Comments on: Standing in the garden with a hair dryer pointed at one's body might make more sense

Standing in the garden with a hair dryer pointed at one's body might make more sense

johnny novak — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:37:05 -0800

By: deusdiabolus

deusdiabolus — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:40:04 -0800

Uh, yes! Wait, no! No...uh...poot. I think that people should realize they can't use a patio year round. Sooner or later you have to learn to appreciate the rest of the house. That kitchen's nice. And hey, what about that finished basement?

By: shmegegge

shmegegge — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:04:58 -0800

I had never heard of a patio heater before. christ. that's the kind of thing I'd actually LIKE for government to ban.

By: antifuse

antifuse — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:07:27 -0800

What the hell? Why do people need these things? England, in the winter, SUCKS. Why would you want to go outside? I know that bars and such things get them to keep smokers warm outside (at least here in Dublin, since smoking is banned in the bars) but why oh why would you intentionally go outside in the winter? Is this for those people who aren't allowed to smoke in their own home? I don't get it.

By: adzm

adzm — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:09:33 -0800

These people do not know the joy of eating hot stew around a fire on a cold day. Wearing, you know, coats.

By: dabitch

dabitch — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:17:48 -0800

good grief, I've always hated those things and now finally I have a logical reason to. My "it's just wrong" argument didn't convince anyone else.

By: uncanny hengeman

uncanny hengeman — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:23:15 -0800

There's a Legoland development down the road (well, they're everywhere actually, but I want to talk about this one) from where I live. The Legoland units are almost finished and are about to go on sale. You know the type... six Legoland units where there used to be one house. Sitting out on each of the upstairs patios is a FACKING PATIO HEATER! Obviously chucked in as a "sweetener" when you buy a unit. Grrr.

By: DrDoberman

DrDoberman — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:28:11 -0800

Strange to see this in The Guardian, it reads more like a 'monster-nazi-paedo-terror-immigration-scare' story from the Daily Mail. To be honest, I would rather the government concentrated on real issues of pollution. Is the impact of a few patio heaters, used for a couple of months a year really worth worrying about too much, when the government could be, for example, helping EcoDiesel onto every forecourt in the land! Maybe promoting LPG conversions for cars with grants. Or dare I say, investing in a viable public transport system - like Holland has. Of course, it is far easier (and cheaper) to print a few "shut your window" leaflets. The population will start to take this seriously, when the government do. [I don't own a patio heater - but I do own some cars]

By: Goofyy

Goofyy — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:35:56 -0800

But DrDoberman, there is little cost in outlawing such a device. Doing so doesn't prevent them from doing any of these other things you mention. I saw these first in southern California, at beach restaurants, in 1996 (Huntington Beach, to be exact). Waste of energy.

By: DrDoberman

DrDoberman — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:49:43 -0800

Outlawing as opposed to educating you mean? Here in the UK we already have a real problem with the Nanny State as it is Goofyy. Outlawing anything would consume parliamentary time that could be being used to tackle real pollution issues, that would make a real and marked difference.

By: SteveInMaine

SteveInMaine — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:53:45 -0800

By: johnny novak

johnny novak — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 03:58:45 -0800

Dr Doberman how can you possibly educate people about environmental issues when you allow them to use these devices? In addition, just because there are big problems that need solved doesn't mean we should solve small ones as well.

By: Kirth Gerson

Kirth Gerson — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 04:07:54 -0800

You know the type... six Legoland units where there used to be one house. hengeman, I actually don't know the type. Could you describe these Legoland units a little? Are they made from plastic blocks, or what?

By: uncanny hengeman

uncanny hengeman — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 04:14:36 -0800

Could you describe these Legoland units a little? Are you taking the piss? It's just a form of expression for knocking down a big ol' house and jamming multiple, cheaply-made dwellings in its place, usually to make quick $$$.

By: PareidoliaticBoy

PareidoliaticBoy — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 04:15:07 -0800

It does seem rather counter-intuitive to attempt to heat up the great outdoors. Kind of like chasing a single leaf around for ages with a shrieking, 100-decible, gas-powered, leaf-blower; instead of simply bending over, picking it up, and putting it into the dam wheel-barrow.

By: asok

asok — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 04:22:48 -0800

As DrDoberman points out there is an issue with legislating against these things. As ever it is easier to shift the burden of polution responsibility to the public and small businesses than it is to pursue the industrial polluters who are responsible for the lions share of environmental pollution. That said, patio heaters cannot be used in an environmentally considerate way and therefore have plenty of grounds for strict government control IMHO.

By: VulcanMike

VulcanMike — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 04:24:51 -0800

Can someone put these numbers up against SUV energy consumption? My first thought was that burning SUVs outside my porch may be a more acceptable option.

By: StickyCarpet

StickyCarpet — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 04:36:28 -0800

eating hot stew around a fire on a cold day How do these emissions compare to a big old wood fire? Takes a heap of wood keep one of those going for 12 hours.

By: rhymer

rhymer — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 04:51:44 -0800

Cool. Does this mean everytime I see someone using a patio heater I can give them the finger?

By: wilful

wilful — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 05:06:24 -0800

How do these emissions compare to a big old wood fire? Takes a heap of wood keep one of those going for 12 hours. Wood is, as a renewable resource, and if harvested on a rotation, entirely greenhouse neutral. So the answer is, infinitely worse. But you probably already knew that.

By: Joeforking

Joeforking — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 05:09:33 -0800

Next week: burial or cremation? Including how to make a home crematorium by hacking that patio heater you feel guilty about using any more.

By: DrDoberman

DrDoberman — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 05:31:48 -0800

how can you possibly educate people about environmental issues when you allow them to use these devices? Eh? I would guess most people are blissfully unaware that these devices are bad for the environment. However, if the public were able to make an informed and educated choice at the shop, sales may be different. Personally, I don't think this warrants using the blunt instrument of legislation.

By: biffa

biffa — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 06:20:05 -0800

Strange to see this in The Guardian, it reads more like a 'monster-nazi-paedo-terror-immigration-scare' story from the Daily Mail. To be honest, I would rather the government concentrated on real issues of pollution. Is the impact of a few patio heaters, used for a couple of months a year really worth worrying about too much, when the government could be, for example, helping EcoDiesel onto every forecourt in the land! Maybe promoting LPG conversions for cars with grants. Or dare I say, investing in a viable public transport system - like Holland has. DrDoberman: The article is part of an ongoing series in the Guardian about ethical living, so it's criticism of patio heaters is in terms of individual responsability rather than a bid to have the heaters banned by government. Effectively, the article is educational, it's laying down the impacts connected to personal use of heaters.

By: scheptech

scheptech — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 06:32:34 -0800

I like Miles' solution: put on a jumper... ok so what's a jumper?

By: three blind mice

three blind mice — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 06:35:47 -0800

why oh why would you intentionally go outside in the winter? The winter? In Sweden you need these things in the summer. Here in Stockholm, every restarant with "uteservering" has them at the ready. Lap blankets too. Deriding the patio heater as a gross excess is a luxury reserved for those who live at lower lattitudes.

By: loquacious

loquacious — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 06:38:03 -0800

The flip side is something I've seen at restaurants in Phoenix: They spray a fine, misty canopy of water over the outside eating area to keep their customers cool. You'd think water would be a more precious commodity there. I recently moved to Phoenix. Those misters are the only thing keeping us from drying up, baking in the sun and turning into human jerky. They also make these awesome little portable hand-pumped ones. They honestly don't use very much water. I doubt you could pump a gallon through one of those atomizer nozzles in 24 hours. What's really, really stupid is trying to have a lawn in Phoenix. Or a golf course. There's plenty of both, here. Though, most of the new developments I've seen feature only rock/gravel yards with true xeriscaping - lots of native (and non-native) desert plants. A huge percentage of older homes and shopping complexes are the same. There's even a market here for those new-fangled high tech fake lawns. Those things are weird.

By: any major dude

any major dude — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 06:40:57 -0800

While you are all up in arms about the four or five patio heaters in use how about giving some energy to an issue that everyone deals with. Lawnmowers. Did you know that running your lawnmower for 30 minutes is the equivalent in pollution emissions of a car driving 172 miles?

By: etc.

etc. — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 07:02:45 -0800

You know what this means, right? As long as you turn off your patio heater, you and all your friends are welcome to drive your SUVs around all day guilt free! Seriously, forget about the gaddam patio heaters and let's worry about the real problems. There are a thousand sources of pollutants worse than patio heaters: cars, factories, etc. Honestly, if I didn't know better, I'd think this article was satirical or else I'd think it was purposeful deflection by conservatives away from the real problems. I can just see them: "Hey, let's get 'em all worked up over PATIO HEATERS. Then if we outlaw them, they'll think it was a VICTORY. Ha ha ha ha ha! Who gives a damn about patio heaters!"

By: johnny novak

johnny novak — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 07:10:23 -0800

again etc. just because there are big issues doesn't mean we can't address the smaller ones - an analogy to make it simpler - we (and here I'm talking for all of humanity) are engaged in looking for cures for the common cold and cancer.

By: fungible

fungible — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 07:54:50 -0800

Interesting, I'd never heard of this. Thanks. Here's a solution: Why not just set your Hummer on fire?

By: dglynn

dglynn — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 07:58:57 -0800

The first time I ever saw one of these was at a conference in (I swear to God) San Diego. It was 62 degrees outside. I turned two of them off and no one noticed. Lower latitudes indeed.

By: delmoi

delmoi — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:05:06 -0800

People should be allowed to use these things if they are willing to pay for the greenhouse gasses they emit (say, by buying gas credits or something).

By: funambulist

funambulist — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:26:36 -0800

Never heard of this either. I had to go search for pictures because I couldn't even imagine how a "patio heater" looks. So ok I'm at the lower altitudes and have the opposite problem - I'd like a wearable air conditioner for summer - but even with a bit of effort I just don't get how would anyone want to sit and eat or drink outside when the weather at that time of the year is just not warm enough to do so. What's wrong with warm, cosy pubs and restaurants? What happened to conservatories?

By: antifuse

antifuse — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:30:14 -0800

Deriding the patio heater as a gross excess is a luxury reserved for those who live at lower lattitudes. Like, say, England, which is where this article is aimed. :) Did you know that running your lawnmower for 30 minutes is the equivalent in pollution emissions of a car driving 172 miles? Hrmm. My electric lawnmower has zero emissions. So where do I fit into that equation?

By: parallax7d

parallax7d — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:51:45 -0800

Your electric lawnmower was made in an off planet factory, and runs off solar electricity?

By: Mitheral

Mitheral — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:03:16 -0800

antifuse writes "My electric lawnmower has zero emissions. So where do I fit into that equation?" Make that has zero local emissions, or are you plugging it into a solar panel?

By: antifuse

antifuse — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:10:43 -0800

Ok, fine, if you want to be pedantic about it, zero LOCAL emissions. Unless you count the stank from my armpits after pushing around the damn wheel-less thing (it is a hover-mower, the future is now!). But the article he linked was specifically talking about the LOCAL emissions of gas powered lawnmowers.

By: cavalier

cavalier — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:27:08 -0800

I'm very disturbed. I'm assuming these are the same portable flame poles I'm seeing more and more often throughout restaurants and trendy nightspots in the US to let people stay outside? I very naively thought that whoever engineered these little burners had figured out some sort of fuel or combo mixture that limited their harmful emissions. Does anyone have any study/action/links for this sort of thing? I thought they were a bit unnecessary where I've seen them, and now I'm close to apalled assuming that these are all the same sort of gizmo and they are really that atrocious at their use of fuels.

By: mathowie

mathowie — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:51:38 -0800

That's a bummer. I've enjoyed the heat from these things at plenty of outdoor bars, restaurants, and parties before. I even thought about getting one for my own backyard someday since Oregon has crisp cold nights 9 months of the year.

By: Jon Mitchell

Jon Mitchell — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:26:35 -0800

If i don't ever own a car, and only use the patio heater once a month for a few hours, is it ok then? I admit I'd kind of like one as well...

By: Kirth Gerson

Kirth Gerson — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:04:38 -0800

hengeman, no. Like I said, I didn't know what a Legoland house was. I had never seen the expression before. Please don't burn SUVs to keep warm. Those things are chock-full of toxic materials, and your unborn children could turn out strange.

By: Secret Life of Gravy

Secret Life of Gravy — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:38:18 -0800

The first time I ever saw one of these was at a conference in (I swear to God) San Diego. It was 62 degrees outside. I turned two of them off and no one noticed. Lower latitudes indeed. posted by dglynn at 10:58 AM EST As a native of Cali, I can attest that these things are hugely popular-- nearly every restaurant has them because the night time temperature lows, even in the summer, are too low for sitting around. So a hamburger joint in Long Beach, say, will have them for the dinner crowd. They are also popular here in North Carolina in the mountains for the same reason. And this is the first that I've heard that they are so bad for the environment. Maybe there should be some attempt to educate the public?

By: Mitheral

Mitheral — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 13:46:30 -0800

cavalier writes "I very naively thought that whoever engineered these little burners had figured out some sort of fuel or combo mixture that limited their harmful emissions." I'm thinking the only emissions is CO2 and water. A natrual gas flame burning on a properly adjusted burner is about a clean as you can get, fossil fuel wise. Still I can't imagine the thinking that has anyone who truely cares about the enviroment burning gas to heat the outdoors.

By: mrgrimm

mrgrimm — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:46:31 -0800

Thanks for bringing up the subject, as there were lots of us who were ill-informed. Nearly every restaurant/bar with outdoor space uses these things. Pass the info along.

By: wilful

wilful — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:19:15 -0800

It's funny how they're totally utterly necessary for civilisation to proceed now. How on earth did we survive 20 years ago?? Oh that's right, we put a jumper on. These things will be fine, if and when the carbon tax is paid on them. Which would be simple to do, but it would just make them a little pricey to run.

By: Carbolic

Carbolic — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:41:54 -0800

It's okay with me but those farmers need to do something about those cow farts and those goddamned campfires must go.

By: theperfectcrime

theperfectcrime — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 20:25:42 -0800

The perfect alternative: la chimenea! (sorry, couldn't find a good link) Waddya think?

By: uncanny hengeman

uncanny hengeman — Thu, 13 Oct 2005 22:58:23 -0800

Without wanting to sound rude – I can't believe how many people find this to be "news". (Big ups to Dr Karl Kruszelnicki and others!) Where I live there's even been a concerted push to have indoor wood-fired heaters banned, for similar reasons outlined above. That, and the fact that the whole city is choked with smog that smells suspiciously like burnt wood on too many winter's mornings.

By: biffa

biffa — Fri, 14 Oct 2005 01:15:34 -0800

la chimenea: used them before, found their ability to broadcast heat beyond a range very close to the equipment was extremely limited.