Comments on: Zwarte Pieten

Zwarte Pieten

bigmike — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 13:58:06 -0800

It's that time of year again: Dutch people dressing in blackface.

By: mr_roboto

mr_roboto — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 14:02:12 -0800

Sedaris on Sinterklaas. (PDF)

By: JeffK

JeffK — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 14:07:53 -0800

Schvartze Claus?

By: mk1gti

mk1gti — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 14:11:14 -0800

It's the bloody Dutch! Why do they smell like cabbage and brussels sprouts?

By: amberglow

amberglow — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 14:13:52 -0800

like blackface jesus?

By: Falconetti

Falconetti — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 14:14:58 -0800

Ugh. What do the more informed Dutch say about this practice? Are there lots of Nederlanders who think zwarte pieten is racist or do most people defend it?

By: vkxmai

vkxmai — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 14:16:05 -0800

David Sedaris is always apropos. Thanks mr_roboto!

By: mhum

mhum — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 14:17:35 -0800

And here David Sedaris reading an abridged version of the piece in mr_roboto's link on the NPR radio show, This American Life (Sedaris starts in at about the 25:30 mark).

By: ZenMasterThis

ZenMasterThis — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 14:20:28 -0800

Don't forget the Belgians.

By: Staggering Jack

Staggering Jack — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 14:22:50 -0800

Thanks for the Sedaris links. Here's the wikipedia entry on Zwarte Piet for more background.

By: mr_roboto

mr_roboto — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 14:32:43 -0800

Ugh. I think that article is an example of why people have been slagging on the Wikipedia lately, Staggering Jack. The writing is awful, and the article overall is pretty incoherent.

By: jouke

jouke — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 14:34:10 -0800

Nice story by Sedaris. We're always flattered when the world notices us. Falconetti: the short answer is; there's not Sinterklaas without Zwarte Piet. And altogether people are too attached to the whole festivity to scrap it as a whole. Of course it could not be maintained the way it was at the start of the previous century; there was an element of the 'darkie' thing in it at that time. So the interpretations have been changed: zwarte piet has all the funny lines and it really is a sweet childrens party. And that's a good thing. Personally I've never found anything degrading in the whole festivity. It's just too absurd too have any correlation with real life. But then I'm not black.

By: Malor

Malor — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 14:34:55 -0800

From a cusory overview, without doing any digging about the nature of the character, it would appear that getting upset is the racist part, not the dressing up. We don't get uptight at people in Santa Claus costumes. We don't get mad at them for dressing up as a pirate with black hair. So what's the big deal about painting one's skin black to emulate a different fictional character? The fact that we SEE it as being a big deal probably says more about us than it does about them. Am I missing something here?

By: mr_roboto

mr_roboto — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 14:36:52 -0800

There's an ugle, racist history of blackface as entertainment in the United States, Malor. I'm guessing it's mostly Americans who react to this so viscerally.

By: Staggering Jack

Staggering Jack — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 14:39:57 -0800

Yeah, I agree on wikipedia, mr_roboto. I didn't know anything about this custom and was curious to read up on Falconetti's question. The "present and future" section satisfactorily answered my desire for a two minute Internet education.

By: phrontist

phrontist — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 14:54:59 -0800

I see no problem with this, but then again, I am eating delicious Belgian candy out of my shoe. In all seriousness though, there used to be a racist element in this, but things change... Christmas or "Annual Gift Day" used to be associated with a loopy doomsday cult.

By: phrontist

phrontist — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 14:56:13 -0800

I wonder how black Belgians/Dutch feel about this... surely there are some out there on MeFi...

By: Substrata

Substrata — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 15:06:32 -0800

i'm black but i was an Assistant-Sinterklaas (not the real Sint, one of his non-Zwarte-Piet helpers) this year, and many times before. ow come on guys, america is really racist, holland starts to get rather racist again too, but not on this particular issue.

By: LarryC

LarryC — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 15:12:11 -0800

The mind reels! Great post.

By: Falconetti

Falconetti — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 15:13:56 -0800

I just read the Wikipedia article and I have to agree it was atrociously written (with lots of these parentheticals!). If Wiki is true, then Black Peter's depiction comes directly from carucatures of Arficans. It may be because I am American and see this through the lens of our particular history, but it rubs me the wrong way regardless of the varying justifications, most particularly the oversized red lips and afros. In Cleveland, where I grew up, we had an awful caricture of an Indian as our baseball team logo, but I still went to the games and enjoyed myself, so I can partially understand the disjunct.

By: Falconetti

Falconetti — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 15:18:19 -0800

"carucatures" and "caricture" = "caricature"

By: Malor

Malor — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 15:22:26 -0800

mr_roboto...yes, I know about that.... but I think that supports my point, rather than detracting from it. The problem here would seem to be OURS, not THEIRS.

By: Baby_Balrog

Baby_Balrog — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 15:53:17 -0800

Malor, I disagree with you. The character is comedic in nature, and the implication is that black people are naturally humorous - or worthy of ridicule. This is why blackface is disgusting. But then, I don't find racism humorous. I'm Jewish, and I think it's inappropriate when people make fun of Jews for having big noses or bushy eyebrows or an unnatural preoccupation with capitalism, but I just saw that image on tv so maybe I shouldn't act so offended and just sit down and quit complaining.

By: dhartung

dhartung — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 16:09:00 -0800

Wikipedia: Guide to Improving Articles Nobody's stopping you.

By: ceri richard

ceri richard — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 16:31:19 -0800

Also of interest, the Zwarte Piet thread, December 5 2004.

By: goodnewsfortheinsane

goodnewsfortheinsane — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 16:58:32 -0800

IMO, Falconetti has it, including a non-absurd US analogy. And what Substrata said. I don't have any particular strong feelings about this, but it's mainly a non-issue to the Dutch; however, I think indoctrination of youngsters into believing in an immortal, mysterious benefactor that will give them presents if they've been good, or tow them back to Spain in a sack instead is a much larger crime - don't get me started. Or was I talking about organised religion just there?

By: Joseph Gurl

Joseph Gurl — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 17:21:00 -0800

You guys heard about the Bubble Sisters, right? A popular singing group a coupla years ago in S. Corea who performed in blackface & afro wigs? On TV all the time? Man, as an American, when I saw that I was just waiting for the other shit to start flying.

By: easternblot

easternblot — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 17:35:30 -0800

I am Dutch, although I'm not living in Holland at the moment, so my view is about 4 years outdated. I never considered the Zwarte Pieten to actually represent black people, not as a kid, and not as an adult. They were always sort of like clowns to me: clowns are always painted white, Zwarte Pieten are always painted black. They also wear clownish clothes, and they do summer saults and are cheery and crazy and silly and fun. Another thing is that a lot of kids tend to believe that the Pieten are black from soot, from climbing down chimneys. I think the parents help that story along a bit. Because come on, nobody's skin is THAT black naturally. On these sites (in Dutch), where kids asked why the Zwarte Pieten are black, the explanation given is that they originate from the Moors, which is why they're black. It is a leftover thing from slavery, but this subject isn't as sensitive in Holland as it is in North America. Everyone just accepts that slavery is a thing of the past, not of today, and the Pieten still look black, but it doesn't have anything to do with slavery anymore AT ALL. The current day Pieten are several generations past being slaves. But I just had to actively think about this, because really, its NEVER an issue. Whenever people do make it an issue, and come up with purple or yellow Pieten, they're always ridiculed. It would be like protesting that Santa Claus is clearly overweight, setting an unhealthy example with his milk and cookie habit, and start introducing a fitter Santa who only drinks water and eats celery. And have him get rid of those poor reindeer. FREE RUDOLPH! That wouldn't catch on at all either. Santa Claus is fat, Zwarte Pieten are black. But now, at least Sinterklaas bring his Pieten with him when he comes bringing gifts. Santa's elves have to slave away at the freezing North Pole even at Christmas time!

By: Decani

Decani — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 17:54:41 -0800

The character is comedic in nature, and the implication is that black people are naturally humorous - or worthy of ridicule. That's your interpretation, is it? Interesting insight into your nature, that. And do you have a problem with whiteface clowns? Do they denigrate white people? Do they imply white people are naturally humourous or worthy of ridicule? Christ, God forbid there should ever, EVER be black clowns or fabled characters or caricatures, eh?Where would be then? Oh yeah... a bit closer to real equality. I'm glad someone linked to the Zwarte Piet info. Saved me the trouble.

By: Decani

Decani — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 17:57:44 -0800

Also, care to get all righteous and outraged about this? I mean, apart from the fact that it's a shite film.

By: drmarcj

drmarcj — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 18:25:34 -0800

OK, sure, but can anyone explain the incredibly salty candy? *retch*

By: zardoz

zardoz — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 18:30:47 -0800

Decani, I raise you one more. Seriously, though, it would be genuinely offensive in the States, but simply isn't in The Netherlands. I agree it's all about interpretation.

By: bunglin jones

bunglin jones — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 18:37:42 -0800

How do they say "You're My Wife now, Dave" in Dutch?

By: deanc

deanc — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 18:54:29 -0800

Along with the well-known The Zwarte Piet Revolution, see also: "Sinterklaas is going to arrive and pass out black men to all the black women who've been so good this year"

By: stbalbach

stbalbach — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 19:04:19 -0800

Newburyport, Mass has black face jazz singers during their sumertime outdoor concerts. I suspect it's not uncommon throughout New England.

By: Baby_Balrog

Baby_Balrog — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 19:20:49 -0800

White-face clowns aren't white-face in order to purposely denigrate and ridicule white people. Black face exists because people are entertained by a farcical negro, dancing around on stage and acting like a buffoon, to entertain them. It is racism. That's your interpretation, is it? Yes. I suppose it is. Interesting insight into your nature, that. You are stating that it is in my nature to be disgusted by blatant racism on stage? I'm not sure I follow you. Defend blackface all you want. I'll never see it as an appropriate form of comedy. And I would encourage you to read the above linked article. Unlike the earlier wikipedia reference, I find it well-informed and applicable to the U.S. and abroad. It summarizes the issue.

By: booksandlibretti

booksandlibretti — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 20:04:42 -0800

Newburyport, Mass has black face jazz singers during their sumertime outdoor concerts. I suspect it's not uncommon throughout New England. Uh, whoa now. That's kind of a sweeping generalization. I know that I've never heard of anything like that in my part of New England -- and I think I would've.

By: puke & cry

puke & cry — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 20:08:43 -0800

Baby_Balrog: from you're blackface link: Blackface is a style of theatrical makeup that originated in the United States used to affect the countenance of an iconic, racist, American archetype, that of the "darky" or "coon". That doesn't apply at all in this case. Totally your interpretation.

By: blag

blag — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 21:18:32 -0800

phrontist writes 'I see no problem with this, but then again, I am eating delicious Belgian candy out of my shoe.' Bastard. All I got was twigs.

By: Falconetti

Falconetti — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 21:59:18 -0800

dhartung- I am not going to help fix the Wikipedia article because I know fuck all about Black Peter. Or are you suggesting that people that know nothing about the topic should feel free to contribute to Wikipedia articles? Also, if Black Peter is just a clown with black instead of white, then why do they have Jheri curls and oversized red lips?

By: booksandlibretti

booksandlibretti — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 22:05:17 -0800

White clowns are also known for their oversized red lips. Admittedly, they don't have Jheri curls, but they do have rainbow-striped Afros.

By: Pinback

Pinback — Tue, 06 Dec 2005 22:06:36 -0800

bunglin jones, I got some pegs belonging to you. This is just a saga now...

By: goodnewsfortheinsane

goodnewsfortheinsane — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 05:14:55 -0800

[...] I would encourage you to read the above linked article. [...] I find it well-informed and applicable to the U.S. and abroad. I'm going to have to take issue with that. I enjoyed reading that article Baby_Balrog, thanks for the link - who knew that there were at least three Wikipedia articles relating to Zwarte Piet? - but your personal characterisation of the phenomenon does not resonate with me, a lifetime Dutch resident, at all. For starters, I feel the part about Zwarte Piet in the blackface article is not in agreement with Wikipedia NPOV policy. I'm a fan of WP, but it must be said that no assessment of a WP article is complete without also reading the discussion page, where both POVs are defended from Dutch and American contributors, a noteworthy parallel with the discussion going on right here. Moreover, the article's sidebar states that it is part of "African-American topics", and it is categorised (see footer) under "African-American history | African American culture | Stereotypes | Theatre characters | Blackface minstrelsy". Don't get me wrong, I think integrating the topic of Zwarte Piet into this article as a "modern-day manifestation" of the blackface phenomenon was a good move, but I can't be alone in thinking that perhaps the aforementioned factors contribute to the topic being handled with some kind of American and/or negative bias from the outset. Look, I think I can see where you're coming from, but that's quite literally my point: I feel I know enough about American history and culture to understand and agree why this cultural oddity would be considered highly and directly offensive in the modern-day US, and in fact impossible to sustain. But to us it's just that, a cultural oddity. I can't say where the historical divergence in what is and isn't tolerable stems from exactly: I mean, we have a history of colonial oppression and slavery, too. Perhaps the fact that Holland's population was up til not so long ago largely homogeneous (i.e. Caucasian), as has been mentioned, helped facilitate and perpetuate the Zwarte Piet phenomenon, but coming into my cultural filter it seems that any sincere offense taken at it just feels like tilting at windmills. I'm trying to take you seriously here, Baby_Balrog. I can't speak for the Dutch people at large, but to me personally at least the issue is so devoid of any political or ethnic charge that it becomes a non-issue. So yes, it is that time of year again: Dutch people ~~dressing in~~ defending people in blackface.

By: goodnewsfortheinsane

goodnewsfortheinsane — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 05:15:28 -0800

Substrata, eaternblot and others, thanks for your perspectives, and feel free to chime in.

By: goodnewsfortheinsane

goodnewsfortheinsane — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 05:15:40 -0800

easternblot

By: bigmike

bigmike — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 05:56:28 -0800

As an American (born and raised in Georgia, no less) who has just spent his first Sinterklaas day in the Netherlands, I've had a bit of trouble figuring out what to think of it. I was interested in (and got) the intelligent discussion that I've come to expect from MetaFilter dicussions. I didn't know (and didn't bother to find out) that a similar discussion had taken place last year, but it seems there was enough interest to retro-justify my post. An interesting story that I've heard was from a friend who spoke to a Jamaican woman living here in Amsterdam. She was bitter about the whole thing, keeping her kids home from school on the day that the Zwarte Pieten came to visit. Apparently, she went so far as to refer to the Surinamese (the darkest, most abundant ethnic group that has had a lasting presence in the Netherlands) as 'pussies' for putting up with Zwarte Piet all this time and allowing it to continue to an uncontrollable point. That comment seemed to me much more actively rascist than anything I've ever heard a Dutch person say. Thanks for your insight, gang.

By: easternblot

easternblot — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 07:30:16 -0800

Something else to me this morning, and I had to look it up to be sure, but Sinterklaas AND his Zwarte Pieten also visit the children of the Netherlands Antilles (at least those in Curacao, I didn't have time to look up the other islands) where the population is predominantly black. Can't find an English link, but here's a photo album with photos taken at a school on Curacao. (Notice that they painted Sinterklaas white!) Also, a little addition/explanation to something from my previous comment, which I took for granted but which half of you probably misunderstood: Where I said "On these sites (in Dutch), where kids asked why the Zwarte Pieten are black" I should probably have added that these children are not implying anything about race. They're asking "why are they black and not blue or yellow or purple? and not "why are they black and not white?" And goodnews, good points.

By: cgs

cgs — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 08:15:54 -0800

is there any real debate that the Zwarte Pieten black face represents chimney soot and not African features? this all sounds like defensive rationalization. one day it will change and your kids will scratch their heads over it...

By: easternblot

easternblot — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 08:31:42 -0800

one day it will change and your kids will scratch their heads over it... It'll be an extinct holiday by then. Christmas is gaining popularity over St Nicholas. Celebrating both is a bit too much strain on the wallets and sanity, with the holidays being less than 3 weeks apart. On top of that, the very popular TV screening of St Nicholas' arrival in the country has had the same actors for years, which makes it fun, but that too will change (maybe it already has, I'm kind of out of the loop) and it might not be as good anymore. I don't think the next generation of kids will still be confronted with this as much, and they won't bother to worry about it.

By: caution live frogs

caution live frogs — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 10:37:23 -0800

Falconetti wrote: "I am not going to help fix the Wikipedia article because I know fuck all about Black Peter. Or are you suggesting that people that know nothing about the topic should feel free to contribute to Wikipedia articles?" You don't need to know anything about the subject if all you are doing is proofreading for readability. It does of course help to know about the content, to avoid inadvertantly changing something important, but from what I saw the main problem in the writing was the basic sentence structure. Anyone with moderately good English writing skills should be able to clean up the excessive use of parentheses. I've edited bits of articles I knew little about before (mostly correcting links or obvious misspellings). It doesn't take long if you're so inclined.

By: Decani

Decani — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 13:46:46 -0800

Defend blackface all you want. I'll never see it as an appropriate form of comedy. Woah. Killer argument there, dude.

By: davar

davar — Wed, 07 Dec 2005 16:04:30 -0800

I am Dutch, and I was going to respond, but easternblot said it much better than I could (I apologize for my bad english, compared to that of the other dutch members in this thread). I have indeed always believed that zwarte piet was black because of the chimney. That was totally not an issue among anybody when I grew up. There were no racial connotations at all. However, now that I am a parent, I do feel a bit uncomfortable about the whole thing . When my two-year-old saw a little black girl with a hat she was enthusiastic, and said to me: "look, a little black peter!". Like the other dutch posters here said, nobody in the Netherlands seems to care. People who introduced a Purple Peter and a Yellow Peter were indeed ridiculed, but that is not because people think racial issues are not important, it is because people do not see it as a racial issue at all. As an aside: I do not know any parents who scare their children with the sack to Spain anymore. I think Zwarte Piet is nice nowadays (he has lots of candy! and presents!). This was my first Sinterklaas with children, and I think children in general were more afraid of Sinterklaas than of Zwarte Piet. goodnewsfortheinsane: we have a history of colonial oppression and slavery too. But we do not talk about that. Did you ever learn in school about what we did to the Indonesians, only years ago? We even celebrated 400 years VOC, like it was one big happy anniversary. I now start to wonder if all those things are related. We so so so want to have a country were there is no racial tension, that we just pretend everything is well, and that we are a great example for the rest of the world.

By: tyro urge

tyro urge — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 07:41:57 -0800

Personally, I'm leaning more toward what gsb said: a lot of this sounds like a kind of rationalization that's fairly common elsewhere. It's easy to say "it doesn't really matter" when you're not the target of constant ridicule (yeah yeah, "chimney soot" and "clown makeup": davar's child didn't seem to see it that way.) It's a precarious position: ask for minor concessions, as Falconetti mentioned with his Cleveland Indians example, and you get upbraided for cavilling and "tilting at windmills," but asking for your land back doesn't get much of a response either. And should you get so frustrated as to castigate your fellow sufferers for their inaction, well, that makes you racist-- more racist than the original act that infuriates you, apparently. What's it like to dictate to the vanquished what they should and should not care about? It must be nice. Sorry. I'm not trying to call anyone out or start an argument in a dead thread: the intractability of the whole deal is just annoying, that's all. It's like there's a perspective gap in situations like this that refuses to be filled in no matter what gets said. The whole thing reminds me of James Baldwin's Stranger in the Village for some reason. Heh. Interesting post. I'd seen earlier ones, but this one had more input from people on the scene.