NAACP leader criticizes black NFL star
December 15, 2005 11:18 PM   Subscribe

"The NAACP has many civil rights issues that require our attention. Criticizing Donovan McNabb is not one of them" That's the response of Bruce Gordon, CEO of the NAACP responds to an ignorant and racist column written by Whyatt Mondesire, president of the NAACP's Philadelphia chapter, in the Philadelphia Sun. Two years ago Rush Limbaugh lost his ESPN gig for making racist comments about McNabb. Will Mondesire have to pay a price for remarks that are even more offensive and racially loaded?
posted by b_thinky (97 comments total)
 
eeeehhhhh, bad intro. Sorry.
posted by b_thinky at 11:19 PM on December 15, 2005


Bruce Gordon, who heads the Baltimore-based National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, issued a statement calling McNabb "a great quarterback, an excellent role model and a class act" and said he intended to apologize for denigrating remarks made by Philadelphia chapter president J. Whyatt Mondesire.

Obviously, Mr. Gordon has not seen Donovan McNabb play.
posted by three blind mice at 11:32 PM on December 15, 2005


"Come on, man. I had a rough night and I hate the fuckin'
Eagles, man!"
posted by tweak at 11:38 PM on December 15, 2005


3 blind mice: I hope you meant it's Mondesire (the guy with the insults) and not Gordon who hasn't seen McNabb play. Anyone who watches the NFL over the past 5 years would consider McNabb one of the top 5 QBs in the league.

But the question isn't ability. People can criticize play all they want. But why does a guy like Mondesire, who is supposedly against racism (particularly against blacks) have to use McNabb's race to degrade him?
posted by b_thinky at 11:50 PM on December 15, 2005


How did that article from Whyatt Mondesire even get published? Even in an op-ed section you'd think the newspaper editors would fix all the obvious grammar & punctuation mistakes. Damn, that was bad.

That aside:
"If you talk about my play, that's one thing," McNabb said. "When you talk about my race, now we've got problems."

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't McNabb pull the race card first? That's what I'm seeing after reading the articles.
posted by starscream at 11:55 PM on December 15, 2005


Can somebody please cut and paste the "racist, ignorant" comments here? With some commentary as to why they are racist and ignorant?

I am incapable of parsing sports commentary, so please help me out.
posted by rockabilly_pete at 12:00 AM on December 16, 2005


Seems like more hype than anything. Mondesire, acting as a sports columnist rather than NAACP representative, criticizes McNabb's play and suggests that the reason for McNabb's decline is some sort of paranoia of race stereotyping that has prompted him to intentionally alter the way he plays (by not QB scrambling).

I don't know the background on McNabb and whether his style has changed or whether he originally was stereotyped, but it doesn't seem like Mondesire's claim is absurd or racist. He's really just saying "play the style you're best at and ignore the race stuff." Although, admittedly, with a less encouraging tone.
posted by Wingy at 12:02 AM on December 16, 2005


Another question, wouldn't any head of the NAACP be black? And if so, why can't he call on this McNabb on pulling a race card?

Honest questions, I don't understand this racist stuff that well. Nor the NFL ;)
posted by starscream at 12:03 AM on December 16, 2005


To be fair, once you get past the McNabb stuff, Mondesire's editorial is not all that factually objectionable. The QB position is still racially problematic, to this day.

I don't agree with Mondesire's argument about McNabb; McNabb is a mediocre player for other reasons unrelated to skin color — but for decades the QB position has been a whites-only job, and still is for the most part.
posted by Rothko at 12:24 AM on December 16, 2005


Anyone who watches the NFL over the past 5 years would consider McNabb one of the top 5 QBs in the league.

Yeah, when he's healthy. (I am an Eagles fan.)
posted by Fat Guy at 12:29 AM on December 16, 2005


Historically, QBs are supposed to calmly stand and find a receiver to deliver the ball to all the while being rushed by the defense. If nobody is open, they get sacked for a big loss or throw an incomplete pass.

A QB with the ability to run the ball can deliver positive yardage when nobody is open. But if you run too much (QBs who can run have a tendancy to look to run first) the offense can suffer and the individual player risks fatigue and injury - the hardest collisions take place when opposing forces are both headed towards each other.

Black QBs are sterotyped as being able to run although the greatest running QBs of all time (Fran Tarkenton, Steve Young, Brett Favre, John Elway) were all white.

McNabb has the ability to run but he's a far better passer. His rushing yardage has dropped each year of his career. Not coincidentally, the team improved each year (except this year, because the whole team is wiped out from injuries and infighting).

It baffles me when people say McNabb is mediocre. He's led his team deep in the playoffs almost every year, despite having almost no talent on offense. The one year they bring in a decent receiver (Terrell Owens) he gets even better. The coach refuses to install any hint of a running game, which puts even more pressure on McNabb.
posted by b_thinky at 12:52 AM on December 16, 2005


I didn't think that he came off in the article as particularly racist.

But he does sound like an armchair quarterback heckler, quick to deride and whine with little positive to say.

So what's his Metafilter handle?
posted by Dag Maggot at 1:07 AM on December 16, 2005


I don't remember the Philadelphia Sun from when I lived in Philly. Is that even a real publication?
posted by ph00dz at 3:57 AM on December 16, 2005


I agree with Dag Maggot, I don't particularly see the racist comments in there. I do see some ridiculously bad football commentary:

Finally, your failure as a team leader off the field to my mind did as much as anything to exacerbate the debacle that has become synonymous with T.O.'s full name.

What? Where did that come from? How is he not a good team leader off the field? Oh, I see:

Just think how the whole media circus could have been avoided had you had the courage to offer only a tiny fraction of your bonus this year to Owens and running back, Brian Westbrook.

WTF? He wants McNabb to give up some of his OWN salary to satisfy whiny players on the team who decide that they don't like the contracts they've been given? That's not called "being a leader off the field" - that's called "being a big chump". Then he pulls out Tom Brady. Yes, Brady's a great QB, who has had some great teams, but I don't recall Brady giving off chunks of his salary to other teammates (someone correct me if I'm wrong).
posted by antifuse at 4:07 AM on December 16, 2005


You know, if I was writing a news article about a guy who has been accused of racism, I would expect readers to be carefully scanning every word in the article for possibly offensive language, I would recall the "niggardly" flap, and I would try to come up with a word other than "denigrating" ("blackening" in the "making something or someone look bad" sense) to describe Mondesire's remarks.
posted by pracowity at 4:39 AM on December 16, 2005


responds to an ignorant and racist column

b_thinky, you've been asked to explain a couple of times where the "racist" part of Mondesire's column is. Since you don't say what it was about your own post that was a "bad intro" (hint: it's more than your bad editing), you need to put up or shut up on the claim that Mondesire's comments are "even more offensive and racially loaded" than Rush's were.
posted by mediareport at 4:54 AM on December 16, 2005


Ok, from what I get from it all, I think that what Mondesire is saying is that McNabb should scramble more and that McNabb is essentially playing the race card when he responds to questions about why he doesn't scramble more by saying that "black quarterbacks are expected to scramble and I don't have to live up to that."

Having said that, this white person would guess that it has more to do with Terrell Owens than McNabb. A lot of the confused subtext is about how McNabb and T.O. interacted and how McNabb sided with the team in the subsequent dispute. That may have angered people who think that the race situation is still dire enough in this country that one has to reflexively support one's own community. Just a guess however. Do any MeFites from Philly's African-American community have any insight on this?
posted by Ironmouth at 4:59 AM on December 16, 2005


for decades the QB position has been a whites-only job, and still is for the most part.

You are right from a historical standpoint, but you are overstating the current problem. There are at least six entrenched starting black QBs in the league today: McNabb, Culpepper, Leftwich, McNair, Vick, Brooks. That's still less than the overall percentage of black players in the league, but it's clearly not a "whites-only" job.
posted by brain_drain at 5:12 AM on December 16, 2005


To be fair Brooks is done as a starting QB. Although numbers-wise he'll probably be replaced by Vince Young, the Ninja from the Future.

I find the McNabb situation very confusing. He's an excellent QB and AFAIK a pretty good guy. He seems to get passive-aggressive flack from racists on both sides for not living up to their stereotypes (not hip-hop enough for the Limbaugh crowd to sneer at and too comfortable with the white NFL establishment to be well liked on the other side). I feel bad for the guy, and not just because he has a "sports hernia" (ouch).

As for the column... football fans can be real assholes when their team is losing. The only difference here is that someone who is supposed to be a representative of the community should really know better.
posted by selfnoise at 5:36 AM on December 16, 2005


From the Philidelphia Sun, J. Whyatt Mondesire, publisher/editor:

Mission of The Philadelphia Sunday Sun

The goal of The Philadelphia Sunday Sun, is to build and promote a quality organized newspaper that allows African Americans to easily and efficiently find business, community, education, government and religious organization information, and all the weekly news.

posted by Pollomacho at 5:51 AM on December 16, 2005


intriguing.

Not the column -- that's standard sportswriter fare. W.r.t. McNabb's abilities: Agree with it, or don't; take it or leave it; that's what you do with sportswriters. Any quarterback in a slump would get the same treatment. Happens all over America from August through January. Is it fair? No, of course not; Mondesire makes an unqualified hero out of Doug Williams while conveniently forgetting to mention all those losing seasons with Tampa, when peopel ranked on Williams for "throwing too hard." (Yes, his receivers sucked. Let's move along.)

Part of the subtext of Mondesire's column is that Football has traditionally regarded itself as being Above The Race Issue. This is consistent with the football aesthetic; Modesire is talking like a football fan, not a civil rights leader.

What's intriguing to me is that this is a controversy. Mondesire is making a criticism that's consistent with the NFL ethos: McNabb is doing a bad thing if he brings up race, according to the ethical aesthetics of NFL football. Limbaugh was also doing a bad thing. Criticizing McNabb is consistent with criticizing Limbaugh. Criticizing Mondesire is not consistent with criticizing Limbaugh.

To put this in MeFi terms, Mondesire is doing a call out on McNabb, hte way everyone did a call out on Limbaugh. Limbaugh deserved it more, AFAIAC; but then, a lot fewer people (I count 1) are doing it on McNabb. I like watching the guy (or used to, haven't watched in a while), but then, I'm not that serious a football watcher.
posted by lodurr at 5:53 AM on December 16, 2005


I guess I don't follow you, lodurr. Why does McNabb need to be called out?
posted by selfnoise at 6:01 AM on December 16, 2005


I'm not saying he needs to. I'm saying it's consistent with the NFL ethos to call him out, and that equating Mondesire with Limbaugh for calling out McNabb is an odd thing to do. It was also consistent with the NFL ethos to call out Limbaugh.

The most offensive thing about Limbaugh's comments was really that he had no business being there in the first place. If Frank Gifford says shit, you get embarrassed and look the other way; if Rush Limbaugh says shit, you look around and wonder who the hell invited him to the party.
posted by lodurr at 6:19 AM on December 16, 2005


I'm probably not being clear, here. I don't blame people for being upset with Mondesire, but as a white guy who barely follows football, it looks to me mostly like garden-variety QB bashing. I never like to see that, because QB is probably teh second highest stress job in American professional sports, and getting second-guessed by all the losers down at Joe's can't help your game. (Highest being hockey goaltender, I'm thinking.) So I think Mondesire is being a jerk, especially when he compares McNabb to Williams while missing the obvious parallel w.r.t. the losing stretch in Tampa.

But I'm not seeing at all how Mondesire's critique consistutes "racism." I think you have to have an odd definition of "racism" to think that.
posted by lodurr at 6:27 AM on December 16, 2005


Mondesire is racist because he basically tells McNabb to play QB more like a black guy. He's basically calling him an Uncle Tom for not running the ball more.

He provides no contextual quotes to McNabb playing the race card. McNabb doesn't run the ball because he's injured, he doesn't want to risk further injury, his coach tells him not to run, and he'd rather gain 30 yards on a pass than 3 yards on a run. It has nothing to do with race. McNabb might have said something about people expecting black QBs to run because idiots like Mondesire do.

To suggest that McNabb needs to run the ball more to somehow live up to his racial identity is extremely racist, regardless of who says it.

What if Limbaugh wrote that "in his early years, McNabb excited us with his ability to run the ball, but lately he hasn't played with the excitement we've come to expect from black QBs."? It's basically the same thing.

I don't care if you're Rush Limbaugh or Whyatt Mondesire - if you are so obsessed with race that when you watch football you actively consider the race of each player, you're a fucking racist.
posted by b_thinky at 6:27 AM on December 16, 2005


Also, Mondesire owns the Philadelphia Sun. That's how his racist article got published. And yes, he is a terrible writer.
posted by b_thinky at 6:32 AM on December 16, 2005


What b_thinky said. Although I understand what you're saying now, lodurr, thanks.

Also, I think that a lot of teams in the NFL are starting to get the idea that your QB running the ball is perhaps not actually a good idea, particularly if you want your quarterback to last more than a couple of seasons.
posted by selfnoise at 6:32 AM on December 16, 2005


He's basically calling him an Uncle Tom for not running the ball more.

I'm totally not getting that from the Mondesire piece. I read it as 'McNabb isn't good enough to get by without scrambling.'
posted by lodurr at 6:43 AM on December 16, 2005


selfnoise: Also, I think that a lot of teams in the NFL are starting to get the idea that your QB running the ball is perhaps not actually a good idea, particularly if you want your quarterback to last more than a couple of seasons.
(... watch as I derail this into a fotball thread...) NFL coaches have always known that; the problem has been convincing their management and their QBs to stick it out in the fact of fans and sportswriters.
posted by lodurr at 6:46 AM on December 16, 2005


The only people who bug me more then crazy sports fans are people who criticize athletes. I don't want to hear some fat whiner complain about an athlete. Get some friends together and play football yourself. It's a lot more fun then sitting around watching TV. Oh, you're too fat? Well, if you can't do it, quit your bitching.

Anyway, the comments don't seem that racist to me, basically calling McNabb on playing the race card (I have no idea if that's true or not) but really, the whole essay was stupid.

On the one hand you have people who think even mentioning race is racist, and on the other you have assholes like Carlos Mencia who think they can say whatever they want because their just fighting the PC-facists.
posted by delmoi at 6:51 AM on December 16, 2005


McNabb is not a top 5 QB over the past five years. Not in 2005, 2003, 2002, or 2001.
posted by Kwantsar at 6:53 AM on December 16, 2005


I don't care if you're Rush Limbaugh or Whyatt Mondesire - if you are so obsessed with race that when you watch football you actively consider the race of each player, you're a fucking racist.

Well, according to the article, Mondesire implied McNabb said something about 'trying to break the black QB stereotype' or something, I'm not sure. If he didn't and Mondesire just made that stuff up, I could see a case for racism, I guess. Would McNabb be offended by the racial stuff in that article? I dunno.
posted by delmoi at 6:54 AM on December 16, 2005


Mondesire is racist because he basically tells McNabb to play QB more like a black guy. He's basically calling him an Uncle Tom for not running the ball more.

!! You're on loony pills, pal. Where on earth do you see *that*? Seriously, let's see the quotes. Here's one:

Donny, you are mediocre at best. And trying to disguise that fact behind some concocted reasoning that African American quarterbacks who can scramble and who can run the ball are somehow lesser field generals than one who can summon up dead-on passes at a whim is more insulting off the field than on.

Mondesire is saying that McNabb himself denigrated black quarterbacks who can run the ball as "lesser field generals," and is attacking that viewpoint. This is the same as accusing McNabb of being an Uncle Tom? Good lord. What planet are you on?
posted by mediareport at 7:15 AM on December 16, 2005


(... watch as I derail this into a fotball thread...)

Fotball: Isn't that where they heat the ball up to 1000 degrees? You can get a sports hernia trying not to touch that thing when it is in play.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:23 AM on December 16, 2005


Ok, scratch the "loony pills" and "what planet" things. I apologize for those unnecessary attacks, b_thinky; it's the kind of thing that brings Mefi down. However, casual accusations of racism really anger me, and I think you are about as off-base here as it is possible to be.
posted by mediareport at 7:25 AM on December 16, 2005


"Mondesire is racist because he basically tells McNabb to play QB more like a black guy. He's basically calling him an Uncle Tom for not running the ball more."

What the hell? Wrong.
And McNabb IS a top 10 QB, but not a top 5. Still, we'd be glad to see him here in Detroit (FIRE MILLEN!)
posted by klangklangston at 7:34 AM on December 16, 2005


Mondesire is saying that McNabb himself denigrated black quarterbacks who can run the ball as "lesser field generals," and is attacking that viewpoint.

See, mediareport, that's the whole thing-- Mondesire (a cool name, BTW) has attributed to McNabb, without any factual justification, this notion that by not running the ball, McNabb is insulting black QBs. And that makes no sense, and would only be applied to a black QB.

What's with middle-level NAACP guys? The last time I heard about someone like this was when some Dallas NAACP guy expressed reservations about Lieberman as a VP nominee because Jews are too interested in money.

Kwantsar: McNabb is not a top 5 QB over the past five years.

C'mon, you don't honestly believe that linking to total passing yards ends the debate about how good a QB is. Isn't Trent Green a better QB than Tom Brady by that rationale?
posted by ibmcginty at 7:39 AM on December 16, 2005


Side note: Our own Will Bunch deserves props as the first to jump on this story in his blog Attytood.
posted by soyjoy at 7:40 AM on December 16, 2005


b_thinky is understanding this better than others, I think. This isn't just a Donovan McNabb thing: it has to do with T.O. and the Eagles falling apart. Basically, yes, this guy IS calling out McNabb for not acting like a black quarterback, and also for getting cozy with the coaches and the management. T.O. was popular with the players in the locker room but not amongst the (white) owners and management. People have even criticized McNabb for doing the Campbell's soup commercials - that this is "selling out". T.O. and McNabb traded barbs in the press, with T.O. talking to reporters and with McNabb having to defend himself afterwards.

The situation in Philly is now toxic, and so people are starting to bring race into it. This guy is criticizing McNabb for "faking" his ability. WTF? He's saying that as a black quarterback, OBVIOUSLY he has amazing talent, because he's black for godssakes! But that he's using the race card by not scrambling and by staying in the pocket and trying to throw from there. He also seems to be criticizing McNabb for not doing everything in his power to keep the team together on the field and off. He should reallly be criticizing T.O., or the Eagles front office for not giving T.O. a bonus at the end of the year. Ever since then, it's been polluted waters.
posted by billysumday at 7:41 AM on December 16, 2005


Right on, billysumday.
posted by ibmcginty at 7:46 AM on December 16, 2005


Your country has more pressing problems than this one.
posted by unSane at 7:53 AM on December 16, 2005


Your country has more pressing problems than this one.

- I'd put fucked-up views about race in the Top 10 problems in the US, without any need to consult statistics.

- People are interested in sports, and we like to talk about things we're interested in. Your life has more pressing issues than commenting on this thread; yet still you did it.
posted by ibmcginty at 7:58 AM on December 16, 2005


Your country has more pressing racial problems than this one.
posted by unSane at 8:04 AM on December 16, 2005


this guy IS calling out McNabb for not acting like a black quarterback

Not precisely. More like McNabb is not using all his abilities because it would make him look less like the traditional stand-in-the-pocket QB (who happen to be white).


He's saying that as a black quarterback, OBVIOUSLY he has amazing talent, because he's black for godssakes!

I didn't see that from the piece.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 8:11 AM on December 16, 2005


"T.O. was popular with the players in the locker room but not amongst the (white) owners and management."

Bullshit. T.O.'s widely known to be lockerroom POISON. He gets in fights with people from his own team, and not just McNabb. He's an incredibly talented asshole that no one wants around, except that he can win games.
posted by klangklangston at 8:15 AM on December 16, 2005


To suggest that McNabb needs to run the ball more to somehow live up to his racial identity is extremely racist, regardless of who says it.

Where does he say that, b_thinky?
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 8:17 AM on December 16, 2005


Can somebody point out the racist parts of this column, with quotes, not made up stuff, plz?
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 8:19 AM on December 16, 2005


b_thinky: How was Limbaugh's comment racist. He said, McNabb is "overrated ... what we have here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback can do well—black coaches and black quarterbacks doing well."

That seems to be more of a statement of the wishes of the media and I don't see how it's at all racist.

Or are you just saying it's racist because it's Limbaugh? Oh, right.
posted by null terminated at 8:19 AM on December 16, 2005


null terminated: I don't think Limbaugh's comments were racist at all, but everyone else threw a fit. Limbaugh said McNabb is overrated (many here seem to agree) because the media desired to see a black QB succeed - not an entirely unbelievable notion.

But because he injected race into a subject where race really doesn't belong, it was inappropriate and seen as racist.

Mondesire does the same thing. Most seem to agree his article is retarded, but nobody calls him a racist, simply because he's black. His words are just as bad as Rush's, if not worse.
posted by b_thinky at 8:27 AM on December 16, 2005


Still, we'd be glad to see him here in Detroit (FIRE MILLEN!)

If there is one thing in this thread that is worth repeating, this is it.
posted by deadcowdan at 8:30 AM on December 16, 2005


When/where did McNabb say "everybody expects black quarterbacks to scramble"? This article is the only mention of that statement coming from McNabb's mouth. If he never said it, then this guy is putting words in his mouth, and he's the one who brought up the race issue.
posted by goatdog at 8:34 AM on December 16, 2005


goatdog: I'm not saying McNabb never said that, but in what context? We only get a 6 word snippet of a sentence. Was it the answer to a question about stereotypes of black quarterbacks (likely)? Or was it his announcing his intention not to scramble anymore in order to break ethnic stereotypes (extremely unlikely)?

That quote gives no evidence that McNabb ever played "the race card."
posted by b_thinky at 8:39 AM on December 16, 2005


but nobody calls him a racist, simply because he's black

Limbaugh was canned for making his usual politicizing asshat statements on a sports show. The present clown was publishing an op-ed in his own fucking paper so bringing out the pitchforks is a bit retarded.

Please point out the racist statements of this column or STFU, plz.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 8:41 AM on December 16, 2005


Well, Mondesire is a racist because in the column he writes "and someone ought to hang that black QB from the nearest tree."

Did that not strike anyone else as racist?
posted by xmutex at 8:42 AM on December 16, 2005


But because [Limbaugh] injected race into a subject where race really doesn't belong, it was inappropriate and seen as racist.

more like something an actual racist would say, I guess.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 8:45 AM on December 16, 2005


Still, we'd be glad to see him here in Detroit (FIRE MILLEN!)

Two words (again): Doug Williams.

Where did he amass a spectacular losing record, while still passing like a demon? Tampa.

Where did he win a Superbowl? D.C.

And I'm still not seeing the "not acting black by running the ball" part. I still read it as 'you're getting too old and scared to run the ball'. And they say that about white ex-scramblers all the time. The fact that race was an issue in the same column does not inherently mean that the loss of ability is about "acting white."

And anyway, as a broad rule of thumb, the better you are, the less you should scramble. The better you are, the more of an asset your team stands to lose when (not if) you blow out your knees so you can look cool for the fans. YMMV; if you're Bret Favre or have a deep bench and a lot of money in your investment account, you can get away with it.
posted by lodurr at 8:46 AM on December 16, 2005


null terminated: I don't think Limbaugh's comments were racist at all, but everyone else threw a fit. Limbaugh said McNabb is overrated (many here seem to agree) because the media desired to see a black QB succeed - not an entirely unbelievable notion.

Ah, I see you're upset that a white man got taken to the woodshed because for mentioning McNabb's race and a black man hasn't (Nevermind the huge difference between a random dude writing a column and a famous ESPN commentator)

Why wait so long to tell us what you really think?
posted by delmoi at 8:47 AM on December 16, 2005


[sarcasm filter] Saying a black man is a good athlete is racist because that secretly implies you think he couldn't be a brain surgeon. Mentioning a persons race is racist. Any of you that said the word "black" are racist. For that matter possibly even if you wear the color black... are you mocking the black man? Or even wearing white... 'cause that's like a KKK robe or something. Oh. And King Kong is racist so don't go see it. [/sarcasm filter]

tempest. teapot.
posted by tkchrist at 8:48 AM on December 16, 2005


I shouldn't have said that T.O. was popular in the locker room, but he did have friends in the locker room. Especially last season, when he broke his ankle but played in the Super Bowl anyway. He was the king of Philly, as he should have been. He was a stud, and he was showing everyone what a stud he was. The problem came during the offseason, when the Eagles decided not to renegotiate his salary.

As far as the content of this FPP, and whether or not it should have included Rush Limbaugh, I think it's valid. Limbaugh is an arrogant, bloviating, small-minded asshole, and unfortunately for him, he said something that got misinterpreted, and he got fired for it. It's difficult to separate the words from who is saying them.

Here, you have a leader of the NAACP criticizing McNabb for... I mean, come on, you're going to say that this has nothing to do with race! Even the national president of the NAACP is outraged by this guy's column. It's not him and it's not b_thinky and it's not me who's having difficulty parsing what parts of the column are racist.

Black quarterbacks simply don't have one standard to conform to. To suggest otherwise is racist. Furthermore, sports is one of the great meritocracies of our day. If you're good, you play. For this guy to suggest that Donovan McNabb is just not good (similar to what Limbaugh was saying) is silly. It's not McNabb's fault if the Eagles don't have a better quarterback. And then for Mondesire to insinuate that McNabb has suggested that black quarterbacks who run are worse quarterbacks, and then to feel betrayed or "faked out" by McNabb because he's, oh, I don't know, sick of getting injured and finally has receivers he can throw to...

Whatever. This is a silly conversation. If you don't understand why the regional leader of the NCAAP writing a column telling a black quarterback how to do his job is racist, then I don't understand how you don't understand.
posted by billysumday at 8:51 AM on December 16, 2005


Oops. I meant NAACP at the end there.
posted by billysumday at 8:54 AM on December 16, 2005


Limbaugh said something that got misinterpreted, and he got fired for it.

Limbaugh said something inappropriate for a sports halftime show.

I agree including Limbaugh here in the FPP is apropos. It is an interesting comparison and it's important for people to understand the differences here.

who's having difficulty parsing what parts of the column are racist

OK, for the third time, what parts, specifically, of the column are racist?

Black quarterbacks simply don't have one standard to conform to. To suggest otherwise is racist

From what I can tell, the columnist is saying McNabb would be a better QB if he scrambled more, but McNabb wants to be more of the traditional passer model and not seen as the "black QB" stereotype.

Talking about racial perceptions is fine for an op-ed in a black-owned newspaper. I think the columnist is largely all-wet but I find the charges of "racism" here to be rather fucking stupid, OK?


posted by Heywood Mogroot at 9:01 AM on December 16, 2005


Well, Limbaugh got fired for being Limbaugh, you know? Who's stupid idea was it to put him on that show in the first place?

There is not one single thing I can point to in the post to convince you. This guy is insinuating all kinds of stuff, and is adding his voice to an already chattering chorus of people who think that Donovan McNabb is an Uncle Tom. He is throwing his hat in their ring.

For instance... "Hey, soup guy, over here!" is an insinuation that McNabb has sold out and cares more about making money and being seeing as a wholesome, nice black man than a leader in the black community. The Campbell's Soup discussion is out there.

For instance... "there is a lie you have tried to use to hide the fact that in reality you actually are not that good" is an insinuation that McNabb has manipulated the press into commending him because he's an untraditional and more white quarterback. This is almost exactly the same thing that Limbaugh insinuated. But whereas Limbaugh blamed the press, this guy is blaming McNabb. I think the onus is on Mondeshire to back up this claim. When has McNabb said these things? I've never heard them.

For instance... "Andy Reid may not have seen it. Owner Jeff Lurie may have missed it on the videotaped replay. But Ray Charles and Steve Wondie 'saw' it. You choked, brother," insinuating that white people have been duped by McNabb's antics but even blind black people know when a 'brother' is faking it.

This whole article is taking McNabb to task for, largely, trying to be the best quarterback he can be. This guy sucks, in my humble opinion, because he's using race to try to poke at McNabb, however subtly, and I think that's bullshit.
posted by billysumday at 9:14 AM on December 16, 2005


Who's stupid idea was it to put him on that show in the first place?

IIRC it was an ABC muckity-muck who was a Rush fan.

There is not one single thing I can point to in the post to convince you.

IOW, you got nothing. Glad that's clarified. While I don't deny the inferences you are bringing to this article, I think you have a pretty fucked-up definition of "racist".

It's proper for a black columnist to write about black issues in a black-owned paper in a largely black urban city.

The core difference between this guy and Rush is that Rush can pontificate on racial issues all day but this guy has to live with them, day in and day out, until he dies.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 9:32 AM on December 16, 2005


IOW, you got nothing.

Well, I don't know what IOW means, but I guess what I meant to say more specifically was that I couldn't convince you, Heywood Mogroot, because you've made up your mind already.

Even Stevie Wonder and Ray Charles can see that you've already made up your mind. Also, if I've got a fucked-up definition of "racist", then so does the leader of the NAACP, the editorial boards of ESPN and SI, most sports writers, Charles Barkley, Warren Moon, and I'm sure a number of other people. I'm okay with that.
posted by billysumday at 9:39 AM on December 16, 2005


From what I can tell, the columnist is saying McNabb would be a better QB if he scrambled more, but McNabb wants to be more of the traditional passer model and not seen as the "black QB" stereotype.

That's how I read it, too. Sounds like garden variety fanboy densitude. As delmoi said up top, when he can sit in the pocket and through like McNabb (who I seem to recall is actually kind of good at that), he'll have grounds for the "hey Donny" nonsense. In an objective analysis, by avoiding injury, McNabb is a better strategic asset to his team (and that's especially true when they're doing badly), and if Mondesire doesn't see that, then he doesn't deserve to have his contract renewed as Head Coach of Eagles. (Oh, wait...)

billysunday, all of those comments you cite can be read in other ways. Yes, they happened in a certain context; that doesn't mean they're about that context.

As I've said, I think Mondesite is a myopic jerk, and he may well think McNabb is a Tom, but I just don't see where he's saying that by staying in the pocket McNabb's 'not acting black enough'.
posted by lodurr at 9:47 AM on December 16, 2005


... because you've made up your mind already.

Dude, so have you. So what? Do you really expect to make everyone see it your way? We read the same piece, and reached our own conclusions. It happens. Anyway, halftime's over and the game is starting again...
posted by lodurr at 9:51 AM on December 16, 2005


Heywood Mogroot: point out the racist parts of this column

As far as I can tell, McNabb didn't say, "everybody expects black QBs to scramble"; but if he ever did, that was/is a real stereotype, and may have been responding to a question, as billysumday pointed out. Mondesire is implying that McNabb said that as a reason to stop scrambling, just to spite black people or seem less black.

Mondesire makes the statements below, with no substantiation. Mondesire says that McNabb betrayed black people by selling out and throwing the football, or that he stopped throwing the ball b/c he didn't want to be seen as a black QB. If McNabb has ever said or implied, "I changed my game b/c I wanted to seem less black," then fine. But Mondesire offers no substantiation .

"this whole dismal season so far has really been a testament of fallen dreams and lost opportunities most of which belongs at your feet (or should I say hands) and that of your coach, Andy Reid who has allowed you to perpetuate a fraud on the field while hiding behind excuses dripping in make-believe racial stereotypes."

"Donny, you are mediocre at best. And trying to disguise that fact behind some concocted reasoning that African American quarterbacks who can scramble and who can run the ball are somehow lesser field generals "

"But then you played the race card and practically all of us fell for your hustle. You scammed us man and there's no way any longer to refrain from "keepin' it real.""

"for you to continue to deny we fans (as well as yourself) one of the strongest elements of your game by claiming that "everybody expects black quarterbacks to scramble" not only amounts to a breach of faith but also belittles the real struggles of black athletes who've had to overcome real racial stereotypcasting in addition to downright segregation."

"your trumped up racial views"
posted by ibmcginty at 9:51 AM on December 16, 2005


The "you scammed us" and "Hey soup boy" and "you're denying we fans" stuff is saying that McNabb betrayed black fans by not running the football. Only a black QB would be subject to that nonsense.

I wish that McNabb had refrained from commenting on it, so as not to give this clown any more attention than he desrves, but I don't blame him for being pissed.
posted by ibmcginty at 9:54 AM on December 16, 2005


billy: the leader of the NAACP did not characterize the remarks as racist. This is, again, your own personal, bullshit, interpretation of the situation. From the FPP:

The chief executive officer of the NAACP criticized the president of its Philadelphia branch Thursday for racially charged comments made about Eagles quarterback Donovan McNabb.

Bruce Gordon, who heads the Baltimore-based National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, issued a statement calling McNabb "a great quarterback, an excellent role model and a class act" and said he intended to apologize for denigrating remarks made by Philadelphia chapter president J. Whyatt Mondesire.

"The NAACP has many civil rights issues that require our attention," Gordon said. "Criticizing Donovan McNabb is not one of them."


Making "racially charged remarks" is not necessarily "racism".

"Racism" itself is shorthand for racial bigotry and racial chauvinism.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 9:55 AM on December 16, 2005


First of all, I don't think I ever said the guy was racist. That was your implication. I said that this guy brought race into a very toxic discussion about the Philadelphia Eagles.

Also, you need a dictionary. Racism is prejudice based on race. It's not always about bigotry. It can be about "acting" a certain color.
posted by billysumday at 10:00 AM on December 16, 2005


Look, it's OK for a black person to make racially charged statements and talk about perceived racial issues. This is not "racism", or being a "racist".

White people have to be careful not to come across as bigots, for obvious reasons.

Yes, this is a double standard. When I was in school there was a UC Rooster cartoon that caused a shit-storm. At the time I didn't see the big deal, but now I do. fwiw, we should be free to say these things in the proper forums (and no, a halftime show is not the proper forum), but we need to be cognizant of the human issues involved in racism and bigotry. It's serious stuff.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 10:02 AM on December 16, 2005


I don't think I ever said the guy was racist

billy, you wrote:

"Even the national president of the NAACP is outraged by this guy's column. It's not him and it's not b_thinky and it's not me who's having difficulty parsing what parts of the column are racist."

So it is possible to write a racist column without being racist?
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 10:07 AM on December 16, 2005


Racism is prejudice based on race

Fine, where is the prejudice in the column?

You, however, put these words into Mondesire's mouth:

"He's saying that as a black quarterback, OBVIOUSLY he has amazing talent, because he's black for godssakes!"

Mondesire did not make this assertion, this is YOUR bullshit reading of his words.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 10:11 AM on December 16, 2005


Also, you need a dictionary. Racism is prejudice based on race

actually, I thought I covered that with the "or racial chauvinism" but whatever.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 10:13 AM on December 16, 2005


Ok, there is a lot of stuff going on here it is hard to understand if you haven't really followed the Eagles over the years. But really, the reason this is a controversy right now is the Eagles stink and won't be in the playoffs for the first time in years, no one wants to talk about THAT.

The meme that "McNabb doesn't run because he wants to prove something about black quarterbacks" did not originate with this column. It has been something that has been said by fans for years, but the fact is, it isn't true and McNabb has never said anything like that.

He doesn't run because the Eagles run a pass first, pass often, pass always offense. Andy Reid firmly believes in the passing game, he would rather risk an incomplete pass for 20 yards than run for 2 yards.

McNabb uses his mobility to help the passing game. When he scrambles he continues to look downfield, he does this really well. McNabb is not and doesn't want to be a statue, but on the plays he would have run on early in his career he now passes, often for big gains, instead. So his rushing numbers are down but his passing numbers are up, and his mobility is a key part of that.

He has no problem running when he has too, almost all of the Eagles comebacks over the years have been caused by key McNabb first down runs.

So, let's take stock. He isn't trying to prove anything about race, and he is mobile when he needs to be. The column isn't racist, it's just stupid and untrue.


Now, someone mentioned McNabb could have given up some salary for TO....well, sure he could have. But the Eagles are still millions of dollars under the cap for this year, if you wan't to blame someone for TO not getting paid more, the front office is where you look.

And yes, TO is popular with his teammates. He just held a party in Atlantic City for them the other day, many attended and had nice things to say.

TO mainly seems to piss off QB's and front offices, he has a problem with authority, but he still is buddy with most of the players.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 10:14 AM on December 16, 2005


Mondesire also conveniently tosses McNabb in with management by suggesting he should be responsible for paying TO and Brian Westbrook out of his own pocket. Does Donovan own the team now? Mondesire says Tom Brady paid his guys.

But the problem is, no Brady didn't pay anyone. And Brady makes more than McNabb.
posted by b_thinky at 10:15 AM on December 16, 2005


Could you explain to me what that cartoon (affirmative action) has to do with this discussion (the expectations of black athletes)?

And thanks for telling me what I can and can't discuss regarding race. How do I get to be a member of the PC police? You're only interested in defending your position because so many people have pointed out why you're wrong. Either attack all of their comments as well or reconsider what you're saying.
posted by billysumday at 10:15 AM on December 16, 2005


Could you explain to me what that cartoon (affirmative action) has to do with this discussion (the expectations of black athletes)?

It's something that has a basis of truth but is impolitic to broach.

And thanks for telling me what I can and can't discuss regarding race

Where did I say that? You're just full of crap here on this thread.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 10:22 AM on December 16, 2005


delmoi: Ah, I see you're upset that a white man got taken to the woodshed because for mentioning McNabb's race and a black man hasn't

Yes! I'm an angry white male. GRRRRRRR! But which comments are more racist?

Limbaugh asserted that the media hypes McNabb because they want to see a black guy do well at QB. Hey, that's entirely believeable. I watched the Indy 500 on TV and the commentators were openy rooting for Danica Patrick to be the 1st female to win the race. Hey, it would make a good story.

Mondesire seems to imply McNabb is "scamming" the black community by appearing in soup commercials, not paying players out of his own pocket and not running the ball like a black QB should.
posted by b_thinky at 10:23 AM on December 16, 2005


Heywood Mogroot: Look, it's OK for a black person to make racially charged statements and talk about perceived racial issues. This is not "racism", or being a "racist".

White people have to be careful not to come across as bigots, for obvious reasons.

Yes, this is a double standard.


I think that's where you said whites can't discuss racial issues, at least with the same freedoms as blacks.
posted by b_thinky at 10:25 AM on December 16, 2005


b_thinky: Limbaugh's comments were charged both racially and politically. Getting into politics in a half-time show is just inappropriate and Rush had to go. Talking about media politics is perfectly fine in sports columns and op-eds, but people just want to watch the fucking game, ya know?

and not running the ball like a black QB should.

I differ here. It appears to me that Mondesire is saying McNabb shouldn't be afraid of being stereotyped as a "black QB" by not running the ball as much as he can.

There is a difference here.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 10:28 AM on December 16, 2005


I think that's where you said whites can't discuss racial issues, at least with the same freedoms as blacks.

Depends on the forum. This is a debate, we are much free-er here. A halftime show doesn't allow for the give-and-take and ability to clarify one's statements, which makes racially-charged statements more verboten (by black or white people, I might add).
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 10:32 AM on December 16, 2005


Heywood: FYI, it wasn't a halftime show. Rush was on NFL Countdown, a 2 hour pregame show on a different network.
posted by b_thinky at 10:38 AM on December 16, 2005


limbaugh's full statement"

"the sports media, being liberals just like liberal media is elsewhere, have a desire that black quarterbacks excel and do very well so that their claims that blacks are being denied opportunity can be validated."

See, if black QBs aren't getting a fair deal in the NFL Rush is fighting on the wrong side of truth here.

Mondesire's statements were highly critical of McNabb, and I agree with the NAACP guy who says they were out of place.

I lack knowledge of the specifics, but furiousxgeorge's post above is correct then it does appear that Mondesire is full of it wrt his specific criticisms as to why McNabb isn't running the ball more.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 10:38 AM on December 16, 2005


b_thinky: thanks for the clarication. Peoples still want to just talk about the fucking game, not the "liberal media" elites, of course, 2 hours or no.
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 10:41 AM on December 16, 2005


After reading all this, it seems like Mondesire is an idiot who got his facts wrong and is venting is frustrations as a fan through a poorly written column in a self-published newspaper.

Stupid, yes.
Racist, hardly.
posted by dead_ at 10:48 AM on December 16, 2005


venting *his
posted by dead_ at 10:52 AM on December 16, 2005


Heywood, do you think Rush's comments would be easier to swallow if he didn't go to the "liberal media" routine? The gist of what he's saying (a good black qb makes a good story) is OK by me, but the part about society denying blacks opportunity and the liberal media are annoying and don't belong on a football show.
posted by b_thinky at 11:21 AM on December 16, 2005


but the part about society denying blacks opportunity and the liberal media are annoying and don't belong on a football show

precisely. Truth may be the absolute defense in libel law, but things are different wrt sports entertainment shows (and establishing the truth of Rush's remarks would be an involved process).

The show's co-host said it best:

"Let me just say that it was not our decision to have Rush Limbaugh on this show. I've seen replay after replay of Limbaugh's comments with my face attached as well as that of my colleagues, comments which made us very uncomfortable at the time, although the depth and the insensitive nature of which weren't fully felt until it seemed too late to reply. He was brought here to talk football, and he broke that trust. Rush told us the social commentary for which he is so well known would not cross over to our show, and instead, he would represent the viewpoint of the intelligent, passionate fan. Rush Limbaugh was not a fit for NFL Countdown."
posted by Heywood Mogroot at 11:34 AM on December 16, 2005


"The column isn't racist, it's just stupid and untrue."

THIS IS ON THE MARK.

(Oh, also, just one more time— someone quoted it above and then proceeded to talk about something else— SACK MILLEN!)
posted by klangklangston at 12:31 PM on December 16, 2005


Mondesire wrote a sports column that was basically criticizing McNabb's playing style. That's fine. Its haranguing tone is typical of sportswriters.

However, he's not a sportswriter, he's the head of the Philadelphia NAACP. When the head of a local NAACP branch says
Your record is another matter entirely. In fact this whole dismal season so far has really been a testament of fallen dreams and lost opportunities most of which belongs at your feet (or should I say hands) and that of your coach, Andy Reid who has allowed you to perpetuate a fraud on the field while hiding behind excuses dripping in make-believe racial stereotypes.
it's very different from when a sportswriter says this.

Essentially, then, this leader of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People is saying that McNabb is retarding the Advancement of Colored People because of the decisions he's making on the field.

That's completely fucking inappropriate and ridiculous. He may be right that McNabb should run the ball more, but this wasn't the right way to say it.

Also, accusing a fellow black man of "standing on the soup line" has really ugly connotations, which I think some folks wouldn't necessarily be aware of. (viz., Mayfield/Hancock, Future Shock lyrics, for just one example.)
posted by ikkyu2 at 12:34 PM on December 16, 2005


it is possible to write a racist column without being racist?

Absolutely. Mondesire's column is a great example.

I had a longer post, but it's a silly subject. Let's just say I mostly agree with billysumday.
posted by mrgrimm at 1:58 PM on December 16, 2005


b_thinky still hasn't pointed to any specific statement that qualifies as "racist." It's all "seems to imply"-type stuff.

b_thinky, please think seriously before including accusations of racism in front-page posts. In fact, please think seriously before including blatant editorializing in front-page posts. Mefi isn't your blog; save the editorial comments for inside the thread, ok?
posted by mediareport at 9:19 PM on December 16, 2005


I don't think he needs to point to specific instances. I'd like to see a better-made argument, though.

As I read it, b_thinky's argument is that it's racist because of the source and context. Mondesire is being a racist because he's using racially charged language and accusing McNabb of being an Uncle Tom. (Not Mondesire's actual words, but that's what b_thinky et al think they mean.) It's not a crazy argument.

Because the topic is race, we all can easily get lost in rat holes. So let's look at it in another way. Let's say Whitney Monday is criticizing Donald McTuesday, a nationally-known bowler from Shelbyville, for changing his style of bowling. Monday is the president of the Shelbyville Association for the Advancement of Bowling People (SAABP); he's also the publisher of the Shelbyville Bowlers Advocate.

Monday says McTuesday is being disrespectful to Shelbyville bowlers because he's started taking four steps instead of five before he releases the ball. When asked why he'd changed his style, McTuesday once remarked (so Monday says) "People expect bowlers to take five steps; I don't want to be like all the other bowlers." As it happens, the switch has paralleled a general decrease in McTuesday's game scores. There's some learned speculation that McTuesday is taking four steps instead of five because he's getting old and is afraid he'll injure his knee on the fifth step.

So Monday says "Donny, you're just not that good. You shouldn't think that you're good enough that you can throw away your bowling heritage by dropping a step before your release. You're being anti-bowling." And then he proceeds to lambaste McTuesday for going back to his hotel after the tournament instead of heading over to the strip club or banging a bunch of bowling groupies. "You make bowlers look square, Donny. At least pretend to be a wild man. You owe it to Bowling."

Here's the question: Would it be anti-bowling of Monday to say that McTuesday anti-bowling?

Certainly, Monday speaks from a position of authority in the Bowling world and in Shelbyville's bowling community, so he has a responsibility to speak with some discretion. But is what he's said "anti-Bowling"?

It's not as ridiculous an analogy as it seems. You could make an argument that Monday is anti-bowling because his actions do harm to the greater cause of bowling. I think that would be a hard argument to knock out of the park on a logical basis; you'd have to address it with data. That said, I don't personally see any merit to it: It's an argument amongst bowlers about bowling issues.
posted by lodurr at 6:07 AM on December 17, 2005


C'mon, you don't honestly believe that linking to total passing yards ends the debate about how good a QB is. Isn't Trent Green a better QB than Tom Brady by that rationale?

I linked to QB rating (not passing yards), which is the best proxy we have. And Tom Brady isn't the best QB in football.
posted by Kwantsar at 9:30 AM on December 17, 2005


(Not Mondesire's actual words, but that's what b_thinky et al think they mean.)

You've made my point nicely, lodurr.
posted by mediareport at 5:21 PM on December 17, 2005


The op-ed is racist because it assumes (IMO) McNabb has changed his playing style to make himself more appealing to white management and NFL history (racist part I) and implies (again, IMO) that McNabb would be more successful if he used his god-given black abilities (racist part II) (which somehow includes scrambling, though, as noted, the greatest scramblers of all time have been white).

I think that's the/my gist of it. It's not anything to get lambasted over, but it is a rather unsettling opinion. To me. That is. Two days later.
posted by mrgrimm at 10:02 AM on December 19, 2005


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