Another spineless Democrat
October 15, 2005 2:59 AM Subscribe
"Tim Kaine says Adolf Hitler doesn't qualify for the death penalty." Or so say Republican campaign ads supporting Jerry Kilgore, Virginia's attorney general, in his bid to become that state's new governor. Tim Kaine, the Democratic lieutenant governor, says his moral objections to capital punishment are rooted in his Roman Catholic faith. "Solidly pro-life" Jim Kilgore, endorsed by the Virginia Society for Human Life and National Right to Life political action committees, accuses Kaine of being an "anti-death penalty activist who cannot be trusted to oversee the death penalty in Virginia." This is important to Virginians. Based on the number of executions carried out under the post Furman laws, Virginians are second only to Texans in their fondness for execution. As attorney general, Kilgore tried to expand the kinds of crimes that would be eligible for the death penalty. Tim Kaine reassured voters, "That's why I personally oppose the death penalty. But I take my oath of office seriously, and I'll enforce the death penalty . . . because it's the law."
For the record, Hitler also doesn't qualify for the death penalty because he is dead.
posted by allen.spaulding at 3:21 AM on October 15, 2005
posted by allen.spaulding at 3:21 AM on October 15, 2005
Death penalty aside, that anyone can do a political ad using Hitler as an argument and not be laughed out of the country by a creeped out electorate is... well, words fail me.
posted by uncle harold at 3:30 AM on October 15, 2005
posted by uncle harold at 3:30 AM on October 15, 2005
Death penalty aside, that anyone can do a political ad using Hitler as an argument and not be laughed out of the country by a creeped out electorate is... well, words fail me.
Well, Kilgore is a Republican and this is Virginia.
posted by Josh Zhixel at 3:59 AM on October 15, 2005
Well, Kilgore is a Republican and this is Virginia.
posted by Josh Zhixel at 3:59 AM on October 15, 2005
If transparent tactics like this work in Virginia, how can the Viriginians tell who the retarded people are in order to execute them? Obviously, black people have dark skin so that's easy enough. But a mental handcap ceases to be strictly a handicap when most of the population functions on that level.
posted by Mayor Curley at 4:27 AM on October 15, 2005
posted by Mayor Curley at 4:27 AM on October 15, 2005
But a mental handcap ceases to be strictly a handicap when most of the population functions on that level.
Hold off on using most until after the election. There is a good chance that we can dodge this one...
posted by john m at 4:37 AM on October 15, 2005
Hold off on using most until after the election. There is a good chance that we can dodge this one...
posted by john m at 4:37 AM on October 15, 2005
I call Godwin's law on the campaign. Race is over. Jerry Kilgore must withdraw.
posted by VulcanMike at 5:45 AM on October 15, 2005
posted by VulcanMike at 5:45 AM on October 15, 2005
I really hate this state. The northern chunk of it, Fairfax County and around there, it really needs to secede and either form another state or join up with Maryland. The whole rest of the state is as backwards as they come.
I mean, what the hell?
posted by kafziel at 5:56 AM on October 15, 2005
I mean, what the hell?
posted by kafziel at 5:56 AM on October 15, 2005
kafziel: wow.
Most surprising (or not):
Vatican City
Lesbian: legal
Gay Male: legal
posted by uncle harold at 6:03 AM on October 15, 2005
Most surprising (or not):
Vatican City
Lesbian: legal
Gay Male: legal
posted by uncle harold at 6:03 AM on October 15, 2005
I quit this state.
posted by secret about box at 6:47 AM on October 15, 2005
posted by secret about box at 6:47 AM on October 15, 2005
Virginia burped a few years ago and elected John Warner, a democrat, to be governor. He put the state's financial house in order and is generally popular, having brought a modicum of dignity to the Commonwealth. Virginians are now back to their normal selves if they elect Kilgore, but it's a close race. Let's hope rationality prevails, but I have a bad feeling about this one.
That's why I'm moving to the west coast.
FYI, governors can only serve one consecutive term in VA, which I believe is unique in the States.
Donate to Kaine, if you'd like.
posted by bardic at 7:35 AM on October 15, 2005
That's why I'm moving to the west coast.
FYI, governors can only serve one consecutive term in VA, which I believe is unique in the States.
Donate to Kaine, if you'd like.
posted by bardic at 7:35 AM on October 15, 2005
Ouch! I meant Mark Warner, of course, not Liz Taylor's former husband.
posted by bardic at 7:37 AM on October 15, 2005
posted by bardic at 7:37 AM on October 15, 2005
Well, I don't think anyone "qualifies" for the death penalty, but that's because I think the death penalty is disgracefully immoral, period. Jesus us with me on this too, which is nice.
posted by Decani at 7:42 AM on October 15, 2005
posted by Decani at 7:42 AM on October 15, 2005
come on ... we could find a guy that looks like hitler and kill him, couldn't we?
sheesh ...
posted by pyramid termite at 7:52 AM on October 15, 2005
sheesh ...
posted by pyramid termite at 7:52 AM on October 15, 2005
actually, this stems from a reporter's question to kaine. "You couldn't conceive of a case where the person, because of his behavior or criminal conduct, deserves the death penalty. What about Adolf Hitler? Do you think he should be executed? Josef Stalin? Idi Amin?"
kilgore (republican, pro-death penalty) is capitalizing on kaine's response to that question. so, while i'm certainly not pro-death penalty, i fail to feel the same indignity at yet another political cheap shot during a campaign. audio clips of kaine's interview
posted by bliss322 at 7:59 AM on October 15, 2005
kilgore (republican, pro-death penalty) is capitalizing on kaine's response to that question. so, while i'm certainly not pro-death penalty, i fail to feel the same indignity at yet another political cheap shot during a campaign. audio clips of kaine's interview
posted by bliss322 at 7:59 AM on October 15, 2005
As a non-gringo who's lived in the US a few times, I find it odd how much of US electoral politics revolves around capital-punishment, blowjobs, school prayer, and other "issues", which, while of high symbolic power, have no actual effect on the lives of 99% of the voters; and things like employment rates, healthcare, education, racism, etc., which directly affect almost everyone get lost in the haze.
posted by signal at 8:19 AM on October 15, 2005
posted by signal at 8:19 AM on October 15, 2005
kafziel writes " I really hate this state. The northern chunk of it, Fairfax County and around there, it really needs to secede and either form another state or join up with Maryland. The whole rest of the state is as backwards as they come.
Hmmm... that's funny. If I recall correctly, Northern Virginia votes Republican, too.
But not because they have any interest in voting for someone who represents their moral beliefs. The don't give two shits about those. But Democrats will make them pay more taxes, and NoVa is the richest group of fuckers in the Mid-Atlantic.
I have busloads more respect for people who are at least voting according to their beliefs, no matter how wacky, instead of just choosing the candidate that will best represent their stinginess.
Virginia should be like here, where people vote their conscience *and* their pocketbook.
posted by Deathalicious at 8:22 AM on October 15, 2005
Hmmm... that's funny. If I recall correctly, Northern Virginia votes Republican, too.
But not because they have any interest in voting for someone who represents their moral beliefs. The don't give two shits about those. But Democrats will make them pay more taxes, and NoVa is the richest group of fuckers in the Mid-Atlantic.
I have busloads more respect for people who are at least voting according to their beliefs, no matter how wacky, instead of just choosing the candidate that will best represent their stinginess.
Virginia should be like here, where people vote their conscience *and* their pocketbook.
posted by Deathalicious at 8:22 AM on October 15, 2005
bardic writes " Ouch! I meant Mark Warner, of course, not Liz Taylor's former husband."
I actually kind of like the guy. I mean, he's diametrically opposed to most of the things I stand for, but he seems at least to be honest about it. Whenever I write him one of my "Support this bill", "Vote against this bill" letters he always responds, with the reasons he made his decision. I've never heard a peep out of George Allen, even though I've sent him oodles of letters as well. Plus, John Warner is fairly moderate for a conservative and has reached across the aisle quite a few times to put good bills in play.
posted by Deathalicious at 8:24 AM on October 15, 2005
I actually kind of like the guy. I mean, he's diametrically opposed to most of the things I stand for, but he seems at least to be honest about it. Whenever I write him one of my "Support this bill", "Vote against this bill" letters he always responds, with the reasons he made his decision. I've never heard a peep out of George Allen, even though I've sent him oodles of letters as well. Plus, John Warner is fairly moderate for a conservative and has reached across the aisle quite a few times to put good bills in play.
posted by Deathalicious at 8:24 AM on October 15, 2005
Only a half-wit could equivocate a valid and reasoned position on capital punishment as being soft on Nazis. Then again, are talking about Republicans.
posted by runningdogofcapitalism at 8:57 AM on October 15, 2005
posted by runningdogofcapitalism at 8:57 AM on October 15, 2005
Republicans can always count on bloodlust.
The issue of capital punishment came up at the October 13, 1988 debate between the two presidential nominees. Bernard Shaw, the moderator of the debate, asked Dukakis, "Governor, if Kitty Dukakis [his wife] were raped and murdered, would you favor an irrevocable death penalty for the killer?" Dukakis replied coolly, "No, I don't, and I think you know that I've opposed the death penalty during all of my life," and explained his stance. The reply was sincere and well-put, but some felt Dukakis' answer lacked the emotion needed for a question in which he was forced to consider his wife's death. Many believe that this in part cost Dukakis the election.
Wikipedia
signal: As a non-gringo who's lived in the US a few times, I find it odd how much of US electoral politics revolves around capital-punishment, blowjobs, school prayer, and other "issues", which, while of high symbolic power, have no actual effect on the lives of 99% of the voters; and things like employment rates, healthcare, education, racism, etc., which directly affect almost everyone get lost in the haze.
As a gringo, I find it the single most frustrating thing about American politics.
posted by callmejay at 9:05 AM on October 15, 2005
The issue of capital punishment came up at the October 13, 1988 debate between the two presidential nominees. Bernard Shaw, the moderator of the debate, asked Dukakis, "Governor, if Kitty Dukakis [his wife] were raped and murdered, would you favor an irrevocable death penalty for the killer?" Dukakis replied coolly, "No, I don't, and I think you know that I've opposed the death penalty during all of my life," and explained his stance. The reply was sincere and well-put, but some felt Dukakis' answer lacked the emotion needed for a question in which he was forced to consider his wife's death. Many believe that this in part cost Dukakis the election.
Wikipedia
signal: As a non-gringo who's lived in the US a few times, I find it odd how much of US electoral politics revolves around capital-punishment, blowjobs, school prayer, and other "issues", which, while of high symbolic power, have no actual effect on the lives of 99% of the voters; and things like employment rates, healthcare, education, racism, etc., which directly affect almost everyone get lost in the haze.
As a gringo, I find it the single most frustrating thing about American politics.
posted by callmejay at 9:05 AM on October 15, 2005
They both sound like idiots. What's more important to Kaine, some elected office or his God? And Kilgore is obviously to the worst in people's fears and hatred.
posted by my sock puppet account at 9:06 AM on October 15, 2005
posted by my sock puppet account at 9:06 AM on October 15, 2005
Virginia is just a little confused by it's proximity to DC and Baltimore... it's still a vicious and simple minded southern state at heart.
posted by wfrgms at 9:09 AM on October 15, 2005
posted by wfrgms at 9:09 AM on October 15, 2005
What is this, the Dead Zone?
posted by kirkaracha at 9:23 AM on October 15, 2005
I'm a man of medicine. I'm supposed to save lives and ease suffering. And I love people. Therefore, I would have no choice but to kill the son of a bitch.Virginia is for lovers...of the death penalty.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:23 AM on October 15, 2005
What's more important to Kaine, some elected office or his God?
I don't understand why this statement makes Kaine an idiot. Would you have someone gain an office like this and want to enact sweeping reform to mold the laws to suit their own personal values system? Apparently he's able to differentiate between the office and its responsibilities, and his own personal beliefs. Although his God is important to how he chooses to run his own life, he's able to put that aside when considering the wishes of the citizens who (hopefully) elect him. Its called objectivity, and something more of our politicians could use.
I've lived in quite a few different states, but have never seen the like of this campaign. Kilgore actually has the father of a murdered man on a commercial, expressing his concern that the man who killed his son won't get killed in turn. Its all very Hammurabi and very creepy. And we all know that those who talk about being pro-life and life this, life that don't give a crap about life, they care about birth..ironically they tend to champion death as we can see here.
Eleven months and I'm off to overseas orders, good luck to you MeFi Virginians if you get stuck with Kilgore.
posted by tetsuo at 9:26 AM on October 15, 2005
I don't understand why this statement makes Kaine an idiot. Would you have someone gain an office like this and want to enact sweeping reform to mold the laws to suit their own personal values system? Apparently he's able to differentiate between the office and its responsibilities, and his own personal beliefs. Although his God is important to how he chooses to run his own life, he's able to put that aside when considering the wishes of the citizens who (hopefully) elect him. Its called objectivity, and something more of our politicians could use.
I've lived in quite a few different states, but have never seen the like of this campaign. Kilgore actually has the father of a murdered man on a commercial, expressing his concern that the man who killed his son won't get killed in turn. Its all very Hammurabi and very creepy. And we all know that those who talk about being pro-life and life this, life that don't give a crap about life, they care about birth..ironically they tend to champion death as we can see here.
Eleven months and I'm off to overseas orders, good luck to you MeFi Virginians if you get stuck with Kilgore.
posted by tetsuo at 9:26 AM on October 15, 2005
The page title is exactly so.
Of course, this race is over now. Kaine's reacting just like the GOP wants him to. He's answering the charges, which means there's that many more news cycles to establish the fact that Kaine would not, in fact, excute Hitler. By Monday, this will be as established a fact as Gore being a serial liar and Kerry faking injuries to get medals.
Democrats never learn. The moment you defend, you've already lost. Kaine's answer should have been along the lines of "I'll consider that question the moment you stop beating your wife." If you answer them, the GOP has gotten exactly what it wants -- reporters, on air, repeating those accusations, for more than one news cycle, which makes those accusations The Truth.
Now that Kaine is doing neither, we'll just watch him sink in the polls, then lose. Just like Dukakis. Just like Gore. Just like Kerry. Just like whatever goofball "liberal" the Democrats put up for sacrifice in 2008. I'm so looking forward to Hillary denying that she's a lesbian, over and over and over.
posted by eriko at 9:34 AM on October 15, 2005
Of course, this race is over now. Kaine's reacting just like the GOP wants him to. He's answering the charges, which means there's that many more news cycles to establish the fact that Kaine would not, in fact, excute Hitler. By Monday, this will be as established a fact as Gore being a serial liar and Kerry faking injuries to get medals.
Democrats never learn. The moment you defend, you've already lost. Kaine's answer should have been along the lines of "I'll consider that question the moment you stop beating your wife." If you answer them, the GOP has gotten exactly what it wants -- reporters, on air, repeating those accusations, for more than one news cycle, which makes those accusations The Truth.
Now that Kaine is doing neither, we'll just watch him sink in the polls, then lose. Just like Dukakis. Just like Gore. Just like Kerry. Just like whatever goofball "liberal" the Democrats put up for sacrifice in 2008. I'm so looking forward to Hillary denying that she's a lesbian, over and over and over.
posted by eriko at 9:34 AM on October 15, 2005
hey guys, calm down on knocking virginia. i like my home state... if anyone can find a state in the union that wasn't at least 1/3 for Bush in 2004 (save DC, which is obvious).... well, all i'm saying is at least we're not nebraska or something. there is a big movement in VA to turn it into a blue state. it does have the shortest margin of victory for bush in 04 of the states to the south and west of it.
hampton roads, NoVA, Richmond... there are plenty of liberal havens. that's how VA elects the nation's first black governor, Doug Wilder.
posted by teletype1 at 9:34 AM on October 15, 2005
hampton roads, NoVA, Richmond... there are plenty of liberal havens. that's how VA elects the nation's first black governor, Doug Wilder.
posted by teletype1 at 9:34 AM on October 15, 2005
I really hate this state. The northern chunk of it, Fairfax County and around there, it really needs to secede and either form another state or join up with Maryland. The whole rest of the state is as backwards as they come.
Thats kind of funny, for years I've been telling people that Virginia didn't start until after you'd driven through the northern part.
As things go, lets keep from insulting others if their opinions don't match up with yours. Or wait, isn't that a Republican tactic?
As for Kilgore, will he really signify a spiral into darkness if Virginian decide to embrace if he's elected governor? Is it the bad taste in ads from conversative groups supporting him? What will differ him from the previous Republican governors of Allen and Gilmore? Virginia has executed prisoners under Democrat governors, as much as Republican ones.
I'm a native Virginian, vote Democrat, but I support the death penalty.
posted by Atreides at 9:53 AM on October 15, 2005
Thats kind of funny, for years I've been telling people that Virginia didn't start until after you'd driven through the northern part.
As things go, lets keep from insulting others if their opinions don't match up with yours. Or wait, isn't that a Republican tactic?
As for Kilgore, will he really signify a spiral into darkness if Virginian decide to embrace if he's elected governor? Is it the bad taste in ads from conversative groups supporting him? What will differ him from the previous Republican governors of Allen and Gilmore? Virginia has executed prisoners under Democrat governors, as much as Republican ones.
I'm a native Virginian, vote Democrat, but I support the death penalty.
posted by Atreides at 9:53 AM on October 15, 2005
"I have busloads more respect for people who are at least voting according to their beliefs, no matter how wacky, instead of just choosing the candidate that will best represent their stinginess."
Maybe they believe they're entitled to keep their money. That's a fair belief, isn't it?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 9:57 AM on October 15, 2005
Maybe they believe they're entitled to keep their money. That's a fair belief, isn't it?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 9:57 AM on October 15, 2005
has anyone seen studies that indicate the factor of racism with the death penalty? this is the South after all.
posted by j-urb at 9:58 AM on October 15, 2005
posted by j-urb at 9:58 AM on October 15, 2005
If transparent tactics like this work in Virginia, how can the Viriginians tell who the retarded people are in order to execute them? Obviously, black people have dark skin so that's easy enough.
Virginia already dabbled in eugenics (so did California and Connecticut), it only took the state seventy years to issue an apology.
posted by Atreides at 10:06 AM on October 15, 2005
Virginia already dabbled in eugenics (so did California and Connecticut), it only took the state seventy years to issue an apology.
posted by Atreides at 10:06 AM on October 15, 2005
Actually, Tim Kaine said that he would execute Hitler. Edited transcript from the interview in question:
Whatever. Godwin's Law foretold this, at least under the fun, new, expanded Godwin's Law, which applies to more than Usenet.
posted by waldo at 10:13 AM on October 15, 2005
Q: You couldn’t conceive of a case where a person, because of his behavior and criminal conduct, deserved the death penalty? What about Adolf Hitler? Do you think he should be executed? Should have been executed? Josef Stalin? Idi Amin?Kilgore's accusation is wholly invented.
A: They deserve the death penalty.
Whatever. Godwin's Law foretold this, at least under the fun, new, expanded Godwin's Law, which applies to more than Usenet.
posted by waldo at 10:13 AM on October 15, 2005
three blind mice, it's actually "Jerry Kilgore," not "Jim Kilgore."
posted by waldo at 10:29 AM on October 15, 2005
posted by waldo at 10:29 AM on October 15, 2005
For anybody curious about the nature of the race, I've summed things up in a pair of songs, each remixes of the audio from one of the debates. They feature the sultry stylings of Republican candidate Jerry Kilgore.
"Trust the People"
"Positive Message"
The featured audio is from Wired's Rip Mix Burn Creative Commons music compilation.
posted by waldo at 10:37 AM on October 15, 2005
"Trust the People"
"Positive Message"
The featured audio is from Wired's Rip Mix Burn Creative Commons music compilation.
posted by waldo at 10:37 AM on October 15, 2005
What about Darth Vader?
posted by armoured-ant at 11:20 AM on October 15, 2005
posted by armoured-ant at 11:20 AM on October 15, 2005
It's entirely sensible for voters to focus some attention on the death penalty.
While the death penalty, itself, won't directly many people, it's a tangible and important indicator of a politician's fundamental views on public order.
While I'm sure they're out there, I've yet to meet an opponent of the death penalty who wasn't eager to shorten prison sentences or hamstring cops in performing their duties.
Bring me someone with a truly relentless disposition to criminals and the subsidization of of the sundry degeneracies which are at its root, who nevertheless opposes the death penalty, and he might well get my vote.
posted by MattD at 11:26 AM on October 15, 2005
While the death penalty, itself, won't directly many people, it's a tangible and important indicator of a politician's fundamental views on public order.
While I'm sure they're out there, I've yet to meet an opponent of the death penalty who wasn't eager to shorten prison sentences or hamstring cops in performing their duties.
Bring me someone with a truly relentless disposition to criminals and the subsidization of of the sundry degeneracies which are at its root, who nevertheless opposes the death penalty, and he might well get my vote.
posted by MattD at 11:26 AM on October 15, 2005
waldo
I listened to the audio clips, and to me it sounds like he's saying yes, of course they deserve the death penalty, but I wouldn't give it to them, i.e. it's God's role, not mine.
Still doesn't justify the Republicans' ads, but just sayin....
posted by greatgefilte at 11:33 AM on October 15, 2005
I listened to the audio clips, and to me it sounds like he's saying yes, of course they deserve the death penalty, but I wouldn't give it to them, i.e. it's God's role, not mine.
Still doesn't justify the Republicans' ads, but just sayin....
posted by greatgefilte at 11:33 AM on October 15, 2005
While I'm sure they're out there, I've yet to meet an opponent of the death penalty who wasn't eager to shorten prison sentences or hamstring cops in performing their duties.
Hello, my name is Optimus Chyme. How are you?
(Though you'll have to tell me what you mean by "eager to . . . hamstring cops in performing their duties" because that's not very specific; I do believe they should follow Constitutional procedure. Hope that's not a deal-breaker.)
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:55 AM on October 15, 2005
Hello, my name is Optimus Chyme. How are you?
(Though you'll have to tell me what you mean by "eager to . . . hamstring cops in performing their duties" because that's not very specific; I do believe they should follow Constitutional procedure. Hope that's not a deal-breaker.)
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:55 AM on October 15, 2005
Hi. I'm Ryvar. I'm an opponent of the death penalty who isn't eager to shorten prison sentences. I am in favor of turning prisons from forced-labor and rape complexes into something more rehabilitative, however, which may be a deal-breaker.
posted by Ryvar at 1:05 PM on October 15, 2005
posted by Ryvar at 1:05 PM on October 15, 2005
That Dukakis argument drives me nuts, callmejay. People pose this argument all the time. And they're usually with me on the "don't trust the government" front. Higher taxes? No way! Take our guns? Never! But, yeah, we trust you to make the right choice to take the life of someone you deem as a criminal - Wha?
I would Keyser Soze someone who raped and killed my wife. I'd kill their parents, their children, their cousins, people that owe them money, ex-girlfriends, I'd burn their houses down, scorch the land they walked on and salt the earth behind me. I'd torture them so long they would think it's their career.
This is why we have the government, laws, etc, and why vigilante justice isn't acceptable.
+What Decani said.
What one believes is right can be a far cry from how one would (over)react.
I'm astonished that there are people who believe this is right. How can someone 'deserve' to die?
Do people then 'deserve' to live? Why don't we work on that part?
We're supposed to be one of the most sophisticated countries in the world, yet our morality is puerile and our focus on "issues" (such as capital-punishment, blowjobs, school prayer, etc as signal pointed out) is pedantic.
'Does Hitler deserve the death penalty?' Jesus F'ing Christ there are times I'm ashamed to be associated with other Americans.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:32 PM on October 15, 2005
I would Keyser Soze someone who raped and killed my wife. I'd kill their parents, their children, their cousins, people that owe them money, ex-girlfriends, I'd burn their houses down, scorch the land they walked on and salt the earth behind me. I'd torture them so long they would think it's their career.
This is why we have the government, laws, etc, and why vigilante justice isn't acceptable.
+What Decani said.
What one believes is right can be a far cry from how one would (over)react.
I'm astonished that there are people who believe this is right. How can someone 'deserve' to die?
Do people then 'deserve' to live? Why don't we work on that part?
We're supposed to be one of the most sophisticated countries in the world, yet our morality is puerile and our focus on "issues" (such as capital-punishment, blowjobs, school prayer, etc as signal pointed out) is pedantic.
'Does Hitler deserve the death penalty?' Jesus F'ing Christ there are times I'm ashamed to be associated with other Americans.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:32 PM on October 15, 2005
Hey, MattD: would you vote for me or Ryvar or what?
posted by Optimus Chyme at 7:55 AM on October 16, 2005
posted by Optimus Chyme at 7:55 AM on October 16, 2005
Guess not.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:39 AM on October 17, 2005
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:39 AM on October 17, 2005
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*head explodes*
posted by wakko at 3:00 AM on October 15, 2005