You're next.....

November 26, 2005 11:08 AM

NewsFilter: Anyone can be an enemy combatant
posted by lalochezia (45 comments total)

The judge, Joyce Hens Green of the Federal District Court in Washington, asked a series of hypothetical questions about who might be detained as an enemy combatant under the government's definition.

What about "a little old lady in Switzerland who writes checks to what she thinks is a charitable organization that helps orphans in Afghanistan but really is a front to finance Al Qaeda activities?" she asked.

And what about a resident of Dublin "who teaches English to the son of a person the C.I.A. knows to be a member of Al Qaeda?"

And "what about a Wall Street Journal reporter, working in Afghanistan, who knows the exact location of Osama bin Laden but does not reveal it to the United States government in order to protect her source?"

Mr. Boyle said the military had the power to detain all three people as enemy combatants.



This isn't a tinfoil hatted person hypothesizing: it's a justice department representative stating the gov'ts position in a court of law.

It's scary.
posted by lalochezia at 11:09 AM on November 26, 2005

"Much thought goes into how and why various tools are used in these often complicated cases," Tasia Scolinos, a Justice Department spokeswoman, said on Friday. "The important thing is for someone not to come away thinking this whole process is arbitrary, which it is not."

The important thing is not to think that we're evil, which we're not.
posted by JHarris at 11:12 AM on November 26, 2005

Bad news, nice tags.
posted by Plutor at 11:17 AM on November 26, 2005

any of us could be held just like Padilla--and they only charged him now to avoid a Supreme Court challenge to their policy. Our rights are disappearing, and we don't even have to be guilty of anything.
posted by amberglow at 11:28 AM on November 26, 2005

The really scary part is Padilla is the one we know about. How many other people are being detained as enemy combatants is anyones guess.
posted by Bighappyfunhouse at 11:42 AM on November 26, 2005

personally, i think half you guys couldn't possible disappear fast enough.
posted by keswick at 11:51 AM on November 26, 2005

Wait, let me get this straight.

It is the government position that is within its rights to detain as an enemy combatant a little old lady who - unknowingly - writes a cheque to a terrorist group believing it to be a charitable institution?

That's it. Big Brother's in charge, and it doesn't matter if it's a Democrat or a Republican who is sitting in the Oval Office, the Government of the United States of America is now a tyrannical regime.
posted by kaemaril at 12:03 PM on November 26, 2005

I don't know about you, but I find it very frightening that the government can hold just about anybody just about indefinitely on the basis of "He's a bad, bad, no-good evil person! Trust us!"

How the heck do we restore the Constitution and Bill of Rights? I want my country back!
posted by ilsa at 1:07 PM on November 26, 2005

Isn't the whole point of fighting terrorism (whatever that means) to hold on to our rights and preserve our way of living?
posted by Orange Goblin at 1:25 PM on November 26, 2005

it's all broken. Might as well go completely decadent. Gas, food, fat and sugar, overconsumption all the way... for who knows when we'll get picked up and incarcerated.

That or some type of treason, such as revolution.

I, personally, am tired of trying to fix things. The decadent life doesn't suit me, but it is v. tempting to fall into that lifestyle in current times.
posted by edgeways at 2:01 PM on November 26, 2005

Orange Goblin: Nope, it's to capture the evil-doers, and to hell with it if you have to stomp all over everybody's rights to do so. As an added bonus, if lives can be saved that'd be nice too.
posted by kaemaril at 2:07 PM on November 26, 2005

(um ... I'm being sarcastic, btw, if you couldn't tell (from my first post) where I am on this :) )
posted by kaemaril at 2:08 PM on November 26, 2005

The denial of justice in these types of cases is clearly not the American way. If the President is above the law, we may as well be living in a monarchy or dictatorship. Wait a second...
posted by j-urb at 4:03 PM on November 26, 2005

OMG! The US is a Monarchy!
posted by Balisong at 4:19 PM on November 26, 2005

Well, at least someone has finally admitted that habeas corpus is gone in the US.
posted by Dipsomaniac at 5:07 PM on November 26, 2005

This seems woefully under-commented to. Given the political and newsfilter nature of it, it seems strange. I am perplexed.
posted by TwelveTwo at 5:19 PM on November 26, 2005

We're just tired to work up the sufficent outrage to post anything but chiche'.
posted by Balisong at 5:38 PM on November 26, 2005

The US is a democratic monarchy.
posted by muppetboy at 5:46 PM on November 26, 2005

This seems woefully under-commented to.

What's left to say?
posted by ludwig_van at 5:53 PM on November 26, 2005

when you can be treated as a criminal for doing nothing, it gives you very little reason not to resort to crime. (and by this I mean things that would otherwise be considered treasonous)
posted by CCK at 5:56 PM on November 26, 2005

Best part for them is that if they have evidence you have comitted a crime, they can give you a trial and punish you.
If they have no such evidence.... No sweat. We will just re-classify you, detain and punish you anyway.

They can't lose!
(or is it you can't win?)
No matter, God is on our side
posted by TheFeatheredMullet at 6:02 PM on November 26, 2005

The terrorists hate us because of our freedom.
The less freedom we have, the less they will hate us.
When freedom is history, they'll sell us oil at $3/barrel.
Trust us on this. What's good for General Motors ....
posted by hank at 6:31 PM on November 26, 2005

I for one welcome our new fascist overlords. EWE ESS AY! EWE ESS AY!
posted by davy at 7:18 PM on November 26, 2005

"So this is how democracy dies.... to the sound of cheers and thunderous applause."
-Senator Amidala
posted by Balisong at 7:24 PM on November 26, 2005

Any "regime" that begins justifying torture is spreading terror, not freedom.
posted by sacrilicious at 7:33 PM on November 26, 2005

Meanwhile, Pentagon Expanding Its Domestic Surveillance Activity
posted by homunculus at 7:43 PM on November 26, 2005

... The measure, she said, "removes one of the few existing privacy protections against the creation of secret dossiers on Americans by government intelligence agencies." She said the Pentagon's "intelligence agencies are quietly expanding their domestic presence without any public debate."
...

Absolutely appalling.
posted by amberglow at 8:08 PM on November 26, 2005

The Marine Corps has expanded its domestic intelligence operations and developed internal policies in 2004 to govern oversight of the "collection, retention and dissemination of information concerning U.S. persons," according to a Marine Corps order approved on April 30, 2004.

A year and a half ago. Did I miss the debate when Congress rescinded the Posse Comitatus Act?
posted by swell at 8:36 PM on November 26, 2005

Democratic Veteran mentioned that too, swell: ... OK, wait a fucking minute here...this is the US of A, right? We are supposed to have civilian oversight of military activities unless I misunderstood 9th grade civics. So now the 1600 Crew has succeeded in bringing us one step closer to Grampaw Prescott's carefully supported, chosen government, Nazi Germany. We have laws like Posse Comitatus for a reason, and here we're getting a circumvention by the military being it's own self-propelled judge, jury and executioner against American Citizens. Fuck that. ...
posted by amberglow at 10:44 PM on November 26, 2005

Can we have a new Godwin rule, but replace it with Star Wars instead?
posted by blue_beetle at 10:58 PM on November 26, 2005

We could posit that Star Wars is an allegory of Nazi Germany, and then Star Wars references would auto-Godwin.
posted by ilsa at 11:04 PM on November 26, 2005

George Lucas is worse than Hitler, therefore Star Wars references are worse than Godwining.
posted by mek at 3:01 AM on November 27, 2005

The US is a democratic monarchy.
posted by muppetboy at 5:46 PM PST on November 26 [!]

No, in a democratic monarchy (Britain), MPs just voted against their own party to say that the government shouldn't be able to hold even terrorist subjects for 90 days without trial.
posted by jb at 4:30 AM on November 27, 2005

The only way, and I mean the ONLY way, this ever changes is if by some miracle a Democratic president gets elected in 2008.... and has the stones to "disappear" prominent Republicans into this little system. Boy, that would certainly get some attention to these Constitutional shreddings- if Bush was spirited away to Kosovo on Jan 21st, 2009, I have a feeling the remaining congressional Republicans would howl for some changing of these laws.

However, Diebold is here to ensure THAT never happens!

America's dead, people. Dead. This is not some blue and gold whine or liberal paranoia... we're watching it die as we speak. It won't recover from this before it becomes a complete disaster, because Americans as people are too stupid to really understand what's happening till it's too late- until the actual full-blown, mature fascism rears its ugly head. And then it'll be too late, the system too entrenched.

My only hope is to get enough cash to get the hell out of this shitty country and let it implode on itself, and hope I'm far enough away to not be touched by it. Yeah, like Germany it might get past this after a bloody and violent world war to shut American down, and the American people who survive might even be humbled by it. However, Hitler never had the nukular weapons that Bush and those who follow him will be able to wield when threatened. If America is the Axis of World War III... will there be any survivors?

We are so fucking fucked...
posted by hincandenza at 4:53 AM on November 27, 2005

Godwined AND Star Wars'd. At any rate, the shitshow has begun.
posted by mek at 4:58 AM on November 27, 2005

George Lucas is worse than Hitler, therefore Star Wars references are worse than Godwining.
WTF?!? How anyone has the stones to say anything so mind-boggingly stupid is beyond me.
posted by kaemaril at 7:54 AM on November 27, 2005

From the article: "Indeed, citing the need to combat terrorism, the administration has argued, with varying degrees of success, that judges should have essentially no role in reviewing its decisions."

Well, now it's a battle of wills. You either want the democracy to continue with the checks and balances or you don't. I think it's still fixable. When it becomes an open clash of power, that's when it's truly all gone. (20 years? 10? Less?)
I keep getting more and more political and not wanting to, I just want to keep my house nice, raise my kids, love my wife, but the government just keeps insisting on pushing it further and further. God Damn it this stuff pisses me off. The last thing I want to do is run an insurrection in my old age.
posted by Smedleyman at 8:22 AM on November 27, 2005

personally, i think half you guys couldn't possible disappear fast enough.
posted by keswick at 11:51 AM PST on November 26 [!]

If 1/2 the people were 'disappeared' - how would you get your big mac, electrical power...in short your paycheck?

Tell ya what, lets start with your family...then you.
posted by rough ashlar at 8:38 AM on November 27, 2005

"The best defense against usurpatory government is an assertive citizenry."
William F. Buckley, Jr.
posted by Smedleyman at 9:20 AM on November 27, 2005

Seconded, Smedleyman!

Don't mourn, people. Organize!
posted by halcyon_daze at 10:02 AM on November 27, 2005

.
posted by effwerd at 2:49 PM on November 27, 2005

I'm trying not to sneer now. Following a long a tradition called "the price of liberty is eternal vigilance", I've been warning people about this shit since 1978 -- "You gotta pay attention, they're sneaky, by the time you can't miss it it'll be way too late!" -- and the Mundanes kept telling me I'm a paranoid conspiracy-theory wacko. And sure enough it kept slowly getting worse, until all of a sudden "They" already had enough power usurped to make a big grab at the first TV-worthy excuse, and now people are finally catching on with "Wow, when did this start happening? I never imagined shit like this could happen here! Why didn't somebody see this this coming?"
posted by davy at 6:20 PM on November 27, 2005

will there be any survivors?

We are so fucking fucked...
posted by hincandenza at 7:53 AM EST on November 27 [!]

Godwined AND Star Wars'd. At any rate, the shitshow has begun.
posted by mek at 7:58 AM EST on November 27 [!]

Weblog as conversation. mek, you lose. The whole godwin/star wars sub conversation is just a big shit brake. The innocent people whose lives are being tore up, they're glad a series of science fiction movies is factoring heavily into the debate.

personally, i think half you guys couldn't possible disappear fast enough.

Outstanding keswick. Give yourself a star.

What's left to say? ... We're just tired to work up the sufficent outrage to post anything but chiche'.

Drums work good.
posted by nervousfritz at 7:40 PM on November 27, 2005

Sorry I missed this thread when it went by, but if anyone's still reading.... I, for one, am willing to do my own little part at organizing. I don't like to take the lead on most things, and I have no idea what form it would take... but I feel bestirred to do *something*. Somehow stand up and say this is unacceptable, I dunno. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the type to ever take up arms or anything. But even a simple email list of people who emit snarky t-shirts and bumper stickers would somehow make me feel slightly less powerless, maybe. We could start a website where we could keep track of further assaults on the freedom we (used to) have. Maybe I'm just being a dork, but if anyone else wants to at least start sharing stories and links and sympathetic ears to say how aghast and appalled we are at this and other stuff like this... drop me a line. Email's in my profile.
posted by beth at 3:42 PM on November 28, 2005

What's left to say? ... We're just tired to work up the sufficent outrage to post anything but chiche'.

Drums work good.
posted by nervousfritz at 7:40 PM PST on November 27 [!]

Weblog as conversation.

There, now doesn't that feel silly?
posted by mek at 11:26 AM on November 29, 2005