Explosion Over the N-Word

September 20, 2005 8:14 AM

Explosion Over the N-WordWhen Kanye West blasted President Bush’s treatment of poor black people in New Orleans after Katrina hit, the rapper unintentionally set off a hurricane of words in Florida. The Independent Florida Alligator, the student newspaper, ran a cartoon last week that criticized West’s statements by showing him holding a large playing card marked “The Race Card,” and having Condoleezza Rice, the secretary of state, exclaim with scorn at West: “Nigga Please!”
posted by Postroad (135 comments total)

I thought something actually blew up.

That it's just a bunch of idiots complaining is really just a letdown.
posted by wakko at 8:16 AM on September 20, 2005

There are a lot of people who claim that "Nigga" and "Nigger" are diffrent words.

Those people are idiots.
posted by delmoi at 8:17 AM on September 20, 2005

People are upset over something a student newspaper ran? Wow, that never happens.
posted by spicynuts at 8:21 AM on September 20, 2005

I tried posting this on the linked site:

Did anyone stop to think that the cartoon was offensive because it depicted Condi Rice as an illiterate thug?

That even when a black woman works her ass off, becomes fluent in Russian, becomes the most powerful women in the world, she can never disassociate herself from the 'ghetto' in the mind of white people, like those who published this cartoon?

Why don't you send Condi a copy of this cartoon and ask her what she thinks about it?

The cartoon is offensive to blacks because it proclaims that African Americans can never 'escape' their association with crudeness and illiteracy no matter how hard they try. That IS racist.

I don't particularly like Kanye's music, but I know he raps about Jesus and how much he loves his mom. He's hardly a stereotypical rapper Does he use the N-word in his music? I don't know. But I know that since he's a black rapper, ya'll think he's a brain-dead thug.

posted by delmoi at 8:31 AM on September 20, 2005

Hmm, does Kanye use the N-word?
posted by delmoi at 8:33 AM on September 20, 2005

the student newspaper ran a cartoon last week that criticized West’s statements by showing him holding a large playing card marked “The Race Card,”

Goodness, how cartoons have evolved over the centuries.
posted by NinjaPirate at 8:36 AM on September 20, 2005

Does anyone know the origin of the phrase "nigga please" ?
I seem to recall hearing it in the late 90's.
I wonder who first said it...

Why is it always racist when "someone" else says it, but never a problem when "they" say it.

Personally I like the 2nd rendition of the cartoon, as it is the one I understand.
posted by a3matrix at 8:36 AM on September 20, 2005

As a cracker honky, I take offence at people being offended.

Get over it. There are much more worse things you could be called these days. Neo-con, Santorum, Liberal and Rag-head come to mind.
posted by Balisong at 8:38 AM on September 20, 2005

Hmm, does Kanye use the N-word?
posted by delmoi at 8:33 AM PST on September 20

Yes.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 8:38 AM on September 20, 2005

“Such depictions reinforce hurtful and damaging stereotypes. They poison the ongoing struggle to overcome the racial barriers that divide our country, and give comfort to bigots who seek affirmation for their racism.” He added that he and many students and faculty members were “disgusted by the image and discouraged that such an insensitive cartoon could be published in a newspaper that, while independent from the university, is written and edited by UF students.”

Wassup? Snoop Dogg says "nigga please" all the time and no one raises an eyelash. Is it perhaps the criticism leveled at Dear Leader which is the real problem here?
posted by three blind mice at 8:39 AM on September 20, 2005

nick or treat
posted by Pretty_Generic at 8:40 AM on September 20, 2005

For context, "Nigga Please" was the name of a 1999 album by Ol' Dirty Bastard (aka Ol Dirt McGirt aka Big Baby Jesus). I'm not sure if he was the first (mainstream) rapper to use the phrase, but yeah, there you go.
posted by almostcool at 8:42 AM on September 20, 2005

Condi is gangsta
posted by matteo at 8:44 AM on September 20, 2005

"N" please dates further back than that Jack. Used by Redd
Foxx and LaWanda Page in the 60's for their chittlin circuit
comedy acts.
posted by doctorschlock at 8:54 AM on September 20, 2005

on preview, what docschlock said.

it might be noted that the first "mainstream" use of the n-word in a similar context is richard pryor's crossover album "n***** please."
posted by dickumbrage at 8:57 AM on September 20, 2005

The quote in the "extended" version, that's not something Rice actually said, just something they made up for the cartoon, right? Or did she actually say that?
posted by funambulist at 8:57 AM on September 20, 2005

richard pryor, of course, has since disavowed the use of the word for comedy or other artistic work.
posted by dickumbrage at 8:58 AM on September 20, 2005

and the richard pryor album is called "that n*****'s crazy."
posted by dickumbrage at 8:59 AM on September 20, 2005

to everybody who points out the use of the word by rappers:

did you read the article? here's a retort directly from there:

“It is true that many Black students found the problem with the word because a White person used it. I would like for the White community to realize that when White people have called Blacks ‘nigger’ for generations and Blacks find a means of ‘changing’ the meaning of the word as a source of ’strength,’ it is still obviously not meant for White people to use.

Why the fuck do the apathetic ones always post first? You'd think if you all cared that little, you wouldn't consistently be the first posts on every thread.
posted by shmegegge at 8:59 AM on September 20, 2005

He introduced me to his new girlfriend Lena, a charming, quick witted Scandinavian. Over crab meat enchiladas and margaritas, the three of us traded opinions on everything from music to space travel.

At some point, Darren jokingly said something fairly innocuous, to which Lena casually responded, "Nigga, please."

The word slid off her tongue easily, almost lovingly, like someone accustomed to using it.

The table stopped. Before her boyfriend could speak, I calmly told Lena I didn't appreciate that word coming from her. I explained that if it had to be used at all, it should only be used by black people.
posted by three blind mice at 9:01 AM on September 20, 2005

Hmmm... student newspaper publishes inflammatory content. Students hold protests in response. Yeah, good to see college hasn't changed much in the last 50 years.

Far worse has been said on MetaFilter, which is read by far more.
posted by mkultra at 9:03 AM on September 20, 2005

Since the phrase in question, translated into honky-speak, means "give me a break," I take the cartoon to be a criticism of Kanye's comment (and his supposed "playing the race card"). I think the fact is Kanye's just wrong. Bush doesn't hate black people (he's crackers about Condi). He hates poor people. Or, at the very least, poor people just don't register on his radar, which comes to the same thing.

delmoi's criticism is valid. But it's also possible that putting a slang expression into Condi's mouth is just an attempt at irony: it's the fact that we don't think of her as speaking that way that makes it funny, just like a cartoon with rednecks spouting on about quantum dynamics or modern poetry.

Political cartoons often play off stereotypes and oversimplifications. Nothing to see here, folks. Move on...
posted by wheat at 9:04 AM on September 20, 2005

You know, I don't know quite what to think of this. And I mean that literally. I'm not saying "I'm appalled to the point where I can't fathom this incident," or anything like that. I just mean that I'm not sure where my sense of right and wrong fits in this. I mean, I've heard black comedians use the phrase a thousand times. Was this a black comedian or cartoonist? Oh. No, it's not. Still is the word even used derogatorily? Not really. And it makes a wildly misinformed but nonetheless reasoned point.

But then, the phrase has taken on a form of stereotyping itself, hasn't it? Certainly the attitude one associates with someone using the phrase is an entire racial stereotype all its own. The problem is that it's not a stereotype that applies to either Kanye West or Condoleeza Rice. So why is it there? Why foist this racially stereotypical depiction on someone for whom it clearly doesn't apply? Most notably, why use it in regards to a celebrity who, no matter how poorly articulated, was trying to make a statement against racism?

You know, now that I think about it, I know exactly what to think of it. This is racist pap, but not because of the N word. And fuck that editor for using this opportunity to get on his soapbox. fucking douchebag.
posted by shmegegge at 9:07 AM on September 20, 2005

The rather unusual*, but brilliant, soul singer Swamp Dogg did a rather pointed (and often insightful and ritously funny) explication of "nigger," ('nigga' is left out of the equation) in his song "Appelle Moi Noir" (sadly no lyrics or audio links to be found) on his album Surfin' In Harlem.

*picture Wilson Pickett meets Frank Zappa in a bad mood.

As far as my own opinion of 'nigga" being used by white folks. I've seen it used in my prescence by blacks and Latinos, even been reffered to as "my nigga," on occasion, but I don't use it. It's not that much of a loss to me.
posted by jonmc at 9:09 AM on September 20, 2005

I will never ever read The Independent Florida Alligator again...
posted by hellbient at 9:10 AM on September 20, 2005

and by the way, that nick or treat ytmnd site is hysterical. thanks, P_G.
posted by shmegegge at 9:10 AM on September 20, 2005

Is it perhaps the criticism leveled at Dear Leader which is the real problem here?

What criticism of Dear Leader?

The point of the cartoon was the Kanye was just a dumb ol' buck nigger for saying that Bush doesn't care about blacks. Sometimes, people get a bit hysterical. This I can see being offended by.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:15 AM on September 20, 2005

that Kanye. Only Mr. The Rock gets a the.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:17 AM on September 20, 2005

You are aware, shemegegge, that the internet covers different time zones.

...it is still obviously not meant for White people to use.

Pretty much the only white cartoon characters that could get away with it are Homer and Bart Simpson. But no kidding. I am sympathetic to the idea that white people saying "nigga please" is different than when African-Americans say it. Whites don't know the struggle.

But Condolezza Rice is an African-American. How is her voice "white?" It seems to me that this guy is crying racism as an easy way of ending and avoiding criticism of Ms Rice.

It seems to me that it is Herr Bush who played the race card when he sent Ms Rice down to Louisiana to show that he really did care about black people. Nigga please.
posted by three blind mice at 9:20 AM on September 20, 2005

But George Bush doesn't like black people.
posted by Divine_Wino at 9:20 AM on September 20, 2005

Also the attitude that because black rappers say 'nigger' all the time, its somehow OK for white folks to use it, and hypocritical for black people to get offended by that is just bizarre.
posted by delmoi at 9:22 AM on September 20, 2005

Pretty much the only white cartoon characters that could get away with it are Homer and Bart Simpson.

But they're just yellow trash.
posted by jonmc at 9:23 AM on September 20, 2005

But Condoleeza Rice didn't say it. The cartoonist put words in her mouth that she has never, to my knowledge, uttered in public. Nothing in her demeanor or public persona implies that she would ever have said it, either.
posted by shmegegge at 9:24 AM on September 20, 2005

Also the attitude that because black rappers say 'nigger' all the time, its somehow OK for white folks to use it, and hypocritical for black people to get offended by that is just bizarre.

I once heard a black woman explain it to a few white guys who used that gambit, by saying that it's "like when someone insults your mother. You can run her down all you want, because she's yours to get pissed at, but anyone else does it? It's on."
posted by jonmc at 9:25 AM on September 20, 2005

"Everybody should go home to Africa," writes Pryor. "Everybody. There is so much to see there in the eye and the heart./The one thing I got out of it was magic, it was like I was leaving and I was sitting in a hotel and a voice said to me, ‘Look around what do you see?’/‘I see all colors of people doing everything,’ I said./‘Do you see any niggas?’ the voice said. I said, ‘No . . . and you know why? Cause there aren’t any.’

"It hit me like a shot man. I started cryin’ and shit. I was sitting there sayin’, ‘I’ve been here three weeks and I haven’t said it. I haven’t even thought it. It made me say, ‘oh my God, I’ve been wrong.’ I got to regroup my shit. I ain’t gonna nevah call another black man nigga ’cause we nevah was no niggas."
posted by exlotuseater at 9:29 AM on September 20, 2005

Bush doesn't hate black people (he's crackers about Condi)

Oh come on...

Plus the phrase was he doesn't care about black people, not he hates black people. Let's all take it uber literally now and pretend Kanye West was accusing Bush of despising every individual black person, not referring to the poor black people of NO who had been stuck in the city waiting for help, right? Disagree with the sentiment all you like, disagree with the choice of target for that accusation or with the accusation itself, despise the messenger too if you want, but it was very clear what the message referred to. And at least he was slightly aware of the irony of a millionaire rapper speaking out for the working class. That Condoleeza Rice is black and friends with Bush is neither here nor there, and it's one reason the extended "quote" (and I do hope it's made up) is so poor an explanation for such a poor attempt at satire.

Or are politics just a matter of personal friendships now?
posted by funambulist at 9:29 AM on September 20, 2005

Meanwhile, students have been protesting the Grammy awarded to Jay Z:

Nigga what, nigga who?
Nigga what, nigga who?
Switcha flow, getcha dough
Can't fuck with this Roc-a-Fella shit doe
Switcha flow, getcha dough
Can't fuck with this Roc-a-Fella shit doe
posted by The Jesse Helms at 9:33 AM on September 20, 2005

it is still obviously not meant for White people to use.

Those racist niggers!
posted by The Jesse Helms at 9:34 AM on September 20, 2005

But Condoleeza Rice didn't say it. The cartoonist put words in her mouth that she has never, to my knowledge, uttered in public. Nothing in her demeanor or public persona implies that she would ever have said it, either.

Dude, in the cartoon she said it.

The issue is that some people are (again) upset by a stupid cartoon depicting the Secretary of State, who is African American, saying "Nigga Please."

Again, how is this "white" use? Does it matter at all who the cartoonist is? The cartoon itself is what is at issue.
posted by three blind mice at 9:34 AM on September 20, 2005

Thank you wheat, for being the only one who apparently gets it, instead of jumping on the self-flagellatory PC bandwagon. Political cartoonery, if it's any good, always has an edge. Instead of fuck the editor, fuck the folks who want to miss the point so they can degenerate this into the same old comfortable rant and feel so smug.
posted by Pressed Rat at 9:37 AM on September 20, 2005

Oh good, this debate again. Look, no statements exist independently of context and when judging whether or not a cartoon/song/whatever is offensive, this context is supremely important. So just because one group uses the n-word in a certain way does not mean you can equate it with another usage by another group in another way.

I'm always surprised when a thirty-party responds to a person getting upset by saying, "it's just a joke." If person C doesn't get why person B is upset with person A, wouldn't it be more interesting to ask for an explanation instead of getting angry?

And while we're at it, can we please retire the idea of a "race card." Whenever anyone decides to discuss race in anything other than the mainstream we're-all-friends-now way, the right gets up in arms and uses this really dismissive term. Unless, of course, you're David Horowitz writing articles entitled "Guns Don't Kill Black People, Other Black People Do." Somehow, that guy wasn't playing the race card.
posted by allen.spaulding at 9:40 AM on September 20, 2005

It was the legendary K.O. song that used the phrase "George Bush don't like black people." (lyrics/self-link)

I spent longer making the decision to publish the lyrics than I did transcribing them. My ancestry is Irish and Italian. We've never been anywhere near the socioeconomic level of the the Bushies, but no one in my family (back at least 3 generations) was a slave. All four of my grandparents moved to the US in the early 1900s.

I say all that because I'll never have a frickin clue what it is like to put up white people using that asinine word. I can't stand the connotation of it when a "non-white" uses, let alone a "white." It's all about the connotation people. I don't care who uses it.

But I published the lyrics anyway. I wish the authors had used other words, but they didn't. I felt the overall message was important.

If the editorial cartoonist was white he/she doesn't have the history to use the phrase and have it be anything other than demeaning.
posted by ?! at 9:46 AM on September 20, 2005

Holy fuck, dude.

If a white person makes condoleeza rice, who has never said that word or phrase in public (and indeed, whose public persona implies she wouldn't say it privately, either. (though that's speculation on my part.)) say it in his cartoon, then it's really him saying it. And if you refuse to allow that, then by all means, feel free to tell black people what they can and can't be offended by. I won't stop you, and this is the end of me calling you on it.

but like I said above, it's not the word I have a problem with, but the improperly applied racial stereotype.

pressed rat:

but it's not funny, and it's inaccurate. It's not even all that politically savvy, as funambulist made pretty clear. See, they're not refusing to get the joke. They get it. It's not that smart, so it's not going over their heads. It's that it's not only wrong and unfunny, but offensive. See?

But hey, so long as it's political commentary, then it can't be racist, right? After all, what a person is offended by can't possibly exist in the same realm as political cartoonery! christ.
posted by shmegegge at 9:46 AM on September 20, 2005

Sticks and stones, people. Sticks and stones.

So. Er. What if the cartoonist WAS black?

Oh. Yeah. I forget.

Only white people can be racist. And stereotyping is worst thing in the world. Even more so when it might me accurate. I keep forgetting the rules, sorry.

But Condoleeza Rice didn't say it.

Wow. Then Saturday Night Live has a great deal to answer for.
posted by tkchrist at 9:47 AM on September 20, 2005

shmegegge, do you apply the same rules to all artistic works? film? literature? can certain words not be used by fictional characters (or satirized characters) unless the color of skin of the author (or authors) is proper?

nigga, please.
posted by NationalKato at 9:50 AM on September 20, 2005

"Nigga" and "Nigger" are diffrent words. They're even spelled differently.

No racism here, but "Nigga, please" needs a comma.

It is true that many Black students found the problem with the word because a White person used it

I don't get it. In the cartoon, Condi says it. She's black. I don't think the author of the cartoon was ever identified.

Also the attitude that because black rappers say 'nigger' all the time, its somehow OK for white folks to use it, and hypocritical for black people to get offended by that is just bizarre.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, nigger.
posted by mrgrimm at 9:50 AM on September 20, 2005

Just for the record, here is the original and a follow up that seems to have been posted a few days later:

http://www.alligator.org/pt2/images/opinion/050913bcartoon.jpg

http://www.alligator.org/pt2/images/opinion/050919bcartoon.jpg

I love how the cartoonist refuses to apologize and, in my opinion, implies that those who derided the cartoon didn't understand it. Now I get it; the problem was that we're all dumb.
posted by allen.spaulding at 9:55 AM on September 20, 2005

NationalKato:

no, I'm just saying that if someone is offended by it, it's not because they're crazy or oversensitive. Again, I'm not bothered by the N word, here.

I am, however, bothered by the portrayal of Condoleeza Rice (as much as I despise her) as some kind of sassy black stereotype, when it clearly doesn't apply to her. ESPECIALLY when it's used to attack someone speaking out against what he perceived as the racist policies of our current administration. See? The cartoonist is basically just throwing in the only black administration member he knows of, and applying the stereotype to her because he thinks it's funny.

Where's the joke? Oh right, the joke is that she's acting like a sassy black street chick. God, that is both funny and politically savvy! I take it all back! [/sarcasm]
posted by shmegegge at 9:57 AM on September 20, 2005

Wow. Then Saturday Night Live has a great deal to answer for.

Yes, they do, but I think it's a bit of a derail to bring up the fact that SNL hasn't been funny in 20 years.
posted by shmegegge at 9:58 AM on September 20, 2005

this is interesting. i'm a UF student and haven't heard anything about this.

we have 50,000 students at this school. a few hundred will complain on any given day if it's raining. it's meaningless.
posted by teletype1 at 10:02 AM on September 20, 2005

There are two "blacks": the skin color (or variation) and some widely-stereotyped social constructions we have in the US. The second has something to do with culture, struggle, (sometimes) economic class, and public perception. Arguably you could be the latter without being the former, but anyone who says "white people can't say nigga" are definitely against this concept.

The humor of the comic is that Rice is part of the first group, but certainly not the second. That's where the funny comes in. It's even funnier when you consider that some people think Kanye isn't allowed in the latter group because he's the son of a college professor and has no "street cred" outside of his production skills. He's made his name producing for many artists, but primarily one who bootstrapped his career off of drug money.

"Nigger" and "nigga" are pretty much homophones but the meaning widely differs. Much like the two types of "black" I mentioned above. In fact, exactly like that. Untwist your panties, people.

On a related note, it's rumored Kanye was going to use the refrain "That's that crack music homey, that real black music homey" on his album, but "homey" didn't have the ring of "nigga." I think socially and linguistically he's right.
posted by mikeh at 10:05 AM on September 20, 2005

I am, however, bothered by the portrayal of Condoleeza Rice (as much as I despise her) as some kind of sassy black stereotype, when it clearly doesn't apply to her.

This is where the funny is, people. What's that term for doing the opposite of the expected reaction, sometimes for comic purposes? Oh yeah, irony!
posted by mikeh at 10:08 AM on September 20, 2005

The furor over the cartoon? Meh. It completely doesn't matter if the cartoonist was black or white or purple... if people are offended, I think it would be about portraying Rice as someone who would use the word "nigga". Whatever that implies.

However, there's something to be discussed (separate of the cartoon) about the use of the word in any circumstance, as well as why white people can't say it without offending black people.
posted by Specklet at 10:11 AM on September 20, 2005

mikeh:

I totally forgot that neiher irony nor jokes can be offensive. Sorry. You're totally right.

Wait... no, you're not.
posted by shmegegge at 10:11 AM on September 20, 2005

Maybe I'm way off base here, but the joke as I see it is as follows:

Kayne West said something incorrect and a little stupid. (I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt here and say it was because he was upset. The circumstances upset everyone and we all did stupid things, just not on live national TV.) Condi Rice is a prime example of a powerful black person in Bush's cabinet. She obviously refutes Kayne's argument.

Now, had she said (in the cartoon) something like "Hello, what about me?", the joke would not have been funny or biting -- the way an editorial cartoon is supposed to be. It wouldn't have drawn any attention to the real issue here -- Kayne West is incorrect and misleading hundreds of thousands of people (once again, not maliciously, but still...).

Further defense for the n-word: Kayne talks like that, so it's not unreasonable from a cartoon sense for Condi to speak that way to him to mock him.

This is all "as I see it"; let me know if I'm out of touch on anything.
posted by Imperfect at 10:11 AM on September 20, 2005

Far worse has been said on MetaFilter, which is read by far more.

Don't count on it -- the Alligator is read by 50-60,000 people every day. Matt says MetaFilter tops out well below that.
posted by jjg at 10:13 AM on September 20, 2005

maybe I'm obsessing. I don't have work today, so I'll just take some time out rather than respond to everything.

Dear boredom,

Fuck Off.

sincerely,
shmegegge
posted by shmegegge at 10:14 AM on September 20, 2005

I am, however, bothered by the portrayal of Condoleeza Rice (as much as I despise her) as some kind of sassy black stereotype, when it clearly doesn't apply to her.

shmegegge, it's a political cartoon. have you ever seen the ones showing Dubya as a chimpanzee? or other stereotypes? it's a caricature...the moment when people start taking political cartoons as reality or some absolute reflection of reality is the moment we've truly lost it.
posted by NationalKato at 10:19 AM on September 20, 2005

I'm sorry shmegegge. I realized I pulled your comment out as an example, but I think you're ascribing more intentions to the cartoonist than are necessarily there. Everyone used Condi as the the token counter-argument against the "Bush doesn't like black people" argument. Everyone I heard, at least. If the comic is just repeating that line, fine. But by having that line coming out of her mouth, to me, it shows that we're talking about two different types of black here. Condi isn't black. Not black. Doesn't fit the stereotype.

If the word, in any use whatsoever, offends you, then I apologize. That's a valid stance and you can deem it offensive.
posted by mikeh at 10:19 AM on September 20, 2005

"Nigga Please" was around in the 70's, kiddies.
And back then there was no attempt to make a distinction betwee "nigga" and "nigger".
posted by 2sheets at 10:20 AM on September 20, 2005

Cartoons are caricatures, used for satirical effect - they often offend. I'm offended by a lot myself, not least the incompetence of the Mayor of New Orleans. I choose to interpret the cartoon's intent as denigrating the implied/expressed message of Kenye - as wheat said, "Give me a break."

His comment appealed to knee-jerk sympathizers predisposed to view the situation in NO from a racial perspective. There are other, equally if not more plausible ways to view that breakdown. Slide on over to the OP-Ed page at the WP for one by Cohen that is worth considering. You choose what you want to think & how you should react shmegegge, I'll do the same.


posted by Pressed Rat at 10:21 AM on September 20, 2005

My sister and I are very, very white. She's been dating a black guy for a couple years now, and he says nigga all the time. All the time! Everyone, from his parents' yorkshire terrier to the President of the United States is a nigga. My sister says it, too, being (in her mind) an honorary black girl, but she limits herself to saying it in front of people she knows pretty well and is pretty comfortable with.
posted by apis mellifera at 10:21 AM on September 20, 2005

It bothers me that its okay for someone else to use a word that I'm an asshole if I use.

This applies to alot more words than just nigger but its one of the most easily recognized double standards.

I'm a racist if I use the word but its totally okay for a black person to use it? How is that not discrimination or racism?
posted by fenriq at 10:26 AM on September 20, 2005

There is nothing to be gained from posting in a thread such as this. Everyone is right and everyone is wrong.

On second thought, that could apply to all of Metafilter, now that I think about it...

As for me: The second version of the cartoon is only funny because the first version was published. And it's really funny. They should keep rerunning the same cartoon every day with different words.

I don't like the N-word, and years go by between the times that I might utter it.

Something tells me the creator of Boondocks is going to weigh in on this. But something else tells me that I can't guess which side he will come down on...
posted by bugmuncher at 10:28 AM on September 20, 2005

Ideally the next comic would be Kanye being really erudite.
posted by mikeh at 10:30 AM on September 20, 2005

Here's a thought. If there are white people with their head planted so high up their arse that they just can't stand it when a racist insult they once devised is then reclaimed by the target of the insult and defused as a self-referential joke in a context well out of reach from their hands, well, perhaps that reclaiming kind of hits the spot, doesn't it?

I don't get it. In the cartoon, Condi says it. She's black.

Oh crap. Come on. A little bit of effort? Condi is black, yes, but the cartoon is not Condi, the cartoon is a bunch of lines on paper drawn and published by people who are now busy informing us that, you know, they have Irish and Italian and Japanese and Jewish relatives in the family (so, the implication is, they are constitutionally incapable of a little offhand racism against black people, yay - impeccable logic!).

Now perhaps it's easier if you try and step out of your familiar American context for a second, imagine a white British comedian on tv caricaturing a British Asian rapper and another white comedian at his side also impersonating another Asian person and calling the first "oi paki!". Do you think the complaints by viewers would be so totally unwarranted and over the top? And more importantly, would you be willing to say to those complaining that they really have no right to their opinion?


Same thing here, only the method of impersonation is the cartoon, not a standup comedian's caricature.

It's not the end of the world, only a stupid cartoon that doesn't even make its own point very well, and that puts forth the utterly laughable concept that Condoleeza Rice is the living example that black people in America have nothing whatsoever to complain about (and yeah it's kind of crappy stereotypical about her as well, like her being black is more relevant than her political positions), and totally misses the point of Kanye's remark, however "populist" it might have been. But it's just so amazing, the amount of people eager to tell others to move on, nothing to see here, nothing to complain about, no right to complain at all, if you're offended it's your problem...
posted by funambulist at 10:35 AM on September 20, 2005

So people got offended. So what. Are they right to be offended? Who fucking cares - it is irrelevant:

People do not have the right to NOT be offended.

People get offended over everything and anything. That new Dish Network commercial where everybody says "sucks" caused a "fire storm", too. Janet Jackson's tit sparked a congressional hearing for jeebus sake.

Black comedians stereotype whites, koreans, mexicans every night on Comedy Central and BET. I bet somebody is offended by that somewhere. Should I be?

Hawaiian Veteran Comedian Andy Bumatai used to have a joke about this.

"Hawaiian's - we hate the Haole's, we hate the Koreans, we hat the Japanese, the filipinos, the Chinese...
but don't be offended - we hate you all EQUALLY."
posted by tkchrist at 10:37 AM on September 20, 2005

Though I disagree with it (and I disagree with the repeated misattribution of Kanye being quoted as saying Bush "hates" black people, when what he said was that Bush didn't care), the cartoon is funny and effective.
People are upset because the offense is aimed at them, not because the cartoon is offensive.
posted by klangklangston at 10:41 AM on September 20, 2005

Dude, in the cartoon she said it.

The issue is that some people are (again) upset by a stupid cartoon depicting the Secretary of State, who is African American, saying "Nigga Please."

Again, how is this "white" use? Does it matter at all who the cartoonist is? The cartoon itself is what is at issue.


I don't get it. In the cartoon, Condi says it. She's black. I don't think the author of the cartoon was ever identified.

Uh, the cartoonist said it, and also drew a picture of condi rice saying it. That's not the same thing as condi rice actually saying it. Jesus.

In fact, what makes the cartoon racist is the fact that they had Condi Rice say it. Like no matter how successful you are, if you're black you're still a hood-rat deep down.

For those of you who say that people are 'missing the point', you're idiots. Things can have multiple points and multiple messages.

The "point" is that George Bush has black friends, and therefore 'cares' about them. What's offensive about the cartoon is that black people can never 'escape' their stereotypes. No matter how smart condi rice is, she's black, and therefore a hood-rat who would say that type of thing.

Also the attitude that because black rappers say 'nigger' all the time, its somehow OK for white folks to use it, and hypocritical for black people to get offended by that is just bizarre.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, nigger.

Interestingly despite being black all my life, this is the first time anyone has ever directly called me a nigger. I am, shock of shocks, very offended (despite the fact that you probably are not a racist, or at least you don't consider yourself one). So there's one data item for you. I hope you get cancer and die. (Oh, but I'm joking, see? Funny, ha ha).

I am, however, bothered by the portrayal of Condoleeza Rice (as much as I despise her) as some kind of sassy black stereotype, when it clearly doesn't apply to her.

This is where the funny is, people. What's that term for doing the opposite of the expected reaction, sometimes for comic purposes? Oh yeah, irony!

A lot of times, humor is derived not by inverting reality, but telling what's supposedly the underlying truth. If the cartoon showed George W. saying "Nigga please" that would be unexpected. The cartoon is supposed to be funny because that is what people think Condoleeza Rice would really say or think. That supposition is what offended people.

Some people apparently think you can say anything racist and as long as it's wrapped up as a 'joke' people shouldn't get offended. (and then if people do get offended, they get offended by that. Now there's irony)
posted by delmoi at 10:46 AM on September 20, 2005

There are a lot of people who claim that "Nigga" and "Nigger" are diffrent words.

Those people are idiots.

There are a lot of people who claim that "Lessee" and "Lessor" are different words.

Those people are idiots.
posted by flarbuse at 10:47 AM on September 20, 2005

Ugh, I came home over lunch to take a nap, and now I'm feeling even crappier then before. Thanks, MeFi!
posted by delmoi at 10:49 AM on September 20, 2005

I still find it novel that it's acceptable to portray Rice as some sort of sassy black mammy, but if say, Barack Obama was portrayed in the same manner by a conservative cartoonist people would be going bananas.

Either way, the cartoon is kinda doofy.
posted by fet at 10:50 AM on September 20, 2005

You know what word I miss?

"Kike."

Why couldn't that word become a hip and popular co-opted word like "nigger" or "queer"? I mean, they have the means. They run everything, after all.
posted by fungible at 10:50 AM on September 20, 2005

Hey Hey Ho Ho This Penis Party's Got To Go
posted by sciurus at 10:52 AM on September 20, 2005

There are a lot of people who claim that "Lessee" and "Lessor" are different words.

Those people are idiots.


Yes, Nigga and Nigger are exactly like that.

Like how if someone says "I gotta go start the cah" it means something totally different then "I've got to go start the car." Or if someone says "That was a tasty sammich" it means something completely different then if they said "That was a tasty sandwich".

Shortening a word is exactly like appending a standard suffix to a verb.
posted by delmoi at 10:53 AM on September 20, 2005

I still find it novel that it's acceptable to portray Rice as some sort of sassy black mammy, but if say, Barack Obama was portrayed in the same manner by a conservative cartoonist people would be going bananas.

Yeah, bananas because they're black!

(just kidding :P)
posted by delmoi at 10:54 AM on September 20, 2005

Balisong writes "Get over it. There are much more worse things you could be called these days. Neo-con, Santorum, Liberal and Rag-head come to mind."

Man, I can't believe you said "Santorum" in public. People will surely think less of you now.
posted by clevershark at 11:12 AM on September 20, 2005

three blind mice writes "Snoop Dogg says 'nigga please' all the time and no one raises an eyelash."

The day Snoop Dogg becomes secretary of state, people will concede you that point. Now, however, its kinda irrelevant, isn't it?
posted by clevershark at 11:14 AM on September 20, 2005

If all the cartoonist could come up with was the old red herring about the 'race card' I think he should be let go for being unoriginal and dimwitted.
posted by Space Coyote at 11:17 AM on September 20, 2005

Nothing new for the Alligator, or the cartoonist, or the reactionaries-would-be on campus. Last year after UF lost some major basketball game they ran a cartoon of a star player with tears tracks that spelled "choke", and that produced about the same level of protest.

The Alligator is not affiliated with UF (hence "the independent") and really couldn't care less about what the university or students think, as long as people keep reading its fishwrap. And it's free, so people do.
posted by casarkos at 11:33 AM on September 20, 2005

What's offensive about the cartoon is that black people can never 'escape' their stereotypes.

Oh Christ. NOBODY can escape thier stereotypes. Ok. Depends on WHO issues the labels, doesn't it?

Match the names withe the stereotype:

1. Rich White Oil Industry Republican.

2. Poor White Trash.

3. Hillbilly.

4. Uncle Tom.


A. Jessica Lynch

B. Colin Powell

C. Dick Cheney

D. Bill Clinton
posted by tkchrist at 11:33 AM on September 20, 2005

Imperfect (and the second cartoon): Condi Rice is a prime example of a powerful black person in Bush's cabinet. She obviously refutes Kayne's argument.

Yeah because some of Bush's best friends are like totally black.
posted by fleacircus at 11:37 AM on September 20, 2005

To clarify some more, if people are finding it funny because they think Ms. Rice would say that, I really don't understand that. Flaws in policy aside, she seems very well-spoken. I might be laughing at my take in the comic which is the opposite of their intended humor. Actually, I can probably confidently say that it's not the intended humor by this point and that the artist is a jerk. Bad call on my part.

I'm also not completely sold on the idea I mentioned earlier of two types of "black." It's a distinction writers will make too -- oftentimes people who aren't originally from the US (but are definitely ethnically African) aren't seen as "black" in the same context that African Americans are. If anything, it's an ugly credibility/economic status/social status complex where different types of "blackness" give you credibility or deny you opportunities. Unfortunately, unless you're a rapper or comedian, most of the credibility is useless and you gain a level of racist scrutiny when trying to get a good education or job. In a way, I feel sorry for Condoleeza Rice on this matter -- she most likely has run into some racial barriers and discrimination during her life but she also gets Uncle Tom-style insults.

delmoi, do you think there's a contextual difference between "nigger" and "nigga?" I admitted they're often homophones earlier, but usage tends to go all over the map. Definitely never completely separated, but there's a lot of variance there.
posted by mikeh at 11:43 AM on September 20, 2005

funambulist: "...the cartoon is a bunch of lines on paper drawn and published by people who are now busy informing us that, you know, they have Irish and Italian and Japanese and Jewish relatives in the family (so, the implication is, they are constitutionally incapable of a little offhand racism against black people, yay - impeccable logic!)."

Well, since I was the only person who mentioned being Irish/Italian I'll respond. WTF? Did you even read what I wrote? Let me quote myself:

"I say all that because I'll never have a frickin clue what it is like to put up (with) white people using that asinine word. I can't stand the connotation of it when a "non-white" uses, let alone a "white." It's all about the connotation people. I don't care who uses it."

It says nothing about me or any other non-black being "constitutionally incapable of a little offhand racism." Of course, Irish/Italian Americans can be prejudiced, but they can't understand how it truly feels to have someone call you that particular word. (No need to point out those are black Italian/Irish Americans. You know what I mean.)

This isn't about the right to say anything. This is about having the respect not to demean others.
posted by ?! at 11:43 AM on September 20, 2005

This isn't about the right to say anything. This is about having the respect not to demean others.

Ok. What do you want to do then? Pass a law forcing "respect" for others? Civility "speach" laws? Like Singapore? What?

I don't think you or anybody here is in accord with laws like that... at least I hope not.

Then, I would disagree in that it IS about the right to say anything.

In that no such right practicaly exists on the ground for anybody we tend disagree with - and conversly only exists to those with which we agree.

The only logical and acceptable course therefor IS to let people SAY just about anything they wan't. And debate the mess afterwards.
posted by tkchrist at 11:53 AM on September 20, 2005

?! - no no no I was so not talking about you! :) it's in the linked article, here:

The editor added that he has a diverse background himself, with Irish, Italian, Japanese and Jewish branches of his family, and said that he would apply the same standard to epithets about any of those groups. The protesters and administrators, he said, “are all grandstanding.”

See? The editors, those who published the cartoon, they're the ones who are soo eager to add they have all that diversity in the family as if it's some excuse for that lame cartoon... I'm so sorry you misunderstood, ?!, and sorry for not making clearer that was what I was referring to, I had read your comment and it never occurred to me you could think I was referring to your mention of your family, or to all people with Irish or Italian or Japanese ancestry... ah bollocks. :) Of course I agree with you wrote in your comment, we're basically making the same point about that.

(And thanks for that lyrics transcription)
posted by funambulist at 11:59 AM on September 20, 2005

shmegegge, it's a political cartoon. Have you ever seen the ones showing Dubya as a chimpanzee? or other stereotypes? it's a caricature...the moment when people start taking political cartoons as reality or some absolute reflection of reality is the moment we've truly lost it.

Showing Dubya as a chimp isn't a stereotype. If they showed Dubya as a mullet wearing trailer-park resident that would be a stereotype.

So you don't think political cartoons are a good way of gauging the beliefs of the cartoonist and/or the editorial board that publishes them? That seems strange to me.

Kayne West said something incorrect and a little stupid. (I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt here and say it was because he was upset. The circumstances upset everyone and we all did stupid things, just not on live national TV.) Condi Rice is a prime example of a powerful black person in Bush's cabinet. She obviously refutes Kayne's argument.

Well, If George bush doesn’t care about people in general, it stands to reason that he doesn’t care about black people. It's also entirely possible to work closely with someone and still not care about them, so I don't see how the 'existence' of Condi rice refutes Kanye's criticism at all.

In any event, the cartoon isn't offensive because of what it says about Kanye. Kanye is an idiot. The cartoon is offensive to black people because of what it says about Rice. If you can't see why, there's not much point in discussing this.

It bothers me that its okay for someone else to use a word that I'm an asshole if I use.

This applies to alot more words than just nigger but its one of the most easily recognized double standards.

I'm a racist if I use the word but its totally okay for a black person to use it? How is that not discrimination or racism?

But why do you want to be able to say it in the first place? That's what I don't understand.

Most black people don't use the word. If you hang around with ghetto thugs who say 'nigga' constantly all the time then you probably could get away with using it. If you don't hang out with ghetto thugs then as I said, why would you want to use the word?
posted by delmoi at 12:12 PM on September 20, 2005

Ok. What do you want to do then? Pass a law forcing "respect" for others? Civility "speach" laws? Like Singapore? What? ...The only logical and acceptable course therefor IS to let people SAY just about anything they wan't. And debate the mess afterwards.

Um, that's what we're doing.
posted by delmoi at 12:14 PM on September 20, 2005

Basicaly, what it comes down to is if you think the person using the word is someone who is anti-black. If a black person says it, it's much less likely to seem anti-black (but it can, obviously). If a white person says it, then it seems more likely that the person anti-black (but not always).

And there are also lots of black people who don't like to hear the word at all, even in rap music, etc.
posted by delmoi at 12:18 PM on September 20, 2005

fleacircus: Yeah because some of Bush's best friends are like totally black.

Hey, way to contribute! You really added something to the discussion there!

In all seriousness, I was explaining it in the context of the cartoon. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Bush probably doesn't have "lots" of powerful black friends because there simply aren't "lots" of powerful black people (in contrast to powerful white people, say. Unfortunately, we simply haven't come that far yet).

But seriously, she's an obvious exception, and therefore the foil for the joke. Bush saying "Nigga, please!" would screw up the joke, because it would imply that Bush is racist -- the opposite of the point intended. If she said (virtually) anything else, the joke simply wouldn't be funny any more, nor point out Kayne's misstep.

It's not a good joke, but from a critical level, it works. And I refuse to feel guilty for finding humour in this, especially considering the vast library of offensive humour I have laughed at in the past. Humour helps us get past tragedy, and if that doesn't apply to you, then you've got my pity.
posted by Imperfect at 12:18 PM on September 20, 2005

As a total Whitey - and a Canadian one at that - I never use the phrase "nigga, please," because I would sound ridiculous saying it.

That said, I've always thought that a great idea for a book would be the Nigga Please Almanac. You know, like the Information Please Almanac, only it'd contain stuff in the public domain that's widely believed but utter bullshit. For example, that there's a liberal bias in the mainstream American media, or that having a close friend or colleague from a particular ethnic group or social class innoculates you against charges of prejudice against said ethnic group or social class.

Or that you could possibly seperate the deeply intwined issues of race and poverty at work in the Bush Administration's callous and condescending response to Katrina.
posted by gompa at 12:19 PM on September 20, 2005

gompa, I think you've got a bestseller there.
posted by NationalKato at 12:39 PM on September 20, 2005

It's not a good joke, but from a critical level, it works. And I refuse to feel guilty for finding humour in this, especially considering the vast library of offensive humour I have laughed at in the past. Humour helps us get past tragedy, and if that doesn't apply to you, then you've got my pity.

Uh well, if you can't see why the joke could offend some people, you're an idiot. And I would hardly call Kanye's comments a tragedy.
posted by delmoi at 12:44 PM on September 20, 2005

Black People Love Us.
posted by dickumbrage at 12:44 PM on September 20, 2005

Forget "nigga," I'm still waiting for someone to explain "tha."
posted by kindall at 12:50 PM on September 20, 2005

What do you want to do then?

I'd settle for publicly calling the cartoonist and editors insensitive dingbats with bad taste who were too busy lapping at Dear Leader's bunghole to notice their faux pas, which I just did, so I guess I'm satisfied.

You keep worrying about the special comments that only you can see where people were suggesting that they editor or cartoonist be put in jail or otherwise punished if you want to, though.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:56 PM on September 20, 2005

the editor. crap. I note this only because I also have a paper back from a journal with a whole damn bunch of red ink whispering "You suck" to me.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:57 PM on September 20, 2005

The cartoon is fine. The issue, if any, should be about stereotyping, not the use of that word, which (especially with the "a" spelling) has been diluted to harmlessness, which was the point of reappropriating it in the first place. I think the role reversal of a stereotypically well-spoken Condi Rice using gangsta language is clearly an acceptable comic device and not an attempt to stereotype her. Any outrage over this is horribly misplaced.
posted by abcde at 1:00 PM on September 20, 2005

I hope you get cancer and die. (Oh, but I'm joking, see? Funny, ha ha).

Yeah, kinda funny, but you could have done better if you weren't so mad. Honest apologies if I pissed you off. That honestly *wasn't* my intent. I wasn't even responding to you (even though maybe have been your quote). Sorry again. It was a cheap shot.

(despite the fact that you probably are not a racist, or at least you don't consider yourself one)

For the record, I think that the concept of "race" is basically a social construct with little scientific data to support it.

The cartoon is supposed to be funny because that is what people think Condoleeza Rice would really say or think.

Here's the major disconnect, IMO. This was a political cartoon. My 2c is that anyone who reads political cartoon will know that's not how Condoleeza Rice speaks. In fact, she's very much a caricature of the opposite style of speech, very formal, very grammatical. Which is where the funny is supposed to be, I think. Maybe not. I'm not sure I got the joke. (I think it's that Condi debunks Kanye's claim in his own language, or something like that, though I've never thought of him as specifically foul-mouthed.)

I say all that because I'll never have a frickin clue what it is like to put up (with) white people using that asinine word. I can't stand the connotation of it when a "non-white" uses, let alone a "white." It's all about the connotation people. I don't care who uses it.

OK, for those of us who haven't experienced the common perjorative use directly (or at least not since we were wee), what *is* the connotation? I'm not denying it's extremely offensive (and I'm not being intentionally dense), but is it anymore offensive than "boy"? What if Condi had said, "You just keep rapping, boy"? That seems obviously offensive to me, whereas the current version is a little more complicated.
posted by mrgrimm at 1:08 PM on September 20, 2005

I don't think the cartoon is very clever. I only meant to point out the logic by which it is supposed to work. That doesn't mean it won't be offensive to some people, perhaps many people. And I don't think that Condi's existence proves much about Bush's racial attitudes. The point I'd like to make is that understanding the debacle in New Orleans in terms of socio-economic class makes more sense of the situation than trying to view it exclusively in terms of race. The people who suffered most in this tragedy were the poor, of all colors.
posted by wheat at 1:20 PM on September 20, 2005

nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger, nigger

Now...can we move on to something that matters?
posted by j.p. Hung at 1:53 PM on September 20, 2005

Delmoi: You misunderstand me. Grossly. Purposefully?

The reason the cartoon is offensive is because a white boy wrote "nigga". And because people love to misinterpret things in such a way that they can get angry over it. Like, uh, you just did.

Also, Kayne's comments were about a tragedy, not a tragedy in and of themselves. I thought that was apparent. Maybe next time I'll just spell it out.
posted by Imperfect at 1:53 PM on September 20, 2005

Yeah, kinda funny, but you could have done better if you weren't so mad. Honest apologies if I pissed you off. That honestly *wasn't* my intent. I wasn't even responding to you (even though maybe have been your quote). Sorry again. It was a cheap shot.

That was my quote, yes. Anyway, apology accepted.

But the point is the cartoon can be offensive (by itself, it's not that bad, but what pissed me off were people claming that it couldn't be offensive, or that if people thought it was offensive they missed the 'point'). What's offensive isn't what they're saying about Kanye, it's what they're saying about Condi. A racial steriotype mixed in with the word 'nigga' isn't going to go over very well.

If they'd had her say something like "Brutha, Please" I'm sure it would have offended people too, but maybe not as much.
posted by delmoi at 2:08 PM on September 20, 2005

The reason the cartoon is offensive is because a white boy wrote "nigga". And because people love to misinterpret things in such a way that they can get angry over it. Like, uh, you just did.

If you're not offended by it, how could you possibly know why it's offensive? I've just explained why I find it offensive. Are you calling me a liar or what?
posted by delmoi at 2:11 PM on September 20, 2005

Don't say MeFi does not change opinions...

Before today, I would have sided with those condemning this cartoon. However, after reading the arguments here that support that position, I have come to realize how specious this debate is at its core.

I now see that 'playing the race card' is an actual behavior, not just some righty rhetoric, and that it damages the cause against racism much more than it helps.
posted by mischief at 2:41 PM on September 20, 2005

Before today, I would have sided with those condemning this cartoon. However, after reading the arguments here that support that position, I have come to realize how specious this debate is at its core.

I now see that 'playing the race card' is an actual behavior, not just some righty rhetoric, and that it damages the cause against racism much more than it helps.

WTF is that supposed to mean? Are you talking about me or someone else?

Well, whatever.
posted by delmoi at 3:07 PM on September 20, 2005

Just to clarify, my problem wasn't with the cartoon, but with the argument that there was something wrong with the people who got offended by it.
posted by delmoi at 3:25 PM on September 20, 2005

Meanwhile Dave Chappele moves in and corners the market!
He can do poop and crackhead jokes, too. Everybody eats it up!
posted by Balisong at 3:40 PM on September 20, 2005

imagine a white British comedian on tv caricaturing a British Asian rapper and another white comedian at his side also impersonating another Asian person and calling the first "oi paki!"

No, sorry. Ever heard of Ali G?
posted by hugsnkisses at 3:44 PM on September 20, 2005

I wonder if it would be funny if Bush said to Condi "Bitch, please!" in an editorial cartoon. And then she could say "Shut up, Cracka!" And then they could make out...
posted by bugmuncher at 4:01 PM on September 20, 2005

I'd settle for publicly calling the cartoonist and editors insensitive dingbats with bad taste who were too busy lapping at Dear Leader's bunghole to notice their faux pas, which I just did, so I guess I'm satisfied.

You should be satisfied. But you're not, are you? And I'd say they committed no "faux pas" at all. They meant to say what they said.

Should we apologies every time somebody is offended by what we say? If we are offended should we stomp our feet and demand recompense? SHould they ban the paper? It seems the people offended wanted SOMETHING.

Or perhaps - to save valuable time and energy- we grow thicker skins and concentrate on real problems.

And the only thing ultimately objectionable is that people disagree with the politics behind this dumb cartoon - not that it was a intended racial insult.

And that is the crux of this post. I they used "homey" or "playa" would people get as excited about racism? Maybe some people would. But not many.

You keep worrying about the special comments that only you can see where people were suggesting that they editor or cartoonist be put in jail or otherwise punished if you want to, though.

I never said that. I asked "what are you gonna do? Pass a law? what?" And seriously. What? So what people are offended? So what. What is the fucking point of worrying about people be in constant offense. Jeebus.

All this bullshit is for naught because it comes down to a knee-jerk "We don't like the politics of this group so let's call them racist for simply talking about race in the same tone and vernacular millions of other people we agree with do."

I can't get excited about it. And most of you shouldn't.

Just to clarify, my problem wasn't with the cartoon, but with the argument that there was something wrong with the people who got offended by it.

What kind of wishy washy bullshit is this? If the cartoon was fine then there is no reason for people to BE offended.

I think your the racist. You have made the most assumptions about peoples motives based solely on skin color.
posted by tkchrist at 4:34 PM on September 20, 2005

You should be satisfied. But you're not, are you?

So deeply that it's illegal in several states.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:54 PM on September 20, 2005

Whew! took some time out.

So, I'm seeing a couple things coming out in this thread, psychologically speaking. IANAP(sychologist), but I am aware of some psychological constructs that seem appropriate, here. One of them is Guilt of Privilege (within which a particular subset, racial guilt, seems to be what we're dealing with.), wherein a person of privilege (such as being born white in a social landscape where minorities get a bum wrap at times) feels guilty simply for being a member of a class or race that has been known to oppress. Specifically, it can be seen as a reaction to the practice in society of calling attention to our societal wrongdoings, so that people of privilege feel exceptionally guilty simply for being in the same race/class as those who abuse that privilege to oppress minority races/classes.

So there are people in this thread who see the outrage of who they perceive to be privileged white internet users as false. They believe that this guilt of privilege isn't always merited, and that people who are afraid of being lumped in with the oppressors are jumping too quickly to the side of the oppressed merely as a token response to scandal.

This is a completely valid viewpoint. There are, no doubt, people who are doing just that in florida, and in this thread as well. In all likelihood they don't even realize they're doing it.

However, what these people who OPPOSE the perceived guilt of privilege are probably not realizing is that Guilt of Privilege has a further link in its chain: knee-jerk rejection of it. People, for understandable reasons, resent being made to feel guilty for the actions of others. They feel constricted unfairly because they were born into a race that can be bigoted, even though that bigotry doesn't apply to them.

This is also a completely valid viewpoint, but that doesn't mean that, contextually, it can't be misapplied. Put more simply, you can feel resentment for being made to feel like a racist when you aren't one, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you've been wronged.

For instance: while it's unfortunate that some people feel differently, I think it's important to say, right now, that there's nothing wrong with laughing at this cartoon. You don't have to be racist to laugh at it. In all honesty, REAL racists, intentional-derogatory-use-of-the-word racists would probably think it was a stupid cartoon. However, at their most honest, people who object to this cartoon aren't objecting to you. Just the cartoon. They have a right to that.

What sucks is that this conversation has become circular. People who dislike the cartoon are saying it's racist, and some people are saying "You have no right to feel that way! get over it!" So the response is, "what the fuck is wrong with you? of course I can feel that way, it's fucking racist, idiot!" and it actually degenerates further, believe it or not. And the only response we can come up with after a while is to repeat the "it's a joke!" line followed "jokes can be offensive, too!" line ad infinitum.

What it ultimately comes down to is this. There needs to be a separation between "it's okay to be offended" and "it's not okay NOT to be offended." because they're not the same, and the former is true where the latter is false. I recommend that those who are offended try to make a point of not saying that it's wrong to like the cartoon. Stick to saying that you think it's wrong to MAKE the cartoon, or publish it or whatever. But if you like it, don't worry, you're not a horrible person.

Conversely, if you're defending it, consider: Do you really think that no one has a right to get offended at this? Or rather, do you just think that you have a right not to be? Because the two can really be confused quite easily.

I feel like, if we can all just stop telling one another what they can and can't do, this would go a lot better. It's ok to ciriticize an artist. It's not really all that great an idea to criticize his audience for their reaction. That's snobbery at its best and that's this thread somewhere better than its worst, but worse than its best.
posted by shmegegge at 5:05 PM on September 20, 2005

aside from all that, I have a postulate for the people who honestly believe that there's no reason to be offended at this cartoon. Mostly I'm asking this to better understand where you're coming from.

What if, instead of the way it originally appeared, it had instead had Condoleeza dressed in torn coveralls, eating a giant slice of watermelon saying something along the lines of "Well, massa, I shorely do disagree-mify meself wit dat dere postitulation."

Where exactly does the cartoon's depiction of condi differ from the one I just posted in such a way as to be ok? How is the one stereotype more ok than the other?

And before I get accused of a slippery slope argument, I'm not saying anyone should be jailed or whatever. I'm not advocating censorship, and I'm not saying "ALL USE OF THAT PHRASE IS WRONG." I'm just saying that while, contextually, the two depictions differ, I don't think they do so enough to excuse the one over the other.
posted by shmegegge at 5:09 PM on September 20, 2005

What if, instead of the way it originally appeared, it had instead had Condoleeza dressed in torn coveralls, eating a giant slice of watermelon saying something along the lines of "Well, massa, I shorely do disagree-mify meself wit dat dere postitulation."

Where exactly does the cartoon's depiction of condi differ from the one I just posted in such a way as to be ok? How is the one stereotype more ok than the other

ENOUGH. Jeebus. Take a longer break dude.
posted by tkchrist at 5:15 PM on September 20, 2005

Where exactly does the cartoon's depiction of condi differ from the one I just posted in such a way as to be ok? How is the one stereotype more ok than the other?

Ask the American public. Amazon lists "Nigga Please" by ODB (I'm still waiting for that comma ...). The Jay-Z song was pretty popular. I doubt they'd list a "Well, massa, I likez watermelon" song." Well, maybe they would. There's still that 1st Amendment.

Also, "Nigga, please" is actually a phrase that I've heard people use (probably b/c of the Jay-Z song). "Well, massa, I shorely do ..." is not.

y'all don't smoke the sour diesel like us

Nope. But I can dream. (Good lord, how many lame-o lyrics sites do we really need?)
posted by mrgrimm at 5:23 PM on September 20, 2005

Well, I will say this. There is a lot of racism towards whites (and towards themselves) in parts of "the black community". It rarely gets talked about or complained about, and that's a big problem as far as I can see. That's something people need to confront. The truth is, I really don't like the N-word being used in rap and hip-hop the way it is, but it doesn't really seem like there's much I can do about that.

There is, now that I think about it, a racist underpinning to black people who demand that white people don't use the N-word the way they do. If they don't want white people saying it, they shouldn't say it around them. Somebody posted a link to a story about some black guys that got upset that the (white) girlfriend of one of them used the word the way they did. That's stupid.

But the fact that the N-word is used in rap so often doesn't mean that people who are not black can just say it all the time and not expect people to get offended. That's the key here. It seems like people are demanding the right to make offensive jokes without anyone getting offended. And then they get offended if someone else gets offended.

Just to clarify, my problem wasn't with the cartoon, but with the argument that there was something wrong with the people who got offended by it.

What kind of wishy washy bullshit is this? If the cartoon was fine then there is no reason for people to BE offended.

Maybe I was a little un-clear. The cartoon is in poor taste, and it's offensive. On it's own it wouldn't have personally bothered me enough to posts the comments that I did, but what did bother me was this sort of idea that it was wrong to be offended by this at all. That idea is what bothers me.

I think your the racist. You have made the most assumptions about peoples motives based solely on skin color.

Well, if you believe that about me then I have obviously not been very effective at communicating my point. I don't think the person making the cartoon had racist motives but I think the cartoon they produced was offensive and they (or anyone else) should really complain about people being offended.

More specifically, I did not at any point in this thread make any claims about anyone's motives, so I don't see how you can say anything about what I think of them, or what those imagined thoughts might say about me.
posted by delmoi at 5:30 PM on September 20, 2005

Well, if you believe that about me then I have obviously not been very effective at communicating my point. I don't think the person making the cartoon had racist motives but I think the cartoon they produced was offensive and they (or anyone else) should really complain about people being offended.

er, I mean *shouldn't* complain. More specifically (again) what I mean is that they don't have (IMO) a valid grounding to complain about other people complaining about them.
posted by delmoi at 5:35 PM on September 20, 2005

I'm gladdened by delmoi's second-to-last comment (specifically, the first two paragraphs); we have something in common here.

Let me ask this: Was Derrida wrong? Is the Author dead and absent or not? Because a lot of people seem to believe that the author of this cartoon is alive and present, and want to throw tomatoes at him.

Does the meaning (and offensiveness) of the text depend on whether the author is black or white? Who decides the author's identity, the author or the audience? And how is hanging the interpretation of a text on its author's "race" (however it's assigned) not a racist act?

If someone takes this cartoon as offensive because the author is of race A (according to them?), and wouldn't if he were of race B, that someone is being racist. Deriving the meanings of our words — regardless of intent — from our respective, alleged races limits the freedom of some of us to say and mean whatever we wish, based on our assigned race. Limiting freedom — no, more than that - defining the permissible limits of another person's mind — based on race is racism. It's also doomed to failure in the long term.

The funny thing is, that this double standard regarding signifier, signified, and race is a relic of racial segregation, and could only be sustained in that environment. Once the cultural walls between the streets and the mainstream media culture came down, the tensions in meaning quickly became apparent. Either the word "nigga" is taboo, or it isn't. People who don't want it being used everywhere, by everyone, should argue against its use anywhere, by anyone.

Let me just say this: the phrase "Nigga, please" is, or originally was, IMO, used as a way of shutting up a black person by, in part, reminding him or her of her blackness. This is racist (not necessarily "racially insensitive", but racist), whether the person saying it is black or not. It's a way of cutting someone down to size by saying, "Don't think your shit don't stink (you are still black, after all)." From a black person's lips, there may be an implied "just like the rest of us" appended to the end. I don't think that really mitigates the harm done. Oppression does not come merely from without, but also from within.
posted by skoosh at 7:00 PM on September 20, 2005

funambulist: I apologize. I missed the quote in the link. Mea cupla.
tkchrist: Just looking for some people to develop some respect. No laws needed.
abcde: "the use of that word, which (especially with the "a" spelling) has been diluted to harmlessness" Obviously, no, it hasn't.

skoosh: Good point that oppression also comes from within. I think delmoi made that point also in regard to people within the race using the word. I've always looked at the word as a shibboleth. I'm not part of that group and my use of the word would ring false.

I don't believe the cultural walls have fallen, skoosh. There are a few holes and some people might dance to the music from the other side, but for the most part we're living in the same occupation zones we inhabited in 1963.
posted by ?! at 7:39 PM on September 20, 2005

Being offended by something is fine. Telling other people to change their behaviour because you are offended isn't. That's pretty simple, isn't it?
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 8:10 PM on September 20, 2005

Kayne West said something incorrect and a little stupid.

and this was 'incorrect and a little stupid' how? if George Bush doesn't care about people, it is neither incorrect or stupid to say so.
posted by TrinityB5 at 8:18 PM on September 20, 2005

Am I the only person who kinda wishes she HAD said this?
I am not entirely certain what that says about me.
The weird part is, I think Kanye West was basically right.
posted by nightchrome at 8:54 PM on September 20, 2005

and this was 'incorrect and a little stupid' how? if George Bush doesn't care about people, it is neither incorrect or stupid to say so.

To be fair, the statement does imply that bush cares less about black people then white people, which is probably wrong.


Does the meaning (and offensiveness) of the text depend on whether the author is black or white? Who decides the author's identity, the author or the audience? And how is hanging the interpretation of a text on its author's "race" (however it's assigned) not a racist act?

If someone takes this cartoon as offensive because the author is of race A (according to them?), and wouldn't if he were of race B, that someone is being racist. Deriving the meanings of our words — regardless of intent — from our respective, alleged races limits the freedom of some of us to say and mean whatever we wish, based on our assigned race. Limiting freedom — no, more than that - defining the permissible limits of another person's mind — based on race is racism. It's also doomed to failure in the long term.

That’s a good point. It certainly is racist to say something as simple as "all white people shouldn't say the N-word, but black people can". Although, I did say that up thread I was definitely over-simplifying. I didn't realize that was going to offend people, which I guess show you how careful you need to be. But look, I'm not racist. I couldn't be, most of my friends are white! :P

But it's all about context. Think of the phrase

"You're a little whore."

Imagine a man saying that to his wife while they're in foreplay. It's harmless. Now imagine that same man, in his early forties a little chubby. Balding. Imagine him saying that to a thirteen year old girl he just met on the street. The words are exactly the same, but the meaning is totally different because of the relationship between the two people. Yet, If that girls friend said the same thing, it wouldn't be a big deal The context is different so the meaning is different. Is it fair that a 12-year old girl can say something that a 40 year old man cannot?

It's unfortunate, but the fact is that in our society there is a social construct called race. If that construct didn't exist, that cartoon would never have been made. If people didn't think of race, they never would have thought to put those words in Condi's mouth.

And, lets be clear about something. That cartoon is offensive on it's face. It would probably still have been offensive if it had been drawn by a black person (I think).


Let me just say this: the phrase "Nigga, please" is, or originally was, IMO, used as a way of shutting up a black person by, in part, reminding him or her of her blackness. This is racist (not necessarily "racially insensitive", but racist), whether the person saying it is black or not. It's a way of cutting someone down to size by saying, "Don't think your shit don't stink (you are still black, after all)." From a black person's lips, there may be an implied "just like the rest of us" appended to the end. I don't think that really mitigates the harm done. Oppression does not come merely from without, but also from within.

Interesting.

Being offended by something is fine. Telling other people to change their behaviour because you are offended isn't. That's pretty simple, isn't it?

If somebody farts at the dinner table, it's not OK to tell them to stop? I don't think there's anything wrong with telling someone to stop doing a particular thing.
posted by delmoi at 9:11 PM on September 20, 2005

Being offended by something is fine. Telling other people to change their behaviour because you are offended isn't.

Is too! It's just speech. It's fine for me to tell you never to post anything like that ever again, and it's fine for you to tell me to go fuck myself when I tell you that, etc.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:58 PM on September 20, 2005

Good point, ROU_Xenophone. Amend that to either "Forcing other people to change their behaviour because you are offended isn't." or "Telling other people to change their behaviour because you are offended is just dumb."
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:08 PM on September 20, 2005

mrgrimm:

you make an excellent point. it seems to me, though, that you're saying it's alright to depict a stereotype in this way so long as it's a stereotype people see every day.

So, does this mean that as long as someone fits the stereotype, it can't be offensive?

Or is it that, so long as the offended race has examples of people within it that conform to the stereotype, then no one in that race can be offended?

I'm not trying to be a dick or anything, but it seems my interpretation of what you're saying is getting in the way of me understanding you, since I can't imagine that you believe the above two possibilities.
posted by shmegegge at 10:13 PM on September 20, 2005

If somebody farts at the dinner table, it's not OK to tell them to stop?

Amazingly poor example. Have you ever actually told someone at the dinner table "Stop farting! It offends me!" I find that a little hard to believe, assuming you have a modicum of social skills.

Maybe, thinking more about ROU_Xenophobe's point, it's necessary, as my long-ago philosophy professors always advised, to start by defining our terms. What do I mean by fine? And what did I mean by behaviour? Would it be better, or clearer, to say 'speech', and how is that different?

...oh fuck it. I can't be bothered. Carry on, internet friends!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 10:14 PM on September 20, 2005

Amazingly poor example. Have you ever actually told someone at the dinner table "Stop farting! It offends me!" I find that a little hard to believe, assuming you have a modicum of social skills.

I was thinking, like, inside a family, or your boyfriend/girlfriend.
posted by delmoi at 11:08 PM on September 20, 2005

What delmoi said:

Basicaly, what it comes down to is if you think the person using the word is someone who is anti-black. If a black person says it, it's much less likely to seem anti-black (but it can, obviously). If a white person says it, then it seems more likely that the person anti-black (but not always).

Political cartoons are supposed to be funny, sure, but informative too. And this one wasn't very in either respect, unfortunately. To say that Condoleezza Rice has the right to tell black people what they ought or ought not to be thinking doesn't seem like a very plausible scenario to me. Especially if she's going to be using verbiage like the one she just did. And to then claim that there wasn't anything racist about it at all would only be adding insult to injury in my opinion.

[Not talking about any of the people who've posted in this thread, but specifically regarding the cartoonist/editor of that strip.]
posted by MoralAnimal at 11:10 PM on September 20, 2005

It's not that George Bush doesn't care about black people.
He doesn't care about poor people.
posted by deusdiabolus at 2:46 AM on September 21, 2005

hugnskisses: ah yes, but it's not like it didn't raise any questions, besides, it's not that clear Asian or black or Kazaki people is what he was caricaturing, as his character was less the point than the reactions he got, especially when he was "interviewing" celebrities and politicians or religious people. He also impersonated an Austrian gay hairdresser and went to a rodeo in Texas extracting interesting candid comments about gays and Jews from some of the locals. Who was the joke on?

If only the cartoon had only been half as funny as that. When you choose to use offensive material in comedy, it's usually a good idea to have some weight to support it, otherwise all that's left is the offensive intent and it's just lame.
posted by funambulist at 3:29 AM on September 21, 2005

shmegegge, that's excellently put.


I asked "what are you gonna do? Pass a law? what?" And seriously. What? So what people are offended? So what. What is the fucking point of worrying about people be in constant offense. Jeebus.

tkchrist: what are you gonna do about your being offended that people are offended? pass a law? so what if you don't like that people don't like the cartoon?

See how it works now? either everyone is going on about nothing, or everyone is entitled to being ticked off by whatever they are ticked off especially if they say their reasons and are interested in some degree of conversation instead of going "you're racist!" "am not, you are the racist one!" "no you are!" and on and on.

For me the poorest thing about the cartoon again is the notion that "Rice is best mates with Bush" is some kind of response to what Kanye West said. Now he's just a popstar, what he said wasn't particularly original and it wasn't supposed to be an essay about the social policies of the Bush administration. But it struck a nerve and condensed in one phrase what has been said in much more elaborate political discussion on the event. Of course the race and class divide that stuck out with the disaster in NO is not the making of one president or one administration, and that's also why the "but Rice is friends with Bush" is so laughable. If they wanted to have a dig at Kanye West for his improvised speech on tv they could at least have targeted that irony in his being a millionaire popstar who probably has an estate bigger than the superdome. Instead they also completely missed the irony in comparing the Secretary of State, a powerful politician, who also had a big career in the oil industry, to people stuck in NO without any means of evacuation, losing their homes, waiting for days for aid to come... as if her being a powerful politician is enough to outweigh all that, just because she's black, and hey, those poor people in NO are black too, so you see, there is no race or class divide, yippee. Compared to that, the use of the n-word is the least insulting of all the implications made by the cartoon.
posted by funambulist at 4:02 AM on September 21, 2005

It's not that George Bush doesn't care about black people.
He doesn't care about poor people.
posted by deusdiabolus at 5:46 AM EST

Exactly. Needs repeated. "I call you my base."
posted by nofundy at 7:32 AM on September 21, 2005

delmoi: But it's all about context. Think of the phrase

"You're a little whore."

Imagine a man saying that to his wife while they're in foreplay. It's harmless. Now imagine that same man, in his early forties a little chubby. Balding. Imagine him saying that to a thirteen year old girl he just met on the street. The words are exactly the same, but the meaning is totally different because of the relationship between the two people. Yet, If that girls friend said the same thing, it wouldn't be a big deal The context is different so the meaning is different. Is it fair that a 12-year old girl can say something that a 40 year old man cannot?

This gives me pause. But it makes me wonder what the middle-aged man's intended meaning really is when saying that to the teenaged girl. Is it the same as that of the girl's friend? Is it more akin to his intended meaning with his wife? Or is it the same as a man who says this to insult any female stranger? Because each of those is objectionable for different reasons. The third is objectionable because it's being used as a misogynist slur. The second, because it's assuming an inappropriate sexual intimacy. The first, because it assumes an intimate friendship between social equals. The stipulation that this man is a stranger to the girl tends to make all these uses inappropriate, by itself. Also, the presumption is that the age difference is an insuperable impediment to these two people being social equals, and that therefore they should not be sexually intimate. It's something to be said only among close friends, which (many contend) these two could (or should) never be.

(Also, 12-year-old girls aren't singing "you're a little whore" on records that 40-year-old men are buying by the truckload.)

What distinguishes race from age here is that people of different races are not currently openly barred from being intimate friends or lovers, in the way that people of different age groups often are. However, they were once, and there is a certain surviving sentiment that resists the change. There is certainly the question of context, as is true for many, shall we say, words of a sensitive nature. And no one should be oblivious to that. But as you said, using a word among your friends (even affectionately referring to them by that word), while demanding that some of your friends never use the word, is stupid. I agree wholeheartedly with the conclusions of the Steven Ivory article you referred to (thanks, three blind mice!). There's just too much cognitive dissonance there.
posted by skoosh at 9:24 AM on September 21, 2005