Did Thoreau go to jail for nothing?

September 12, 2005 8:27 PM

Georgia wants to charge people to vote,having chosen to implement "a new voter ID law that requires many people without driver's licenses...to pay $20 or more for a state ID card." Adding insult to injury, the number of ID centers in Atlanta is currently ZERO.
(disclaimer: I don't know how to get a subscription-free link to NYT articles- sorry!)
posted by elisabeth r (77 comments total)

[this is bad]
posted by wakko at 8:34 PM on September 12, 2005

I really loathe anything that presumes that to be a rational adult you have to have a driver's license. Jesus.
posted by Hildegarde at 8:35 PM on September 12, 2005

welcome to Pacifica
posted by Elim at 8:37 PM on September 12, 2005

down with evil Eurasia
posted by Elim at 8:37 PM on September 12, 2005

Uh, I'm pretty sure that's flagrantly unconstitutional, as per Harper v. Virginia Board of Educations. "To introduce a wealth or payment of a fee as a measure of a voter's qualifications is to introduce a capricious or irrelevant factor. The degree of discrimination is irrelevant", and all. Good to see that the article makes a point of emphasizing that.
posted by kafziel at 8:40 PM on September 12, 2005

Im not thrilled by reading thing, however i think much is being made of possibly nothing. There is a clear public interest in eliminating voter fraud. In fact I believe that any form of election fraud should be considered treason.

However lets look at this "Until recently, Georgia, like most states, accepted many forms of identification at the polls. But starting this month, it is accepting only government-issued photo ID's."

What exactly is a form of ID that isn't govt issued photo ID. There seems to be very little in this space. Only thing i can think of is a SS card. Thats govt issued but no photo. Any thing else that passes for ID is quite forgeable. Most forms of govt ID are subject to renewal anyway. Most state drivers licenses are (but as they are drivers licenses why are they being used as ID? But thats for another time) Or a passport. Here in NYS you cant cash a check without ID, many places want ID to get you hired for a job.

So is this a poll tax? no not per se.
Is it one effectively? Perhaps.
Do the people have an interest reducing voting fraud? Clearly.
Should you be walking around without some form of ID? Im going to say no.

This thing about being so poor you cant afford a 10 year ID? Im not buying it. Perhaps they want to lower the cost, but if you are that poor well sounds like you won't be able to prove where you live anyway. If you are working for cash then you can probably claim indigent. If you are cashing your check you need ID. If you have a bank account you needed ID to open it.

I think someone is having a froth here.
posted by MrLint at 8:45 PM on September 12, 2005

I paid very little for my driver's license in Ga.--which I've had for less than one year now--compared to what I've paid in neighboring states (almost $30 in Alabama, maybe $25, but somewhere in there). I agreed to be an organ donor, as I have done in other places previously. And I paid a whopping $8 or something. The $20 fee, if accurately reported, is outrageous when compared to the pittance that actual drivers pay for their licenses here.
posted by raysmj at 8:48 PM on September 12, 2005

so what? assuming you don't have a driver's license, you'd need the damn thing anyway if you want to buy cigarettes, alcohol, porn or guns. you would need the damn thing anyway to pick up certified mail at the post office or open a bank account.

if this were about poll taxing, then everybody would be required to purchase a "voter ID" card that had no other value except allowing the holder to participate in elections. having a valid, standardized form of identification is not too much to ask...
posted by Ziggy Zaga at 8:48 PM on September 12, 2005

I agreed to be an organ donor, as I have done in other places previously. And I paid a whopping $8 or something. The $20 fee, if accurately reported, is outrageous when compared to the pittance that actual drivers pay for their licenses here.

i recall reading that perdue repealed the organ donor discount. everybody pays in the double digits now.
posted by Ziggy Zaga at 8:49 PM on September 12, 2005

Should you be walking around without some form of ID? Im going to say no.

You should only do that in free countries...
posted by Kwantsar at 8:52 PM on September 12, 2005

Ziggy Zaga: When? I got a license back in May. A license still would not have cost me at or over $20, however, even with the discount.
posted by raysmj at 8:52 PM on September 12, 2005

having a valid, standardized form of identification is not too much to ask...

Then issue it for free to anyone who asks. If the state can mandate that this particular form of ID is required for the legal exercise of this fundamental right, then the State can fucking eat the cost of providing it for everyone.
posted by Chrischris at 8:56 PM on September 12, 2005

I agree with Chrischris- if government issued IDs are required in order to vote, you should be able to get an ID at no cost.

Something that's being overlooked in our discussion is that there are very few places where you can actually get the IDs. Why not just do it through the DMV? That's how we roll in the Keystone state.
posted by elisabeth r at 9:00 PM on September 12, 2005

What exactly is a form of ID that isn't govt issued photo ID. There seems to be very little in this space.

There used to be a long list of acceptable forms of non-gov't issued ID... things like utility bills, bank statements, etc. Now the state is requiring official state-issued ID's, but they are not setting up places to make it easy to get said ID. And they aren't making it free either, so the result is indeed a poll tax, even if it is a small one to most people. The result is that a lot of people will just say 'fuck it...' and not bother to vote. And that, I believe, is exactly the intention of the law.
posted by spilon at 9:00 PM on September 12, 2005

so what? assuming you don't have a driver's license, you'd need the damn thing anyway if you want to buy cigarettes, alcohol, porn or guns. you would need the damn thing anyway to pick up certified mail at the post office or open a bank account.

You do realize that in the United States it is possible to live your life without cigarettes, alcohol, porn, guns, a bank account and certified mail, right? We may choose these things, but we are also free not to choose them.

Anyone know if there's anything besides a social security card required of native born US citizens?
posted by VulcanMike at 9:05 PM on September 12, 2005

It's a good idea, poorly implemented. Accept driver's licenses or the state ID, and make the id card free, and available at any DMV. Simple.
posted by dsquid at 9:06 PM on September 12, 2005

Ziggy Zaga: When? I got a license back in May. A license still would not have cost me at or over $20, however, even with the discount.

july (registration required) and it would cost $15.

Then issue it for free to anyone who asks. If the state can mandate that this particular form of ID is required for the legal exercise of this fundamental right, then the State can fucking eat the cost of providing it for everyone.

fair enough.

Something that's being overlooked in our discussion is that there are very few places where you can actually get the IDs. Why not just do it through the DMV? That's how we roll in the Keystone state.

you can and do get licenses and ID cards through the DMV. there are many DMV outposts throughout the state of georgia. but according to the article, there just aren't any in the city of atlanta.
posted by Ziggy Zaga at 9:06 PM on September 12, 2005

This thing about being so poor you cant afford a 10 year ID? Im not buying it. Perhaps they want to lower the cost, but if you are that poor well sounds like you won't be able to prove where you live anyway.
posted by MrLint at 11:45 PM EST

It is $35.00. Apparently you don't have any elderly relatives living on social security. If you are trying to live on Social Security you may have $200.00 or less to buy all your food and medication for a month. The point is not that they can't come up with the money, the point is at that level it is a huge sacrifice and many people might just say, "Fuck it. It's not worth $35.00 just so I can vote."

Voting is for everyone. That's what Democracy means.

If they are serious about only accepting government ID at the polls, then the damn things should be free.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:07 PM on September 12, 2005

This is a handy tool for NY Times articles. In this case, the link is this.
posted by showmethecalvino at 9:11 PM on September 12, 2005

You do realize that in the United States it is possible to live your life without cigarettes, alcohol, porn, guns, a bank account and certified mail, right? We may choose these things, but we are also free not to choose them.

my point was, sooner or later you are likely to find yourself in a situation in which you need a license or ID card for something besides voting, regardless of whether it's a vice or just something mundane. if you can manage to live your life without ever needing to prove your identity to anyone, then congratulations.
posted by Ziggy Zaga at 9:14 PM on September 12, 2005

I don't know where you live, raysmj, but here in the great state of Oregon, the driver's license is $54.50 and the driving test itself is like $10.00.
posted by nonmerci at 9:20 PM on September 12, 2005

nonmerci: Pay attention! I live in Georgia, and was discussing the fee as compared with driver's license fees in the state under discussion. Thank you.
posted by raysmj at 9:22 PM on September 12, 2005

Raysmj: Um, okay, hostility. I was making a comment based on yours, and if you read my comment, you'll see it was devoid of snark. What is your problem?
posted by nonmerci at 9:23 PM on September 12, 2005

Aka, raysmj, my comment would be akin to saying "Holy shit, them licenses sure are cheap in your neck of the woods!" Better?
posted by nonmerci at 9:24 PM on September 12, 2005

I wasn't hostile. When the driver's license fee is $15 in Georgia and the fee for the card is $20, what I brought up was totally relevant. And where I lived was obviously relevant, and stated pretty much outright. I got a Georgia driver's license in May, as stated. I still live in Georgia, which is the state in question here. What's the deal? Why is the Oregon stuff relevant to anything I stated?
posted by raysmj at 9:29 PM on September 12, 2005

Well, whatever. But yeah, I noted as well that it's higher elsewhere, including some neighboring states. I heard talk of the same in the driver's license station from other newcomers. Ga. licenses are dirt cheap.
posted by raysmj at 9:30 PM on September 12, 2005

Many places required you to present valid state ID to law enforcement officials upon request. Failing to do so can result in imprisonment. On that note, any ID the state would ever require you to carry should be free. To do otherwise is a tax on our very freedom. The same goes for voting: if it's required, it must be free.
posted by mullingitover at 9:37 PM on September 12, 2005

i've noticed in michigan that they're closing secretary of state's offices right and left ... and it's often in poor areas ... could be a nationwide trend

it's outrageous that a town the size of atlanta doesn't have one
posted by pyramid termite at 9:39 PM on September 12, 2005

*snort*, if they wanted to do something about voter fraud perhaps *coff* Diebold would be a great place to start. (not sure if GA has those yet tho)

Of course to get ID you need supporting documents of some sort, so why can't you present those supporting documents to vote?
posted by edgeways at 9:45 PM on September 12, 2005

Should you be walking around without some form of ID? Im going to say no.



What ChrisChris said, too. Fucking republicans.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 9:46 PM on September 12, 2005

Adding insult to injury, the number of ID centers in Atlanta is currently ZERO

Why couldn't you get them at the same place you get driver's licenses? Thats where you get state IDs in Iowa, which you need to get into bars when your driver's license is suspended.
posted by delmoi at 9:47 PM on September 12, 2005

I do not ever remember having to present identification to vote. I just sign the book.
posted by caddis at 9:47 PM on September 12, 2005

It seems like I heard somewhere that in New York, at least, you're supposed to carry ID at all times, and if a cop stops you on the street and you don't have ID, you could be in trouble. A quick search tells another story, and I wonder if narrowing the scope of documents one can use to prove one's identity on Election Day isn't also a step in the direction of Brit-style Eurasia-cards.

Having a single (or two) ID for voting, in any case, allows the government to have more convenient control over who votes -- it may not be a nefarious plot on anyone's part, but the result is the same.

Also, in many places you need a birth certificate to get a driver's license, but to get a copy of a birth certificate, you need a driver's license. If you lose one, you could be in for a nightmare. I wouldn't be surprised if traps like this are built into Georgia's law, further controlling access to all the "rights" bestowed by this piece of plastic.

Actually, scratch that, here are the requirements for getting a Georgia state ID card.
posted by swift at 9:56 PM on September 12, 2005

For the poor these ID cards ARE free, you just have to say you can't afford the fee. Also, the state is running a bus around to help people who need ID sign up so that they can vote. See here.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:02 PM on September 12, 2005

No ID card paperwork without a properly notarized TPS cover sheet.
posted by Balisong at 10:09 PM on September 12, 2005

Good thing they have a bus because there seems to be nowhere to even get a driver's license in Atlanta.

Maybe the Georgians here can clear up this confusion.
posted by swift at 10:12 PM on September 12, 2005

Scrap the IDs altogether, and ink the finger.
posted by Kwantsar at 10:13 PM on September 12, 2005

Scrap the IDs altogether, and ink the finger.
posted by Kwantsar at 1:13 AM EST on September 13 [!]

It worked for the Iraqis, right? Or maybe not.
posted by Rothko at 10:24 PM on September 12, 2005

They should insist that the $20 be paid with a credit card.
posted by dreamsign at 10:28 PM on September 12, 2005

Then issue it for free to anyone who asks. If the state can mandate that this particular form of ID is required for the legal exercise of this fundamental right, then the State can fucking eat the cost of providing it for everyone.

Ontario recently switched to a photo health card. And they provided them free to anyone getting a new health card. Very convenient, actually - it's my only proof of age other than my passport. No bars accept in Ontario (don't know why), but here in CT they mostly look a little confused, look at me, and decide that I really do look 28.
posted by jb at 10:28 PM on September 12, 2005

For freedom and democracy, any legal citizen should be able to obtain the means to vote, free of charge, within the same area as voting occurs. It sickens me to even think that any American, let alone politically interested ones around here could stomach a de facto poll tax.

It doesn't matter if we can afford it. It doesn't matter if a part-time minimum wage worker can scrape up enough to afford it. We shouldn't have to. This is a fundamental right to democracy, and even suggesting that the people should put up with this should have someone tossed out of their cushy government job and into reality once more.

This is against everything America stands for, this is the sort of injustice that should have Sonny Perdue jeered out of office in shame, and his lackeys slavering behind. Let us never accept this injustice, lest it be we who find ourselves discouraged from our citizen's right to cast our vote!
posted by Saydur at 12:18 AM on September 13, 2005

Fortunately, the Supreme Court will strike this down as unconstitut--- oh, wait.
posted by keswick at 12:22 AM on September 13, 2005

Hello! I have lived and do currently (kinda) live in Atlanta. I say kinda live because Atlanta is a sprawling LA-type city with a mutltitude of suburbs. Take, for instance, the actual population of Atlanta. It's about 500K. Meanwhile the Metropolitan Atlanta Area encompasses a little around 4.5 million people. So it's no suprise that there might not be a place to go get a drivers licence/ID card in the actual city of Atlanta. Although, I do seem to remember a DMV location near the city jail and the courthouse downtown. Maybe it's closed now.

Anyway. I can't really speak with any authority on the fees for the ID card. When I got my ID card a few years ago (during a brief period of being banned from driving via my big lead foot) I only paid $8. I can, however, point out that the several cities listed as offering ID services are suburbs of Atlanta that are all well integrated into both it's regular life and into the city of Atlanta's rail system MARTA (the only public transit system other than NYC's that bans all photography, but that's another post altogether). Sandy Springs (where I live now) actually used to be part of the city of Atlanta, but recently voted to become its own city (mostly because they are a bunch of spoiled rich jackasses who don't like city taxes -- must. not. stray. off. topic.).

Try a little experiment. My old zip code from when I lived in Midtown Atlanta is 30318. plug that into the "locations" finder here with a 10 mile radius and note that four locations come up.
Marietta - to the NW of downtown ATL and accesible by CCT (Cobb Community Transit). Note that Cobb county has its own public bus system.
Decatur - to the East of downtown. Decatur is, more than any other suburb, integrated into the city of Atlanta and is easily accesible by rail and bus.
Forest Park - to the SSW. See the note about Decatur above.
Sandy Springs - as noted, Sandy Springs used to actually be part of Atlanta (although a farflung nothern bit). I've actually gotten my license at the Sandy Springs DMV and can assure you that it is but a long bus ride up Peachtree St. (the main street of ATL).

So anyway, while Atlanta may not have a DMV downtown it does have several DMVs surrounding downtown. This may seem ludicrous to those from more intelligently designed cities, like anyone from New England, for instance, but please keep in mind two things about Atlanta:

1) Atlanta is very small, but the Atlanta Metro Area sprawls like a drunk octopus across N. Georgia, so to really live there you need access to a car. This means that a 15 min drive, or a 30 min bus ride, to get an ID card, or get groceries, or go vote, is not exactly an unusual propostion.
2) Since everyone does need to drive the whole "ID cards cost more than Licenses" hububaloo is moot.

So those are the facts. Or at least, those are some facts. So please stop frothing. Maybe the new restrictions do screw the urban and rural poor, but it would hardly be the first, or the worst, time they got shafted. Before the shouting and head shaking continues, perhaps we should wait until a statewide election is held and then compare the demographics and the turnout to previous elections?
posted by TheSpook at 12:23 AM on September 13, 2005

This may seem ludicrous to those from more intelligently designed cities, like anyone from New England, for instance,

man what

Seriously, NE cities suck ass, design/getting around wise. Want to renew your liscense in Providence? Have fun driving to the annoying to get to one in Pawtucket or fucking West Warwick.
posted by Snyder at 12:38 AM on September 13, 2005

If you're worried about the poor not being able to afford the 20 bucks, you should be particularly angry that a license to drive a car (something poor people might not have, don't you think?) is the preferred form of identification.

The state should issue free state ID cards and require that that card, not a driver's license, be used for everything (alcohol purchases, etc.). You should be able to apply for such a card where and when you register to vote (and in other places). And such a general-purpose ID card could also indicate additional information such as, for example, whether you are licensed to drive in that state. That is, the general ID card should eliminate the driver's license.
posted by pracowity at 1:30 AM on September 13, 2005

my point was, sooner or later you are likely to find yourself in a situation in which you need a license or ID card for something besides voting, regardless of whether it's a vice or just something mundane. if you can manage to live your life without ever needing to prove your identity to anyone, then congratulations.

Ziggy Zaga: Now I don't live in the land of the free but the only photo ID I have is a passport which is in a cupboard somewhere since I changed to a job that requires a lot less travel. I'm 34, why would I need ID to buy cigs, booze or porn?
posted by biffa at 2:34 AM on September 13, 2005

biffa - it's because they ask you to present ID even if you are quite obviously over 18/21. I am just under 30 and I got asked for ID to go to a shop that sold hemp products when I was over. You want me to carry my incredibly valuable passport in case I need fucking hemp sandals or whilst I am in a busy nightclub?

Are you on glue?
posted by longbaugh at 4:20 AM on September 13, 2005

that last comment not directed at you biffa
posted by longbaugh at 4:21 AM on September 13, 2005

2) Since everyone does need to drive the whole "ID cards cost more than Licenses" hububaloo is moot.

I'm more than sure that plenty of Atlanta residents live without cars. Please.
posted by raysmj at 4:42 AM on September 13, 2005

You all have nothing to worry about. Sure the first cards will be $20, but then they'll lose a court battle and the cards will be made free, and presto-changeo*, you all get a national identity card. Better not forget it in your other suit though, mouhahahahaha!

*Actual time may vary, offer prohibited in some states.
posted by furtive at 4:51 AM on September 13, 2005

Maybe the new restrictions do screw the urban and rural poor, but it would hardly be the first, or the worst, time they got shafted.

So, no worries! What kind of reasoning is that?
posted by raysmj at 4:52 AM on September 13, 2005

Amusing watching a US centric debate. In Australia, voting is compulsory. Actually, turning up to a polling place on voting day (always a Saturday) is compulsory. Turn up, get your name crossed off the roll and you're done. Whether you vote after that is up to you.
Penalty for non-compliance? A$20- (about US$15).
Allowable excuses? Plenty, including being overseas, ill etc. Good thing about this system? Because it's compulsory (hence implying responsibility for citizens), taxes fund the expense of ensuring everyone can access a polling station - including ID, (which is almost too easy - roll up, give your name and address, I can't remember being asked for id), setting up polling stations in remote locations (20 million people in the area of the 48 US states) and having an independent body set electoral boundaries.
I lived in the USA for 3+ years. Thankyou guys for Jefferson, Adams, Franklin et al. Great stuff. After that, what happened? Light on a hill? Yeah, like watching a neighbourhood house burn down...
posted by ozjohn at 5:07 AM on September 13, 2005

I think we're missing the point here. The key fact is this one: Ms. Cox says she is unaware of a single documented case in recent years of fraud through impersonation of a voter at the polls. In the recent (pre-2001) past, in another state without a significant fraud problem (Calif.), I have voted with no ID ("roll up, give your name and address, get your name crossed off" just like ozjohn says it's done in Australia). P.S. I was also in charge of a polling place for the 2000 primary, so I can confirm that this was policy.
posted by Zurishaddai at 5:14 AM on September 13, 2005

Australia! Australia! Australia! Australia! We love ya!

This concern about voter fraud is a crock [more, and more], and is indeed the preferred tactic for employing methods -- such as a single method of identification -- that disenfranchise those who tend to vote for the party not in power. The idea that significant enough numbers of people create or steal documents in order to cross borders and vote, or vote more than once, is ludicrous. Intimidation, problems with absentee ballots, those are real concerns. This, on the other hand, is just bullshit.
posted by schoolgirl report at 5:41 AM on September 13, 2005

What a standard Republican ploy. They want to issue id cards. If they just came out and said "we want everyone in Georgia to carry an id card to vote" there would be the standard and justified "big brother" outrage but of course the Republicans have learned a thing or two about manipulating the hapless liberals in the past couple of decades. So they come out with an outrageous $20 election participatory fee - so the fee becomes the outrage - not the id card. The liberals fight tooth and nail - not about the idea of having to carry an id card - but about the fee. They eventually win the battle and the idea of a fee is dropped to the glee of all poor liberals everywhere while the Republicans chuckle to themselves wondering how this all got so easy...
posted by any major dude at 5:54 AM on September 13, 2005

Unless the vote scanning machines and central tallying machines are open for public inspection, this does nothing to address vote fraud.
posted by sonofsamiam at 6:02 AM on September 13, 2005

Funny how people who are adamantly against a paper trail to verify the votes have no problem with forcing everyone who votes to have an id card. We want to make sure we know exactly who votes but we have no interest in making sure those votes are counted correctly. Hypocrisy, thy name is the Republican Party.
posted by any major dude at 6:06 AM on September 13, 2005

MrLint : Im not thrilled by reading thing, however i think much is being made of possibly nothing. There is a clear public interest in eliminating voter fraud.

I'm all for stopping voter fraud too, but did you read this part of the article:

The vast majority of fraud complaints in Georgia, according to its secretary of state, Cathy Cox, involve absentee ballots, which are unaffected by the new law. Ms. Cox says she is unaware of a single documented case in recent years of fraud through impersonation of a voter at the polls.

It seems like the state is trying to "solve" a problem that doesn't really exist. I, too, feel that something is being made of nothing, but I don't think it's the ID requirement (which, to me, is a big issue). An unnecessary and probably unconstitutional response to a situation that doesn't really exist is where something is being made from nothing.
posted by Godbert at 7:01 AM on September 13, 2005

I live in GA and have been following this story for a while. This whole thing got started when the Republicans took control of both houses of the legislature and the governor's office for the first time since reconstruction. (Of course, most GA Democrats are indistinguishable from Republicans--see Zell Miller) When this happened there was some mumbling about fraud associated with the new computerized voting machines and absentee ballots, but nothing ever came of it except this legislation. Given my state's past history of trampling voting rights and the fact that absentee ballots are much more prone to abuse (and have been misused by the state Republicans in recent elections) yet are not affected by this bill, I smell a rat. The Atlanta Journal-Constitution has an article here.
posted by TedW at 7:07 AM on September 13, 2005

Here is what the Republicans did with absentee ballots in 2004 in GA. I know the source is obviously partisan, but the facts and the law violated are not in dispute.
posted by TedW at 7:15 AM on September 13, 2005

There are still a lot of whites in Georgia trying to stuff the genie back into the bottle that Lincoln released 140 or so years ago. Good luck with that. With approximately one quarter of the population being black, they may not like the reaction in the voters during upcoming elections. It may actually increase voting among the population in which they are blatantly attempting to suppress the vote.
posted by caddis at 7:27 AM on September 13, 2005

Driver's License Facility
1296 Moreland Avenue
Atlanta, GA 30316
Open Tue.-Sat.: 9 a.m.-5 p.m.
(Motorcycle testing available)
posted by toothless joe at 7:34 AM on September 13, 2005

I'm in Ohio, and I just recently obtained my driver's license at the age of 27.

For the last 11 years, I have had in my possession a State ID card. This card is required for banking transactions, using credit cards at many retailers, and obtaining various services through my state and federal governments. In addition, this identification is required to board any flight in the US, unless you have a US issued Passport.

Now, this ID card, which did not allow me to drive, proved my identity, by providing my picture and my personal information. While these cards can be forged, there is a constant effort to reduce the ability to forge these cards.

I'm very liberal. Very much in favor of an individual's rights over a corporations, etc, etc.

But it's a freaking ID card!! Just go get one. It's not hard, but you have to try to prove you are who you are, and then you have it, and you can use it.

People bitch about the stupidest things, sometimes. Its a flipping ID card. It's not like you were asked to pay $500 to obtain a ballot. $20, every 4 years in Ohio, not sure about other states. I'm sure even the worst begger on earth could muster up $20. Stand outside the DMV, and tell people you need money to get your ID card. Someone is bound to help.
posted by benjh at 8:03 AM on September 13, 2005

Godbert,

How do they expect to find voter fraud at the polls if there is no photo ID requirement? Bringing in a utility bill with a name on it, as long as the gender is correct will be assumed to be valid ID (for the sake of argument). How can you determine if there is fraud if you have no way of validation?

As for the other person, one very real reason to have ID on you is in case of an accident. Unless of course you dont want to be found by your relatives.
posted by MrLint at 8:13 AM on September 13, 2005

Stand outside the DMV, and tell people you need money to get your ID card. Someone is bound to help.

um... that's a pretty perverse situation right there.

dude. 20 bucks is 20 bucks. a lot of people would be in a position of having to choose food for the kids or an ID card. guess which one they would choose.
posted by poweredbybeard at 8:21 AM on September 13, 2005

MrLint, exactly how do you think vote fraud that depends on the absence of photo IDs is going to work?

The cost-effective fraud methods will not be affected by this measure.
posted by sonofsamiam at 8:34 AM on September 13, 2005

Good god, are you people defending this thing being willfully obtuse? "It's just twenty bucks!" "Everyone needs an ID card!" How many times must it be said: many, many people who already tend not to vote because of the obstacles in their way will now have yet another reason not to go to the polls. And yes, the indigent can get it for free. But who decides who qualifies?

As I said earlier, the fraud issue is a red herring. A birth certificate and a utility bill is plenty sufficient to prove ID for voting purposes. It proves you exist and that you live in the state. Hell, in New Hampshire you can register on voting day by simply signing a form saying you are who you say you are (and the Republican legislature is fighting that as well).

Didn't any of you get fake IDs? How hard was that? This ID requirement does nothing to address fraud. Nothing.
posted by schoolgirl report at 8:49 AM on September 13, 2005

I have never had any problems at all doing any sort of business with just my Social Security card and birth certificate. I didn't even get a driver's license until late in life ... well after I was an adult, had a bank account and had voted in federal elections. Having a drivers license or state issued ID card is not a requirement for existence. You can live without either of them, without any actual hassle at all, and many people do. My mom didn't have any state issued card until my dad died and she had to learn how to drive, and she managed to carry on with her life just fine until she was over 60 years old.

Need a SSN? Need a bank account? Need a voter registration card? Want to work? You don't need a state issued card for any of these things. All of them can be had with a SSN, a birth certificate and maybe a paycheck stub or utility bill.

Like schoolgirl report said, it isn't about the amount of money involved, though I think it does sound like a poll tax to me -- or at least just one more obstacle to voting. This is about them wanting everyone to have to have a state issued card of some sort which can then be turned into a national ID card with little fuss.
posted by Orb at 9:22 AM on September 13, 2005

I once got a fake ID to see if I could. I had a real (and valid) ID as well. Tried the fake, and it got taken. Showed my real ID, and confused the hell out of the bouncer. If a very large (and none-too-bright) person can detect the difference, I'd hope that the state would train elections officials to spot problems.

It's far easier to forge a birth certificate and SSN card. Given a few minutes with photoshop and a scanner, and I could produce a utility bill, too. Now, with no photo ID of any kind I'm eligible to vote somewhere if I've registered in advance. Sorry, but that is an insufficient guard against fraud in my book.

And, I know fraud happens -- when I was still in my stupid-longhair-hippie days (as opposed to my cynical-longhair days of the present) we were actively encouraged to get photocopies of the voter rolls from an 'issues-coordinator' and show up to vote on issues of significance. That (among other things) encouraged me to leave that life behind for something that didn't offend my sense of morality. I was in the minority for leaving, so I'm guessing the same thing is still happening, and people are still faking out the system.
posted by dwivian at 10:54 AM on September 13, 2005

Once again, is there any vote-fraud system that uses fake IDs as a component that is more cost-effective than a vote-fraud system employing either electronic ballot machines or the central tallying machines?

I'm pretty confident there isn't (but would love to hear about any such scheme). If I'm right, any photo ID requirement is a NON-solution to modern voting security flaws. Therefore, this particular measure is not motivated by any genuine security concern.
posted by sonofsamiam at 11:00 AM on September 13, 2005

Here in NYC we don't require any proof of identification to vote. I voted this morning and all I had to do was give my address and name.

You shouldn't be required to provide any sort of ID to vote.
posted by bshort at 11:03 AM on September 13, 2005

There are only about 60 offices that can give you a Driver's license or ID card, and we have 159 counties. That's not even one office per county if you're keeping up with that. It is hard on the urban poor in Atlanta -- or anyone without a car -- but it's going to be doubly hard on rural people who are very far from any particular DMV office.
posted by Medieval Maven at 11:03 AM on September 13, 2005

I'm 34, why would I need ID to buy cigs, booze or porn?

At my local A&P they ID everyone who's buying booze or smokes. I've seen them demand ID from a gray-haired wrinkly old grandma.


so what? assuming you don't have a driver's license, you'd need the damn thing anyway if you want to buy cigarettes, alcohol, porn or guns. you would need the damn thing anyway to pick up certified mail at the post office or open a bank account.

Some people (in some areas, lots of people) do not buy these things legally, hence have no need to show ID. Those same people probably are unlikely to have bank accounts or receive certified mail.
posted by scratch at 11:42 AM on September 13, 2005

Those of you who haven't ever met anyone who couldn't afford an ID card have led some extremely sheltered lives. How about getting out there and doing some volunteer work with Atlanta's poor, or wherever you live?
posted by hazyjane at 11:44 AM on September 13, 2005

So all this IDing stuff... is that what makes America a "free country"?

Not that it matters, as regards voting: you have only one political party. Compared to every other civilized nation on earth, both your parties are right-wing, and both are corrupt to the core. Add in paperless, insecure voting machines and a promise from the manufacturer to deliver the votes to his preferred party, and wtf, you might as well stay home.

What y'all need to do is start supporting real alternative candidates. I've seen a few politicians on The Daily Show that show great potential. They talk common sense, they appear to actually care to deliver performance to the citizens, they don't appear to be in anyone's pocket.

In short, unless y'all change your system, you're completely screwed. The USA will continue to collapse, and you -- the not-mega-wealthy -- will get badly hurt.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:02 PM on September 13, 2005

Sorry to add on to a moribund thread like this, but I wanted to throw my two cents in:

1. I've been living inside the Atlanta Perimeter without a driver's license for years now and had absolutely no problem setting up a bank account; when you buy cigarettes the cashiers generally just ask your birthdate if you look old enough; as far as I know getting a drink-- legally or otherwise-- can be just as easy; and porn?!? Um, this is the internet. I don't see anything requiring state ID for gun purchases or prohibiting sales to those without, and I'm pretty sure I've picked up mail at the post office with nothing more than a general photo ID. So are any of those reasons valid? (Never mind that most of them aren't as important as the right to vote anyway.)

2. schoolgirl report's first link mentions it and TedW highlights a (no longer illegal) balloting strategy, but I don't think this thread fully explores the hypocrisy angle of this new law. See, while alternative ID users-- more likely to be poorer, older, less mobile and/or darker (and Democrats)-- are having their options restricted, absentee balloteers-- more frequently Republican-- got their loopholes expanded. Completely coincidentally, of course. Don't bother asking proponents why this is so; they get conspicuously quiet whenever someone does.

3. A few politicians gave lip service to some kind of rolling registration site, but it sounds very inefficient. Will it be a fleet of registration vehicles covering the state like ice cream trucks? Will it be round the clock? Will would-be voters have to stay home and wait to be visited like cable subscribers? Does the idea of tracking down every registrant sound even remotely feasible to anyone? It sounds prohibitively messy to me.

4. I'm poor but not indigent and a state ID would have no other real use, so in my case this boils down to "pay a fee or be disenfranchised," no matter how simple or inconsequential people tell me it is. Can someone explain to me how this is not a poll tax?

5. Georgia is one of the states still under the jurisdiction of the Voting Rights Act of 1965, but as the Justice Department already declined to get involved once, my voting hopes for the near future remain low. But of course Georgia is now a 100% Diebold state, so it's not that I had much faith to lose.
posted by tyro urge at 9:07 AM on September 15, 2005

FWIW, some new Diebold info has come to (unconfirmed) light.

The issue is with the central tabulating machines, as I have been expecting since I first begain researching the topic. Those machines have not received anything like the outside scrutiny that many touch-screen machines have. They are also frequently glossed over in official descriptions of the process.

The real capability for massive vote-fraud in America is not at all ameliorated by poll taxes in the form of ID requirements.
posted by sonofsamiam at 2:00 PM on September 15, 2005