From the If You Can't Beat 'Em Department
September 4, 2005 10:50 PM Subscribe
Is the former Republican mayor of New Orleans really blameless? Not by a long shot. From lefty blog Lenin's Tomb, which points to evidence that New Orleans officials "never put plans into place" to evacuate the poorest of the poor. [thanks, Aknaton]
Interestingly, the linked-to post (and much of that blog) appears to be written by one of my favorite authors, China Mieville. Neat.
posted by Justinian at 11:00 PM on September 4, 2005
posted by Justinian at 11:00 PM on September 4, 2005
Heywood, I'm trying to stay reasonable in the midst of this, so if you could explain your point, that'd be helpful.
posted by mediareport at 11:04 PM on September 4, 2005
posted by mediareport at 11:04 PM on September 4, 2005
Are liberals placing some blame on local officials now?
Damn, I need a scorecard to keep up with all this.
posted by mischief at 11:07 PM on September 4, 2005
Damn, I need a scorecard to keep up with all this.
posted by mischief at 11:07 PM on September 4, 2005
Only officials that can be tied to Bush.
posted by drscroogemcduck at 11:11 PM on September 4, 2005
posted by drscroogemcduck at 11:11 PM on September 4, 2005
So, uh, I guess that means that those officials aren't to blame, then. Because... they can be tied to Bush.
Yep. Makes sense to me.
posted by verb at 11:22 PM on September 4, 2005
Yep. Makes sense to me.
posted by verb at 11:22 PM on September 4, 2005
Are liberals placing some blame on local officials now?
Yes, when they're backed up with facts. It's the liberal way, rather than mindlessly trying to deflect blame away from the incompetent, as seems to be happening in the White House war room at the moment.
The contrast is actually fairly striking. Very quickly, liberals in the USA started uncovering the egregious pattern of federal neglect towards NOLA's levees and warnings about potential catastrophes, along with incompetence at FEMA. The response on the right when trying to point fingers at the local officials has been to lie about Blanco's actions regarding the declaration of a state of emergency and point to context-less aerial photos of flooded buses.
posted by deanc at 11:22 PM on September 4, 2005
Yes, when they're backed up with facts. It's the liberal way, rather than mindlessly trying to deflect blame away from the incompetent, as seems to be happening in the White House war room at the moment.
The contrast is actually fairly striking. Very quickly, liberals in the USA started uncovering the egregious pattern of federal neglect towards NOLA's levees and warnings about potential catastrophes, along with incompetence at FEMA. The response on the right when trying to point fingers at the local officials has been to lie about Blanco's actions regarding the declaration of a state of emergency and point to context-less aerial photos of flooded buses.
posted by deanc at 11:22 PM on September 4, 2005
It's the liberal way, rather than mindlessly trying to deflect blame away from the incompetent
If only that were true. I've been really surprised at some of the jerking knees I've seen on the left re: Katrina. FEMA's fucked, yes, and it's the current administration's fault, yes, but it's just plain idiotic to absolve local and state officials of any responsibility simply because they're nominal Democrats.
posted by mediareport at 11:28 PM on September 4, 2005
If only that were true. I've been really surprised at some of the jerking knees I've seen on the left re: Katrina. FEMA's fucked, yes, and it's the current administration's fault, yes, but it's just plain idiotic to absolve local and state officials of any responsibility simply because they're nominal Democrats.
posted by mediareport at 11:28 PM on September 4, 2005
But what should have been done? Where can you evacuate 100,000 people to that is protected and not also in the path of the storm? I'm not defending, because obviously just about any kind of plan would have been better than that which existed, but I'm truly curious what would have been optimum on the part of city officials.
Highly coordinated efforts between the mayor and the governor for a statewide effort in advance of the storm could and should happen, obviously. But you can't just take thousands and thousands of people and dump them in another state; even states that are willing to extend every assistance in the aftermath wouldn't be so pleased to deal with a flood of people to be housed, fed, and cared for medically, well in advance of a storm that might not even hit New Orleans.
So that leaves your own state... you can try to bus 100,000 people to various parts of the state least likely to be affected by the storm, but again, where to put them? High School gymnasiums, I guess... But you have to have all those places equipped with food, water, doctors, law enforcement. And when you've spent all the money required to do this, and your funds are completely gone, what do you do for the next hurricane that might hit New Orleans. And how do you answer charges about not being able to supply basic city services, or pay police officers or teachers because you've spent all this money? And if the storm barely touches New Orleans, you're really in for a world of hate.
Remember that it's simply not logistically possible to wait 'til the very last minute when it's quite certain the storm is going to hit the city full force; all this would have to be done well before that point. And then done again for the next big storm that looks like it might hit New Orleans and the lower parishes.
Yes, it should happen, it should be in place - but it still just wouldn't be possible without federal funding, and how likely is it that the government would go for this plan?
Maybe there's a simpler answer, and I just don't see it.
posted by taz at 11:35 PM on September 4, 2005
Highly coordinated efforts between the mayor and the governor for a statewide effort in advance of the storm could and should happen, obviously. But you can't just take thousands and thousands of people and dump them in another state; even states that are willing to extend every assistance in the aftermath wouldn't be so pleased to deal with a flood of people to be housed, fed, and cared for medically, well in advance of a storm that might not even hit New Orleans.
So that leaves your own state... you can try to bus 100,000 people to various parts of the state least likely to be affected by the storm, but again, where to put them? High School gymnasiums, I guess... But you have to have all those places equipped with food, water, doctors, law enforcement. And when you've spent all the money required to do this, and your funds are completely gone, what do you do for the next hurricane that might hit New Orleans. And how do you answer charges about not being able to supply basic city services, or pay police officers or teachers because you've spent all this money? And if the storm barely touches New Orleans, you're really in for a world of hate.
Remember that it's simply not logistically possible to wait 'til the very last minute when it's quite certain the storm is going to hit the city full force; all this would have to be done well before that point. And then done again for the next big storm that looks like it might hit New Orleans and the lower parishes.
Yes, it should happen, it should be in place - but it still just wouldn't be possible without federal funding, and how likely is it that the government would go for this plan?
Maybe there's a simpler answer, and I just don't see it.
posted by taz at 11:35 PM on September 4, 2005
Yes local officals are to blame. I don't have any problems saying that.
But what upsets me to no end is the spin. The 24/7 from the White House. The flat out lies. If you want to get into this debate w/ me fine, I will post you link after link.
Americans are dieing right this very second. LSU has a MASH unit set-up. Think about that. In the United States we have a MASH unit set-up.
If this whole thing and how the government responded doesn't make everyone sick, regardless of party, I just don't know what to say.
posted by webranding at 11:40 PM on September 4, 2005
But what upsets me to no end is the spin. The 24/7 from the White House. The flat out lies. If you want to get into this debate w/ me fine, I will post you link after link.
Americans are dieing right this very second. LSU has a MASH unit set-up. Think about that. In the United States we have a MASH unit set-up.
If this whole thing and how the government responded doesn't make everyone sick, regardless of party, I just don't know what to say.
posted by webranding at 11:40 PM on September 4, 2005
It was pretty predictable that the NOLA mayor would be the subject of a smear campaign after having the audacity to suggest that the federal government's response, was. . . shall we say, less than optimal. Had this happened a couple of years ago, the byline would have been "Novak", eh? Rove is getting predictable.
posted by spock at 11:40 PM on September 4, 2005
posted by spock at 11:40 PM on September 4, 2005
mediareport: I think Heywood's "straw man" allusion is explained in full over here, in a thread pointing some fingers at Nagin. And I mean, sure, nobody's totally blameless here. So let's hang those effigies and beat them like piñatas! Let's finally let the federal government be!
posted by jennanemone at 11:41 PM on September 4, 2005
posted by jennanemone at 11:41 PM on September 4, 2005
Why the fuck do shitheads - by shitheads I mean specifically those constantly attacking 'liberals' (or what have you - but here, liberals) - insist on limiting the scope of your thought?
For example: I use invectives such as 'fuck' and 'shithead' in a non-repetative manner sprinkled throughout my statements as emphasis rather than relying on profanity as a universal catch all as many people with poor reasoning and verbal skills do. A similar term is 'liberals.'
By exclaiming: All liberals are "X" or "Y" is what all liberals do/think/say, etc. you not only reduce your sphere of thought not only to two poles in which one is 'right' and the other is 'left ' (and naturally - 'wrong') but you reduce reception in the scope of arguments you can respond to. Hence you can only make vapid groundless assertions in which you appear to be ignoring your erstwhile opponent and frustrating the great mass of others who don't fit smoothly into either sphere of thought by attempting to consign them to a single course while the depths around the entire issue remain unplumbed much perhaps as Ahab was lashed to Moby Dick by his own myopia.
I happen to agree with placing blame on the President and of course on Nagin as well. For my part I do this simply because he is the man at the helm, but also, after reading the article because he ignored lives in favor of property and other misdeeds all spelled out clearly there.
What then does my political opinion have to do with that?
Because he is or isn't tied to Bush he should be excused or be blamed somehow more?
Where then is the political thinking when it comes to right and wrong? Fair and unfair?
This man clearly is in the latter of both. How is that fact altered in the slightest degree by the political opinion of someone pointing that out?
Nature is a fact. Politics are a matter of opinion. Guess which one bends to the other?
posted by Smedleyman at 11:44 PM on September 4, 2005
For example: I use invectives such as 'fuck' and 'shithead' in a non-repetative manner sprinkled throughout my statements as emphasis rather than relying on profanity as a universal catch all as many people with poor reasoning and verbal skills do. A similar term is 'liberals.'
By exclaiming: All liberals are "X" or "Y" is what all liberals do/think/say, etc. you not only reduce your sphere of thought not only to two poles in which one is 'right' and the other is 'left ' (and naturally - 'wrong') but you reduce reception in the scope of arguments you can respond to. Hence you can only make vapid groundless assertions in which you appear to be ignoring your erstwhile opponent and frustrating the great mass of others who don't fit smoothly into either sphere of thought by attempting to consign them to a single course while the depths around the entire issue remain unplumbed much perhaps as Ahab was lashed to Moby Dick by his own myopia.
I happen to agree with placing blame on the President and of course on Nagin as well. For my part I do this simply because he is the man at the helm, but also, after reading the article because he ignored lives in favor of property and other misdeeds all spelled out clearly there.
What then does my political opinion have to do with that?
Because he is or isn't tied to Bush he should be excused or be blamed somehow more?
Where then is the political thinking when it comes to right and wrong? Fair and unfair?
This man clearly is in the latter of both. How is that fact altered in the slightest degree by the political opinion of someone pointing that out?
Nature is a fact. Politics are a matter of opinion. Guess which one bends to the other?
posted by Smedleyman at 11:44 PM on September 4, 2005
It was pretty predictable that the NOLA mayor would be the subject of a smear campaign
Riight. Because we all know Lenin's Tomb is a hotbed of Rovian spin. Whatever.
taz: And if the storm barely touches New Orleans, you're really in for a world of hate.
Exactly. The mayor was in a tough spot; we all know how easy it is to second-guess a storm that's already happened. But from where I'm sitting, it's looking increasingly possible that the last 100,000 were never part of the local evacuation plan at all. How is that Cheney's fault again?
posted by mediareport at 11:47 PM on September 4, 2005
Riight. Because we all know Lenin's Tomb is a hotbed of Rovian spin. Whatever.
taz: And if the storm barely touches New Orleans, you're really in for a world of hate.
Exactly. The mayor was in a tough spot; we all know how easy it is to second-guess a storm that's already happened. But from where I'm sitting, it's looking increasingly possible that the last 100,000 were never part of the local evacuation plan at all. How is that Cheney's fault again?
posted by mediareport at 11:47 PM on September 4, 2005
How is that Cheney's fault again?
mediareport, you must be joking. You don't know the definition of a straw man, or rather, you're trying to be reasonable and you present that as a question?
This is not directed at you, but in a similar vein - why do the religious neo-cons insist on blaming the Gays, the secular, etc, but won't blame God when he is clearly their top guy?
What is this insistance on this sadomasichistic blaming the victim when God clearly has all the power when it comes to hurricanes?
By extension then, since Bush feels he was put in position by God....
posted by Smedleyman at 11:52 PM on September 4, 2005
mediareport, you must be joking. You don't know the definition of a straw man, or rather, you're trying to be reasonable and you present that as a question?
This is not directed at you, but in a similar vein - why do the religious neo-cons insist on blaming the Gays, the secular, etc, but won't blame God when he is clearly their top guy?
What is this insistance on this sadomasichistic blaming the victim when God clearly has all the power when it comes to hurricanes?
By extension then, since Bush feels he was put in position by God....
posted by Smedleyman at 11:52 PM on September 4, 2005
/clearly I'm joking, even if you weren't.
posted by Smedleyman at 11:53 PM on September 4, 2005
posted by Smedleyman at 11:53 PM on September 4, 2005
mediareport: I think Heywood's "straw man" allusion is explained in full over here
No it's not. Only a moron would use local and state officials as an excuse to claim that "George Bush bears absolutely no responsibility" for the botched federal response. Talk about a straw man. Again, the deeper point is a simple one: It's not an either/or situation, despite the partisan hacks on both sides who are desperately trying to paint it that way.
I mean, do we want to prevent this happening again or not?
posted by mediareport at 11:54 PM on September 4, 2005
No it's not. Only a moron would use local and state officials as an excuse to claim that "George Bush bears absolutely no responsibility" for the botched federal response. Talk about a straw man. Again, the deeper point is a simple one: It's not an either/or situation, despite the partisan hacks on both sides who are desperately trying to paint it that way.
I mean, do we want to prevent this happening again or not?
posted by mediareport at 11:54 PM on September 4, 2005
So far, it looks like there might be plenty of blame to go around. It looks like the disaster in New Orleans was anticipated for a long time, so there were probably failures at multiple levels of government across multiple administrations. It might even suggest an institutional failure.
I'm sure that over time, we will identify many of the negligent. But it looks like what we need is something a little more fundamental than a personnel change. Consider NOLA in the wake of 9/11. It looks like we keep fighting yesterday's battles like they're the only ones to fight. Is terrorism really the biggest threat to this nation's security?
I suspect what will happen is a lot of recriminations about how this was totally forseeable for years and years, and we'll undertake a crash program of national levee overhaul. We'll form a Senate Levee Committee, and a panel to study all the failures that lead to the NOLA disaster. And after trillions of dollars of appropriations and constitution-damaging enhanced powers of eminent domain, we'll never have another flood disaster again, ever.
Meanwhile, something else will happen.
posted by Edgewise at 11:56 PM on September 4, 2005
I'm sure that over time, we will identify many of the negligent. But it looks like what we need is something a little more fundamental than a personnel change. Consider NOLA in the wake of 9/11. It looks like we keep fighting yesterday's battles like they're the only ones to fight. Is terrorism really the biggest threat to this nation's security?
I suspect what will happen is a lot of recriminations about how this was totally forseeable for years and years, and we'll undertake a crash program of national levee overhaul. We'll form a Senate Levee Committee, and a panel to study all the failures that lead to the NOLA disaster. And after trillions of dollars of appropriations and constitution-damaging enhanced powers of eminent domain, we'll never have another flood disaster again, ever.
Meanwhile, something else will happen.
posted by Edgewise at 11:56 PM on September 4, 2005
I'm pretty tired of "blame" all around. Blaming ain't the solution and if you ain't part of the solution.....
posted by Carbolic at 11:59 PM on September 4, 2005
posted by Carbolic at 11:59 PM on September 4, 2005
I mean, do we want to prevent this happening again or not?
posted by mediareport at 2:54 AM EST on September 5 [!]
The answer will be given at the end of 2006, when we head to the ballot boxes.
posted by Rothko at 12:00 AM on September 5, 2005
posted by mediareport at 2:54 AM EST on September 5 [!]
The answer will be given at the end of 2006, when we head to the ballot boxes.
posted by Rothko at 12:00 AM on September 5, 2005
I am placing blame because of the spin and lieing from the White House. I didn't vote for Bush and I don't much like him, but even up to this I would give him the benefit of the doubt. I guess I am stupid that way. But for him and his staff to come out and tell me things, things I know are not facts and think I am that shit-all-stupid is the last straw.
posted by webranding at 12:04 AM on September 5, 2005
posted by webranding at 12:04 AM on September 5, 2005
I've never said anything about Cheney, mediareport... But as far as federal funding is concerned, it's clear that upgrading the levees and pumping systems would have spared the city; and the only dead and injured people would have been direct victims of the storm itself.
Does it make more sense to try to move 100,000 people hundreds of miles (and supply all the services this entails) two or three times a year, or to do the necessary physical repairs and upgrades on the protection barriers?
I agree that the plan that existed was a failure and a disgrace, but I am completely honest when I say that I want to hear what the alternatives should have been. Obviously, since we are talking about local officials, those plans would have to have been covered by local budgets.
posted by taz at 12:04 AM on September 5, 2005
Does it make more sense to try to move 100,000 people hundreds of miles (and supply all the services this entails) two or three times a year, or to do the necessary physical repairs and upgrades on the protection barriers?
I agree that the plan that existed was a failure and a disgrace, but I am completely honest when I say that I want to hear what the alternatives should have been. Obviously, since we are talking about local officials, those plans would have to have been covered by local budgets.
posted by taz at 12:04 AM on September 5, 2005
Blaming ain't the solution and if you ain't part of the solution.....
This is proof how the Bush administration has totally infected our culture. When the HELL did demanding accountability from the guilty be something we should feel reluctant to do? Yeah, the LAST thing we would ever want to do is BLAME anyone for the failures of September 11th, the bad intelligence on WMDs, the quagmire in Iraq or, God forbid, the chaotic, ineffective repsonse of DHS, FEMA, and state governments all over the Gulf coast.
Cripes. It's like the people are desperate for the chance to place the Medal of Freedom around Brownie's and Chertoff's necks themselves.
posted by deanc at 12:07 AM on September 5, 2005
This is proof how the Bush administration has totally infected our culture. When the HELL did demanding accountability from the guilty be something we should feel reluctant to do? Yeah, the LAST thing we would ever want to do is BLAME anyone for the failures of September 11th, the bad intelligence on WMDs, the quagmire in Iraq or, God forbid, the chaotic, ineffective repsonse of DHS, FEMA, and state governments all over the Gulf coast.
Cripes. It's like the people are desperate for the chance to place the Medal of Freedom around Brownie's and Chertoff's necks themselves.
posted by deanc at 12:07 AM on September 5, 2005
As a footnote to comments above... the physical improvements could have/ should have been done any time in the last 20 or 30 years. It could have/ should have happened when Clinton was in office, for example.
posted by taz at 12:10 AM on September 5, 2005
posted by taz at 12:10 AM on September 5, 2005
Taz, there were multiple solutions. A better levy and pumping system. Don't change the course of the Mississippi so sediment is moved to the Gulf and not around NO. Reclaim the marsh lands as a natural barrier.
And I don't know, maybe the federal government could provide some support. Before you keep asking what could have been done, I strongly suggest you read the document Bush signed in 2004.
"Although the NRP recognizes that State and local authorities have a responsibility to ask for help, the NRP correctly provides a provision to take proactive steps to deal with a threat. On page 43 of the NRP the section is titled, "Proactive Federal Response to Catastrophic Events:"
The NRP establishes policies, procedures, and mechanisms for proactive Federal response to catastrophic events. A catastrophic event is any natural or manmade incident, including terrorism, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the population, infrastructure, environment, economy, national morale, and/or government functions. A catastrophic event could result in sustained national impacts over a prolonged period of time; almost immediately exceeds resources normally available to State, local, tribal, and private-sector authorities in the impacted area; and significantly interrupts governmental operations and emergency services to such an extent that national security could be threatened. All catastrophic events are Incidents of National Significance."
Does that sound like what happened in one paragraph?
posted by webranding at 12:13 AM on September 5, 2005
And I don't know, maybe the federal government could provide some support. Before you keep asking what could have been done, I strongly suggest you read the document Bush signed in 2004.
"Although the NRP recognizes that State and local authorities have a responsibility to ask for help, the NRP correctly provides a provision to take proactive steps to deal with a threat. On page 43 of the NRP the section is titled, "Proactive Federal Response to Catastrophic Events:"
The NRP establishes policies, procedures, and mechanisms for proactive Federal response to catastrophic events. A catastrophic event is any natural or manmade incident, including terrorism, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the population, infrastructure, environment, economy, national morale, and/or government functions. A catastrophic event could result in sustained national impacts over a prolonged period of time; almost immediately exceeds resources normally available to State, local, tribal, and private-sector authorities in the impacted area; and significantly interrupts governmental operations and emergency services to such an extent that national security could be threatened. All catastrophic events are Incidents of National Significance."
Does that sound like what happened in one paragraph?
posted by webranding at 12:13 AM on September 5, 2005
taz: Flooding has been a threat to NOLA for years and years and years. Bush may have dropped the ball but it's been dropped many times before. It's only been a question of time for years and years. It's not a new issue this is just the time the disaster has come to fruition. Not to excuse Bush, but by concentrating on Bush we miss the fact that this is the result of decades of neglect regarding a problem that was sure to occur at some point in time. NOLA has dodged the bullet so many times that the government in office has always figured they didn't need to address the problem because by the time the disaster occured it would be someone elses problem.
posted by Carbolic at 12:19 AM on September 5, 2005
posted by Carbolic at 12:19 AM on September 5, 2005
Here's the article referred to in full, in context as appropriate. (July 24, 2005 Times Picayune)
City, state and federal emergency officials are preparing to give the poorest of New Orleans' poor a historically blunt message: In the event of a major hurricane, you're on your own.
In scripted appearances being recorded now, officials such as Mayor Ray Nagin, local Red Cross Executive Director Kay Wilkins and City Council President Oliver Thomas drive home the word that the city does not have the resources to move out of harm's way an estimated 134,000 people without transportation.
In the video, made by the anti-poverty agency Total Community Action, they urge those people to make arrangements now by finding their own ways to leave the city in the event of an evacuation.
"You're responsible for your safety, and you should be responsible for the person next to you," Wilkins said in an interview. "If you have some room to get that person out of town, the Red Cross will have a space for that person outside the area. We can help you.
"But we don't have the transportation."
Officials are recording the evacuation message even as recent research by the University of New Orleans indicated that as many as 60 percent of the residents of most southeast Louisiana parishes would remain in their homes in the event of a Category 3 hurricane.
Their message will be distributed on hundreds of DVDs across the city. The DVDs' basic get-out-of-town message applies to all audiences, but the it is especially targeted to scores of churches and other groups heavily concentrated in Central City and other vulnerable, low-income neighborhoods, said the Rev. Marshall Truehill, head of Total Community Action.
"The primary message is that each person is primarily responsible for themselves, for their own family and friends," Truehill said.
In addition to the plea from Nagin, Thomas and Wilkins, video exhortations to make evacuation plans come from representatives of State Police and the National Weather Service, and from local officials such as Sen. Ann Duplessis, D-New Orleans, and State Rep. Arthur Morrell, D-New Orleans, said Allan Katz, whose advertising company is coordinating officials' scripts and doing the recording.
The speakers explain what to bring and what to leave behind. They advise viewers to bring personal medicines and critical legal documents, and tell them how to create a family communication plan. Even a representative of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals weighs in with a message on how to make the best arrangements for pets left behind.
Production likely will continue through August. Officials want to get the DVDs into the hands of pastors and community leaders as hurricane season reaches its height in September, Katz said.
Fleeing the storm
Believing that the low-lying city is too dangerous a place to shelter refugees, the Red Cross positioned its storm shelters on higher ground north of Interstate 10 several years ago. It dropped plans to care for storm victims in schools or other institutions in town.
Truehill, Wilkins and others said emergency preparedness officials still plan to deploy some Regional Transit Authority buses, school buses and perhaps even Amtrak trains to move some people before a storm.
An RTA emergency plan dedicates 64 buses and 10 lift vans to move people somewhere; whether that means out of town or to local shelters of last resort would depend on emergency planners' decision at that moment, RTA spokeswoman Rosalind Cook said.
But even the larger buses hold only about 60 people each, a rescue capacity that is dwarfed by the unmet need.
In an interview at the opening of this year's hurricane season, New Orleans Emergency Preparedness Director Joseph Matthews acknowledged that the city is overmatched.
"It's important to emphasize that we just don't have the resources to take everybody out," he said in a interview in late May.
A helping hand
In the absence of public transportation resources, Total Community Action and the Red Cross have been developing a private initiative called Operation Brother's Keeper that, fully formed, would enlist churches in a vast, decentralized effort to make space for the poor and the infirm in church members' cars when they evacuate.
However, the program is only in the first year of a three-year experiment and involves only four local churches so far.
The Red Cross and Total Community Action are trying to invent a program that would show churches how to inventory their members, match those with space in their cars with those needing a ride, and put all the information in a useful framework, Wilkins said.
But the complexities so far are daunting, she said.
The inventories go only at the pace of the volunteers doing them. Where churches recruit partner churches out of the storm area to shelter them, volunteers in both places need to be trained in running shelters, she said.
People also have to think carefully about what makes good evacuation matches. Wilkins said that when ride arrangements are made, the volunteers must be sure to tell their passengers where their planned destination is if they are evacuated.
Moreover, although the Archdiocese of New Orleans has endorsed the project in principle, it doesn't want its 142 parishes to participate until insurance problems have been solved with new legislation that reduces liability risks, Wilkins said.
At the end of three years, organizers of Operation Brother's Keeper hope to have trained 90 congregations how to develop evacuation plans for their own members.
The church connection
Meanwhile, some churches appear to have moved on their own to create evacuation plans that assist members without cars.
Since the Hurricane Ivan evacuation of 2004, Mormon churches have begun matching members who have empty seats in cars with those needing seats, said Scott Conlin, president of the church's local stake. Eleven local congregations of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints share a common evacuation plan, and many church members have three-day emergency kits packed and ready to go, he said.
Mormon churches in Jackson, Miss., Hattiesburg, Miss., and Alexandria, La., have arranged to receive evacuees. The denomination also maintains a toll-free telephone number that functions as a central information drop, where members on the road can leave information about their whereabouts that church leaders can pick up and relay as necessary, Conlin said.
. . . . . . .
Bruce Nolan can be reached at bnolan@timespicayune.com or (504) 826-3344.
posted by calwatch at 12:23 AM on September 5, 2005
City, state and federal emergency officials are preparing to give the poorest of New Orleans' poor a historically blunt message: In the event of a major hurricane, you're on your own.
In scripted appearances being recorded now, officials such as Mayor Ray Nagin, local Red Cross Executive Director Kay Wilkins and City Council President Oliver Thomas drive home the word that the city does not have the resources to move out of harm's way an estimated 134,000 people without transportation.
In the video, made by the anti-poverty agency Total Community Action, they urge those people to make arrangements now by finding their own ways to leave the city in the event of an evacuation.
"You're responsible for your safety, and you should be responsible for the person next to you," Wilkins said in an interview. "If you have some room to get that person out of town, the Red Cross will have a space for that person outside the area. We can help you.
"But we don't have the transportation."
Officials are recording the evacuation message even as recent research by the University of New Orleans indicated that as many as 60 percent of the residents of most southeast Louisiana parishes would remain in their homes in the event of a Category 3 hurricane.
Their message will be distributed on hundreds of DVDs across the city. The DVDs' basic get-out-of-town message applies to all audiences, but the it is especially targeted to scores of churches and other groups heavily concentrated in Central City and other vulnerable, low-income neighborhoods, said the Rev. Marshall Truehill, head of Total Community Action.
"The primary message is that each person is primarily responsible for themselves, for their own family and friends," Truehill said.
In addition to the plea from Nagin, Thomas and Wilkins, video exhortations to make evacuation plans come from representatives of State Police and the National Weather Service, and from local officials such as Sen. Ann Duplessis, D-New Orleans, and State Rep. Arthur Morrell, D-New Orleans, said Allan Katz, whose advertising company is coordinating officials' scripts and doing the recording.
The speakers explain what to bring and what to leave behind. They advise viewers to bring personal medicines and critical legal documents, and tell them how to create a family communication plan. Even a representative of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals weighs in with a message on how to make the best arrangements for pets left behind.
Production likely will continue through August. Officials want to get the DVDs into the hands of pastors and community leaders as hurricane season reaches its height in September, Katz said.
Fleeing the storm
Believing that the low-lying city is too dangerous a place to shelter refugees, the Red Cross positioned its storm shelters on higher ground north of Interstate 10 several years ago. It dropped plans to care for storm victims in schools or other institutions in town.
Truehill, Wilkins and others said emergency preparedness officials still plan to deploy some Regional Transit Authority buses, school buses and perhaps even Amtrak trains to move some people before a storm.
An RTA emergency plan dedicates 64 buses and 10 lift vans to move people somewhere; whether that means out of town or to local shelters of last resort would depend on emergency planners' decision at that moment, RTA spokeswoman Rosalind Cook said.
But even the larger buses hold only about 60 people each, a rescue capacity that is dwarfed by the unmet need.
In an interview at the opening of this year's hurricane season, New Orleans Emergency Preparedness Director Joseph Matthews acknowledged that the city is overmatched.
"It's important to emphasize that we just don't have the resources to take everybody out," he said in a interview in late May.
A helping hand
In the absence of public transportation resources, Total Community Action and the Red Cross have been developing a private initiative called Operation Brother's Keeper that, fully formed, would enlist churches in a vast, decentralized effort to make space for the poor and the infirm in church members' cars when they evacuate.
However, the program is only in the first year of a three-year experiment and involves only four local churches so far.
The Red Cross and Total Community Action are trying to invent a program that would show churches how to inventory their members, match those with space in their cars with those needing a ride, and put all the information in a useful framework, Wilkins said.
But the complexities so far are daunting, she said.
The inventories go only at the pace of the volunteers doing them. Where churches recruit partner churches out of the storm area to shelter them, volunteers in both places need to be trained in running shelters, she said.
People also have to think carefully about what makes good evacuation matches. Wilkins said that when ride arrangements are made, the volunteers must be sure to tell their passengers where their planned destination is if they are evacuated.
Moreover, although the Archdiocese of New Orleans has endorsed the project in principle, it doesn't want its 142 parishes to participate until insurance problems have been solved with new legislation that reduces liability risks, Wilkins said.
At the end of three years, organizers of Operation Brother's Keeper hope to have trained 90 congregations how to develop evacuation plans for their own members.
The church connection
Meanwhile, some churches appear to have moved on their own to create evacuation plans that assist members without cars.
Since the Hurricane Ivan evacuation of 2004, Mormon churches have begun matching members who have empty seats in cars with those needing seats, said Scott Conlin, president of the church's local stake. Eleven local congregations of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints share a common evacuation plan, and many church members have three-day emergency kits packed and ready to go, he said.
Mormon churches in Jackson, Miss., Hattiesburg, Miss., and Alexandria, La., have arranged to receive evacuees. The denomination also maintains a toll-free telephone number that functions as a central information drop, where members on the road can leave information about their whereabouts that church leaders can pick up and relay as necessary, Conlin said.
. . . . . . .
Bruce Nolan can be reached at bnolan@timespicayune.com or (504) 826-3344.
posted by calwatch at 12:23 AM on September 5, 2005
Carbloic, agreed. It has been dropped many times.* But this is post 9/11. We have a cabinet level position and a new department that is supposed to ensure we can respond when something goes really wrong.
I am a liberal and proud of it. But ther are things Bush has done that I kind of like. IMHO I have to be a pretty "evil" person to fight against everything he does, just for political reasons. I mean heck, there are ramification for losing elections and I can live with that.
But you can't have it both ways, and that is what Bush is trying to do. He is a "war time president." He is working to "protect the homeland."
But when we have deadly evidence that isn't the case, he (or at least this staff) attempt to say (1) wow, we couldn't have planned for that or (2) not our fault.
*I was born in Baton Rouge and went to school there. This hits closer to home then I care to admit.
posted by webranding at 12:24 AM on September 5, 2005
I am a liberal and proud of it. But ther are things Bush has done that I kind of like. IMHO I have to be a pretty "evil" person to fight against everything he does, just for political reasons. I mean heck, there are ramification for losing elections and I can live with that.
But you can't have it both ways, and that is what Bush is trying to do. He is a "war time president." He is working to "protect the homeland."
But when we have deadly evidence that isn't the case, he (or at least this staff) attempt to say (1) wow, we couldn't have planned for that or (2) not our fault.
*I was born in Baton Rouge and went to school there. This hits closer to home then I care to admit.
posted by webranding at 12:24 AM on September 5, 2005
After the reading the article again, it tells me why, when it matters, faith based initiatives don't work.
posted by calwatch at 12:25 AM on September 5, 2005
posted by calwatch at 12:25 AM on September 5, 2005
Bush may have dropped the ball but it's been dropped many times before
That is an excellent point. Bush has dropped the ball so many times before that it is simply pointless to criticize Bush for dropping the ball this time. I mean, look, in 2004, Americans voted for "the president who dropped the ball." It's almost redundant to actually complain that the president dropped the ball, since we have made it quite clear that what we want for our country is a ball-dropping leader.
I know that this probably isn't what you meant, but writing that was cathartic. Americans voted for Bush knowing that he's the sort of person who drops the ball and can't respond when he's needed. He's more the kind of guy who waits until chaos has taken over and then steps in to make us feel reassured when the situation is slightly less chaotic than it was the day before he decided to grace us with his presence.
It strikes me that this is probably a productive leadership strategy. Instead of trying to do anything when it might help avert disaster or help improve things now, do nothing until things become intolerable. Then when everyone is desperate for help, arrive a day late and a dollar short, and those people will simply be thankful for the fact that you didn't kick them when they're down. Did you screw up? Sure. But the last thing anyone wants to do in that situation is "point fingers."
posted by deanc at 12:25 AM on September 5, 2005
That is an excellent point. Bush has dropped the ball so many times before that it is simply pointless to criticize Bush for dropping the ball this time. I mean, look, in 2004, Americans voted for "the president who dropped the ball." It's almost redundant to actually complain that the president dropped the ball, since we have made it quite clear that what we want for our country is a ball-dropping leader.
I know that this probably isn't what you meant, but writing that was cathartic. Americans voted for Bush knowing that he's the sort of person who drops the ball and can't respond when he's needed. He's more the kind of guy who waits until chaos has taken over and then steps in to make us feel reassured when the situation is slightly less chaotic than it was the day before he decided to grace us with his presence.
It strikes me that this is probably a productive leadership strategy. Instead of trying to do anything when it might help avert disaster or help improve things now, do nothing until things become intolerable. Then when everyone is desperate for help, arrive a day late and a dollar short, and those people will simply be thankful for the fact that you didn't kick them when they're down. Did you screw up? Sure. But the last thing anyone wants to do in that situation is "point fingers."
posted by deanc at 12:25 AM on September 5, 2005
I lived in New Orleans for 15 years, which is why I say that I'm not blaming the Bush administration alone for neglecting what should have been done to shore up the infrastructure at the federal level, though I suppose it is the first administration that actually cut funding for these projects.
posted by taz at 12:28 AM on September 5, 2005
posted by taz at 12:28 AM on September 5, 2005
Americans voted for Bush knowing that he's the sort of person who drops the ball and can't respond when he's needed. He's more the kind of guy who waits until chaos has taken over and then steps in to make us feel reassured when the situation is slightly less chaotic than it was the day before he decided to grace us with his presence
Americans are gamblers at heart. We keep throwing chips on the table on the hopes that we'll finally break our losing streak. (White) House wins again!
posted by Rothko at 12:28 AM on September 5, 2005
Americans are gamblers at heart. We keep throwing chips on the table on the hopes that we'll finally break our losing streak. (White) House wins again!
posted by Rothko at 12:28 AM on September 5, 2005
"On page 43 of the NRP the section is titled,"
All hat and no cattle.
posted by mischief at 12:33 AM on September 5, 2005
All hat and no cattle.
posted by mischief at 12:33 AM on September 5, 2005
It's silly to defend against federal responsibility based on strict bureaucratic regulations. It's a little late for this administration to take that line of argument.
But then, there is no need for people to be so hasty to assign blame. It's going to take a while to unravel this. A lot of this discussion is very premature, and there really will be plenty of time to get to the bottom of it all.
posted by Edgewise at 12:34 AM on September 5, 2005
But then, there is no need for people to be so hasty to assign blame. It's going to take a while to unravel this. A lot of this discussion is very premature, and there really will be plenty of time to get to the bottom of it all.
posted by Edgewise at 12:34 AM on September 5, 2005
Taz, I hope all your friends and family are ok. Pretty much everyone I know is in Baton Rouge so I didn't have any frantic phone calls to make.
I am just beyond myself right now. In fact I did something the last two days I never thought I would do. When I went out to put up my American and LSU flags, this time they were flying upside down.
I am in distress.
posted by webranding at 12:37 AM on September 5, 2005
I am just beyond myself right now. In fact I did something the last two days I never thought I would do. When I went out to put up my American and LSU flags, this time they were flying upside down.
I am in distress.
posted by webranding at 12:37 AM on September 5, 2005
webranding, my family is in central Louisiana (so, okay), and I've heard from or of my closest New Orleans friends.
posted by taz at 12:40 AM on September 5, 2005
posted by taz at 12:40 AM on September 5, 2005
It was pretty predictable that the NOLA mayor would be the subject of a smear campaign after having the audacity to suggest that the federal government's response, was. . . shall we say, less than optimal.
The mayor of new orleans should be investigated along with the federal government. The system from top to bottom should be examined. Taking a close look at one level doesn't exclude the others from blame. It also doesn't make it a smear campaign.
posted by justgary at 12:42 AM on September 5, 2005
The mayor of new orleans should be investigated along with the federal government. The system from top to bottom should be examined. Taking a close look at one level doesn't exclude the others from blame. It also doesn't make it a smear campaign.
posted by justgary at 12:42 AM on September 5, 2005
Local officials are clearly responsible for most of the mistakes made right before the hurricane . Federal officials are clearly responsible for most of the mistakes made after the hurricane.
Lots of folks are responsible for the mistakes made in building New Orleans the way it was built historically
posted by spira at 12:47 AM on September 5, 2005
Lots of folks are responsible for the mistakes made in building New Orleans the way it was built historically
posted by spira at 12:47 AM on September 5, 2005
By the time the investigations are complete, no one will escape blame, local, state or federal - poor evacuation planning, poor levee structure, poor leadership at all levels, poor communication, poor initial response, poor coordination of aid offers, the list goes on and on and on . . . .
The tepid FEMA response is perhaps the most troubling for the long term. If they can't get it right here, where they have had years of advance planning and warnings, and then days of warning prior to the actual event, how will they be able to respond to a terrorist attack? We are not ready, despite the billions of dollars dumped down this hole.
posted by caddis at 12:52 AM on September 5, 2005
The tepid FEMA response is perhaps the most troubling for the long term. If they can't get it right here, where they have had years of advance planning and warnings, and then days of warning prior to the actual event, how will they be able to respond to a terrorist attack? We are not ready, despite the billions of dollars dumped down this hole.
posted by caddis at 12:52 AM on September 5, 2005
Why do so many people want to blame the local officals or the "City of New Orleans?" If a small nuclear weapon would have gone off instread of Katrina, you think the response would have been better?
This is about our federal government's ability to respond in a post 9/11 world.
posted by webranding at 12:54 AM on September 5, 2005
This is about our federal government's ability to respond in a post 9/11 world.
posted by webranding at 12:54 AM on September 5, 2005
taz, webranding: Sounds like we may be coming from the same place. I grew up in NOLA. Most of my family is on the North Shore and a little further north (Bogalusa). We've accounted for everyone except for one cousin who we are pretty sure is okay (based on past history he probably hasn't put a chainsaw down long enough to find a working phone). All the family who was still in NO got out. A cousin who lived in Slidell probably took the biggest property hit but is known to be in Baton Rouge. Hope all of yours are okay. I'm really grieving for that dysfunctional city I love so much.
posted by Carbolic at 1:17 AM on September 5, 2005
posted by Carbolic at 1:17 AM on September 5, 2005
"The city had the resources to put together a digital package to tell the poor that there were no resources for them. "
...
While you're reading Lenin's Tomb, do check out other posts by the same author too, like the one about how when the hurricane came the IEM deleted its press release about being assigned "a more than half a million dollar contract with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security/Federal Emergency Management Agency", and the one about Blackwater USA getting into the action too.
posted by funambulist at 1:23 AM on September 5, 2005
...
While you're reading Lenin's Tomb, do check out other posts by the same author too, like the one about how when the hurricane came the IEM deleted its press release about being assigned "a more than half a million dollar contract with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security/Federal Emergency Management Agency", and the one about Blackwater USA getting into the action too.
posted by funambulist at 1:23 AM on September 5, 2005
Carbolic, i should have not gotten into politics or blame ...
It is so good to hear your family and friends are ok.
This is such a great quote: "based on past history he probably hasn't put a chainsaw down long enough to find a working phone." When I read, "will they rebuild" in many press articles I think of the thousands of people like your cousin that call LA home and will never leave. Of course they will rebuild. If the government doesn't help them (which I am pretty sure they will), then they'll do it on their own!
posted by webranding at 1:31 AM on September 5, 2005
It is so good to hear your family and friends are ok.
This is such a great quote: "based on past history he probably hasn't put a chainsaw down long enough to find a working phone." When I read, "will they rebuild" in many press articles I think of the thousands of people like your cousin that call LA home and will never leave. Of course they will rebuild. If the government doesn't help them (which I am pretty sure they will), then they'll do it on their own!
posted by webranding at 1:31 AM on September 5, 2005
webranding: I took no offense to your politics. They seem pretty reasonable whether I were to agree with every point or not (I might). I'll be ready to blame once things get under control.
I haven't followed local NO politics for a long time. I've lived in Memphis for 20+ years (other than for entertainment value there's never been much reason to anyway). I was impressed that Nagin called for a "mandatory" evacuation. I don't think that's ever happened before.
I lived in married student housing at LSU as a young child when my dad was at the engineering school. "Who dat talkin' bout beatin' dem Tigers?" NO will be back in one form or another but I expect Baton Rouge will become a bigger population center for better or worse.
posted by Carbolic at 1:55 AM on September 5, 2005
I haven't followed local NO politics for a long time. I've lived in Memphis for 20+ years (other than for entertainment value there's never been much reason to anyway). I was impressed that Nagin called for a "mandatory" evacuation. I don't think that's ever happened before.
I lived in married student housing at LSU as a young child when my dad was at the engineering school. "Who dat talkin' bout beatin' dem Tigers?" NO will be back in one form or another but I expect Baton Rouge will become a bigger population center for better or worse.
posted by Carbolic at 1:55 AM on September 5, 2005
I've been gone for about nine years, but the last time we (personally) evacuated for a hurricane, it ended up not touching New Orleans, and we ran into it in Baton Rouge on our way back from Alexandria (Colfax, actually). Fun stuff.
posted by taz at 2:11 AM on September 5, 2005
posted by taz at 2:11 AM on September 5, 2005
Small world 101. I was born in the summer of 69 while my dad was a grad student for T. Harry Williams (got his Ph.D in history from LSU). They lived in married student housing as well. Heck, my mom worked for Edwin Edwards to pay help pay the bills. Any time my dad steps out of line to this day she brings that up.
When I went back for grad school I was amazed that where I grew up until I was five was a "crack den."
"NO will be back in one form or another but I expect Baton Rouge will become a bigger population center for better or worse."
Agreed there as well. Many of the people I have spoken with from the area all say the same thing. I am not a number guy, but I bet maybe 150,000 to 200,000 people will relocate to new communities in between BR and NO. Maybe in the long run this will be a good thing.
posted by webranding at 2:15 AM on September 5, 2005
When I went back for grad school I was amazed that where I grew up until I was five was a "crack den."
"NO will be back in one form or another but I expect Baton Rouge will become a bigger population center for better or worse."
Agreed there as well. Many of the people I have spoken with from the area all say the same thing. I am not a number guy, but I bet maybe 150,000 to 200,000 people will relocate to new communities in between BR and NO. Maybe in the long run this will be a good thing.
posted by webranding at 2:15 AM on September 5, 2005
I'm a little older. I was born in 60 and lived at LSU 63 - 65. All I really remember was visiting Mike the Tiger and that the apartments might have been near some railroad tracks.
Edwin Edwards! Typical La. moment - When he was running against David Dukes for governor there were bumperstickers, "Vote for the lizard not the wizard".
posted by Carbolic at 2:22 AM on September 5, 2005
Edwin Edwards! Typical La. moment - When he was running against David Dukes for governor there were bumperstickers, "Vote for the lizard not the wizard".
posted by Carbolic at 2:22 AM on September 5, 2005
I pretty much remember the same things. Mike, running on the Quad, and a basketball game. Oh and a duck my parents made me get rid of.
Funny you should say bumpersticker. When I was back in 91-93 for grad school there was one in bar that said:
"Pave our lake, the Louisiana asphalt Society."
I do have a sense of humor ...
posted by webranding at 2:39 AM on September 5, 2005
Funny you should say bumpersticker. When I was back in 91-93 for grad school there was one in bar that said:
"Pave our lake, the Louisiana asphalt Society."
I do have a sense of humor ...
posted by webranding at 2:39 AM on September 5, 2005
I was there then... My favorite bumpersticker was "Vote For The Crook - It's Important".
posted by taz at 2:40 AM on September 5, 2005
posted by taz at 2:40 AM on September 5, 2005
One of the things I don't think people get about this situation is:
(1) How important NO is as a port. Within 10 yards of where I sit is a 10,000 acre field of corn. If that can't go 20 miles to St. Louis to be moved south, I don't know what is going to happen.
(2) NO is almost like a foreign nation. They have parishes, not counties. Heck, even their legal system is different. LA may be a poor state, but it is a state with a lot of history and pride.
(3) People forget Huey Long. Mamy things he did where wrong, but he did build stuff. Stuff at a level they'll need now.
Ok, off my "high horse" ...
posted by webranding at 2:53 AM on September 5, 2005
(1) How important NO is as a port. Within 10 yards of where I sit is a 10,000 acre field of corn. If that can't go 20 miles to St. Louis to be moved south, I don't know what is going to happen.
(2) NO is almost like a foreign nation. They have parishes, not counties. Heck, even their legal system is different. LA may be a poor state, but it is a state with a lot of history and pride.
(3) People forget Huey Long. Mamy things he did where wrong, but he did build stuff. Stuff at a level they'll need now.
Ok, off my "high horse" ...
posted by webranding at 2:53 AM on September 5, 2005
I want the head of the guy who does the color alert things. You know. Pink or yellow or green or whatever.
He does it every time I decide to fly somewhere and it has never failed to keep those terrorists off my plane.
Doesn't he have a hurricane color he could have put up over New Orleans?
posted by notreally at 5:17 AM on September 5, 2005
He does it every time I decide to fly somewhere and it has never failed to keep those terrorists off my plane.
Doesn't he have a hurricane color he could have put up over New Orleans?
posted by notreally at 5:17 AM on September 5, 2005
From the Red Cross plan:
The Red Cross and Total Community Action are trying to invent a program that would show churches how to inventory their members, match those with space in their cars with those needing a ride
So if you don't belong to a church, you are a godless heathen and we won't be worrying about you.
When I read, "will they rebuild" in many press articles I think of the thousands of people like your cousin that call LA home and will never leave. Of course they will rebuild. If the government doesn't help them (which I am pretty sure they will), then they'll do it on their own!posted by webranding at 4:31 AM EST on September 5 [!]
The Sunday NY Times had an amusing story about French Quarter inhabitants who are continuing to carry on. They've "commandeered" chemical toilets from building sites and "go shopping" every morning with their shopping carts for food, drink, and bathing supplies. At night, they barbecue. They say they are just going to wait it out until the electricity gets turned back on.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:38 AM on September 5, 2005
The Red Cross and Total Community Action are trying to invent a program that would show churches how to inventory their members, match those with space in their cars with those needing a ride
So if you don't belong to a church, you are a godless heathen and we won't be worrying about you.
When I read, "will they rebuild" in many press articles I think of the thousands of people like your cousin that call LA home and will never leave. Of course they will rebuild. If the government doesn't help them (which I am pretty sure they will), then they'll do it on their own!posted by webranding at 4:31 AM EST on September 5 [!]
The Sunday NY Times had an amusing story about French Quarter inhabitants who are continuing to carry on. They've "commandeered" chemical toilets from building sites and "go shopping" every morning with their shopping carts for food, drink, and bathing supplies. At night, they barbecue. They say they are just going to wait it out until the electricity gets turned back on.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:38 AM on September 5, 2005
trying to invent a program that would show churches how to inventory their members, match those with space in their cars with those needing a ride
It's almost as though we need some kind of central authority that can allocate resources from each, according to his means, to each according to his need.
posted by cleardawn at 7:23 AM on September 5, 2005
It's almost as though we need some kind of central authority that can allocate resources from each, according to his means, to each according to his need.
posted by cleardawn at 7:23 AM on September 5, 2005
I must say, the fact that the local/state governments clearly knew in advance that they weren't going to be able to get everyone out on their own in such an event actually might lead me to damn the feds even further. Again, plenty of blame to go around here, but if the feds knew there would be thousands of people left behind during an evac, they had even more reason to step in and help out when it became clear this was likely to be a devastating event. This assumes, of course, that the feds were indeed aware of the locals' lack of transportation resources. I've yet to see direct evidence of that.
This still doesn't account for the fact that given the known potential for incredible destruction, the feds really shouldn't have sat around waiting to be invited in. The apparent legal wrangling over who had authority is pathetic, and should outrage people from either end of the political spectrum. If 9/11 revealed terrible communications problems and stonewalls between intelligence agencies, Katrina has revealed similarly deep problems between state and federal emergency management. How many more investigative commissions -- let alone distasters -- do we need to fix this crap?
As for Bush himself, my primary disgust with him stems from his absolutely pathetic initial response. That horrible, completely unimpassioned first speech, read from a fucking script no less, revealed a man completely incapable of mustering up the energy to act Presidential. It's as if he used up all of his leadership boost meter after 9/11. Add to that the failures of FEMA and DHS, failures which lead directly to his door, and you get a boatload of blame landing on the man. If the Bush supporters here can't see this, they're willfully blind. Look, your guy can fuck up royally and still be worthy of your love. Liberals learned this with Clinton, you can learn it with Bush.
posted by schoolgirl report at 7:27 AM on September 5, 2005
This still doesn't account for the fact that given the known potential for incredible destruction, the feds really shouldn't have sat around waiting to be invited in. The apparent legal wrangling over who had authority is pathetic, and should outrage people from either end of the political spectrum. If 9/11 revealed terrible communications problems and stonewalls between intelligence agencies, Katrina has revealed similarly deep problems between state and federal emergency management. How many more investigative commissions -- let alone distasters -- do we need to fix this crap?
As for Bush himself, my primary disgust with him stems from his absolutely pathetic initial response. That horrible, completely unimpassioned first speech, read from a fucking script no less, revealed a man completely incapable of mustering up the energy to act Presidential. It's as if he used up all of his leadership boost meter after 9/11. Add to that the failures of FEMA and DHS, failures which lead directly to his door, and you get a boatload of blame landing on the man. If the Bush supporters here can't see this, they're willfully blind. Look, your guy can fuck up royally and still be worthy of your love. Liberals learned this with Clinton, you can learn it with Bush.
posted by schoolgirl report at 7:27 AM on September 5, 2005
To add to the confusion, we've even got Bill O'Reilly making a bit of sense. This whole thing is making my head hurt.
posted by lazywhinerkid at 7:53 AM on September 5, 2005
posted by lazywhinerkid at 7:53 AM on September 5, 2005
Oreilly was blaming Clinton a few days ago. He makes no sense.
posted by destro at 8:10 AM on September 5, 2005
posted by destro at 8:10 AM on September 5, 2005
Telling people to focus on looting rather than rescue is unforgivable.
posted by destro at 8:19 AM on September 5, 2005
posted by destro at 8:19 AM on September 5, 2005
Schoolgirl report (what a nick!) does make a good point: you can like Bush without being blind to his flaws. But with two vacancies on the Supreme Court you can still feel that Bush is the right President, if the alternative is Kerry. I suppose there are always other Republicans you might like better than Bush, but that's a matter for 2008.
posted by MattD at 8:28 AM on September 5, 2005
posted by MattD at 8:28 AM on September 5, 2005
This is the second time during Bush's administration that thousands of American have died due to something that Bush deemphasized after taking office. Clinton made national coordinator for terrorism (Richard Clarke) and FEMA director (James Lee Witt) Cabinet-level positions. Bush demoted both positions.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:34 AM on September 5, 2005
posted by kirkaracha at 8:34 AM on September 5, 2005
"there really will be plenty of time to get to the bottom of it all"
... he says as hurricanes continue to brew in the Atlantic.
webranding: A hurricane is a much more likely scenario than a nuclear attack.
posted by mischief at 9:43 AM on September 5, 2005
... he says as hurricanes continue to brew in the Atlantic.
webranding: A hurricane is a much more likely scenario than a nuclear attack.
posted by mischief at 9:43 AM on September 5, 2005
(1) How important NO is as a port. Within 10 yards of where I sit is a 10,000 acre field of corn. If that can't go 20 miles to St. Louis to be moved south, I don't know what is going to happen.
A couple of questions - the infrastructure wouldn't currently be in place for either of these on a large scale, but how possible is it to ship up the Mississippi, then to Chicago via canal or overland by train Detroit on the Great Lakes, and across and out through the St. Lawrence? Or up the Ohio as far as possible, then by train across to Baltimore? In theory, wouldn't either be possible? In fact, how far off are we from being able ship this way? Did we just decide to put all our eggs in one basket or is there a physical reason that it wouldn't be practical to (re?)build the inrastructure for these routes? /geographic ignorance
posted by dilettante at 11:31 AM on September 5, 2005
caddis: If they can't get it right here, where they have had years of advance planning and warnings, and then days of warning prior to the actual event, how will they be able to respond to a terrorist attack?
See, now this is a sentiment that baffles me. You've just had a natural disaster with a likely death toll in the thousands, but that's still not as scary as the next terrorist attack. The power of nightmares indeed.
posted by Popular Ethics at 12:01 PM on September 5, 2005
See, now this is a sentiment that baffles me. You've just had a natural disaster with a likely death toll in the thousands, but that's still not as scary as the next terrorist attack. The power of nightmares indeed.
posted by Popular Ethics at 12:01 PM on September 5, 2005
Too bad it wasn't a truck bomb that took out the levee. Then the feds could have used their plans for a terrorist attack to evacuate the city.
posted by MikeKD at 1:06 PM on September 5, 2005
posted by MikeKD at 1:06 PM on September 5, 2005
See, now this is a sentiment that baffles me. You've just had a natural disaster with a likely death toll in the thousands, but that's still not as scary as the next terrorist attack. The power of nightmares indeed.
Power of nightmares nothing. It's called looking to the future, and seeing that if DHS can't handle this, how are they going to handle something that comes, literally, without warning, especially since that is their whole reason for being.
posted by Snyder at 5:44 PM on September 5, 2005
Power of nightmares nothing. It's called looking to the future, and seeing that if DHS can't handle this, how are they going to handle something that comes, literally, without warning, especially since that is their whole reason for being.
posted by Snyder at 5:44 PM on September 5, 2005
how are they going to handle something that comes, literally, without warning
Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich: "I think it puts into question all of the Homeland Security and Northern Command planning for the last four years, because if we can't respond faster than this to an event we saw coming across the Gulf for days, then why do we think we're prepared to respond to a nuclear or biological attack?"
Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney (R): [The federal government response has been] "undermanaged' [and] "an embarrassment.' "... I must admit I feel that this has been an embarrassment for the emergency management setting as has been demonstrated to the world.'
posted by ericb at 6:22 PM on September 5, 2005
Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich: "I think it puts into question all of the Homeland Security and Northern Command planning for the last four years, because if we can't respond faster than this to an event we saw coming across the Gulf for days, then why do we think we're prepared to respond to a nuclear or biological attack?"
Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney (R): [The federal government response has been] "undermanaged' [and] "an embarrassment.' "... I must admit I feel that this has been an embarrassment for the emergency management setting as has been demonstrated to the world.'
posted by ericb at 6:22 PM on September 5, 2005
A couple of questions - the infrastructure wouldn't currently be in place for either of these on a large scale, but how possible is it to ship up the Mississippi, then to Chicago via canal or overland by train Detroit on the Great Lakes, and across and out through the St. Lawrence? Or up the Ohio as far as possible, then by train across to Baltimore? In theory, wouldn't either be possible? In fact, how far off are we from being able ship this way? Did we just decide to put all our eggs in one basket or is there a physical reason that it wouldn't be practical to (re?)build the inrastructure for these routes? /geographic ignorance
There is a shipping waterway that connects the Mississippi to Lake Michigan via the Illinois River.
I do expect that there will be near-term disruption and rerouting of shipping, out of necessity, but what all goes where is an interesting question. This may mean a lot more rail traffic, for example.
posted by dhartung at 10:34 PM on September 5, 2005
There is a shipping waterway that connects the Mississippi to Lake Michigan via the Illinois River.
I do expect that there will be near-term disruption and rerouting of shipping, out of necessity, but what all goes where is an interesting question. This may mean a lot more rail traffic, for example.
posted by dhartung at 10:34 PM on September 5, 2005
Wait, Nagin used to be a Republican? Attack! Attack! Attack!
* Hastily taking down the Nagin for President sign *
I have heard a Republican friend making a case that the flooding was FDR's fault. I have also heard a Democrat friend make a case that it was Reagan's fault.
I understand that everyone's entitled to their own political hacking (I certainly do mine from time to time), but the partisan attacks kind of make people look like opportunists.
posted by rush at 1:11 PM on September 6, 2005
* Hastily taking down the Nagin for President sign *
I have heard a Republican friend making a case that the flooding was FDR's fault. I have also heard a Democrat friend make a case that it was Reagan's fault.
I understand that everyone's entitled to their own political hacking (I certainly do mine from time to time), but the partisan attacks kind of make people look like opportunists.
posted by rush at 1:11 PM on September 6, 2005
« Older English as she is spoke | The Way of the Ninja Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by mediareport at 10:59 PM on September 4, 2005