Comments on: whew.

whew.

delmoi — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 10:48:52 -0800

Convoy on the go. Most of you probably already know this, but a massive convoy of food in and people out of downtown New Orleans is underway. On CNN they have video from helicopters, showing lines of hundreds of busses. This is a huge relief.

By: Rothko

Rothko — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 10:57:12 -0800

The commanding general in charge of the relief effort in New Orleans was directing the operation from a street corner. He told the troops, part of a deployment of 1,000 members of the National Guard, to make sure they kept their guns down... "A few moments ago, he stopped a truck full of National Guard Troops ... and said, 'Point your weapons down, this is not Iraq,'" said CNN's Barbara Starr who is traveling with the three-star general. The irony of this would be funny, if it wasn't so incredibly tragic.

By: 517

517 — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 10:57:41 -0800

Pictures, get you pictures here. Rescued by Prz. Bush. I wouldn't put it beneath him to hold off relief until he could get there for the photo op.

By: chandy72

chandy72 — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 10:58:51 -0800

May I just say that watching these videos, coupled with the mayor's endorsement of Gen. Honore, gave me a physical sense of relief coupled with the notion of a cautious "Day late, hopefully not a single dollar short."

By: docgonzo

docgonzo — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 10:59:32 -0800

Is the three-star general the same fellow that the mayor ref'd in his now famous interview? Honoré or something?

By: chandy72

chandy72 — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 10:59:34 -0800

also, my cynical side agrees completely with 517.

By: docgonzo

docgonzo — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 10:59:51 -0800

Answered on preview. Thanks!

By: eriko

eriko — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:10:20 -0800

Yeah, but at least they are there, and there's somebody acting like they are in charge. The damage is done, done too much, done too long -- but at least now, for a few thousand people, there's hope.

By: 517

517 — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:11:31 -0800

Nope, I would not at all. CNN's front page...

By: argybarg

argybarg — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:12:29 -0800

Notice the simultaneous images coming out of Bush's emergency mission to hug aggrieved victims and look all sad for the camera. Phew! Nick of time. This sonofabitch is going to get off scott free, again, for not just poor planning but indifference to planning. He's an incompetent, but his image handlers have just squeezed him through the tunnel. My keyboard can't type enough obscenities to describe this administration.

By: SirOmega

SirOmega — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:14:00 -0800

About God Damn time. Lets hope that no one else will die from dehydration or starvation or lack of medicine from this point forward. Also, independently verified by the interdictor, with pics as well.

By: dios

dios — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:14:38 -0800

Wow. Just wow. One would think that the response would be: "Great" or "Thank god" or "Yay!" But then I see the reaction here. Metafilter has shown me that there are people out there who have viewed this entire tragedy as a political issue and not through the lense of humanism. There is a time to be political and discuss it, and that time is usually when the situation ceases to be critical. That you can view a tragedy of this proportion and look first how to blame someone politically and not how utterly sad it is and what you can do to help.... or that you can view good news that people are being taken out and that help is arriving and try to discredit the help, downplay the good, invoke extreme cynicism and avoid showing satisfaction with the news....it really says a lot about the character of some of you. The politicizing attitude that was rightfully lambasted in the days 9/11 has occurred in this tragedy from day one. Which shows me that a lot of you didn't appreciate this to be a tragedy it in fact is. Maybe its because it doesn't effect you directly or for whatever reason, but Metafilter should be embarassed---I know that I am.

By: sonofsamiam

sonofsamiam — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:15:56 -0800

Tell yourself whatever makes you feel comfortable, sophist.

By: Rothko

Rothko — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:17:14 -0800

Dios, I donated a 20-gallon garbage bag filled with good clothes, along with some money. Go stuff your false outrage up your rear.

By: 517

517 — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:18:12 -0800

Dios: I see your point, but if not now when? After they have spun it?

By: jb

jb — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:19:53 -0800

. a moment for thanks.

By: MrMoonPie

MrMoonPie — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:20:49 -0800

517, they'll wait a few months, then say there's no use in dwelling on the past, that it's time to move forward, that hindsight is 20/20, blah blah blah. sonofsamiam is dead-on in his assesment of dios--sophistry, pure and simple.

By: aramaic

aramaic — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:21:28 -0800

Here's your "Great!" from me: Yay! ...I'll just add "It's about fucking time you pack of incompetent bastards!" Whoops, guess I veered a little close to criticizing Dear Leader there, didn't I?

By: bshort

bshort — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:21:53 -0800

dios: We're making this a political issue? Bush made this a political issue by not doing anything about Katrina for almost an entire week. This is Bush's responsibility and I find your mock outrage offensive.

By: stbalbach

stbalbach — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:22:13 -0800

2 million gallons of oil found leaking into the Gulf near Venice LA.

By: amberglow

amberglow — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:22:19 -0800

Show me pictures of the people getting the food (estimates are of 50,000 plus in the Superdome and Convention Center alone). And shut the fuck up, dios, until you actually see pictures of people getting the food without being shot at. This is how many days too late? How many are already dead? Your embarrassment is misdirected---it's our Government who has failed, not those of us here furious that aid is so very late and fellow Americans are dying.

By: fenriq

fenriq — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:22:57 -0800

Dios, thanks, you finally got me pissed off enough to install GreaseMonkey and the kill file so I'll never have to read another one of your trollish comments. People have every right to be pissed off at the response, its been five days since the hurricane hit. We've got six bags of clothes ready to be donated and I'm sure we'll find some more to donate. Rothko, who did you donate your stuff through?

By: sonofsamiam

sonofsamiam — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:22:59 -0800

I am worried about what will happen if that oil catches fire.

By: PinkStainlessTail

PinkStainlessTail — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:23:08 -0800

Wow. Just wow. Balls. Just balls. Your whole post. Do you get an NEA grant for this performative shit?

By: Chrischris

Chrischris — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:23:25 -0800

Ahh... The righteous right wing returns. Thanks, Dios, all of us over here reading the appalling news of infants and old folks dying in the streets for the last three days are glad you (and a large convoy, and--conveniently and coincidentally enough-- your man GW) could finally make it (all at the same time, even!). What's that? We should be ashamed of ourselves? Well, ok... We'll see at the next photo-op, then...

By: bshort

bshort — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:23:50 -0800

Bush might have more credibility if he could wipe that goddamn smirk off his face. There's nothing funny about Katrina and he needs to act like a goddamn president.

By: icontemplate

icontemplate — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:24:01 -0800

Better than nothing. By the way, I thought I was fairly familiar with military vehicles - what's the name of those trucks they're using?

By: delmoi

delmoi — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:24:03 -0800

Dios: The fundamental purpose of government is to protect the people. It failed, miserably. Blame needs to rest not only on bush's hand, but on the governor and the mayor as well. But bush, and FEMA, the federal government should have been the major players in this. And it should have been done immediately after the hurricane, not 3 or 4 days later, after people is dying in the streets for want of food and potable water and medical care. People are still dying. CNN had an interview with a doctor, who mentioned two people died being evacuated from a hospital just a bit ago. People are incredibly angry that it took so long. Angry at the government, who's responsibility, was do its job. How can that not be political? I was relived that there was an evacuation under way, that's why I posted this. IF you think all this gnashing is just cynical political opportunism then you can go fuck yourself.

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:25:35 -0800

That you can view a tragedy of this proportion and look first how to blame someone politically this isn't about politics ... if john kerry had been elected president and made such a mess of things through inaction, i'd be screaming for his head too the president had a job to do and didn't do it in time ... no excuses ... no arguments it's way past time the troops should have showed up

By: ruthsarian

ruthsarian — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:26:33 -0800

So there's a bunch of food and aid heading into New Orleans. There's a bunch of survivors/refugees heading out of New Orleans. Any chance that the food and aid will go to waste since everyone is now heading to Texas?

By: delmoi

delmoi — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:26:34 -0800

On post: Dios did a good job of derailing this thread.

By: doctor_negative

doctor_negative — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:26:48 -0800

Gosh dios, it warms my heart to know there are still at least a few starry-eyed Bush apologists out there. The problem with waiting till a "proper time" to discuss things is that some folks seem to forget the past so quickly it'll make your head spin. So the time to talk about it is either now or never. If the prevention and relief hadn't been handled so poorly we wouldn't be here talking about it.

By: amberglow

amberglow — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:26:50 -0800

By: ericb

ericb — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:27:13 -0800

Is the federal government doing too much? Not enough? Or just the right amount to help the victims of Hurricane Katrina?

Not enough: 68% | Right amount: 26%

Thinking just about the President of the United States ... Do you approve or disapprove of President Bush's response to Hurricane Katrina?

Approve: 40% | Disapprove: 53%

SurveyUSA | 9/2/05

By: delmoi

delmoi — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:27:23 -0800

So there's a bunch of food and aid heading into New Orleans. There's a bunch of survivors/refugees heading out of New Orleans. Maybe some will be wasted in the end, but those people need food and water immediately.

By: bshort

bshort — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:27:49 -0800

Bush knew enough about the storm to declare the area a disaster area even before the storm hit, but he didn't know the levees might break? He didn't direct the federal government to get its shit together to get aid to the communities that would be affected, and even days later he's just now getting around to mobilizing troops and aid workers. Bush has turned this country into a third-world country. Dios - what exactly would Bush have to do to make you realize he's incompetent?

By: Rothko

Rothko — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:29:24 -0800

Rothko, who did you donate your stuff through? Philly's Red Cross office is on 23rd and Chestnut. They take in clothing.

By: delmoi

delmoi — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:30:12 -0800

517: I saw that video on CNN earlier today. Bush hugging these two black girls, like teenagers. They were crying, they said the only clothes they had were those on their backs, etc. Bush hugged them, comforted them. You could hear the click of the cameras as he did it. It was a photo-op, and it bothered me a little bit. But i'm happy that people are finaly getting releif. That was in Biloxi Miss, also.

By: selfnoise

selfnoise — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:31:34 -0800

FYI: If you have items of value that are easier to part with than money, Ebay is running charity auctions where the proceeds go to Disaster Relief (through the United Way, I think).

By: agregoli

agregoli — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:32:01 -0800

It's more important for dios to attack us instead of the people responsible for this failure which is resulting in deaths--more every minute. Nice. Your concern for the many many thousands of starving people is showing in spades. Just wanted to see that again. Dios, shut up. Your criticism of the many passionate and empathetic people on this board helps nothing.

By: jalexei

jalexei — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:32:14 -0800

Sorry dios - I was out at lunch and caught footage of the convoy on a tv, and found myself literally shedding tears of joy (after shedding tears and losing my sh*t earlier in the day reading about dying babies in the University Hospital neo-natal ICU). We don't "appreciate" the seriousness of this?! Are you f*cking insane!? Nothing changes the colossal f*ck ups that have played a direct role in this disaster, nor does anything make it possible to separate the politics so we can all talk about it "later". Doesn't mean a Democratic administration would've done any better, but why do I have have no trouble seeing you screaming for heads if Kerry was running this boondoggle? Take your self-righteous schtick somewhere else.

By: fenriq

fenriq — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:32:32 -0800

Rothko, thanks, its a little far for me but I'll find a local Red Cross to donate our stuff to.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:35:22 -0800

(and a large convoy, and--conveniently and coincidentally enough-- your man GW) could finally make it (all at the same time even!). Conspiracy proposal: From interdictor's blog, the officials in New Orleans actually on the ground were told that this convoy would arrive today, but it was strangely behind schedule. Since the president and the convoy arrived at the same exact time (making it a great PR stop, coincidentally), do we have any reason to believe the convoy wasn't asked to hold back and wait for the president to catch up? Is there any exact information on the routes, the schedules, and the times of departure/arrival that could either dissuade me from leaning towards this theory or building support for it?

By: milovoo

milovoo — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:41:17 -0800

That you can view a tragedy of this proportion and look first how to blame someone politically and not how utterly sad it is and what you can do to help dios, It's getting so that when I read a stupid post, I can be sure that your name will be at the bottom. I've done some volunteer work already, and am signed up for a lot more, so I already know what I can do to help, and I'm doing it. Surprisingly enough, I can handle doing that and thinking critically at the same time. What you seem to want is for everyone to put their heads in the sand for a few weeks until the president can get his story fabricated with a better spin. Well, too bad for you. I guess it will be interesting to see how long all the Bush apologists will continue to hold on their fantasy world just out of spite.

By: Pollomacho

Pollomacho — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:42:13 -0800

Along with ecribs post: CNN, non-scientific poll: Has President Bush done enough to help the victims of Hurricane Katrina? Yes - 21% - 6880 votes No - 79% - 25682 votes as of 2:41 PM EST

By: delmoi

delmoi — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:42:18 -0800

odinsdream: It dosn't seem unresonable that there would be delays. The busses had to navigate through 2-3 feet of water without getting stuck, for example. I don't think we need to be worrying about conspiracy theories. Let's hope that people can get evaccuated as quick as possible and that after that, we can worry about the political aftermath.

By: TedW

TedW — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:43:10 -0800

It seems like this is turning into a true national effort; we just got the following email at work: September 2, 2005 TO: MIF FROM: Don Snell RE: Hurricane Katrina Recovery Medical Efforts Augusta and Atlanta are Georgia’s two Federal Coordinating Centers of the National Disaster Medical System. As such, these two cities will receive refugees from the areas devastated by Hurricane Katrina. Over the past 24 hours, Atlanta has received 10 planeloads of 100 to 150 refugees each. We do not know how many of those refugees are in need of medical attention, nor do we know the severity of their injuries or illnesses. We expect Atlanta will soon become saturated, making it necessary to divert refugees to the Augusta area. In the event of a diversion, our DMAT emergency personnel will be deployed to Bush Field to receive and triage incoming refugees. After applying immediate treatment as appropriate, they will distribute those in need of medical attention to Augusta’s area hospitals, including MCG Health System. We do not know how many patients our health system is likely to get, what type of patients they will be and when they are likely to arrive. Therefore, we ask that all hired and leased employees remain available to work over the holiday weekend if called on to do so. This applies even if they are not officially on call and not already scheduled to work. We will keep you updated as additional information becomes available. Thank you in advance for sacrificing your free time to help our fellow Americans. We are about 600 miles from NO and hardly in the first tier of areas to get casualties.

By: Civil_Disobedient

Civil_Disobedient — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:43:17 -0800

You're such a fucking putz, dios. Yay. Finally.

By: rzklkng

rzklkng — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:45:00 -0800

Wow, BushCo supporters stand silent for three days while their man plays some golf, strums a six strink, Condi buys some new shoes, and Rummy goes on Letterman (tonight, right?) and you sepnd your righteous indignation on US for pointing out that:

Bush didn't know the levees would break, but Mr. Bill did

This FEMA guy's an uckfup from way back (plus he's well on the way to being this guy)

They disaster-gamed this exact scenario for Hurricane Pam

I would love to know who consulted for Oil Storm (FX link) from FEMA

For those of you in the reality-based community, Think Progress and Sploid seem to be the places to go.

By: Wallzatcha

Wallzatcha — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:48:59 -0800

More blame should be on the Governor of Louisiana. She is in the middle of the situation from the beginning. Was she asking for FEMA and federal assistance to be ready from the start?

By: keswick

keswick — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:51:18 -0800

YES.

By: phearlez

phearlez — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:54:52 -0800

What, did you just get here? Almost every Katrina thread from the last three days has had links and pastes of the requests to FEMA and the near 1/10th grants they got in return. Take a nanosecond and go look.

By: mr.marx

mr.marx — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 11:57:49 -0800

In other news, Sweden is in preparations of sending a Hercules airplane with water purifyers and staff on Sunday, but they still have no "Go" from the US gov. And dios: Swallow a cup of shut the fuck up along with that bucket of cocks you're chocking on, will you? Thanks.

By: ericb

ericb — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:00:22 -0800

President Bush Diverts Critical Resources For Photo-Op .

By: amberglow

amberglow — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:00:41 -0800

Was she asking for FEMA and federal assistance to be ready from the start? President Bush declared a state of emergency in Louisiana on Saturday because of the approach of Hurricane Katrina and his spokesman urged residents along the coast to heed authorities' advice to evacuate. ... Officials from the Federal Emergency Management Agency continue to coordinate with state authorities in Florida, Mississippi, Louisiana and Alabama, and have prepositioned supplies in areas expected to be affected, he said. ...

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:10:05 -0800

"Wow, BushCo supporters stand silent for three days while...(they all go/stay on vacation" Not to apologise for dios (or 2nd guess him) in any way, but I think the opposition line in this thread should go something like this: how can you kick Bush’s ass for doing nothing, not showing leadership, when, if he does, it’s presumed it’s only a photo op? I’m glad to see this. I readily concede it could have - SHOULD have - been done earlier, better, stronger, and it speaks volumes about the character of those in our administration who, with a tragedy in the making, are out “recreatin’” (to quote Bush the Greater or ‘Bush the Elder’ for you Greekophiles). It’s debatable whether Rice is an absolute necessity, but it looks bad to be out gedunking when people’s lives are in peril. If it looks bad for them to recreate - does it not look good for them to be seen on scene? I do believe it’s unfair, once their asses are in gear, to say they are motivated purely by self-interest. ....It’s certainly understandable, but again unfair, once the relief is heading down the pike. I’m happy to kick Bush in the ass for not hitting dirt early on, getting his hands dirty (metaphorically of course) but that’s past. He’s there. He’s involved. It’s what he should be doing. (all this apart from previous and in many cases valid criticism of preparations, priority or resources, Iraq, etc. etc. and others’ culpability of course.)

By: ericb

ericb — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:11:36 -0800

US Senator: Death toll in Louisiana could be above 10,000.

By: b_thinky

b_thinky — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:11:51 -0800

(before Bush shows up) Metafilter: Where the fuck is Bush? (after he shows up) Metafilter: Fucking photo-op!

By: ericb

ericb — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:13:08 -0800

Katrina May Cut Payrolls by 500,000 This Month.

By: ericb

ericb — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:14:41 -0800

Democrats and Others Criticize White House's Response to Disaster.

By: Rothko

Rothko — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:15:10 -0800

how can you kick Bush’s ass for doing nothing, not showing leadership, when, if he does, it’s presumed it’s only a photo op? There are (at least) two SAR helicopters sitting unused behind Bush while he puts on a serious face for the cameras. Those helicopters could be bringing supplies and airlifting victims out of the region. That they aren't in the air is just one more reminder of how this clown is totally fucking useless.

By: Floydd

Floydd — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:15:51 -0800

before Bush shows up) Metafilter: Where the fuck is Bush? (after he shows up) FIVE DAYS LATER Metafilter: Fucking photo-op! posted by b_thinky

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:17:35 -0800

"President Bush Diverts Critical Resources For Photo-Op ." I'd stand corrected if that wasn't such a partisan site. That and - c'mon, look at the heilo there. rush - if you're reading this, feel free to chime in as to what kind of chopper that is. (as far as I know, slicks are better for rescue ops, carrying people, cargo, etc.) Not to be an asshole...(it's usually too late when you say that) but that kind of proves the political exploitation I think was alluded to. ...on the other hand, while I see some criticism from republicans, who else is going to critique his work?

By: ericb

ericb — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:17:58 -0800

Planning, Response Are Faulted

"Experts said one of the major problems with the response effort was an ineffective evacuation that began just 24 hours before the storm hit. Though models for such a storm accurately portrayed the circumstances that arose -- a levee breach, flooding, stagnant water, inaccessible portions of the city and large numbers of people unable to leave -- more than 100,000 people remained when the storm hit. Some people were simply too poor to pick up their lives, and others unwisely figured they could ride out the hurricane in their homes because they had done so in the past. But Rep William J. Jefferson (D-La.) said there was a failure to think about a 'holistic approach to the evacuation effort.' Jack Harrald, director of the Institute for Crisis, Disaster and Risk Management at George Washington University, said researchers and academics have for years been studying New Orleans because of its particular vulnerabilities to disaster. In the Natural Hazards Observer in Nov. 2004, Shirley Laska, director of the Center for Hazards Assessment, Response and Technology at the University of New Orleans, predicted a direct hit could produce 'conditions never before experienced in a North American disaster' and said evacuation problems would be severe."

By: Pollomacho

Pollomacho — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:19:08 -0800

You're exactly right Floydd, where was he 5 days ago?

By: LeeJay

LeeJay — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:21:14 -0800

I was so happy seeing those vehicles rolling into New Orleans. There are people who just this morning were probably wondering if they could make it through another night alone and hot and thirsty and afraid. Thankfully, more than a few of them will get a hot bath and a hot meal and, hopefully, all the cold water they can drink.

By: davidmsc

davidmsc — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:22:50 -0800

Jeez...President Bush is damned by the wingnuts if he shows up early, and damned if he shows up late. Asses. He's also damned because a few helicopters were behind him -- newsflash, binky, resources are "diverted" ANY TIME the President travels ANY WHERE for ANY REASON. He doesn't have much say in the matter -- the media, the Secret Service, the military, and a host of others are doing a million things behind the scenes whenever POTUS is on the move -- they have to, it's their job.

By: Armen Tanzarian

Armen Tanzarian — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:23:03 -0800

(before Bush shows up) Metafilter: Where the fuck is Bush? (after he shows up) Metafilter: Fucking photo-op! Both are perfectly valid responses, in my opinion. When Bush didn't do diddly-poo for three days, I found myself thinking, "Where the fuck is Bush?" When he does finally arrive in Mississippi, he has a very carefully planned short walk through the disaster, followed by a smerking, half-assed, empty statement filled presser. This is all capped off with a cute little kiss to the top of the head of someone that has lost everything, complete with the audio of a thousand cameras flashing. Fucking photo-op indeed!

By: Rothko

Rothko — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:25:05 -0800

President Bush is damned by the wingnuts if he shows up early, and damned if he shows up late. Davidmsc, does this mean I get to call my boss a "wingnut" if I show up late to work?

By: Postroad

Postroad — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:25:52 -0800

There seems something of a convention that says one not directly involved but watching, thinking, observing is to suspend all judgement till someone at some time in some place says Ok, now you can be critical, make judgments, get angry that things have not been done in a better fashion. I imagine it is the same sort of thing that says we are not to speak ill of the dead, not boast if we win and someone else loses etc. Perhaps, just perhaps, enough instant outrage expressed when it ought to be might get those in charge, involved to do things that ought to be done and in a better manner. Is is permissible for those hungry, thirsty, homeless, ill, seriously depressed to speak up and curse, bewail, scream for help? Please advise so I can act properly

By: lodurr

lodurr — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:26:33 -0800

pyramid_termite: the president had a job to do and didn't do it in time Here's the thing that bothers me: The president shouldn't have had to do anything. FEMA and the National Guard should have been on the case from day minus-three or so, but they weren't. Why? Could it possibly be because FEMA is now a stepchild buried in the DHS bureaucracy? It used to be that when FEMA said "Boo!", people jumped. Not because they were scared of FEMA, but because they understood that at that place and at that time (to paraphrase an old soldier), they were in charge. No more. People sat around waiting for orders. Well, FEMA and the Guard did. The Coast Guard and private citizens were all out there in force; hell, the effing Navy moved unilaterally to reposition boats. But everyone else .... waited. Could this be a management problem? Nah....

By: LeeJay

LeeJay — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:26:48 -0800

Also, not to break up the snark, and at the risk of revealing myself to be an even bigger melodramatic sap, I would love to just stand at the evacuation centers and give every single person who gets off of those buses a hug. OK, I'm going to go back to the Nagin thread so I can get sour and bitter again.

By: scody

scody — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:26:57 -0800

Re ericb's link above: you Bush supporters who think you're obliged to Stand By Your Man no matter what may find this interesting: "[Republican US Senator David] Vitter, speaking to reporters at the emergency response center in Baton Rouge, also said he gave the federal government a grade 'F' for its response to the disaster so far." Wow! You can be a Republican AND criticize the president! Ever thought of that, DIOS, et. al.? Huh?

By: phearlez

phearlez — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:27:47 -0800

I think we're all well aware that "Presidential Movement" (as we call it when Reagan National gets told to pause) has an impact on resources and mobility and I do think the reactions have been over the top about the choppers behind him in the shot. However I think it's also reasonable that the person at the center of that maelstrom and his immediate handlers take a little responsibility and try to not let their organized chaos get in the way of the real work or divert needed resources from the job at hand. In other words, if you didn't feel like you needed to put down the mai-tai a few days early then maybe you could do your current preening out of the way of the real work? KTNXBYE.

By: bshort

bshort — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:28:11 -0800

We didn't care whether Bush actually went to NOLA, we cared about whether he sent help, which he didn't. Pay attention, asshat.

By: fungible

fungible — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:28:58 -0800

is damned by the wingnuts Get your slurs straight! We're "moonbats."

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:29:05 -0800

"That they aren't in the air is just one more reminder of how this clown is totally fucking useless." Not to belabor the point, but I'm not getting that. Or rather, it seems like an extrapolation. Perhaps they're refueling. Perhaps they're being serviced. Choppers are tricky bastards. I have no idea. But perhaps he did set them up just to look macho. I don't see the flight suit, but it has happened before, so I concede the possiblity. But again, you either want him there or not. I'm in no way letting him slide on the other stuff. Just pointing out the general theme - he sucks because he's not there, then when he is there, he sucks for being there - divorced from other considerations naturally. *tap tap tap* is this thing on? Folks reading those qualifiers? He's helping because he's the officeholder, not because he's G.W. Bush. Clear? A monkey who represented the office of President would bring gravitas with him. It's why people get put out of kilter about flag burning. It's the symbolism. He's the President. He should be there. He is. again - all this divorced from the other considerations.

By: peacay

peacay — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:32:33 -0800

I'm kind of amazed how many 'get-dios' comments were posted -- must be well over half this thread. At the risk of appearing to be a dios-apologist (again) I can view his comment as coming from passionate caring --- I sure as hell wouldn't frame it in the same manner but 'MeFi' has in fact been doing a lot of Bushbashing in the last couple of days (and yes yes yes of course it is at least partly justified) where in fact this whole tragedy is just soooo much more complicated than mere Bush administration failures. When I first read dios's comments I kind of understood - and maybe I'm giving too wide a benefit of the doubt here - that although laying blame is of course necessary, the fact that things appear to be moving towards a satisfactory stage in the recovery seems to warrant some level of rejoicing rather than as an opportunity to focus rage. I'm an ocean removed and maybe the left-right demarcation line doesn't quite so affect my vision but sheesh, the guy seemed only to lament politicizing over expressions of relief. No great deal in the big scheme of things. *ducks*

By: [insert clever name here]

[insert clever name here] — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:33:26 -0800

I hate Bush as much as the next leftist nut, but out of all the things you could criticize him for, using this as a photo op is just dumb. Had he gone down the DAY the hurricane hit, or 5 days from now, it would be a photo op. Same for any president. Perhaps be upset that's the way our media and our government works, but don't be retarded and declare this is just a publicity stunt. Direct your rage at everything else that has gone wrong so far, but this is just a waste of time. Chandy72, I too felt physically relieved when I saw the photos of the trucks. Thank [whatever deity you do or don't pray to], even if its late.

By: caddis

caddis — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:33:46 -0800

I am glad these supplies are rolling in. That is great news. BUT, WHY DID IT TAKE SO F***ING LONG?

By: Rothko

Rothko — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:33:51 -0800

But perhaps he did set them up just to look macho. I don't see the flight suit, but it has happened before, so I concede the possiblity. Thanks for conceding the possibility. Ever watch presidential coverage on Fox? It's always glossy, ballsy and slick — five days is plenty of time to plan the right backdrop for the cameras.

By: rzklkng

rzklkng — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:36:44 -0800

Why can't you apologists realize that this is NOT an isolated incident and is reflective of everything the admin has done (or not done)...You'd think Dubya would have learned about responding to disasters, since one prolly caused Poppy's defeat in 1992.

By: lodurr

lodurr — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:37:34 -0800

... I can view his comment as coming from passionate caring ... I could buy that, if his comment had actually been reflective of the thread to that point. I went back and looked it over just to be sure, and I really didn't see what looked to me like a deficiency of relief. I saw anger that the assistance was days late and treasuries short, but I did also see genuine relief. Why dios didn't see it is something only he can address...

By: esquire

esquire — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:38:01 -0800

Argybarge: I understand your frustration. When will the American people wake up and make President Bush pay for the hurricane's destruction?

By: esquire

esquire — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:38:32 -0800

Caddis: because teleporters only exist in science fiction.

By: esquire

esquire — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:39:45 -0800

Peacay: I think it is time for get-Peacay posts now.

By: docgonzo

docgonzo — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:40:18 -0800

Again, I don't believe in feeding the troll, but how can anyone of sound mind argue against the politicization of this issue when the President appointed a political crony as the head of FEMA and not a professional?

By: cillit bang

cillit bang — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:40:27 -0800

how can you kick Bush’s ass for doing nothing, not showing leadership, when, if he does, it’s presumed it’s only a photo op? Because what he's doing is neither doing something nor showing leadership. Waving from a fucking airborne sedan chair is not what we're after.

By: clearlynuts

clearlynuts — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:40:29 -0800

Jeez...President Bush is damned by the wingnuts if he shows up early, and damned if he shows up late. Asses. Actually, here's where you're wrong. Going to the affected areas is the exact wrong thing to do because his mere presence sucks resources from the rescue efforts. When people want to know "where is President Bush" they don't mean "what is the President's location". They're being imprecise about asking "what is the President doing about this". To wit, the President can show that he actually has his shit straight and gives a fuck about what's going on in New Orleans without actually being in New Orleans or Mississippi or wherever he stages his photo-ops. If you don't get it; now you know. If you're being obtuse from the outset, then you and President Bush have something in common.

By: Floydd

Floydd — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:40:43 -0800

Is is permissible for those hungry, thirsty, homeless, ill, seriously depressed to speak up and curse, bewail, scream for help? Please advise so I can act properly posted by Postroad Of course not. They're directly responsible for their plight! Instead of waiting for the Federal Government to bail them out, they should have grabbed a coffee can and started bailing themselves. Slackers.

By: tizzie

tizzie — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:41:10 -0800

Red Cross on clothing donations: .... in-kind donations can also have the effect of hampering the relief effort ... They'd rather have financial contributions or blood.

By: caddis

caddis — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:42:46 -0800

So esquire, why weren't they there Wednesday? I know it is just soooo hard to get organized, especially when we knew there was trouble last Saturday, and the levee failed Monday night, but why the delay? Incompetence on the part of FEMA, that is why. With all of the years of planning for just such an event, and the deaths occurring by the hour, saying these things take time just doesn't cut it.

By: tizzie

tizzie — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:43:26 -0800

Guide to appropriate giving.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:46:10 -0800

"Ever watch presidential coverage on Fox?" I stopped watching seconds after a .40 hollowpoint hit my television screen. "Could this be a management problem? Nah...." Same problems in the Harding administration lodurr . Everything went through the gang of four. Take away people’s initiative, the shit hits the fan. It’s the problem with too much power, you can’t be everywhere and do everything. Old maxium: once you give orders on something, people will expect orders and guidance from you on that all the time. Best to let your people take the initiative. Those who do, get promoted. Those who don’t, continue to sweep floors. Easy enough. Unfortunately some people with no leadership skills are born rich... ...and for some bizzare reason people believe rich folks are more qualified in handling resources. I’ve always found, given equal training, the opposite to be true. I worked with a non-com who grew up in public housing. She managed things like there was never going to be another supply shipment. Bush’s attitude seems to be there are endless tomorrows. If it is, it’s not an uncommon trait among the privileged folks I’ve met.

By: mullingitover

mullingitover — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:46:23 -0800

fenriq : Dios, thanks, you finally got me pissed off enough to install GreaseMonkey and the kill file so I'll never have to read another one of your trollish comments. Isn't it great? Personally, I've found that [killed comment] is generally more insightful than anything Dios might have to say.

By: amberglow

amberglow — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:48:58 -0800

give me greasemonkey somebody--pls. CNNL: The big disconnect on New Orleans

By: rush

rush — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:50:57 -0800

It's more important for dios to attack us instead of the people responsible for this failure which is resulting in deaths--more every minute. Nice. Your concern for the many many thousands of starving people is showing in spades. Actually, amberglow, he's got a pretty good point. Particularly after you demeaned the efforts of first responders, and then proceeded to tell me, from the comfort of your desk chair, how air drops should be conducted. Many of the denizens of this site will release the hounds at a moment's notice for anything they think they might be able to tie to Bush in a negative manner, and being an utter dick about the efforts of people who are scared shitless, and standing chest-deep in water with a shotgun is just part of the game. I tried very hard to express just how little of a priority it was for the President to show up and shake hands with folks, and many of you (and you, specifically, amberglow) argued with me. Now he shows up and people want to bitch about it? Pick a position. It doesn't even have to be defensible. It would be too much to ask that it would be a position of genuine empathy, as opposed to political sniping.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:51:04 -0800

"Waving from a fucking airborne sedan chair is not what we're after." Not trying to be argumentative, cillit bang, but what are you after? Now, I mean. For Bush right now. The relief is on the way. - Only thing I can think of offhand is he should give the green light to accepting foreign aid. Big mistake not doing that.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:53:17 -0800

Metafilter: [killed comment] Irony in the communication of ideas. (no offense, I’m not criticising, just getting a kick out of it.)

By: ParisParamus

ParisParamus — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:54:18 -0800

Dios, ignore the a-holes in this thread. Anyone with an iota of knowledge of US government knows that Washington has a terciary role in these kind of disasters. It's not Washington's fault (or FEMA's) that there are, apparently, a bunch of zeros running NO and, apparently, LA. These are the same people who think the economy is still in terrible shape nationally; who think Bushy is the Devil, and that Howard Dean and John Kerry are not political disgraces. Actually, keep the intelligent, sane comments coming, Dios!

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:55:06 -0800

rush, I'd send you e-mail or a pm on this, but we don't have it. What kind of chopper is that behind Bush?

By: davy

davy — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:55:56 -0800

I don't know which thread to put this in, or whether anybody's already posted this, but I just saw (thanks to DSL) an in interesting (if tiny) view clip from BBC News. At the end of a "typical" (GACK) segment showing mothers weeping and bodies rotting, the reporter refers to what we've just seen -- and then the camera turns up the street and he says something like "All these people are suffering down here, and up there there are dozens of police, all concerned about one looter in that store over." I could taste his disgust that the shoot-to-kill-looters policy took precedence over all these suffering people. And yes, most of the "refugeees in their own city" were black, and it looked to me -- again on a TINY inline Realplayer window, from a video camera's zoom lens -- that the cops shown being all concerned with one looter were white.

By: amberglow

amberglow — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:56:00 -0800

Pick a position. It doesn't even have to be defensible. It would be too much to ask that it would be a position of genuine empathy, as opposed to political sniping. I, and most others here, have had one position all along--to help those people. That's it. Help didn't come, and is only NOW starting to come. That's unacceptable--beyond unacceptable. If we're lashing out at those in charge, it's because they DIDN'T DO THEIR FUCKING JOBS. I'm still waiting to see pictures of people actually being fed and given water. Convoys rolled in how many hours ago?

By: delmoi

delmoi — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:56:00 -0800

Smedleyman: Can you point to even one person who complained about bush, as a single person, not being there before the help arived? I don't care where bush is. I care about the busses and food supplies to help those refugees. It's like you're not even paying attention to what other people are saying. Bush can have all the photo ops he wants as long as the people get fed and evacuated ASAP.

By: Rothko

Rothko — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:58:04 -0800

Pick a position. It doesn't even have to be defensible. Your logical fallacy (and that of Dios, dare I mention God's name) is coming up with the idea that criticizing Bush for his five-day absence and critcizing Bush for taking advantage of the disaster for photo-ops are mutually exclusive positions, which they are most certainly not.

By: delmoi

delmoi — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:58:08 -0800

Dios, ignore the a-holes in this thread. Anyone with an iota of knowledge of US government knows that Washington has a terciary role in these kind of disasters. You're an idiot.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:58:09 -0800

"Irony in the communication of ideas." Smedleyman at 12:53 PM PST on September 2 chuckling at the need to block out other's comments in light of the blog purpose to communicate. "Dios, ignore the a-holes in this thread." ParisParamus at 12:54 PM PST on September 2 [!] Seconds later, I stand corrected.

By: TwelveTwo

TwelveTwo — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:59:30 -0800

Dios, PP, I'm a bit confused on your position. What is the role of government?

By: ParisParamus

ParisParamus — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 12:59:33 -0800

Anyone with an iota of knowledge of US government knows that Washington has a terciary role in these kind of disasters.

By: mr_roboto

mr_roboto — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:00:48 -0800

Isn't the corps of engineers in charge of maintaining the levees? That seems like a primary role....

By: rush

rush — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:02:23 -0800

Rothko, I'm not sure that I came up with that idea.

By: amberglow

amberglow — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:02:39 -0800

Anyone with an iota of knowledge of US government knows that Washington has a terciary role in these kind of disasters. Why does FEMA exist, idiot? Why do we have National Guard?

By: mr_roboto

mr_roboto — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:02:50 -0800

And the National Hurricane Center, run by NOAA, is certainly a branch of the federal government with a primary role in hurricane planning....

By: Pollomacho

Pollomacho — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:03:51 -0800

Anyone with an iota of knowledge of US government knows that Washington has a terciary [sic] role in these kind of disasters. Saying it over and over does not make it true Paris.

By: Rothko

Rothko — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:04:00 -0800

Anyone with an iota of knowledge of US government knows that Washington has a terciary role in these kind of disasters. posted by ParisParamus at 3:59 PM EST on September 2 [!] What were all those USAF fighter jets doing flying over NYC after 9/11? Sightseeing?

By: scody

scody — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:05:36 -0800

Anyone with an iota of knowledge of US government knows that Washington has a terciary role in these kind of disasters. Hence the FEDERAL Emergency Management Agency. The U.S. ARMY Corps of Engineers. The NATIONAL Guard. Yes, yes: weekend sewing clubs, all. Everyone knows that major, billion-dollar disasters are fixed by the efforts of city councils. Also, it's "tertiary," you fucking moron. And just for the record: yes, I despise you, and hope fervently that you keep your promise to leave Metafilter forever; moreover, I hope you fall down a fucking well and rot to death waiting for help to arrive that never does.

By: MrMoonPie

MrMoonPie — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:06:07 -0800

OK, peacay, I’ll bite. You suggest that dios is simply expressing his compassion for the hurricane victims. I thought that might be a possibility, so I looked up his other comments on the subject. Every single one of them, without exception, was in defense of the administration’s actions. Before he made the comment in this thread, he hadn’t made a single comment, not a single one, expressing compassion for the hurricane victims. Not one. I conclude that he was waiting to strike, saving up the moral outrage for the perfect moment. Maybe he's not a troll, technically, since he may actually believe what he's saying. But he's certainly an asshole.

By: ParisParamus

ParisParamus — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:07:12 -0800

"What is the role of government?" It's not a question of what the role of government is. It's a question of who has primary, or rather, initial responsibility for relief efforts. The US isn't France. We don't have a national police force--thankfully. NO's Police is known for being corrupt and incompetent, but at the very least, Lousiana should have had a legitimate plan in place to restore order and provide relief. Washington comes in later, just days later, but that's a fundamental difference. Then again, I still don't know how much of the current situation is a function of governmental incompetence, and how much is a function of NO being in a real stupid place. You know, when an 8 or 9 earthquake finally hits California, do you really think thousands of people won't die? There's only so much government, MAN can do in these situations. newsflash: YOU KNOW LESS THAN YOU THINK YOU DO.

By: scody

scody — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:08:52 -0800

Read MrMoonPie's comment again, everyone: You suggest that dios is simply expressing his compassion for the hurricane victims. I thought that might be a possibility, so I looked up his other comments on the subject. Every single one of them, without exception, was in defense of the administration’s actions. Before he made the comment in this thread, he hadn’t made a single comment, not a single one, expressing compassion for the hurricane victims. Not one.

By: rush

rush — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:09:09 -0800

amberglow, you continue to demean the efforts of first responders, and it's driving me a bit batty. Here's how it works, as explained by a humble "idiot": 1. Local first responders jump in to assist in the event of an emergency. It doesn't matter what the US governement thinks about anything, local first responders are the fastest and most effective first response to any point crisis. Hence, "first responders." 2. State response units, as well as the response units from surrounding areas respond. These people are close, and know the area, so they are next in line to arrive at the site of a crisis situation. This can be everything from the active National Guard in the crisis state to local military. 3. National response. This includes Federal resources from other parts of the country, as well as the armed forces as you are commonly aware of them. Hence, yes, the Federal government takes a tertiary role.

By: Rothko

Rothko — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:09:23 -0800

Metafilter: YOU KNOW LESS THAN YOU THINK YOU DO

By: ParisParamus

ParisParamus — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:09:49 -0800

"What were all those USAF fighter jets doing flying over NYC after 9/11? Sightseeing?" Relief isn't delivery by small supersonic jets. "Also, it's "tertiary," you fucking moron. And just for the record: yes, I despise you, and hope fervently that you keep your promise to leave Metafilter forever; moreover, I hope you fall down a fucking well and rot to death waiting for help to arrive that never does." Scody, light onto the nations!

By: cillit bang

cillit bang — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:10:50 -0800

Not trying to be argumentative, cillit bang, but what are you after? Well currently he's acting like the Queen opening a new hospital in Milton Keynes, all smiles and pretending to be interested. Isn't he meant to be in charge? Maybe not constitutionally, but I'm sure he had the leverage to make things happen a little bit quicker than they did.

By: Rothko

Rothko — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:11:28 -0800

Hey, third helpings: OK, peacay, I’ll bite. You suggest that dios is simply expressing his compassion for the hurricane victims. I thought that might be a possibility, so I looked up his other comments on the subject. Every single one of them, without exception, was in defense of the administration’s actions. Before he made the comment in this thread, he hadn’t made a single comment, not a single one, expressing compassion for the hurricane victims. Not one.

By: rush

rush — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:11:38 -0800

Smedleyman, in what photo?

By: selfnoise

selfnoise — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:12:01 -0800

"The Federal Emergency Management Agency - a former independent agency that became part of the new Department of Homeland Security in March 2003 - is tasked with responding to, planning for, recovering from and mitigating against disasters." "In March 2003, FEMA joined 22 other federal agencies, programs and offices in becoming the Department of Homeland Security. The new department, headed by Secretary Tom Ridge, brought a coordinated approach to national security from emergencies and disasters - both natural and man-made." "As it has for more than 20 years, FEMA's mission remains: to lead America to prepare for, prevent, respond to and recover from disasters with a vision of "A Nation Prepared."" Source : Fema.gov.

By: Armitage Shanks

Armitage Shanks — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:13:54 -0800

Huh. The trucks finally arrive in New Orleans and all the usual Metafilter wingnuts come crawling out of the woodwork. Color me surprised.

By: davy

davy — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:13:55 -0800

Again, this cannot all be blamed on Hurricane Katrina or President Bush: this issue shows how rotten the American system is. I doubt even successfully dethroning Bush (to replace him with Dick "Halliburton" Cheney?) will have any effect, and I doubt that voting in a liberal-sounding Democrat in 2008 (THREE YEARS in the future) will produce anything but more liberal-sounding lies and bullshit. Ranting about Bush is fun but it's ultimately a diversion. The problem is even bigger than that. And PP, the role of the government is to keep the rich bastards in power and to get them more power. You're right, everything else is tertiary: if they felt their power was sufficiently endangered they'd let everybody in New Orleans starve and rot.

By: ParisParamus

ParisParamus — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:14:24 -0800

Scody, you deserve a two week time-out from Metafilter. I can't post to Metatalk this week again--too bad.

By: rush

rush — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:14:26 -0800

Yes, FEMA, and for that matter, the Federal government, has a role in emergency response. It is, more specifically, a tertiary role.

By: rawfishy

rawfishy — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:15:18 -0800

ParisP - heh, that was deep stuff you wrote there, careful you dont hurt yourself with your keyboard kid.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:15:19 -0800

"Can you point to even one person who complained about bush, as a single person, not being there before the help arived? " I did. Lots. He needs to be ‘on hand’. Not necessarially right there in the thick of things, but you need the CiC to show how serious things are and how serious he is about getting things done. I vaguely remember (in another thread) someone arguing about how his presence affects the mindset of other workers, etc. Sp In short, at the very least I’ve been saying it. He should have been doing it to show the commitment and to show leadership. I’ve already granted he may be currently doing it in a self-serving manner. "It's like you're not even paying attention to what other people are saying." Ah. Irony. Perhaps you’re not paying attention to my qualifiers? I’m not sure there is an argument there. What Bush did before. Bad. The relief is on it’s way. Good. Bush opportunism. Maybe. Maybe not. I don’t know. He has a history of it, but I don’t care because I believe a good commander leads from the front. By example. Being involved and in the area is, in my opinion, one chit in his favor. That doesn’t change the validity of the other criticism. But perception is a big part of politics as it is with leadership. Good lord, can't a man be reasonable?

By: amberglow

amberglow — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:15:37 -0800

amberglow, you continue to demean the efforts of first responders, and it's driving me a bit batty. Here's how it works, as explained by a humble "idiot" When Bush declares a state of emergency and FEMA says it's prepositioning supplies on Saturday night as Katrina approaches, it's a joint effort, or should have been. The local and state officials were screaming for help even before it hit. Don't tell me what i'm demeaning. I'm demeaning those people with the power to feed hundreds of thousands--something still not done, with the power to move all those people to safety--something still not done, with the power to devote the entire country's resources to an unprecedented disaster and get all those resources to the affected area, etc.

By: Rothko

Rothko — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:16:22 -0800

"What were all those USAF fighter jets doing flying over NYC after 9/11? Sightseeing?" Relief isn't delivery by small supersonic jets. I think most reasonable people would agree those jets were there in defense of the city from further attacks, and, to stretch a metaphor, constitute "relief" in that sense. Anyway, you're being dishonest about what you said. The federal government is in place to protect and defend the public. Its role is hardly "terciary" or "tertiary" with respect to disasters on this scale.

By: Floydd

Floydd — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:16:44 -0800

"A Nation Prepared." It's not just a phrase, it's a slogan!

By: rush

rush — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:16:48 -0800

What Bush did before. Bad. The relief is on it’s way. Good. Bush opportunism. Maybe. Maybe not. I don’t know. Good summary, Smedleyman.

By: all-seeing eye dog

all-seeing eye dog — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:17:05 -0800

newsflash: YOU KNOW LESS THAN YOU THINK YOU DO. Conceded. Now you.

By: dios

dios — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:17:20 -0800

AlexReynolds, you can shut the fuck up, k? While you have been sitting here all week playing 101st keyboard ~~warriors~~ responders, I (and members of my firm) have doing things to actually help these people as they pile into Dallas. Notice my lack of comments over the last two days. So you can kiss my ass if you want to use my comment history on this topic to questing whether I have compassion. You, and amberglow, and the rest of your fucking brigade care infintely more about the political spinning of this tragedy then you do with the people. One only has to point to which issues are of more importance. How anyone can look at what has happened and worry about how it will be spinned is beyond me. People who do are the lowest form of slime. Bush and the federal government may not have done everything as soon as possible, and there will be a time to argue this point (there will probably be investigations by Congress, etc.) But while efforts are still on-going and people are still being pulled out of there, the fact that you seem more concerned with spilling ink about why Bush deserves to be impeached only goes to show how pathetic many of you are. I'm not wasting any more time here.

By: davy

davy — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:17:45 -0800

Yes, FEMA, and for that matter, the Federal government, has a more important role than getting food, water and medical care to the "refugees in their own city". See my previous comment.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:17:55 -0800

rush: President Bush Diverts Critical Resources For Photo-Op here: http://thinkprogress.org/2005/09/02/photo-op-2/

By: ParisParamus

ParisParamus — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:19:06 -0800

Scody, my dear. Tertiary and Terciary are both accepted spellings. Also, bet I went to better schools than you. Nah nah nah nah nah!

By: Floydd

Floydd — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:20:04 -0800

I'm not wasting any more time here. posted by dios Don't forget to stop by MeTa for the obligatory flame-out!

By: Rothko

Rothko — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:20:10 -0800

I'm not wasting any more time here. posted by dios at 4:17 PM EST on September 2 [!] You keep saying that, again and again, but you never follow through. Try harder next time.

By: TwelveTwo

TwelveTwo — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:20:14 -0800

I'm still curious to know what PP thinks the role of government is. I wasn't arguing, I just wasn't understanding his stance. I'll go sit outside the conversation, confused and ignored. :(

By: Armitage Shanks

Armitage Shanks — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:20:46 -0800

I'm not wasting any more time here. Stop making false promises, troll.

By: peacay

peacay — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:21:14 -0800

MrMoonPie perhaps you're right. I just read the comment on the fly and honestly, I'm generally not in enough political threads to have formed a longview opinion about dios. But he can defend himself or not. ParisParamus, does your highhorse have a lift installed or must you take the stairs? "Any chance that the food and aid will go to waste since everyone is now heading to Texas?"... oh the twisted irony. In any event, shit I'm glad there's some positive action. Food and fucking water. Those poor harassed bastards. And praise ought to be given for all those helpers around - Houston alone sound like it's going to be crammed to the rafters. Good on you all. on preview...well there be dios now.

By: MrMoonPie

MrMoonPie — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:24:34 -0800

shit I'm glad there's some positive action

Yes, peacay, I think that's a sentiment we can all agree with. Thank you to all the workers out there slogging through the muck to get what's needed to the people who need it.

By: ParisParamus

ParisParamus — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:26:16 -0800

Peacay, all I'm saying is that it's assinine and ignorant to start pointing blame at this point; and it's especially suspect when people on Metafilter start blaming the President--gee what a surprise.

By: scody

scody — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:27:27 -0800

Scody, you deserve a two week time-out from Metafilter. For what? For finally getting angry with you in the middle of the worst fucking disaster of my lifetime while you sit there and pontificate about how it's not the federal government's role to save people's lives?! Sure, fine: if that renders me a timeout, so be it (though you've said FAR fucing worse far more times in all the years I've read MeFi, and you've gotten away scot-free with it over and over and over a-fuckin-gain). My anger also renders me fully fucking human, which is more than I've always suspected can be said for you. Scody, my dear. Tertiary and Terciary are both accepted spellings. Not according to Webster's, American Heritage, Cambridge, or Oxford (online). None of them list "terciary" as an accepted spelling. None. Also, bet I went to better schools than you. Nah nah nah nah nah! Keep it up. You're making yourself look better and better all the time.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:28:50 -0800

"I (and members of my firm) have doing things to actually help these people as they pile into Dallas." Well MY dick is 9.5 inches and my wife walks bowlegged 6X's a week, four times on Saturdays. ....oh, sorry. (We should all do what we can. And probably are. Partisan stuff aside, I suspect you all are much more than you are on-line) Metafilter: Don't forget to stop by MeTa for the obligatory flame-out!

By: scody

scody — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:29:34 -0800

it's especially suspect when people on Metafilter start blaming the President--gee what a surprise. What about when members of his own party start doing it (see Vitter, David and Gingrich, Newt)? Is it a surprise then?

By: MrMoonPie

MrMoonPie — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:29:36 -0800

AlexReynolds, you can shut the fuck up, k?

I just noticed this. I don't know if dios is implying that Mr. Reynolds and I are the same person, if he's responding to something else, or if he's merely confused about who posted what. For the record, I'm not AlexReynolds; I think there are plenty of folks here who can vouch for that fact.

By: mr.curmudgeon

mr.curmudgeon — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:30:06 -0800

This horrible event may finally give the media the courage they need to finally criticize the ineptitude demonstrated by this administration for the past several years. Since 9/11, every talking head feared that they'd be labeled a traitor for speaking out against this administration's bungled handling of the War on Terror. Bush, Cheney, et al. made sure to wrap themselves in the flag and make it seem as if any criticism of *them* was a criticism of America. Well...we were attacked by a hurricane this time, and there's nothing for BushCo. to hide behind since everything has been wiped out. Their mishandling of FEMA and their misappropriation of the National Guard had direct and horrific consequences in New Orleans this week and I have a sneaking suspicion that the media won't let them walk away so easily this time. After the rescue effort is over, and the support/clean-up effort begins, we, as a nation, must hold accountable, all those who failed the people of the Gulf Coast Region. This *IS* political. Politics stopped the funding from getting to the areas that needed it most, politics left New Orleans in the lurch. Politics sent our Nation Guard to a far distant land to fight some ill-conceived war, and politics will eventually bring them (and all of our troops) home so they can truly protect our nation, and help out in future disasters/attacks such as that which happened in America these past several days.

By: ericb

ericb — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:30:24 -0800

selfnoise: I think you copied it improperly from the FEMA website. It should read: "As it has for more than 20 years, FEMA's mission remains: to lead in a tertiary role America to prepare for, prevent, respond to and recover from disasters with a vision of 'A Nation Prepared.'"

By: ParisParamus

ParisParamus — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:35:58 -0800

"This horrible event may finally give the media the courage they need to finally criticize the ineptitude demonstrated by this administration for the past several years." You mean the excellence, don't you? Why is it the Left is still in denial over the fact that only a small minority of voters agrees with them? Similar comments were made before the 2002 elections, and the 2004 election. Get a new plan, man!

By: Rothko

Rothko — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:37:07 -0800

By: normy

normy — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:37:23 -0800

dios: Which shows me that a lot of you didn't appreciate this to be a tragedy it in fact is. I'm speechless. *draws a breath* What kind of polarized universe do you live in? How is it not possible to be both completely outraged at the disgustingly, shambolicly inadequate response to a huge crisis and be worried sick about the victims, be appalled at the fate of so many people, AT THE SAME TIME? I have friends in New Orleans. I've not spent anywhere near as much time there as I wish I could have. I've been glued to the coverage all week. I've not posted about it in MeFi because I've been either sick to my stomach with worry for friends and the situation of the city, or near incandescent with rage at the falilure of planning, leadership and management evident as the response to this huge tragedy has unfolded. All I can do is send more money than I can strictly afford and hope the systems exist to help the people that need help. I know many people who worked or do work in various branches of federal government. Since 9/11, huge swathes of government funding and management have been restructured, re organised, rebudgeted, removed, created and generally manipulated in the name of Homeland Security. Many billions have been spent in the name of protecting the USA. This administration have made it the cornerstone of their strategy and policy. Katrina was the first big test of what we've all been sold. The response has been pitifully managed, the resources we've all been paying for woefully slow to materialize, the leadership, command and communication a mess. Just at the time we really, really need them and in circumstances we've all been told are exactly what we're supposed to have been planning and paying for. The system has failed us. You bet that's political. No-one's suggesting it's not good to see troops finally arriving. If the president wants to go on TV when it happens I couldn't care less. It's irrelevent, the damage is already done. Some of the people I've met and know from there could be dead. People have already died because help that should have got to them quicker didn't. I hope those that still need it get it quickly now. Enough from me. Here's a friend from New Orleans with some more: "We have heard from some friends, but many are still unaccounted for - few of us have cars or the resources to evacuate, so many of our friends were forced to stay. Needless to say, we are worried sick about them. This is true for a large percentage of New Orleans - there are many poor people there, and no real plans were made to get them out, though everyone has known for years that there would be large numbers of people unable to leave in an event such as this. There was no national guard left in LA to immediately respond to the situation as most of our national guard is currently in Iraq. As you have also most likely heard on the news, people there are still waiting for food and water. They are starting to starve and dehydrate. As I speak, the National Guard (that is being brought in from around the country) has the city surrounded and are not letting anyone in or out, except for the buses evacuating people. There are heaps of supplies waiting for the people of New Orleans in Baton Rouge, but people with supplies are not being allowed into the city, they are being turned away by the Guard. The excuse given is that until the looting and shooting in New Orleans is under control, it is not safe enough to allow anyone into the city. What we do not understand is that if the United States has planes capable of flying over Iraq and dropping bombs, they can not find a way to at least air-drop supplies into the city. Perhaps if the people in New Orleans had food and water, they would not be rioting. There is no well organized relief effort - we have spoken to a number of agencies as we are working on our own relief effort, and they do not know where supplies should go to, who has authority to allow people with supplies in, etc. We have managed to speak to a few people in New Orleans and they confirm this - they have not had food and water in several days, and more and more people are dying because of this. Now private homes are being looted because there is no food or water left in any of the stores. Charity Hospital - the free care hospital - is finally being evacuated, 3 days after the private hospitals were evacuated. Their generators blew a couple of days ago and everyone on life support is now dead. They have almost no medicine and no supplies. This is turning into a class war - the poor of New Orleans are paying the price. Almost no word is being said on the news about the lower 9th ward anymore - the area completely under water - because there are hundreds and hundreds of dead there. We have heard of bodies floating in the street by our house - and throughout the city. All this is absolutely devastating. Everyone in New Orleans knew that the 'big one' would come some day - but no one anticipated such a complete failure on the part of our government to bring us relief."

By: agregoli

agregoli — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:37:41 -0800

I find it really odd that some people cannot imagine a dual effort - caring about the people involved in this disaster AND being able to criticize how the disaster is handled. Why must we be of only one mind, one voice? Why is it "inappropriate" to discuss misgivings and anger at the situation on a goddamn MESSAGE BOARD?? I shake my head in utter disbelief.

By: amberglow

amberglow — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:38:25 -0800

what mr.curmudgeon said. maybe you guys don't realize that this is bigger than just the horrors in New Orleans--when we are attacked again, we're actually seeing what the response would be. We're seeing that Homeland Security doesn't actually help people in the Homeland. People are starving, and dying--still.

By: OmieWise

OmieWise — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:39:05 -0800

ParisP-I think you might be confusing how you would like the Federal Govt to be with how it actually is. I've got more than an iota of knowledge about this, and I know that, more than ever since 9-11, relief efforts to major disasters in the US have been federalized. I think one thing that makes the anemic response to this tragedy so frustrating is that it's clear that while the Feds have been busy color-coding our risk, they've let the established systems degrade to the point that they don't work as well as they should.

By: elpapacito

elpapacito — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:39:09 -0800

Forget Bush, it's just a convenient target like any other president in the history they were criticized or praised but most importantly they drawed attention away from the others, expecially house reps and senators and their cohorts. The things that make me mad is that good firemans, good policeman and military, even good citizens with no particular hierarchical organization probably did a lot and risked their lifes to save other people like me you and everybody else..but of course who's going to attemp taking the merit ? The politicians for not interfering and the big power concentration for graciously not profiting even more from the situation.

By: phearlez

phearlez — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:39:17 -0800

How anyone can look at what has happened and worry about how it will be spinned is beyond me. People who do are the lowest form of slime. I'd rank them below the people spinning their repeated ineptitude into continued political survival, personally, but I'm a member of the Competency-based Community.

By: Pollomacho

Pollomacho — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:39:30 -0800

only a small minority of voters agrees with them Huh? By that you mean that they have lost by a small minority, right? I think you have your words mixed up, either that or you haven't been paying much attention to reality.

By: agregoli

agregoli — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:39:39 -0800

Basically what normy said.

By: ericb

ericb — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:39:43 -0800

Well as of today, a majority of Americans think that the federal government has not done enough to help in the Gulf Coast ... and a majority of Americans disapprove of President Bush's response to Hurricane Katrina.

By: OmieWise

OmieWise — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:41:08 -0800

ParisParamus writes "Why is it the Left is still in denial over the fact that only a small minority of voters agrees with them?" You mean 49%? Man, I keep trying to treat you like you have a brain.

By: insomnia_lj

insomnia_lj — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:42:10 -0800

The Hero of New Orleans -- General Russel L. Honore.

By: twistedonion

twistedonion — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:42:53 -0800

You mean the excellence, don't you? Why is it the Left is still in denial over the fact that only a small minority of voters agrees with them? Similar comments were made before the 2002 elections, and the 2004 election. Get a new plan, man! If you really believe the American administration has has excelled in anything over the past five year then you are the most deluded individual I have ever come across on the web. Are you really George Bush?

By: thomcatspike

thomcatspike — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:43:08 -0800

I'm not wasting any more time here. ~~Convoy~~ dios on the go.

By: ParisParamus

ParisParamus — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:45:44 -0800

OmieWise, I know Homeland Security may have taken over some duties, but FEMA still exists (under HS?), and the impetus for HS was/is terrorism. For context, consider the relief efforts that have been mounted for the hurricianes in Florida. Unless you subscribe to a rascist response theory, the big difference between FL and LA/MS is the local component (both in terms of government and the sea level thing). It just seems incredibly pre-mature, and Metafilter-predictable to be blaming President Bush and his administration.

By: funambulist

funambulist — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:46:27 -0800

BUSH: You know, as governor, one of the things you have to deal with is catastrophe. I can remember the fires that swept Parker County, Texas. I remember the floods that swept our state. I remember going down to Del Rio, Texas. I have to pay the administration a compliment. James Lee Witt of FEMA has done a really good job of working with governors during times of crisis. But that's the time when you're tested not only -- it's the time to test your metal, a time to test your heart when you see people whose lives have been turned upside down. It broke my heart to go to the flood scene in Del Rio where a fellow and his family got completely uprooted. The only thing I knew was to got aid as quickly as possible with state and federal help, and to put my arms around the man and his family and cry with them. That's what governors do. They are often on the front line of catastrophic situations.

By: insomnia_lj

insomnia_lj — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:46:48 -0800

"Why is it the Left is still in denial over the fact that only a small minority of voters agrees with them?" Your small minority isn't so small anymore... and it's going to get a lot bigger still, once all this plays out. Talk to the hand.

By: scody

scody — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:46:58 -0800

Of the many excellent points made in normy's post of his friend's email, let me pull out one quote for those of you reading this thread who don't like big swaths of text containng silly stuff like information and facts: "There was no national guard left in LA to immediately respond to the situation as most of our national guard is currently in Iraq." 'Nuff said?

By: Pollomacho

Pollomacho — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:47:24 -0800

impetus for HS was/is terrorism That is exactly the problem. It is an organization that is supposed to handle all aspects of Homeland Security, not just the extremely limited threat of terrorism.

By: ParisParamus

ParisParamus — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:47:47 -0800

"If you really believe the American administration has has excelled in anything over the past five year then you are the most deluded individual I have ever come across on the web. Are you really George Bush?" The economy is somewhere between good and great. I think the Bush administration's foreign policy is an overwelming success. followup question?

By: Pollomacho

Pollomacho — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:49:25 -0800

followup question? Nope, you seemed to have proved his point.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:49:57 -0800

“..I have a sneaking suspicion that the media won't let them walk away so easily this time. This *IS* political...” Well said, mr.curmudgeon. I concur. Strike while the iron is hot. Waiting will only give them time to play ‘cover our ass’ and find someone else to blame; whoever the scapegoat du jour is. Perhaps it’s Cindy Sheehan’s fault? Nah, I’d rather lay blame where the power is and the responsibility should be. This focus on ‘terrr’ is B.S. but it’s SOOO media sexy. In the real world, 9/11 - as tragic as it was, was nowhere near the impact this was. Terrorists kill less people and do less material damage than car accidents. Certainly we should be doing things about it, but a lot of resources were earmarked for the ‘War on Terrr’ that didn’t need to be. Indeed, politics is in part the struggle for the direction of resources. ...strikes me as odd tho how in the current political climate the ‘conservatives’ aren’t the isolationists (for lack of a better word). Of course the Dems have always been more ‘butter’ than ‘gun’.

By: ParisParamus

ParisParamus — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:52:38 -0800

""There was no national guard left in LA to immediately respond to the situation as most of our national guard is currently in Iraq." 'Nuff said?" Actually, you've just said NOTHING. From the current edition of OpinionJournal.com's Best of the Web: Plenty of Troops One of the myths the Angry Left has been peddling in the wake of Katrina is that there aren't enough National Guardsmen to deal with the disaster because they're all off in Iraq. National Review Online's James Robbins offers a dose of reality: Take the Army for example. There are 1,012,000 soldiers on active duty, in the Reserves, or in the National Guard. Of them, 261,000 are deployed overseas in 120 countries. Iraq accounts for 103,000 soldiers, or 10.2 percent of the Army. That's all? Yes, 10.2 percent. That datum is significant in itself, a good one to keep handy the next time someone talks about how our forces are stretched too thin, our troops are at the breaking point, and so forth. If you add in Afghanistan (15,000) and the support troops in Kuwait (10,000) you still only have 12.6 percent. So where are the rest? 751,000 (74.2 percent) are in the U.S. About half are active duty, and half Guard and Reserve. The Guard is the real issue of course--the Left wants you to believe that the country has been denuded of its citizen soldiers, and that Louisiana has suffered inordinately because Guardsmen and women who would have been available to be mobilized by the state to stop looting and aid in reconstruction are instead risking their lives in Iraq. Recall, too, that many of the same people who are now say the National Guard is too important to waste on American security overseas a year ago were insisting that George W. Bush was a bum for serving in the Texas Air National Guard while "war hero" John Kerry was in Vietnam.

By: mr.curmudgeon

mr.curmudgeon — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:52:47 -0800

"I think the Bush administration's foreign policy is an overwelming [sic] success." Definitely "overwhelming"...I guess, if by "success" you mean having "pushed Iraq to the brink of civil war, further destabilizing the middle east, and exponentially increasing the threat against our nation"...then I'd have to agree with you on that as well.

By: ParisParamus

ParisParamus — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:54:15 -0800

From National Review, actually: http://www.nationalreview.com/robbins/robbins200509020719.asp

By: insomnia_lj

insomnia_lj — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:55:09 -0800

As a MetaFilter user, I wanted to take the time to apologize to any of the citizens of New Orleans who are visiting this thread and who read the crap that ParisParamus says. His behavior is far outside of the mainstream and does not represent the great majority of the people who use this site, and who care for and have respect for the lives of those who live in New Orleans. He's drunk too much of the toxic waste contaminated koolade, unfortunately...

By: insomnia_lj

insomnia_lj — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:56:23 -0800

And now, back to the topic at hand. Relief convoys are finally entering the city, but still face some pretty huge difficulties.

By: twistedonion

twistedonion — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:56:56 -0800

followup question? Weren't you leaving?

By: TwelveTwo

TwelveTwo — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:57:09 -0800

Good luck to'em!

By: ParisParamus

ParisParamus — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:57:49 -0800

Also, there's an equal or better likelyhood that the problem is too much FEMA, and too much government participation in relief efforts

By: Bulgaroktonos

Bulgaroktonos — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:57:57 -0800

By: scody

scody — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:58:08 -0800

The economy is somewhere between good and great. I think the Bush administration's foreign policy is an overwelming success. followup question? Why yes, I have a question! What jobs and affordable housing are immediately available to the hundreds of thousands of workers and their families displaced by Katrina? Considering this is a "good to great" economy, and all, and I'm sure that all those people leaving a major city with just the clothes on their backs won't spell any increase in unemployment or something. And please be specific: the numbers and types of jobs available, average salaries, housing availability and cost, etc. I expect your extensive knowledge about this "good to great" economy means you have all those facts at your fingertips.

By: Pollomacho

Pollomacho — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:58:25 -0800

Paris, this is not a snark, please don't take it that way, but that is exactly the kind of post that people have been looking for from you! Concise, clear, non-rehtorical and backed up with links etc. Not that I agree with it, but much better than just saying, "you are stupid" Thanks. I mean that. Now back to normal programming.

By: ParisParamus

ParisParamus — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 13:59:37 -0800

I think your apology should be rejected by any sane New Orleansean (or whatever they call themsleves).

By: ParisParamus

ParisParamus — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:01:23 -0800

Pollomacho, thanks. I have a new computer, so doing that kind of thing is easier. But I really don't think one should be obliged to post links to back up what is, usually one's opninion. But thanks.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:01:27 -0800

"It just seems incredibly pre-mature, and Metafilter-predictable to be blaming President Bush and his administration." ParisParamus, your fucking ejaculations are pre-mature. ...what? It’s right here: Main Entry: ejac·u·la·tion Pronunciation: i-"ja-ky&-'lA-sh&n Function: noun 1 : something ejaculated; especially : a short sudden emotional utterance Also, your dick is short.

By: insomnia_lj

insomnia_lj — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:01:53 -0800

Just as a sidenote, I don't remember Kerry or any other leading Democrat ever criticizing Bush for serving in the Texas Air National Guard. Rather, they criticized him because his father pulled strings to land him a hard-to-obtain, safe position in the air national guard so that he could avoid service in Vietnam.

By: scody

scody — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:04:30 -0800

Scody, the problem with that quote is that although it may appear that way to someone in New Orleans, it is simple not true. The DOD does draw more than 50% of the National Guard from any given state for the war, meaning that LA had at least half it's guard complement in state, and I'm pretty sure it had closer to 2/3. Thats not a lot given the disaster that they've got on their hands down there, but it's far from none. And if that's true, then it still means there were available Nat'l Guardsman who weren't mobilized in a timely fashion (i.e., on Monday.) So either they weren't available because of the war, or they were available but weren't activated until several days into the crisis. Not a ringing endorsement of leadership either way.

By: insomnia_lj

insomnia_lj — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:05:09 -0800

"they criticized him because his father pulled strings to land him a hard-to-obtain, safe position in the air national guard so that he could avoid service in Vietnam." Oh... and then, of course, Bush failed to show up.

By: ParisParamus

ParisParamus — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:06:27 -0800

"Why yes, I have a question! What jobs and affordable housing are immediately available to the hundreds of thousands of workers and their families displaced by Katrina? Considering this is a "good to great" economy, and all, and I'm sure that all those people leaving a major city with just the clothes on their backs won't spell any increase in unemployment or something." I will filter out the obnoxious tint of your question and answer: Jobs? probably none for quite some time, save those who were involved in the construction trades. Mucho aid, billions, perhaps hundreds of billions will be needed to provide aide to the region and its people. But thankfully, the strength of the national economy will make this relatively painless. Disasters of this kind will actually have a positive impact on the economy--look for Home Depot stock to rise, for example. I am retiring from this thread. Shabbat shalom, all!

By: ParisParamus

ParisParamus — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:07:24 -0800

"Oh... and then, of course, Bush failed to show up. posted by insomnia_lj at 5:05 PM EST on September 2 [!]" You tried that lie last fall. When will you learn?

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:09:05 -0800

"...George W. Bush was a bum for serving in the Texas Air National Guard while "war hero" John Kerry was in Vietnam..." Were you wearing one of those cute ‘purple heart band-aids’ that mocked Kerry’s wounds? Boy the guys in the DAV all loved that let me tell you. Mock his service again, put war hero in quotes again, you fucking pogue. That said, I’d agree with Pollomacho, that other post was cogent. But one swallow does not a summer make. Your disrespect is appalling. Go away.

By: delmoi

delmoi — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:09:53 -0800

Scody, you deserve a two week time-out from Metafilter. I can't post to Metatalk this week again--too bad. Paris, you deserve a ass whuppin'. I did. Lots. He needs to be ‘on hand’. Not necessarily right there in the thick of things, but you need the CiC to show how serious things are and how serious he is about getting things done. So, since other people disagree with you, we're all hypocrites? Now that I think about it, I agree with you. Had I been in bush's position, I would have been in the thick of things before the storm hit. Obviously, bush thought his people would handle things on their own (and he was wrong). But I don't care where he is, specifically. What matters to me is if American citizens are starving and dying in the streets. Good lord, can't a man be reasonable? Okay, I understand what you're saying. It's good he's down there. As I said, what bothers me is the abject failure of government. Bush's photo ops were irritating, but didn't dampen my relief that relief was finally on the way. Dios: You, and amberglow, and the rest of your fucking brigade care infintely more about the political spinning of this tragedy then you do with the people. One only has to point to which issues are of more importance. As I said way upthread " I was relived that there was an evacuation under way, that's why I posted this. IF you think all this gnashing is just cynical political opportunism then you can go fuck yourself." I'm not wasting any more time here. Thank god. selfnoise: I think you copied it improperly from the FEMA website. It should read: "As it has for more than 20 years, FEMA's mission remains: to lead in a tertiary role America to prepare for, prevent, respond to and recover from disasters with a vision of 'A Nation Prepared.'" Ericb: are you lying or joking or what?

By: twistedonion

twistedonion — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:10:22 -0800

look for Home Depot stock to rise Sums up everything I despise about you and your type on this thread. 1,000s will have died but better houses will be built and DIY stores will do a roaring trade. How do you do that greasemonkey thing. I feel sick

By: insomnia_lj

insomnia_lj — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:10:55 -0800

The Burden on the Louisiana National Guard is more than the percentages would suggest. When you send that many of your soldiers over to Iraq, you're primarily sending the "tooth"... the soldiers who go out there and do things. You're not generally sending the "tail", the majority of the soldiers who supply and support the tooth. I have no doubt that many of those in the Louisiana National Guard have been extremely busy just keeping things going for those who are in Iraq, shunting as much of the desk jockeying as possible back stateside. There were also news reports before the earthquake that a huge amount of the most useful supplies for dealing with hurricanes were over in Iraq, and that the State of Louisiana wanted them back. Under such circumstances, it is quite possible that the Louisiana National Guard were at 25% effectiveness or less in dealing with this crisis.

By: delmoi

delmoi — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:11:24 -0800

Also. AlexReynolds hasn't posted anything in this thread, unless his comments were deleted.

By: davy

davy — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:13:06 -0800

This crisis in New Orleans shows that the whole damn system is rotten, so why are you people raving at each other about one chimp-puppet politician? Even adding in his posse of Halliburton tools, you've still only begun to address the very tip of the iceberg.

By: Bulgaroktonos

Bulgaroktonos — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:14:25 -0800

And if that's true, then it still means there were available Nat'l Guardsman who weren't mobilized in a timely fashion (i.e., on Monday.) So either they weren't available because of the war, or they were available but weren't activated until several days into the crisis. Not a ringing endorsement of leadership either way There were plenty of National Guard troops available immediately after the crisis. There were a few hundred already working in the Superdome when the storm hit. A few thousand more were active within 24 hours.

By: ericb

ericb — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:16:14 -0800

I am retiring from this thread. Shabbat shalom, all! Right, just like before.

By: LeeJay

LeeJay — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:17:08 -0800

normy, I just wanted to say thanks for posting that letter from your friend. It's easy for me to sit here and try to analyze what's going on. I cannot even imagine what it is like to actually be living in it. I hope those supplies get in soon.

By: ericb

ericb — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:17:31 -0800

Ericb: are you lying or joking or what? Joking. It's clear from their website that their mission is one of a primary - and not tertiary - role -- as Dios and PP try to claim.

By: insomnia_lj

insomnia_lj — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:19:35 -0800

No wonder Paris Paramus is looking for another bridge to troll under... the one he was trolling under just collapsed.

By: amberglow

amberglow — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:21:08 -0800

The Burden on the Louisiana National Guard is more than the percentages would suggest. Exactly--i've posted it everywhere else, from USA Today: ... The problem for Louisiana and Mississippi isn't how many troops are in Iraq, but rather the kind of soldiers who are there, said Dave McGinnis, a military analyst who specializes in National Guard personnel issues. "It's combat brigades, which are the types of units you need in these situations," he said. Combat brigades — large, self-sustaining units of about 3,000 troops — have the vehicles, communications equipment and structure to cope best with a natural disaster. In Louisiana, communications and mobility are especially critical because most of New Orleans is without water, power and telephone service. ... And Bulgar they may have been available, but they weren't sent. Until today there were far less than 10,000 in the region working.

By: aramaic

aramaic — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:21:23 -0800

CNN has an interesting bit on the disconnect between officials and the real world. Note, if you will, the contrast between the what the officials say, and what the people actually on location are saying. Then compare & contrast with some of the opinions expressed in this thread.

By: mr.curmudgeon

mr.curmudgeon — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:21:59 -0800

"How do you do that greasemonkey thing. I feel sick." http://greasemonkey.mozdev.org/ I'm going to block PP's posts as well. Reading his "thoughts" is about as comforting as a glass catheter.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:22:15 -0800

"what bothers me is the abject failure of government. Bush's photo ops were irritating, but didn't dampen my relief that relief was finally on the way." Agreed. More or less we're on the same wavelength. "So, since other people disagree with you, we're all hypocrites?" Yeah, pretty much everyone who disagrees with me is a hypocrite. ...oh, wait, let me log back in as Paris.

By: insomnia_lj

insomnia_lj — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:28:39 -0800

There were a few hundred already working in the Superdome when the storm hit. Wow... they sure got that place under control quick, didn't they? No slighting those who were there, but obviously they were completely inadequate to the task. "A few thousand more were active within 24 hours." But how many of them were in New Orleans? Activiating units 24 hours later doesn't mean that all of those troops are actually on the ground helping people. Mayor Nagin requested 40,000 troops, ASAFP. Clearly, he didn't get that.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:29:33 -0800

aramaic : - wow.

By: mosch

mosch — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:34:32 -0800

Paris: Why'd you bother with that big cherade about being more intelligent and understanding, if this is how you're going to act? So far in this thread you've: -taken an unprovoked swing at John Kerry and Howard Dean -repeatedly proved that you can't spell tertiary -randomly insulted France -stated that you want a MeFite to fall down a well and rot to death -called 49% a small minority (in order to slight non-Republican voters) -mischaracterized complaints about Bush's Guard Service -insulted John Kerry for his service in Vietnam -quit the thread (then kept posting one liners) Anybody who takes ParisParamus as anything more than a troll is deluded.

By: Bulgaroktonos

Bulgaroktonos — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:35:15 -0800

The phrase used in the link I provided was "on duty", I'm pretty sure those troops were on the ground doing things within 24 hours. The problem here is that the level of response needed was greater than expected. We weren't expecting to have to retake the city from rioters in addition to rescue work. A much larger force was needed for that task, and a force of that size takes a lot longer to put together.

By: mosch

mosch — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:36:01 -0800

(cherade is an accepted alternative spelling for charade, in the PPED v3)

By: ericb

ericb — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:48:28 -0800

Halliburton gets NOLA clean-up contract.

By: TwelveTwo

TwelveTwo — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:50:01 -0800

Huh!

By: maryh

maryh — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:53:01 -0800

Well if that don't beat all!

By: mr.curmudgeon

mr.curmudgeon — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 14:54:21 -0800

Wow. Rep Brad Miller, on the floor of Congress, just today: "The Bush crowd says now is not the time for finger pointing. How distasteful it would be for partisanship to intrude in this tragic time? What pious, hypocritical crap." ... "I know that this administration thinks that accountability is an ephemeral thing. If there is an attempt at accountability too soon, it's finger pointing. If there is an attempt at accountability too late, then it's something you should get over. There is just a moment for accountability. "Mr. Speaker, tell me when that moment will be. Tell me precisely when the moment will come for accountability for the failures of our response, for the failures of our planning that have led to the devastation and the hardships that we are see now. "And Mr. Speaker, tell me where the line forms to ask hard questions. I yield back the balance of my time." I'd like to stand in that line as well.

By: rush

rush — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 15:02:01 -0800

Joking. It's clear from their website that their mission is one of a primary - and not tertiary - role -- as Dios and PP try to claim. - ericb ericb, please read my post. It should clearly illustrate how FEMA is in a tertiary role. You're referencing the PR on their website, and I am paraphrasing a response training manual. You pick.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 15:09:57 -0800

I'm kind of amazed how many 'get-dios' comments were posted I wish I could say I was amazed, but I'm afraid it's par for the course. I don't agree with dios's politics, but he has a right to express his feeling that other MeFites are leaping at the chance to make political hay of this. And yes, others have a right to disagree, but I don't get the vicious, personal nature of the attacks. Whatever your differences with him, dios is actually doing something to help the victims, as are many of you; can we set aside our politics at least to the extent of making allowances for everyone's nerves being on edge today? Halliburton gets NOLA clean-up contract. I wish I could say I was amazed...

By: ericb

ericb — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 15:16:19 -0800

Watching CNN ... the fires -- on the river's edge, in the 9th. District and across the street from the W Hotel -- are spreading in New Orleans.

By: b_thinky

b_thinky — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 15:22:10 -0800

amberglow: "maybe you guys don't realize that this is bigger than just the horrors in New Orleans--when we are attacked again, we're actually seeing what the response would be. We're seeing that Homeland Security doesn't actually help people in the Homeland. People are starving, and dying--still." Yes, if Al Qaeda can destroy a swath of land the size of Idaho, cut off the power, end oil production, completely flood entire major cities, destroy most of the roads leading to those cities AND kill the food, water and medicine supplies to those areas, we're pretty much screwed. Nature is more powerful than man. A terrorist attack ruins a car, a building, a train, a tunnel, a bridge, and maybe on their most successful day an entire city block. This is infinitely larger. Why is it so hard for people to realize this is harder than snapping your fingers?

By: b_thinky

b_thinky — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 15:25:47 -0800

Also, this will probably be a problem for the Republicans. Turnabout it fair play. Just as the GOP made it impossible for Clinton to operate through partisanship, accusations and innuendo, the Democrats have done to Bush. Just as the GOP has used 9/11 to win elections, the Democrats will use Katrina to win theirs. Democrats will win and nothing will change. Real people will continue to suffer while the politicians continue to play the blame game.

By: ericb

ericb — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 15:26:52 -0800

"I think [the sluggish federal response] puts into question all of the Homeland Security and Northern Command planning for the last four years, because if we can't respond faster than this to an event we saw coming across the Gulf for days, then why do we think we're prepared to respond to a nuclear or biological attack?" - former House Speaker Newt Gingrich.

By: b_thinky

b_thinky — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 15:35:18 -0800

Finally, I would just hope that we can wait to assess blame until the problem is solved. We know nothing more than what we see on TV. What was the best case scenario for Katrina? What was the worst? How close were we to either one? What are the procedures that needed to be followed? Who was supposed to make what calls? Did anyone fail to make them? Is the entire procedure messed up? IMO, a number of things could have been done better: 1) The levies, obviously. Blame who you will for that. If people at any level would have treated the matter urgently it would have been taken care of. The Bush admin did not fund the project fully, but the people of NO or LA could have pushed harder or dug into their own coffers. 2) The evacuation should have been more extensive. City buses could have gone through the poor neighborhoods to pick up those without transportation and taken them either to the Superdome or out of town. 3) Supply ships should have been at the ready off the coast. I think that's pretty much it. We don't know that people could have been evacuated any faster. It took over 24 hrs to evacuate 1m people when there were roads, so you know it's going to be a challenge to evacuate 100,000 when there are none. So best case, there should have been less people stranded and more supplies to pass out to those who were. That's about all we know for now.

By: scody

scody — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 15:43:14 -0800

mosch: stated that you want a MeFite to fall down a well and rot to death Oh, actually, I'm the one who said that to Paris. I hope he dies in a well because A) since we're all going to die one way or another, and B) Paris evidently doesn't think that the government is really suited for rescuing people in need during a disaster (like the several members of my coworker's family who have been trapped since Monday), there might be just a bit of room in this brutal world for a little karmic justice. b_thinky: The levies, obviously. Blame who you will for that. If people at any level would have treated the matter urgently it would have been taken care of. The Bush admin did not fund the project fully, but the people of NO or LA could have pushed harder or dug into their own coffers. Would that be the coffers of the people of the poorest major city in the country? Fuck, does your local city government have immediate access to a few hundred million dollars in the wake of the feds cutting funding to such projects? Mine doesn't, and I live in Los Angeles, which happens to be filled with the rich. How successful has your state been in just "pushing harder" to make the feds reinstate lost monies? My god, do you have the most rudimentary idea how local, state, and federal taxation and funding actually work?

By: mosch

mosch — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 16:08:49 -0800

Oh, actually, I'm the one who said that to Paris. In that case, shame on you. ParisParamus says a lot of very questionable things, but death wishes just help the dialogue spiral downward.

By: Armitage Shanks

Armitage Shanks — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 16:14:59 -0800

Just as the GOP made it impossible for Clinton to operate through partisanship, accusations and innuendo, the Democrats have done to Bush. The Republicans control the House and Senate. WTF are you talking about?

By: scody

scody — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 16:18:25 -0800

In that case, shame on you. ParisParamus says a lot of very questionable things, but death wishes just help the dialogue spiral downward. Shame on me? Save your finger-shaking for the incompetents in charge of this country whose inactions assured that thousands more people died this week than would have otherwise. Also, I didn't wish for Paris's death per se. We're all going to die one day -- you, me, ParisParamus, G.W. Bush, Fats Domino, your parents, my nephews, your cat. I wished for the manner of his death to befit what he has preached in life. Doesn't matter to me when he falls down that well, yelling for help that doesn't come -- it could be fifty years from now, after he lives a long and hearty life. Fine by me.

By: b_thinky

b_thinky — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:03:51 -0800

scody: Louisiana requested $82 million for flood prevention project and the Bush administration gave them about $14 million of that request. So if by "a few hundred million" you mean "$62 million," the answer would be, yes, most major ciites have projects of those scales quite often. The Louisiana Superdome was built in 1971 for $131 million (how much would that be if you adjusted for inflation?). Was any of it federally funded? How much money does NO get from the feds to host the Superbowl every 3 years or so? Local governments ask for federal money all the time. The answer is usually "no" or "OK, but not nearly the amount you want." The whole point of having states is so people in a general area can pay for their own shit. If anyone cares to look at actual facts and numbers, the whole argument about federal funding for the NO flood project is absurd. The money is not being diverted to Iraq. The Army Corps of Engineers budget is just about the same in 2006 as it was in 2001 ($4.3 bn vs $4.7 bn). The mere suggestion that George W Bush is personally responsible for not funding this project is absurd. $82m is what percentage of $4.7b? Not a lot. This project was small potatoes.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:05:07 -0800

Halliburton gets NOLA clean-up contract. *attempts to fight off cynicsm* Dammit! *fails* “Just as the GOP made it impossible for Clinton to operate through partisanship, accusations and innuendo, the Democrats have done to Bush. “ b_thinky, exactly what friggin bizzaro universe do you come from? “I would just hope that we can wait to assess blame until the problem is solved.” I am SOO glad you’re not in charge. I’m SOO tempted to be Col. Jessup here. (“You ever serve in a forward unit son?”) Lets not discipline the deserter now, lets not shoot him, let’s wait until the court martial to assess blame. Horse manure. And more than amply addressed upthread. “death wishes just help the dialogue spiral downward.” You would think so wouldn’t you? Yet it goes on unperterbed, endlessly baiting. You don’t blame the guy who isn’t swinging his fists when a fight breaks out. I’d be happy if it stops. However it stops. No one likes to be taunted and distracted endlessly. Do it enough to anyone and they’re liable to lose their temper. Which again, is what PP has stated he is doing on Metafilter.

By: b_thinky

b_thinky — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:05:15 -0800

albeit very important potatoes.

By: b_thinky

b_thinky — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:10:40 -0800

b_thinky's logic: 1) there is a problem 2) work to solve the problem 3) find out who caused the problem 4) deal with it from there smedleyman's logic: 1) THERE IS A PROBLEM (shoots most visible person in head) 2) now what?

By: zoogleplex

zoogleplex — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:12:37 -0800

PP only gets away with what he says here because he's hiding in his apartment typing away on the Internet. If he actually went out on the street in his home of Park Slope, Brooklyn, among real people who are discussing this, and spouted his ejaculations with the glee he evinces here, he would probably be beaten to death by an angry mob. He sickens me beyond belief. Classic passive-aggressive sociopath. "shabbat shalom, all!" You defile that blessing and the Lord that gave it to you, PP.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:16:21 -0800

“Just as the GOP made it impossible for Clinton to operate through partisanship,” And since you brought up Clinton - just how urgent was it to investigate him for adultery while the country was as much ‘at war’ as we are now? Plenty of other scandals there. I was outraged at what happened at Waco - yet the same lack of accountability bullshit. You did not assert this, but it seems to be a common universal failing amongst wingnuts and currently Republicans - why is that wrong when it’s on Clinton’s watch, but oh, no one could have seen this coming when Bush is at the helm. It’s his job to see it coming. Or rather, to have people who see it coming. They did. His administration ignored it. I’m really tired of this selective focus thinking. Do people not absorb all the facts? Certainly there are other factors. Lots of them. Certainly other people are to blame, blah blah blah. When it comes to the political end - Bush was holding the stick when it happened as well as when people were saying they should be ready for when it happens. He fucked it up. How hard is that to admit?

By: Foosnark

Foosnark — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:19:10 -0800

The economy is somewhere between good and great. I think the Bush administration's foreign policy is an overwelming success. followup question? Followup question: what are you on?

By: b_thinky

b_thinky — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:27:38 -0800

"why is that wrong when it’s on Clinton’s watch, but oh, no one could have seen this coming when Bush is at the helm." um... I agree with you. I'm just saying figure out who's at fault here before you go blaming people. The mayor F'd up, the governor F'd up and Bush F'd up by not cracking the whip on them sooner. But how much better could it have been? It's possible we're bitching about nothing.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:29:53 -0800

"smedleyman's logic: 1) THERE IS A PROBLEM (shoots most visible person in head) 2) now what?" You got me there b_thinky. I do enjoy shooting people in the head. Heh heh. Yeah. That’s not a metaphor kid. It gives me a big hard on. I’m thinking of re-upping just for the action. But I suspect the issue is clouded by the fact that I’m focusing on #3. Since there isn’t much I can do on #1 or #2 and there’s lots Bush can do. You seem focused on #1 or #2. Good on ya. Except for we’re both sitting here typing about it. I’ve done my bit. Plan to do more. But again, I’m not Bush. But I am a voter. So that #3 weighs on my mind. I don’t see anyone else fitting the bill except for the man at the helm. Also - how do you propose to deal with #4? Torches and pitchforks? Particularly when we have people who support Bush or their chosen politico no matter what.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:34:55 -0800

Metafilter: we're bitching about nothing. There’s plenty of links on here, reports on what is to come, the structuring of FEMA, choosing cronies for leadership positions. This stuff was in a lot of people’s faces since way back. It could have been a lot better. Proper preparation preceeds perfect performance. This looked perfect did it? Therefore the preparation was flawed. “Bush F'd up” Glad to see that concession. Not much more necessary really. I readily concede the corollary, other people F’ed up too. Much of the system was F’ed up. Perhaps I’m too old school. I blame the boss.

By: Freen

Freen — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:35:12 -0800

(before Bush shows up) Metafilter: Where the fuck is Bush? (after he shows up) Metafilter: Fucking photo-op! Three days late. I'd have loved it if he had a photo op hours after the storm hit with the national guard.

By: mullingitover

mullingitover — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 17:57:00 -0800

Halliburton gets NOLA clean-up contract. I'm sure they had the most competitive bid.

By: dreamsign

dreamsign — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 18:17:24 -0800

Eh, not to go looking for more trouble, but what's the deal with that, mullingitover? Where I'm from, there's a pretty clear -- and heavily enforced -- system of tenders. Does this not exist in the States, or is there some legal or de facto out for the White House?

By: schoolgirl report

schoolgirl report — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 18:21:43 -0800

But how much better could it have been? (Stolen from Atrios, via the BBC) Dec. 26, 0059 GMT Quake hits. Dec. 26, 0130 GMT Tsunami hits. Dec. 28, Relief operation begins. Jan 1. US Aircraft carrier arrives in Indonesia, sending helicopters, heavy machinery, and water purifcation equipment to Banda Aceh. That's five days from disaster to the arrival of US aid. And that was across the ocean in response to a disaster that occured with zero warning. Here, the local/state/feds had at least two days warning of the occurance of an event they had been planning for for years. Once Bush declared a state of emergency, choppers should have been warming on tarmacs everywhere, stuffed to the gills with food, water, and medicine. Swift boats, air boats and Zodiacs should have been prepped and ready to reach those in need should the levees be topped/breached. And because the feds declared the SoE, FEMA and the feds should have taken an active role in making sure the local and state services were up for the task. Meanwhile, the locals should have commandeered every city bus, private bus and school bus in the area to effectuate their mandatory evacuation. Once the winds stopped, those same choppers should have been on the ground at the Superdome and other dry locations, bringing in law enforcement and medical personnel. Meanwhile, other aircraft should have been flying over the less flooded areas of the city, informing citizens where to go for help. So I'd say in this case things could have been a whole heck of a lot better, yeah.

By: bshort

bshort — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 20:16:07 -0800

schoolgirl report - Excellent point.

By: amberglow

amberglow — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 20:17:29 -0800

and there's still not enough food and water in New Orleans--Aaron Brown said many people came back empty-handed.

By: mullingitover

mullingitover — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 20:24:34 -0800

Dreamsign : Eh, not to go looking for more trouble, but what's the deal with that, mullingitover? Where I'm from, there's a pretty clear -- and heavily enforced -- system of tenders. Does this not exist in the States, or is there some legal or de facto out for the White House? Let's just say there have been some questionable dealings in the recent past.

By: Heywood Mogroot

Heywood Mogroot — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 20:28:41 -0800

Meanwhile, the locals should have commandeered every city bus, private bus and school bus in the area to effectuate their mandatory evacuation that's great in theory but it's also indistnguishable from theft.

By: amberglow

amberglow — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 20:31:35 -0800

... Department of Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff told reporters at a Washington news conference. "We have to nevertheless proceed with our priorities in terms of how we deal with this unprecedented disaster. ... ... The Louisiana Department of Environmental Quality said a flyover revealed a leak from tanks capable of holding 2 million barrels of fuel. "There is oil leaking, but we don't have access to the area," said Jean Kelly, spokeswoman for the agency, adding that Homeland Security officials are restricting access."...

By: mosch

mosch — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 20:34:24 -0800

It's pretty clear that there's enough blame to go around a lot of people. I'm hoping that at some point somebody can give me a good explanation of why there isn't an abundance of potable water in NOLA, and why it took so long to get the water they have. Most people can live a relatively long time with little or no food, and while wearing dirty clothes, so long as they have clean water to drink.

By: mr_crash_davis

mr_crash_davis — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 20:55:30 -0800

"Also. AlexReynolds hasn't posted anything in this thread, unless his comments were deleted." Rothko==AlexReynolds. For those who are keeping score.

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 21:16:46 -0800

schoolgirl report ... precisely my thinking ... a LOT of people dropped the ball, including bush ... they thought the other guy would do it ... or they thought the people working for them would do it ... or they assumed that some things would just take care of themselves ... or they thought they had to "follow rules and procedures" ... or assumed they were well-informed because they have people reporting to them i like the mayor of houston ... he took over a civic convention that had future engagements for refugees and dared the organizations involved to sue him THAT'S the kind of thinking we need in this disaster ... get the job DONE!

By: dhartung

dhartung — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 21:23:46 -0800

icontemplate: I see 1/2 ton trucks, Humvees, and ... aha, you must mean the HEMTT -- the Heavy Expanded Mobility Tactical Truck. It's really just a more advanced version of the HET, which was pretty much a standard semi-tractor with armor and camouflage paint. But damn if it doesn't look like something of out Aliens ...

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 21:27:23 -0800

the president isn't the only person to blame

By: swift

swift — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 21:37:32 -0800

From the first thread marked with the 'Katrina' tag. Mmm, weather...best of the web. There should be at least a couple more before the season ends, so get read to cut and paste. And the "big one"? Almost every hurricane could be the big one. Pour me a hurricane... posted by justgary at 9:46 PM EST on August 27

By: Rothko

Rothko — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 21:40:38 -0800

For those who are keeping score. posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:55 PM EST on September 2 [!] Like yourself, for example.

By: davidmsc

davidmsc — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 22:49:03 -0800

ParisParamus...behavior is far outside of the mainstream and does not represent the great majority of the people who use this site..." Not quite: PP's thoughts represent the mainstream of America, to a large degree...but not the majority opinion of MeFi, as MeFi is heavily - HEAVILY - slanted to the Left.

By: Mick

Mick — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 22:49:07 -0800

Mississippi and Alabama were at the eye of the hurricane. Thing are going smoothly there. Louisiana was periphery, things are hell there. The levy breaks (which happened on Tuesday) is the major reason for this. But incompetence on the part of local and state officials plays a much larger role than incompetence at the federal level (which there is still plenty of).

By: normy

normy — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 23:23:26 -0800

Gov. Kathleen Blanco Friday night called on President Bush to order the expeditious return to the state of the 256th Brigade Combat team of the National Guard which is now serving in Iraq because they are needed in Hurricane Katrina cleanup and rescue efforts. The unit, based in Lafayette, is expected to be phased out of Iraq and return to the state in the coming weeks. “They are urgently needed needed here at home,’’ Blanco said. She told Bush that the unit is needed to become “part of the recovery efforts in their home state." -- Times-Picayune

By: bshort

bshort — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 23:37:44 -0800

ParisParamus: I think the Bush administration's foreign policy is an overwelming success. But do you still think Bush should be impeached?

By: amberglow

amberglow — Fri, 02 Sep 2005 23:39:07 -0800

Not quite: PP's thoughts represent the mainstream of America, to a large degree Not at all--the majority of Americans have disapproved of this administration for a while now, and unofficial polls show we also don't think Bush is handling Katrina properly at all. (energy and gas polls are even worse for Bush, btw)

By: bwg

bwg — Sat, 03 Sep 2005 06:35:20 -0800

MetaFilter: ignore the a-holes in this thread MetaFilter: I'm not wasting any more time here. That about sums it up. I just hope the people who need help the most get it as soon as is humanly possible.

By: lodurr

lodurr — Sat, 03 Sep 2005 08:42:07 -0800

davidmsc: PP's thoughts represent the mainstream of America, to a large degree... Yeh, sure -- in the libertarian [note lower-case 'L'] fantasy of American views and values.... As for why we care about Bush when it's clearly a failure of his operatives: Well, that pretty much states it. As I hinted up-thread, and as smedleyman has stated more clearly, this is a failure of management that stems from Bush's philosophy of leadership. People who work for him cannot be "successful" under normal conditions unless they taylor their view of reality to match his. (Personally, I think it's frank lysenkoism, but hey, I don't have the energy to fight about that with the vocal libertarian [note lower-case "L"] on MeFi.) So when a crisis hits, they diddle and twiddle and don't do anythign real until they hear from him. That is, most do. Fortunately, there are professionals at the local level and in service-driven organizations like the Coast Guard who don't act based on GWB's idea of what's "real." Unfortunately, they're not in a position to save the day in their "primary" role without a lot of help from the "tertiary" actors....

By: ericb

ericb — Sat, 03 Sep 2005 11:38:48 -0800

It should clearly illustrate how FEMA is in a tertiary role. You're referencing the PR on their website, and I am paraphrasing a response training manual. You pick. Okay, I'll pick, but from the Department of Homeland Security -- which oversees FEMA:

"In the event of a terrorist attack, natural disaster or other large-scale emergency, the Department of Homeland Security will assume primary responsibility...for ensuring that emergency response professionals are prepared for any situation. This will entail providing a coordinated, comprehensive federal response to any large-scale crisis and mounting a swift and effective recovery effort."

By: lodurr

lodurr — Sat, 03 Sep 2005 13:55:01 -0800

... In any case, you small-gov zealots have a really odd understanding of the term "tertiary." You seem to use one definition ("third in command") when you describe the role, and another definition ("third to respond") when you make excuses for FEMA and the circle-jerk crowd surrounding the President. That their role is "tertiary" should not mean that they have to wait four days to get there; it should mean that they take orders from the local authorities -- assuming the local authorities are in a position to direct the show. If they aren't, then any fool can see a failure to take initiative is tantamount to professional misconduct.

By: caddis

caddis — Sun, 04 Sep 2005 09:33:19 -0800

Whew? "They killed a man here last night," Steve Banka, 28, told the Reuters news agency before he left on Sunday. A body lies face down in water next to the Superdome Death was everywhere, both inside and outside the Superdome "A young lady was being raped and stabbed. "And the sounds of her screaming got to this man and so he ran out into the street to get help from troops, to try to flag down a passing truck of them. "He jumped up on the truck's windscreen and they shot him dead," Mr Banka said. BBC News, Sunday, September 4, 2005

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Sun, 04 Sep 2005 23:20:17 -0800

MeFi is heavily - HEAVILY - slanted to the Left Because really there are only two possible spheres of thought. Good lord.... If wingnuts generate a thought from a perspective not involving either " 'liberal' " or " 'conservative' "* paradigms is it stomped out, crowded out or does it die from loneliness? *note the terms liberal and conservative are in double quotes because I have no idea what the hell they mean to readers relative to their own perspective, like any doublespeak.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Sun, 04 Sep 2005 23:20:29 -0800

/sorry for the derail there.

By: lodurr

lodurr — Mon, 05 Sep 2005 19:25:17 -0800

What derail? I think it's in order in any discussion to point out when nobody participating understands one of hte most commonly used terms.