history). It's that specific phrase "Kill Whitie" and similar anti-white pseudo-Marxist race-revolutionary sentiments that don't really occur in hip-hop; their time came and went before hip-hop really blew up.

Also, I have the feeling that the last line in my previous comment has been ignored. That is, the "Kill Whitie" parties and associated PR material do not viscerally anger me, the same way the ironic Heil Hitler salutes at the ska show did. I have no explanation for this. I think dame gets it more than I do. Also, lupus_yonderboy is still the reigning champion of this thread. I humbly concede the crown.

You know what would make more sense than speculating about the nature and vibe of this event and its participants from afar? We need to have a NYC MeFi contingent go out to this event and do some field research (coed, multiethnic, including at least some members with extensive NYC-area club experience). We need first-hand reports from people who don't necessarily have an axe to grind and can speak from first-hand experience about what this party is really like.
posted by skoosh at 5:41 AM on August 28, 2005


"The fact that metal culture is originally a culture made by white people, and still largely dominated by white people, doesn't really factor in."
Yeah, but because metal comes from the dominant culture (white priveledge) metal isn't seen as representing white people, whereas rap really is seen as representing black people in a majority share of the media.
posted by klangklangston at 12:52 PM on August 28, 2005


That's right, klangklangston. To review:

The event is called "Kill Whitey," which reminds me of the mainstream reaction to Public Enemy's "By the Time I Get to Arizona" back in my late college days. "Oh, see, rappers don't want to just kill each other, they want to kill us white folks! I knew it!" As folks have said eloquently, the name ascribes a negative motivation toward "whites" because there is anger in some of the lyrics.

Second, the explanation that the little prick "Pumpsta" puts forth -- that they are trying to "kill the whiteness inside" -- means that they are ascribing a higher level of carnality to African Americans. That chestnut has been around since at least slavery days. This concept helped slave owners rationalize "breeding" of their strongest slaves in order to yield the most lucrative offspring. Men and women slaves who had no prior relationship were forced to copulate, often in view of the owner and his friends as entertainment.

The fact that the Kill Whitey are ostensibly impugning the sexual inhibitions of "whites" matters very little. They consider themselves inhibited compared to a racist perception of "black" sexuality.

In the end , this is not all that different from a "Scalp the Pale Face" party. Young people with no real experience of Native Americans dress up in caricaturish savage and squaw costumes, bang drums, chant on the dancefloor, get drunk on cheap liquor (as Injuns do), have a "sweat lodge" in the bathrooms, and smoke peace pipes. Instead of the Pumpsta, you'd have Chief NobleSavage. "We are too caught up in the rat race, " NobleSavage, would tell reporters. "Whites need to scalp away that always-logical mentality on top of their heads that keeps up from being calm and in touch with nature and truest selves. When asked about the racist imagery, attendees would claim it is ironic. Hey, they are putting down whites as up-tight and greedy, not Native Americans, defenders would say. They actually ascribe positive notions to Indians.

There are so many interesting things to do and see in his world; what a waste of time and energy it is to spend time acting out racist stereotypes.
posted by Cassford at 7:48 PM on August 28, 2005


The problem, from what I can see, is that most of those conclusions are drawn from the assumption of racism. That is "It's racist, because it does A, which, if viewed from the point of view of racism, is racist".

For example, "They consider themselves inhibited compared to a racist perception of "black" sexuality." Rephrased, you could say, "They consider themselves inhibited based on a racist perception of 'white' uptightness." Interpreted in way #1, it's racist against blacks. Interpreted in way #2, it's racist against whites. If you can come to two contradictory conclusions from the same initial data based on your own assumptions, it's probably safer not to make those assumptions in the first place. I'm not saying that they are not racist, but I can't find a whole lot of evidence that they are racist either. (Except, once again, the fried chicken part).

Cassford : "what a waste of time and energy it is to spend time acting out racist stereotypes."

Or inventing them via hypotheticals.
posted by Bugbread at 10:31 PM on August 28, 2005


Inventing → positing (after all, I'm not denying that the racism may be there, just that it seems some people are positing it with little if any supporting evidence)
posted by Bugbread at 11:07 PM on August 28, 2005


Bugbread, I usually find myself agreeing with you, but what part of Ha ha black people like fried chicken and malt liquor and are into grafitti and wear their pant REEEL LOW!!! (Poss. NSFW) do you think is NOT racist mockery?

Additionally, it is clear you are somewhat unfamiliar with the tradtition of the minstrel show and the racism inherent to it.
I would like to redirect your attention to y2karl's excellent post on the subject (which I mentioned upthread), and, in particular, this excellent quote from Frederick Douglass, that blackface minstrels are "filthy scum of white society, who have stolen from us a complexion denied to them by nature, in which to make money, and pander to the corrupt taste of their fellow white citizens..."

These "Kill Whitie" wankers may not be literally wearing blackface, but they might as well be...
posted by dersins at 11:56 PM on August 28, 2005


dersins : "what part of Ha ha black people like fried chicken and malt liquor and are into grafitti and wear their pant REEEL LOW!!! (Poss. NSFW) do you think is NOT racist mockery?"

Again, I'm not saying it isn't. But to answer your question: I find the fried chicken part to be racist, as it is clearly directed at blacks, not at hip-hop itself. I guess I find the malt liquor part racist (hard to tell, because I can't click that link from work right now. I didn't recall seeing any malt liquor before, so I apologize for overlooking it), because it is directed at blacks as a whole, not at hip-hop itself. As for the graffiti and pants-real-low, the part I disagree with is the assumption that the statement being made is "blacks are into graffiti and wear their pants real low". To me, it seems to be "folks who like hip-hop are into graffiti and wear their pants real low". I don't find making fun of hip-hop racist, I do find making fun of blacks racist.

I think a good deal of the issue here is that folks other than me are living in places where, for the most part, "hip-hop" = "black". I see people with low-slung pants, goofy gold chains, and cornrows all the damn time. They're all asian, because I live in Japan. Anybody you see with low-slung pants is 99% likely to be Japanese. Anybody you see spraypainting is 99% likely to be Japanese. Making fun of the ridiculous low-pants-waddle isn't making fun of Japanese, or making fun of blacks, but making fun of the ridiculous low-pants-waddle. Hip-hop may be strongly connected to black roots, but it is not itself blackness. Making fun of hip-hop is not making fun of blacks, it's making fun of hip-hop.

There are certain aspects of this that seem clearly aimed at blacks (fried chicken and malt liquor). I only knew of the first one at the start. I can totally understand folks finding these racist; I don't think we lack any information needed to find them to be racist. The other things people are calling racist (sexualized dancing, low-slung pants, graffiti, etc.) don't strike me as making fun of blacks/insulting blacks/using black stereotypes/etc., but making fun of hip-hop.

Regarding y2karl's post, yes, it is good, but I don't know if I agree with your central tenet that these people are doing what the minstrels did. That is, the minstrels used racial stereotypes ("black people talk like this"). From what I can tell (again, I haven't been to a Kill Whitey party, so I'm going off minimal information, and am not so much disagreeing as saying that I don't have enough info to state authoritatively), it doesn't seem that Kill Whitey is using racial stereotypes so much as genre stereotypes ("hip-hop folks dress like this"). Which is why I bring up metal (or perhaps I should have brought up prog or country, as it's even statistically white): someone making fun of country isn't seen as making fun of white people. Someone like Chris Rock or Eddie Murphy (back when he was funny) clearly was.

I dunno, maybe I'm just less fond of synechdoche than the other folks in the thread.
posted by Bugbread at 12:28 AM on August 29, 2005


but how do you feel about metonymy?
posted by dersins at 12:54 AM on August 29, 2005


I'm not sure I've even used metonymy on the net (in person, however, I've referred to people as "dicks", which I think counts).
posted by Bugbread at 2:19 AM on August 29, 2005


I've referred to people as "dicks"

wouldn't that be synecdoche?
posted by dersins at 2:52 AM on August 29, 2005


Oops, you're right! Damn, can't think of any examples of metonymy in my day-to-day life...
posted by Bugbread at 3:07 AM on August 29, 2005


What about monotony?
posted by yerfatma at 10:37 AM on August 29, 2005


yerfatma : "What about monotony?"

I teach classes about it at the community college.
posted by Bugbread at 4:05 PM on August 29, 2005


bugbread, I guess you have a point, but it seems to be beside the main point. Saying that well, yes, they are using racist thinking when they ask people to bring fried chicken and yes they are racist when they carry forties of malt around the club, but no, they are just having good clean fun with the references to boot-ay and so on is just odd top me. The thing is called "Kill Whitey" -- it evokes race right off the bat. Race is central to the whole event.

If it were a bunch of young bourgeouis Japanese men and women dressed up and acting like what they think sangokujin are like....
posted by Cassford at 4:22 AM on August 30, 2005


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