News Filter: Hollywood Madam Starts a Stud Farm

November 18, 2005 7:49 AM

Heidi Fleiss plans to open a brothel . . .. . . which will cater to women in Nevada. Money quote: " . . . you've got the situation with the old husband leaving his wife for the younger girl, and the lady sitting at home crying. Well, now she has a place to go and say, 'Right back at you, buddy, and on your credit card'.
posted by chai-rista (128 comments total)

Coal to Newcastle, anybody?

Seriously, Heidi Fleiss is redefining "skanky."
posted by 1016 at 7:51 AM on November 18, 2005

This is one of those stories that I would not have been aware of if you hadn't posted it. Please un-post it.
posted by 517 at 8:02 AM on November 18, 2005

Isn't Heidi Fleiss like Sheryl Crow's younger, dumber and alot less attractive and talented sister (nice flattering pic of her in the link)? Maybe its just me. Brothels for women will take over the world, just like stripclubs for women, oh wait.

But I sure do like the making "him" pay for your post-dump coitage. Because nothing says fuck you like a hired stud.
posted by fenriq at 8:07 AM on November 18, 2005

What Heidi does not seem to understand is that men can be disgusting creatures. There is not really a woman that cannot get some on the planet. If you don't believe me, just go check out the working women on the streets of any town in America, remember men will actually pay these women for sex. On top of that, were talking about Vegas. You're going to tell me that a woman can't just go to a bar, any bar in Vegas, and not pick up a man when she actually wants to?
posted by Pollomacho at 8:08 AM on November 18, 2005

I read this earlier today elsewhere and then, just as now, didn't get what the fuss is about.
posted by uncle harold at 8:09 AM on November 18, 2005

I doubt that a brothel catering to women will do well. Even the most unattractive woman can get sex, if that's all she wants, simply by making herself available and not being too picky.
posted by jonmc at 8:09 AM on November 18, 2005

Shouldn't it be called a sistel?
posted by iconomy at 8:11 AM on November 18, 2005

I think sistel is the proper term.
posted by j-urb at 8:12 AM on November 18, 2005

fenriq: "(nice flattering pic of her in the link)"

I laughed out loud at work when I saw that photo. My co-workers came over to see what I was reading, and everything was awkward for a moment. Then they laughed that the photo, too.

Good times!
posted by Plutor at 8:12 AM on November 18, 2005

Shouldn't it be called a sistel?
posted by iconomy at 10:11 AM CST on November 18 [!]

Well-played.
posted by COBRA! at 8:12 AM on November 18, 2005

Pickiness is not the exclusive domain of males.
posted by postmodernmillie at 8:14 AM on November 18, 2005

Maybe they are paying for a proper humpin' from a clean, non-gnarly drunk slob who doesn't do the O face after 35 seconds and wander off looking for a chicken leg?
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:14 AM on November 18, 2005

A-fucking-men to that, Wino.
posted by postmodernmillie at 8:15 AM on November 18, 2005

Pickiness is not the exclusive domain of males.

Pickiness is actually more native to females, precisely because they are the ones who traditionally hold coital veto power. Most men, when single (and horny enough) will fuck literally anything.

But that's beside the point. Women are far better at attracting the opposite sex than vice versa, hence there really isn't much call for boy whores for gals.
posted by jonmc at 8:16 AM on November 18, 2005

Maybe they are paying for a proper humpin' from a clean, non-gnarly drunk slob who doesn't do the O face after 35 seconds and wander off looking for a chicken leg?

Demanding bitches.
posted by jonmc at 8:17 AM on November 18, 2005

Dinty Moore vs. Wolfgang Puck. Bon appetit.
posted by postmodernmillie at 8:18 AM on November 18, 2005

I don't doubt that women would go to brothels for largely different reasons than the average man does, but I don't think that means that they wouldn't have reasons. I can imagine a lot of reasons. So I think the biggest hurdle is the social unacceptability of it.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 8:18 AM on November 18, 2005

Dinty Moore vs. Wolfgang Puck.

Or in this case Dirty Whore Vs. Wolfbang Fuck.
posted by jonmc at 8:19 AM on November 18, 2005

Isn't Heidi Fleiss like Sheryl Crow's younger, dumber and alot less attractive and talented sister (nice flattering pic of her in the link)? Maybe its just me. Brothels for women will take over the world, just like stripclubs for women, oh wait.

I think Sheryl Crow is not that hot, and that's a very unflattering picture.

What Heidi does not seem to understand is that men can be disgusting creatures. There is not really a woman that cannot get some on the planet. If you don't believe me, just go check out the working women on the streets of any town in America, remember men will actually pay these women for sex. On top of that, were talking about Vegas. You're going to tell me that a woman can't just go to a bar, any bar in Vegas, and not pick up a man when she actually wants to?

Not if they're ugly, or insecure about picking up random dudes. A gigolotorium would provide a safe, secure environment where they don't have to worry about crazy dudes, STDs, guys who don't want to wear condoms, or getting turned down.

I doubt that a brothel catering to women will do well. Even the most unattractive woman can get sex, if that's all she wants, simply by making herself available and not being too picky.

Well, but what if they are picky?
posted by delmoi at 8:20 AM on November 18, 2005

Do they have big dongs?
posted by Captaintripps at 8:21 AM on November 18, 2005

I like the idea but hate her using revenge (on a cheating husband) as an angle or incentive.
posted by iconomy at 8:21 AM on November 18, 2005

Well, but what if they are picky?

Then they deserve to be lonely.
posted by jonmc at 8:22 AM on November 18, 2005

Tell you what... I have been celibate for over a year because I have standards. Not ridiculous standards, mind you, just standards like, say, they can't be legally married, morbidly obese, insane, or have STDs. I've had to toss many a trout back into the stream. Hello, Vegas.
posted by postmodernmillie at 8:23 AM on November 18, 2005

I doubt that a brothel catering to women will do well. Even the most unattractive woman can get sex, if that's all she wants, simply by making herself available and not being too picky.

I suspect that it won't either. And yeah, women can pretty much always get laid. Though the standards you have to lower aren't so much those pertaining to looks or intellect, but those of emotional satisfaction. It's easy to find a great looking guy who'll be happy to spend the night with you. What's not so easy is finding one who will call you and want to see you again. And that's not something you can buy.

I bet Fleiss gives up on the idea of running a stud farm and goes back to running a chick farm. She's too greedy to settle for less than what she knows she can make.
posted by orange swan at 8:25 AM on November 18, 2005

Yeah, Captaintripps, I'm pretty sure Heidi will screen them ... erm, deeply ... for dong-age.
posted by chai-rista at 8:28 AM on November 18, 2005

Then they deserve to be lonely.

Or they can pay for sex.

And also, what about sheer lazyness? Trying to pick up a guy for some sex sounds like a lot of work and emotional stress. This is easy. You pay $300 and you get a safe experiance with a buff dude with a giant penis.

Sounds a lot easier.
posted by delmoi at 8:29 AM on November 18, 2005

Mmmmm.. Chicken legs.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 8:32 AM on November 18, 2005

I was being a smartass, delmoi. But, honestly, I don't see a whole lot of women going for this.
posted by jonmc at 8:32 AM on November 18, 2005

"...legally married, morbidly obese, insane, or have STDs..."

You state low standards like that and you put hope out there in the universe but the truth is, your standards are higher than that.
posted by 517 at 8:33 AM on November 18, 2005

"...your standards are higher than that."

For relationships? Yes. For fucking? Not really.
posted by postmodernmillie at 8:34 AM on November 18, 2005

*checks scrawny, disease-free, unmarried, sane self in mirror*

buy you a drink?

just kidding. have a girlfriend. eat your heart out
posted by jonmc at 8:35 AM on November 18, 2005

So anyway, I'll be in Albuquerque on the...
posted by 517 at 8:36 AM on November 18, 2005

Hey! Wait a second... I'm in Albuquerque!
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 8:39 AM on November 18, 2005

No comment. :-)
posted by postmodernmillie at 8:39 AM on November 18, 2005

One practical problem I see with this sort of thing is that with the traditional male client/female prostitute interaction, the satisfaction of the client is easy to both measure and verify (i.e. orgasm = money's worth). For female clients, will there be a money back guarantee for any session that doesn't end in orgasm?
posted by you just lost the game at 8:41 AM on November 18, 2005

probably not a 'whole lot' of women will go for this, but some will. And if there's not too much competition Heidi will clean up.
posted by delmoi at 8:42 AM on November 18, 2005

Mmmmm.. Chicken legs.

Yeah I totally got hungry for a chicken leg right after I typed that.
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:42 AM on November 18, 2005

I'm thinking Heidi might use the pre-paid cellular phone model.
posted by postmodernmillie at 8:42 AM on November 18, 2005

You clearly don't have experience in these matters¹, yjltg.

1. That being prostitution, not women having orgasms.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 8:43 AM on November 18, 2005

I'm considering running the same business. If you're not satisfied with the experience, you can even have your money back.
posted by horsewithnoname at 8:44 AM on November 18, 2005

Seriously, now. I can attest to the fact that postmodernmillie is an attractive woman in her 30s. So it's not the case that she couldn't get laid by a good-looking man or anything. So, pmm, be honest: would you use this service?
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 8:45 AM on November 18, 2005

No, I don't...but if I shelled out $$$ for a sex act, I'd be feeling mighty dissatisfied if it didn't have a happy ending.

/ fully aware that, for women, orgasm isn't the be-all, end-all obsession it is for men.
posted by you just lost the game at 8:46 AM on November 18, 2005

I should say, *some* women.
posted by you just lost the game at 8:46 AM on November 18, 2005

Heidi is proposing this as some sort of emotional therapy. She figures a woman who's already experienced the pain and rejection of infidelity needs to go ahead and really debase herself, by her own choice this time, by paying a stranger for sex. And the hook is her ex is out some cash. Wouldn't she be a lot better off spending his money on a ton of new clothes and going out?
posted by scheptech at 8:49 AM on November 18, 2005

"I'd be feeling mighty dissatisfied if it didn't have a happy ending."

I think that a lot of men who aren't regulars might very well have problems having an orgasm. That can't be the standard for "when it's done" for that reason; but also, of course, then men could delay it to have as much time as they want. And speaking as someone who takes a very high dose of Prozac, it's possible for men to find pleasure in sex without an orgasm. Mind you, not willingly, speaking for myself.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 8:50 AM on November 18, 2005

"be honest: would you use this service?"

With relish.
posted by postmodernmillie at 8:51 AM on November 18, 2005

Not if they're ugly, or insecure about picking up random dudes.

Um, have you seen street walking prostitutes before? The real ones, not the NYPD Blue ones. Men pay to have sex with them too.

A gigolotorium would provide a safe, secure environment where they don't have to worry about crazy dudes, STDs, guys who don't want to wear condoms, or getting turned down.

See, there we go with the whole fiction of prostitution again. Let's clear this one up once and for all, prostitutes are not a safe alternative to meeting others and making a judgement call about whether to fuck them or not.
posted by Pollomacho at 8:51 AM on November 18, 2005

They can't be legally married, morbidly obese, insane, or have STDs Get a load of the Queen of Sheba.
posted by QuietDesperation at 8:51 AM on November 18, 2005

With relish.

Ah, hot dog fetishism. This explains everything.
posted by jonmc at 8:52 AM on November 18, 2005

If it's like a spa, with all the attendant pampering, I bet the gals will come in droves. Bachelorette parties? Road trips with the gals? They'll get plenty of business.

I'm just not sure Ms. Fleiss can pull off "classy."
posted by whatnot at 8:52 AM on November 18, 2005

it's possible for men to find pleasure in sex without an orgasm.

Well, sure...if orgasm is your only goal, you're bound to be a lousy lover and you're going to miss out on a lot of the fun. But it's not as fun getting to the end zone if you can't spike the ball.
posted by you just lost the game at 8:54 AM on November 18, 2005

See, there we go with the whole fiction of prostitution again. Let's clear this one up once and for all, prostitutes are not a safe alternative to meeting others and making a judgement call about whether to fuck them or not. --pollomacho

Pollomacho: Prostitution is legal in Navada (except in Las Vegas), and regulated by the government. Brothels in Navada are totaly safe, STD free, and condom use is manditory.

Duh.
posted by delmoi at 8:55 AM on November 18, 2005

I'm just so happy that EB and pollie aren't horribly fighting each other in this thread. Maybe there's a quiet cease-fire that I'm breaking, but the last callout made me sad and I don't even know the history. I find it interesting, though, that they orbit around relationship-sex threads.

*small dim lightbulb turns on*. Oh.


posted by cavalier at 8:57 AM on November 18, 2005

Um, have you seen street walking prostitutes before? The real ones, not the NYPD Blue ones. Men pay to have sex with them too.

I know. And it amazes me that anyone would go down that road when you've got your hand and your imagination to turn to for free.
posted by you just lost the game at 8:58 AM on November 18, 2005

Also:

Um, have you seen street walking prostitutes before? The real ones, not the NYPD Blue ones. Men pay to have sex with them too. --pollomacho

There is a whole gradient from the skankiest skanks to the most beautiful women in the world in terms of female prostitutes. The girls Heidi Fleiss worked with illegaly were very attractive. I assume the legal prostitution Heidi is planning to setup would have the same high standards.
posted by delmoi at 8:58 AM on November 18, 2005

Oh.

Not even close. Carry on.
posted by postmodernmillie at 8:58 AM on November 18, 2005

The girls Heidi Fleiss worked with illegaly were very attractive. I assume the legal prostitution Heidi is planning to setup would have the same high standards.

If the history of hookers and strippers (and the current standard of male beauty) is any indication, they'll be mostly gay guys having straight sex for extra cash.

or it could be this guy.
posted by jonmc at 9:03 AM on November 18, 2005

Because nothing says fuck you like a hired stud.

I thought the women's message was "Fuck me."
posted by papakwanz at 9:04 AM on November 18, 2005

If the history of hookers and strippers (and the current standard of male beauty) is any indication, they'll be mostly gay guys having straight sex for extra cash.

Or they'll cater to gay dudes. That's where the real money would be, I'd bet...
posted by delmoi at 9:04 AM on November 18, 2005

Well, is gay prostitution legal in Nevada? or lesbian prostitution at the female brothels? Would there need to be a separate law made? I'm actually curious.
posted by jonmc at 9:06 AM on November 18, 2005

Three reasons why such things can work:
1) Women do like to cheat on their mate with the alpha male.
2) Japan has had successful male "hosts" for quite a long time, and a full service version seems plausible.
3) Much of behavior is cultural/advertising.
In any such case, however, it remains true that male "prostitutes" need to sell themselves very diffrently than female prostitutes; likely need to work harder & train smarter too. Ms. Fleiss will need to grok an aspect of relationships which women want enough to pay for, and know how to train men to provide it.

One of many complicating factor for the "brothel" mentality is: female are generally wired to be more attracted to providers most of the time, but more attracted to alpha males when they are most fertile. It a useful trick for keeping a loyal provider around, while still catching the best genes available. Its also much of why the DNA testing companies report such high rates children with the wrong Y chromosome. Not good news for a straight brothel either. OTOH, a mixed brothel & host bar could exploit it.
posted by jeffburdges at 9:06 AM on November 18, 2005

"Not even close. Carry on."

Well, see there? Now you've hurt my feelings.

Cavalier: we've known each other since high school. Not lovers, nor ever have been.

Yes, we've worked out a detente. Haven't had a summit meeting, yet. I was going to propose one but after this thread it doesn't seem, um, appropriate.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 9:06 AM on November 18, 2005

cavalier,
Who cares about what EB and PMM are to each other? Don't be tacky, this isn't soap opera digest.

Sorry everyone else.
posted by Divine_Wino at 9:07 AM on November 18, 2005

"I thought the women's message was 'Fuck me.'"

Here, meet my cute friend, Peggy.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 9:08 AM on November 18, 2005

Don't be tacky, this isn't soap opera digest.

*organ music*
posted by jonmc at 9:08 AM on November 18, 2005

Well, is gay prostitution legal in Nevada? or lesbian prostitution at the female brothels? Would there need to be a separate law made? I'm actually curious.

Yeah, I wonder about that. I'm not sure how they'd be allowed to not have gay prostitution, but allow female prostitution?

Maybe it's just something gay advocacy groups just don't want to get involved in, in order to try to not seem seedy, just like how the ACLU dosn't support hetrosexual prostitution.
posted by delmoi at 9:13 AM on November 18, 2005

"Now you've hurt my feelings."

I'm sorry, EB, I wasn't dismissing you, I was gingerly tiptoeing 'round the quicksand pit.
posted by postmodernmillie at 9:14 AM on November 18, 2005

Ok ok I'm sorry I brought up the derail please you two you'll end up making baby jesus cry! And DW everyone has their opinion.
posted by cavalier at 9:18 AM on November 18, 2005

Brothels in Navada are totaly safe, STD free, and condom use is manditory.

Yeah, you just keep telling yourself that.

There is a whole gradient from the skankiest skanks to the most beautiful women in the world in terms of female prostitutes. The girls Heidi Fleiss worked with illegaly were very attractive. I assume the legal prostitution Heidi is planning to setup would have the same high standards.

Wow. My point was not that there aren't hot hookers, my point was that some men will have sex, no, some men will pay for sex with any woman. I'm sure Heidi's man-whores will be hottttt, and well, we all know that hot people don't get STD's.
posted by Pollomacho at 9:21 AM on November 18, 2005

I suspect that both of us might want to make baby jesus cry. He does this cute little hiccup thing. But I get your drift.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 9:21 AM on November 18, 2005

debase herself, by her own choice this time, by paying a stranger for sex.

Yes, because if a woman pays for sex with a male prostitute, she's the one debasing herself. If it's a man with a female prostitute, it's still the woman the one debasing herself. Men by definition can never debase themselves.

So, the only way for a woman not to debase herself through prostitution is to run a brothel. Heidi Fleiss wins!
posted by funambulist at 9:26 AM on November 18, 2005

One of many complicating factor for the "brothel" mentality is: female are generally wired to be more attracted to providers most of the time, but more attracted to alpha males when they are most fertile. It a useful trick for keeping a loyal provider around, while still catching the best genes available. Its also much of why the DNA testing companies report such high rates children with the wrong Y chromosome. Not good news for a straight brothel either. OTOH, a mixed brothel & host bar could exploit it.

Hmm... Now here's an interesting business idea. More then just a brothel, a place where rich career women could go to pick out potential mates, and try to get pregnant with 'em. It might be more fun then going to a sperm bank, and you'd actually get to meet and see your potential mate.

I think Spike Lee did a movie about that, where some guy works as a stud service for lesbians.
posted by delmoi at 9:27 AM on November 18, 2005

" think Spike Lee did a movie about that, where some guy works as a stud service for lesbians."

Yeah. I saw the trailer for that on a DVD. I thought:

WHAT
THE
FUCK
SPIKE?
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 9:29 AM on November 18, 2005

Brothels in Nevada are totally safe, STD free, and condom use is mandatory.--delmoi

Yeah, you just keep telling yourself that. --pollo

Alright, I will. And why not? Do you have some evidence that government controlled brothels in Nevada (as opposed to illegal brothels in the same state) are havens for unsafe sex and STDs?
posted by delmoi at 9:30 AM on November 18, 2005

Men by definition can never debase themselves.
So you'll do it for us, funambulist?
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 9:37 AM on November 18, 2005

A more succesful idea would be a place where woman could go to and have guys listen, and NOT try to fuck them.
posted by iamck at 9:43 AM on November 18, 2005

Seeing as registered prostitutes in Nevada are tested for STDs on a fairly regular basis (weekly for some, monthly for others) AND they are required to use condoms (and thus won't quibble about it when the time comes), I'd have to say that your chances of acquiring an STD at a brothel are significantly lower than walking into a bar and taking home the first person who says "yes" to you ... or any person you might find on your own. How many people you know get that thoroughly tested for any STD on a regular basis?

I don't know how well her business will do, but if I were single, horny, in the area, and had the spare cash, I'd probably try it out. Why not? The guys will probably be at least relatively good looking, they will have bathed recently, they will behave in a manner so as to not upset me in any way, and there won't be a chance that Joe Drunk I picked up at the bar might run into me again somewhere and embarrass me ... or give me some STD he doesn't know he has because he's never been tested for anything ever and doesn't want to wear a condom (which means I wouldn't have sex with him anyway).
posted by Orb at 9:50 AM on November 18, 2005

Do you have some evidence that government controlled brothels in Nevada (as opposed to illegal brothels in the same state) are havens for unsafe sex and STDs?

OK.
posted by Pollomacho at 9:53 AM on November 18, 2005

"A more succesful idea would be a place where woman could go to and have guys listen, and NOT try to fuck them."

Do you honestly think we would pay $300 for that? Honey, why do you think so many of us keep a stable of gay male friends?
posted by postmodernmillie at 9:54 AM on November 18, 2005

If this idea had been around during the bitter, bitter period following my divorce, and I could have made my ex pay for it? For all the reasons orb mentioned, I would have been there so fast your head would spin.

I personally find Heidi Fleiss... unsavory, but for the right demographic, her marketing idea may very well be quite successful.
posted by Space Kitty at 10:04 AM on November 18, 2005

weapons-grade: the cliché goes that men can't debase themselves cos they're already debased by nature. Or something like that.

I'm just trying to channel the zeitgeist here. I don't have opinions of my own unless I get paid for it.
posted by funambulist at 10:04 AM on November 18, 2005

A more succesful idea would be a place where woman could go to and have guys listen, and NOT try to fuck them.

Ouch, the cliche-o-meter is about to blow up now...

Honey, why do you think so many of us keep a stable of gay male friends?

*boom*
posted by funambulist at 10:05 AM on November 18, 2005

My cliche iz pastede on yay!
posted by postmodernmillie at 10:10 AM on November 18, 2005

Yes, because if a woman pays for sex with a male prostitute, she's the one debasing herself. If it's a man with a female prostitute, it's still the woman the one debasing herself.

Heh, just to be clear: the madam, the prostitute, and the customer are all debasing themselves IMHO.

Besides, where's the imagination anyway. Be smart, on top of the new clothes, book a nice vacation and find someone to take along, pay your lawyer with his credit card, or something. There's has to a thousand better ways to spend revenge money than heading for Nevada, which just seems stupid.
posted by scheptech at 10:16 AM on November 18, 2005

pollo: did you even read the link you posted?: An excerpt from that page

However we can say that in Nevada's legal brothels, the risks are MUCH less than going to any other prostitute in the USA. This is because these prostitutes are tested more than any other person for HIV and other STD's. And they cannot work if they are positive. Also, they must use latex condoms during all sexual activities.

From which you can conclude that that sleeping with one of those people is safer then sleeping with any random woman who is not a legal Nevada prostitute.

Yes, it's possible that a condom could fail, and HIV could take root before the girl is tested again, but it's very unlikely. But you have a government guarantee that the girl has been tested recently. You don't that picking up a girl (or a guy) in a bar, or anywhere else.

I never claimed that it was 100% safe, but for a lonely, horny girl it would be much, much safer then picking up a random dude in a bar.
posted by delmoi at 10:17 AM on November 18, 2005

Women would go for this for the same reason guys go for escorts: money allows them to "trade up." They get to spend the night with an attractive person that they could never attract if they weren't paying them. For a lot of girls, just like for a lot of guys, it feels good to be picky and be with somebody nicer(er looking than you) even if you have to flash a bunch of cash to do it. Plus, convienience is a big win too. Being able to schedule a time, place and preferences on eye/hair color/ethnicity is about as easy as it gets.
posted by nixerman at 10:22 AM on November 18, 2005

OK.
posted by Pollomacho at 9:53 AM PST on November 18

You should probably read your own links, bro. And that's one to grow on.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 10:30 AM on November 18, 2005

I'd hit it. Not daily, but occasionally.
posted by booksandlibretti at 10:31 AM on November 18, 2005

I certainly think this would fly, if done right. In fact, I'm surprised they don't already exist in Nevada. WTF?
posted by dobbs at 10:36 AM on November 18, 2005

I don't know sheptech, in the world there's millions and millions and millions of men from all kinds of walks of life, single, in relationships, married, young, old, fathers, sons, handsome, plain, plain ugly, thin, fat, etc. you get the idea, who pay for sex with prostitutes, each minute, as we speak.

They're definitely not all old lonely sad gits without any other recourse to sex with women and I don't think the two things - casual sex from personal encounters and prostitution - can be compared with one a substitute for the other. There is obviously something of a unique appeal or thrill or whatever you want to call it in the fact of paying for a prostitute, whether it's a one off or something of a habit. I don't know if it it could work the same way for women but even if male prostitution for female clients is obviously nowhere near the scale of female prostitution for male clients, Heidi Fleiss is not inventing anything new, except the setting.

And if you're cashing in without even having to do to the work, then no, you're not debasing yourself.

But then I'm not sure prostitution is the one profession in which you debase yourself anyway. Depends how you define debasing. Some sell their body, some sell their soul...

/overly melodramatic
posted by funambulist at 10:41 AM on November 18, 2005

Ya'll keep arguing. I'm updating my resume...
posted by jalexei at 10:46 AM on November 18, 2005

This might be an appropriate time for me to re-tell my prostitution story. I've only tried soliciting a prostitute once, while in my early twenties. I went to a supposed "massage parlor". There are a few interesting parts to the story. The first is that there actually was a madam who presented to me the choice of a woman. The second is that I was mortified that I had to choose one woman from the others in front of the others, and there was one woman who was quite a bit more attractive than the others that without question was my choice, but I pretended to choose her in an offhand, random fashion because I had this bizarre worry about offending the ones I didn't choose. The third is that I didn't bring enough money. The fourth is that because I didn't bring enough money, what I could afford was a massage that became a hand-job. The fifth is that in spite of the fact that the woman was quite attractive, the whole thing didn't work for me at all and I felt very silly. I just said, "Okay, I feel silly. Let's stop." We just made small talk in a hottub for a while.

I imagine most men won't admit that they've ever solicited a prostitute in a public forum, so I don't mind telling my story 'cause I think it's relevant.

It's relevant in that my guess is that a minority of men are like me: regardless of our arousal because of how we're "wired", the environment and circumstances is so off-putting that it just doesn't work in a straightforward manner. But I think it's possibly true that a majority of women would react this way. It may sound good in the absract, but in actual fact they'd be very, very sensitive to how it was presented and done. That's my guess, anyway.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 10:49 AM on November 18, 2005

Were you thinking what I was thinking?


posted by orelius at 11:03 AM on November 18, 2005

This might be an appropriate time for me to re-tell my prostitution story.

You just don't hear that often enough.
Thanks, EB :).
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 11:13 AM on November 18, 2005

orelius, can we get subtitles too please? ie. what does the photo mean?
posted by funambulist at 11:16 AM on November 18, 2005

Google stoned girl Apple, or Ellen Feiss.
posted by iconomy at 11:35 AM on November 18, 2005

There is obviously something of a unique appeal or thrill or whatever you want to call it in the fact of paying for a prostitute, whether it's a one off or something of a habit.

Power. Power and more power. Oh, and power.
posted by jokeefe at 11:44 AM on November 18, 2005

""A more succesful idea would be a place where woman could go to and have guys listen, and NOT try to fuck them."

Do you honestly think we would pay $300 for that?"

Well, someone's keeping all those therapists in business.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 12:04 PM on November 18, 2005

i think y'all should read salon's broadsheet readers' comments on this story. one of my favorites. (not sure if you need the daypass thingie to see the letters to the editor, apologies if this is the case.)
posted by lord_wolf at 12:04 PM on November 18, 2005

Eh, my first thought on this is how I couldn't do this if I was a guy.

Female prostitution seems pretty easy on the female. That is, if she isn't "ready," she could still satisfy a customer with no enjoyment for herself. This is why women can fake it.

But as a man, I know if I had to go to town more than a few times a day, I think I would lose it. Even if the peak of my god-like sexual wizardry, I could go on a sex bender, but I would be tapped out for a few days after.

Can these guys really got at it a dozen times a day, every day? I couldn't.

I think it women, as recievers, can have more partners. It seems men, as givers, would have the limitation based on their ability to regenerate. Or, at least, that was my first thought when I read this.
posted by dios at 12:19 PM on November 18, 2005

Yuck. Typos. I guess that is the attendant problem of trying to type with one hand after reading EB's story....
posted by dios at 12:20 PM on November 18, 2005

"A more succesful idea would be a place where woman could go to and have guys listen, and NOT try to fuck them."

This is exactly why the more successful hosts in Japan have Armani suits, Rolexes and Benzes all paid for by their clientele. There is sex occasionally, but usually by that point the woman has already bought him a car, or a condo.

I've heard stories about women being arrested for embezzling because they became so emotionally addicted to the host clubs that they ran up 5-figure monthly charges.
posted by bashos_frog at 12:24 PM on November 18, 2005

I read it, I read the whole article including this line:

To date, no actively working legal brothel prostitute has ever tested HIV positive. However, from time to time, there are cases of Chlamydia, Gonorrhea and rarely Syphilis, among active brothel workers. Chlamydia is the most common STD seen, however this is not a surprise, since Chlamydia is the most common STD in the USA overall.

So, people are having sex in legal brothels and transmitting STD's which is all you asked me to provide and really, this was the second or third thing I pulled up on a GIS, right after the former brothel worker's story of how she didn't use condoms and how management didn't care as long as the customers didn't complain, but I chose that link because it seemed a little more, I don't know, scientific?

I never claimed that it was 100% safe, but for a lonely, horny girl it would be much, much safer then picking up a random dude in a bar.

According to a 2004 TNS poll conducted for ABC news, the median lifetime number of sex partners for an American man is 8, let's round up to an easy 10 for the sake of simplicity.

Let's say the odds of contracting an STD from a sex act isn't 0%, but is nearly, maybe 1 in 100, that means that sex is 99% safe, right? So, ten random American guys, ten partners each means that one of those ten guys has had a taste of a bad apple.

A successful prostitute works almost every day, no? Even if a stud had only one partner a day for 200 days a year, that means at that same 99% safety rate, he's had 2 partners that year alone that he probably shouldn't have had.

OK, this is a stupid argument anyway, I don't even know why I'm still in it. If you want to fuck a pro, good for you, good luck. It's much safer that you fuck a legal Nevada brothel pro, but hey, it's your parts and your money, enjoy.
posted by Pollomacho at 12:43 PM on November 18, 2005

One word dios:

Viagra, and these guys could write it off as a business expense!
posted by Pollomacho at 12:47 PM on November 18, 2005

Yuck. Typos. I guess that is the attendant problem of trying to type with one hand after reading EB's story....

gaaaahhhh!!!!! TMI, dude, TMI!!!!
posted by lord_wolf at 12:48 PM on November 18, 2005

I would think that viagra in the long term would not be that healthy. . .I tend to agree with Dios about this.

The dynamics would certainly be different. . .I would assume that each *session* would be longer. . .and that the man's *readiness* would be more of an issue, since it's harder to fake it.

OK hands. . .how many guys in here have faked an orgasm? (not to derail)
posted by Danf at 1:16 PM on November 18, 2005

I've been tempted but never have. Again, it's an antidepressent thing.
posted by Ethereal Bligh at 1:19 PM on November 18, 2005

I'm a little surprised I have to point this out, but the working guys don't have to be "ready." They have many tools at their disposal, starting with their hands . . .
posted by chai-rista at 1:21 PM on November 18, 2005

Chai-rista. . yeah. . .hands, mouths, AA batteries, the works.

Possibly a man ready in *that way* might come with a surcharge.
posted by Danf at 1:23 PM on November 18, 2005

Will there be fluffers?
posted by dios at 1:27 PM on November 18, 2005

Or teaser stallions, where indicated.
posted by Danf at 1:29 PM on November 18, 2005

Will the male whores be fixed? I haven't seen one mention of what happens if a "client" gets pregnant.
posted by lunalaguna at 1:31 PM on November 18, 2005

I haven't seen one mention of what happens if a "client" gets pregnant.

Heidi gets to keep it.
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 1:32 PM on November 18, 2005

When Tom Sizemore made that porn he claimed that Fleiss wanted him to shit on her when they were together.
posted by puke & cry at 1:47 PM on November 18, 2005 [1 favorite]

dios makes a good point, but if they get paid half of the $250/hr, they only need to work an hour a day.

I think it's a good idea. I'm surprised nobody has tried it yet.
posted by mrgrimm at 2:19 PM on November 18, 2005

My husband instantly thought this was a dream job for the stable of men, until I reminded him of the year we spent trying to conceive.. scheduled sex gets old REALLY fast. Who would want a job that sucked the joy (npi) out of something so fun?

Being female, I can get sex if I want it, from basically any guy, and I'm no hottie. Very few men turn down an offer (and no, I haven't offered since I got married) no matter what the woman looks like. If I were going to bring money into the equation, though, I'd be asking for payment. Why spend when most guys will pay you? I do NOT see women going for this.

Not that I am interested in whoring myself out... but I'd get paid before I paid someone else.
posted by bairey at 2:43 PM on November 18, 2005

“Because nothing says fuck you like a hired stud.” posted by fenriq

Well...yeah. By definition.

“Can these guys really go at it a dozen times a day, every day?” - dios

No problem. *Theme music from the Olympics*

Seriously I heartily second bairey’s point on scheduled sex. Not only from the conception experiance, but I had a buddy who became a male stripper after he got out of jail. Said women sucking him got old, sex got old, etc. etc. But the money was good. Then asked me if I wanted to do it. Probably the most bizarre job offer I’d ever gotten.
/Uh, yeah, turned him down

Two words: hardcore cuddling.
posted by Smedleyman at 3:45 PM on November 18, 2005

Sure, why not? As long as it's clean, safe, and the guys are hot, I'd be interested.
posted by kosher_jenny at 5:04 PM on November 18, 2005

At some point we're all whores or johns. It's all a matter of price. And a good marketing campaign.

I think the venture may pay off for Ol' Heidi. However, she did sleep with Charlie Sheen for free... so maybe not.
posted by tkchrist at 6:10 PM on November 18, 2005

to those who think that even a not-so-attractive girl can get laid whenever she wants with basically any guy.... try going to a liberal arts college. guys are in incredibly high demand and girls have to lower their standards significantly if they want to get any. snagging an appealing guy is a rare occurence for me, and i'm by no means ugly. maybe the real world will be better?
posted by timory at 11:08 PM on November 18, 2005

Why spend when most guys will pay you?

At some point we're all whores or johns. It's all a matter of price. And a good marketing campaign.

How I love moralism posing as cynicism!
posted by funambulist at 7:30 AM on November 19, 2005

"Or they'll cater to gay dudes. That's where the real money would be, I'd bet..."

Delmoi - you bet your ass it would be.
posted by keptwench at 7:39 AM on November 19, 2005

timory, They are speaking in terms of "sex free & clear" type offers, which guys don't usually turn down and girls don't usually offer (unless they are married), as both are wired that way. Your right that all people become picky the moment they discover thay are able. Such pickiness is, however, fairly mindless and defusable with practice. Almost anyone who feels they are having trouble with dating just needs to get out and practice more. Try looking up "mirroring" sometime. Anyway, brothels create a situation where the john is paying for something he can't easily get otherwise: an attractive girl for shy guys, a girl who will "go away" for rock stars, etc.
posted by jeffburdges at 2:08 PM on November 19, 2005

jokeefe: yeah but I'm not sure power is the right word, I don't think it's that straightforward. It's more like buying a delusion of power. Even when there's no specialty fetish involved, the appeal is more in a sort of a regressive desire to be catered for, and the fact everything is limited and defined, down to the amount of time you have. It is the complete opposite of a chance sexual encounter, even the messiest drunken one night stand has an unpredictability to it that prostitution eliminates, and replaces with a business deal. It's two opposite desires. It's only a self-serving delusion to tell oneself prostitutes are a substitute for casual sex one "can't" get elsewhere.

Just think of the famous clients Fleiss had, and she wasn't the only one catering to them either.
posted by funambulist at 3:19 PM on November 19, 2005

"sex free & clear" type offers, which guys don't usually turn down and girls don't usually offer (unless they are married)

jeffburdges, you need to get out in the world a bit more, you poor thing!
posted by funambulist at 3:21 PM on November 19, 2005

funambulist: orelius, can we get subtitles too please? ie. what does the photo mean?

Here you go.
posted by deborah at 8:36 PM on November 19, 2005

thanks deborah (and iconomy) but erm I'm still not getting the connection except the name being similar and... is that it?
posted by funambulist at 4:13 AM on November 20, 2005

How I love moralism posing as cynicism!

How I love a passive-agressive and needless insult posing as critique.
posted by tkchrist at 2:32 PM on November 24, 2005