Comments on: Battle of the Charles

Battle of the Charles

minkll — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:15:43 -0800

Chomsky v. Dershowitz - It's on. via counterpunch

By: ori

ori — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:20:10 -0800

are they going to be streaming this, or what?

By: ZenMasterThis

ZenMasterThis — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:20:38 -0800

Will there be a post-discussion recording available?

By: vkxmai

vkxmai — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:23:27 -0800

I hope there's some sort of streaming of the program available. Is there a Public radio service in that area that might carry the debate?

By: caution live frogs

caution live frogs — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:24:01 -0800

Why isn't Harvard smart enough to NOT use a Javascript-driven tiny popup window for that much friggin' text?

By: solistrato

solistrato — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:25:27 -0800

What's the over/under?

By: leapingsheep

leapingsheep — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:26:16 -0800

!I'll be watching (if they're streaming). If not, I'll try C-Span.

By: allan

allan — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:30:08 -0800

I'll be there tonight. Will be happy to post a review.

By: lodurr

lodurr — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:33:45 -0800

Much as I respect Chomsky and even usually agree with him, he's not exactly someone you pick when you want to deploy an "appeal to authority" ~~fallacy~~ argument, since most Americans who actually know who he is write him off as a friggin' commie egghead. Dersh, otoh, wasn't he one of those guys who got OJ off? Man, he must be smart....

By: j-urb

j-urb — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:36:51 -0800

friggn' Harvard elitists...

By: ori

ori — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:40:32 -0800

allan, please do!

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:41:19 -0800

So - we're linking to calendars now? Please tell me someone's streaming this live, or at least offering a recording afterwards.

By: lodurr

lodurr — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:42:59 -0800

(Actually, I think this is a bold new frontier for metafilter: It isn't best of the web yet, but it's going to be. When it actually happens.)

By: twsf

twsf — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:48:42 -0800

This matchup has about as much appeal - and as much intellectual value - as a WWF match.

By: mrgrimm

mrgrimm — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:57:35 -0800

so ... is this post "noise"? i don't know how to flag it, but the link is kinda worthless on its own. unless there's a stream that i missed... bios of Dershowitz and Chomsky aren't quite post worthy

By: specialk420

specialk420 — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:58:58 -0800

on this topic - Ali Abunimah pretty much nails the opposition to the wall - even if its friendly opposition.

By: mrgrimm

mrgrimm — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 10:58:58 -0800

ah, here's the stream i guess.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:07:00 -0800

"most Americans who actually know who he is write him off as a friggin' commie egghead." posted by lodurr Commie egghead? Mmmm, not so much commie except in the purely perjorative (which I sense you meant). His rep is very anti-American though. Some of his criticism is scathing and possibly misleading because how the hell can you follow someone that goddamn smart and know they're not just handing you bullshit. I'm not saying he's not wrong about everything, but Chomsky is up there with Ramsey Clark right now in terms of percieved "patriot" levels (again - kicking ass for civil rights? Is great, looks great. Defending PLO leaders who shot and dropped overboard an elderly crippled tourist in the hijacking of the Achille Lauro ...bit controversial. ) Again - just perception. Dershowitz.... Hmm... It's P.T. Barnum vs. Brainiac talking about zionism and human rights I'd suspect, unless Dershowitz just tries to disparage anything Chomsky sez. Hmmm...perhaps "The Goblin and the Huckster" is a better analogy. Nifty grudge match. It's been "on" since Israel League for Human Rights thing in the 70s. I wonder who's going to get served!?!

By: tzelig

tzelig — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:14:43 -0800

Brainiac smackdown at Harvard - let us know when they strip down to their undies and start wrestling in pools of jello in the yard.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:15:21 -0800

"This matchup has about as much appeal - and as much intellectual value - as a WWF match. -posted by twsf " The World Wildlife Fund? Man, I'd love to see a Panda take on a Cougar! Seriously, I'd think it depends on how it's moderated. I'm interested. If they're just calling each other names then yeah, it's pro-wrasslin.' I disagree with a variety of perspectives and values both men espouse, but I wouldn't disparage their erudition. And it's timely. Human rights are a big issue now (especially in the U.S.) Dersh is not so much in favor of them as he is for political expediancy. Chomsky's "fuck America in the ass" position seems a bit harsh to me, but he does seem to champion human rights over political considerations. Hopefully it's a nifty debate. *waiting to read it*

By: dhartung

dhartung — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:21:54 -0800

By hosting this, isn't Harvard pretty much endorsing torture?

By: minkll

minkll — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:23:26 -0800

sorry I didn't include the other link, thanks mrgrimm. I read after his debate with Chomsky, Foucault bought a huge bunch of hash that he and his friends dubbed the "Chomsky hash." I'm sure we've all got our issues with both, but it will be interesting for once to (hopefully) see an exchange that doesn't take place in the form of letters going back and forth.

By: rxrfrx

rxrfrx — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:33:42 -0800

How about we shoot both of 'em into the sun?

By: OmieWise

OmieWise — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:54:11 -0800

Hey, is there anything more to this than an announcement of something that has not yet happened? I ask because I love.

By: CRESTA

CRESTA — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 12:01:54 -0800

Nobody yet has pronounced himself to tell us if they going to be streaming this, or what and WHERE!!

By: robocop is bleeding

robocop is bleeding — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 12:04:40 -0800

solistrato writes "What's the over/under?" Thanks. Now I'm picturing which one of these two would be on top in a 70s style porno. That Chomsky, he seems like a cuddler.

By: mrgrimm

mrgrimm — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 12:11:10 -0800

Nobody yet has pronounced himself to tell us if they going to be streaming this, or what and WHERE!! i did. 7pm EST.

By: rkent

rkent — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 12:11:56 -0800

Oh come on, how is AnnouncementFilter any worse than NewsFilter? Wait, NewsFilter is bad?

By: hototogisu

hototogisu — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 12:19:42 -0800

that, mrgrimm, was hard-core.

By: Substrata

Substrata — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 13:36:13 -0800

Chomsky wins

By: darkstar

darkstar — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 15:15:14 -0800

Thanks. Now I'm picturing which one of these two would be on top in a 70s style porno. Aw, JEEZ! How does one jam a fork into one's mind's eye? Chomsky is brilliant, and is incredibly sharp on linguistics. And his grasp of politics is phenomenal. But though he is often insightful, he's come out with enough howlers, fallacies and nonsense that it's impossible to simply respect him, any more, without qualifying it. I find that reading Chomsky is like going on a nature walk in a beautiful jungle, where I happen to also know there are burmese tiger pits somewhere out there. I'm certain that, though it may be tough going sometimes, I am going to see some wonderful things, but I'll have to be ever vigilant to avoid those urine-soaked spikes.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:02:21 -0800

Hm, I guess I should have popped in for the stream a little earlier, seeing as how it's now inundated.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:12:12 -0800

Did you order a pizza? *70's base riff*

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:13:03 -0800

I'm here to fix the plumbing, ma'am. *70's base riff*

By: hank

hank — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:32:37 -0800

The server at www.iop.harvard.edu is taking too long to respond. Still.

By: eustatic

eustatic — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:36:58 -0800

i got it. they both had ten minute statements, now the floor is open.

By: eustatic

eustatic — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 16:42:41 -0800

people have twice chuckled at dershowitz, but i don't know why.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:00:03 -0800

Q&A is the best. Has the guy even read Manufacturing Consent? It seems anyone who argues against Chomsky always runs up against the "Well WHY would the news not report it? Huh Mr. Chomsky? Why?" Well - his book explains it.

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:01:38 -0800

Even though it's always besides the point; the press doesn't report it. Deal with it.

By: mrgrimm

mrgrimm — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:05:35 -0800

not only could i not connect, it damn near crashed my browser.

By: eustatic

eustatic — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:12:16 -0800

chomsky quotes and dershowitz namedrops, and everyone is pissy

By: Chuckles

Chuckles — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:34:18 -0800

Chomsky quotes, Dershowitz namedrops, yells, derides, and generally makes a fool of himself - not because of his positions, but because of his attitude.

By: specialk420

specialk420 — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:51:47 -0800

dershowitz looked like he went to the george w. bush school of debate: yell and scream and get pissed to try to make your point - he looked like a moron. the "why wasn't it reported?" question confirmed that he is. chomsky wins... too bad it most likely wont help so many palestinians. for those interested in the conflict and its effect on children - "a death in gaza" is required viewing.

By: eustatic

eustatic — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 18:35:32 -0800

nobody seems to be disagreeing? but everyone is accusatory of the other side. i'm so confused. dershowitz is arguing for a contiguous Palestine (keeps showing the map, talking about a highway from west bank to the gaza), blames failure of some agreement reached at Tabbah (sp) and the election of Sharon on Arafat's rejection of the agreement (I'm confused). He painted a picture of the past negotiations in which the palestinians were responsible for passing up the agreements. He spent most of his time repeatedly attacking chomsky for being "on planet chomsky." He accuses chomsky of bad faith, i guess. Accused chomsky of racist language. Accuses chomsky of not having a positive future vision. accuses chomsky of saying a lot of unconstructive things, many of which chomsky says he didn't say, and of course chomsky says that there's proof somewhere that chomsky said the things that chomsky says he said, and not what dershowitz says he said. (Oy!) chomsky is arguing against "the Bantustan" plan, the status quo, and for following up on the Tabbah agreements, which he considers the one and only 'break in US-Israeli rejectionism" (are these the same agreement we're talking?), a two-state solution which he claims to have supported, in print. Claims that what dershowitz is supporting is an american plan, and therefore supporting it is less relevant than criticizing US economic / political / military aid to israel and criticising the israeli plan itself, which includes the big wall and separate and unequal infrastructure/water rights for palestinians and israelis inside the west bank, which would be continually occupied, i suppose. they def. disagree on Peres as "a man of peace." Chomsky referred to a exec. director of the Peres peace center for quotes supporting his position, but called Peres himself bad names; Dershowitz saw this as contradictory. no one discussed Jeff Halper's (ICAHD) idea of a "confederational approach," a kind of regional trade agreement option, given a 'two-state' solution, between Israel, a contiguous Palestine, Jordan, and Lebanon, etc., to support everyone's (esp. a fledging Palestine's) economy, while keeping the "Jewish state" intact from the "population bomb." This was disappointing, as I think Jeff Halper's ideas are the most new, and the most exciting for me anyways, i haven't read all the things that the debate was about. Too much of the talk was about the past though, and too much of it was about just attacking chomsky personally, and i think it made him cranky. blech. oh yeah, i signed in @6:58 est on a windows xp machine running firefox 1.0.6 and realalternative.

By: allan

allan — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 19:05:35 -0800

Stylistically, Dershowitz was an eloquent Lionel Hutz to Chomsky's smug prof. Dershowitz had a few really cheap shots (expecting a roomful of educated liberal-leaning young folk to think the media automatically does it's job is silly) and did not behave. Chomsky, for his part, actively evaded 3 of less than a dozen questions posed to him. Why can't the founder of linguistics parse a question? It was pretty inexcusable. Too much of the debate was spent on fact-niggling. The organizers should have 1) asked for 5 maps from each in advance and loaded them on a screen and 2) used the moderator to unilaterally decide when a factual issue was resolvable, framed the question to be answered and let the 2 parties answer it with citations on their website. The strongest point against Chomsky was that he said very little in terms of substantive policy, other than Israel had done lots of bad things. Dershowitz did not excuse this, but argued that few other nations have been in similar situations and dealt with them as well. Attempts to corner him into an exact proposal brought out his "bantustans" arguement and the absurd rejoinder that if continuity isn't critical, let's break up Israel. Dershowitz, for his part, failed to respond to Israel's more recent behavior of settler expansion and why the international community's fairly unanimous siding with the Palestinians can be casually ignored. He takStylistically, Dershowitz was an eloquent Lionel Hutz to Chomsky's smug prof. Dershowitz had a few really cheap shots (expecting a roomful of educated liberal-leaning young folk to think the media automatically does it's job is silly) and did not behave. Chomsky, for his part, actively evaded 3 of less than a dozen questions posed to him. Why can't the founder of linguistics parse a question? It was pretty inexcusable. Too much of the debate was spent on fact-niggling. The organizers should have 1) asked for 5 maps from each in advance and loaded them on a screen and 2) used the moderator to unilaterally decide when a factual issue was resolvable, framed the question to be answered and let the 2 parties answer it with citations on their website. The strongest point against Chomsky was that he said very little in terms of substantive policy, other than Israel had done lots of bad things. Dershowitz did not excuse this, but argued that few other nations have been in similar situations and dealt with them as well. Attempts to corner him into an exact proposal brought out his "bantustans" argument and the absurd rejoinder that if continuity isn't critical, let's break up Israel. Dershowitz, for his part, failed to respond to Israel's more recent behavior of settler expansion and why the international community's fairly unanimous siding with the Palestinians can be casually ignored. He take a somewhat moderate line on condemning certain behavior, such as home demolition, but pretty much ignored Chomsky's claim that no one is Israel took the 2-state solution seriously until the 2nd Intifada. The crowd was a fair blend, and clapped in a partisan fashion but was relatively well behaved. It was an interesting, if not terribly productive debate. e a somewhat moderate line on condemning certain behavior, such as home demolition, but pretty much ignored Chomsky's claim that no one is israel took the 2-state solution seriously until the 2nd Intifada. The crowd was a fair blend, and clapped in a partisan fashion but was relatively well behaved. It was interesting, if not terribly productive debate.

By: eustatic

eustatic — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 19:38:38 -0800

you're skipping, allan--clean the needle!

By: darkstar

darkstar — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 19:52:45 -0800

Chomsky wasn't the founder of linguistics as a modern field of scientific study. Most folks would attribute that to Saussure, I think, if they were to pick only one person. /pedantry

By: jmgorman

jmgorman — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:04:36 -0800

Does anyone have a saved copy of this? I can't find one on the internets yet and had to sit through class during the stream. (thanks for the break down allan, I'm looking forward to seeing/hearing this)

By: ori

ori — Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:58:53 -0800

what jmgorman said. i had to be in class. i will seed if anyone puts a torrent up.

By: jmgorman

jmgorman — Wed, 30 Nov 2005 07:31:31 -0800

yeah, I can seed too.

By: rottytooth

rottytooth — Wed, 30 Nov 2005 10:25:53 -0800

The video's up now on their archive page

By: leapingsheep

leapingsheep — Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:44:29 -0800

Thanks, rottytooth.

By: eustatic

eustatic — Fri, 02 Dec 2005 08:00:26 -0800

Naturally, a torrent can be found at chomskytorrents.org