Comments on: The Toledo War

The Toledo War

goatdog — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:17:30 -0800

"Never in the course of my life have I known a controversy of which all the right so clearly on one side and all the power so overwhelmingly on the other." So said former President and current Massachusetts Representative John Quincy Adams regarding a territorial conflict between Michigan and Ohio that would eventually grow into the Toledo War of 1835. [more inside]

By: goatdog

goatdog — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:17:40 -0800

It started with two conflicting surveys of the area at the southern end of Michigan territory, the first one giving the Toledo area to Ohio and the second (and more accurate) one giving it to Michigan. When Michigan filed for statehood, they claimed the Toledo strip, and Ohioans in Congress blocked their bid. The "boy governor" Stevens T. Mason gathered up Michigan's militia and went on the march, kidnapping nine Ohio officials and holding them hostage until President Andrew Jackson stepped in and ended the conflict, giving Toledo to Ohio. There were no deaths on either side, although one Michigan deputy was stabbed in a tavern (search for "Two Stickney"). As a consolation prize, Michigan got the copper-rich upper peninsula when it became a state in 1837. The issue wasn't fully resolved until 1972. (Wikipedia, tripod-hosted page with an Ohio-centric take on the conflict)

By: PhatLobley

PhatLobley — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:23:48 -0800

By Tom Jones / special to The Detroit News The late Tom Jones, former director of the Historical Society of Michigan Whoah. Seriously, though, as long as they keep Columbus south of the border, I, as something of an adopted Michigander, will be happy. Cool post, goatdog. If you're quite interested in 19th century Michigan history, I wrote a rockin' undergrad thesis about cholera in Detroit in the 1830s.

By: joe lisboa

joe lisboa — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:24:45 -0800

"I contend that the solution was political," he said. "Had the matter gone to the Supreme Court, it probably would have been resolved in Michigan's favor. But President (Andrew) Jackson didn't want that. The year 1836 was an election year. He was courting Ohio's electoral votes, and he worked out a political compromise." The more things change, etc.

By: caddis

caddis — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:33:27 -0800

Michigan may have lost the battle, but won the war. Ohio can keep Toledo.

By: Pollomacho

Pollomacho — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:41:23 -0800

They should have just given it to Indiana and been rid of the matter.

By: psmealey

psmealey — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:42:22 -0800

former President and current Massachusetts Representative John Quincy Adams Adams ran for Congress after he'd already served as POTUS? He actually did. Crazy.

By: dhartung

dhartung — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:49:38 -0800

Heh. I've always loved this, and I say it as "Michigan and Ohio fought a war. Over Toledo. Ohio lost." It's also unfortunate for Indiana. They got stuck with South Bend. ;-)

By: drezdn

drezdn — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 10:55:57 -0800

If I remember correctly, this is how the territory that would become Wisconsin lost the U.P. to Michigan.

By: rkent

rkent — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:01:31 -0800

They should have just given it to Indiana and been rid of the matter. Couldn't we have pawned it off on Canada somehow? I mean it's so close. On a (sort of) related note, there's an intersection when you're heading east on I-94, I think it's US-23 though it might be 275, where the road splits 3 ways and the choices are "Flint / Detroit / Toledo". If anything was gonna convince you to just give up and turn around...

By: luftmensch

luftmensch — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:03:17 -0800

I wrote a rockin' undergrad thesis about cholera in Detroit in the 1830s. That is officially the cool phrase of the day.

By: sciurus

sciurus — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:07:04 -0800

They got stuck with South Bend. And what, pray, is wrong with South Bend? Apart from the ethanol stench...

By: languagehat

languagehat — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:12:01 -0800

Wow, fascinating stuff—I knew nothing about this. Thanks, goatdog! Incidentally, that Gov. Lucas was a scary-looking dude.

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:14:25 -0800

And what, pray, is wrong with South Bend? aside from being dull, dingy, depressing and flat, not much ... it does have the one redeeming feature of not being in ohio

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:16:43 -0800

the choices are "Flint / Detroit / Toledo". If anything was gonna convince you to just give up and turn around... and do what? ... head back to jackson?

By: rkent

rkent — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:27:49 -0800

the choices are "Flint / Detroit / Toledo". If anything was gonna convince you to just give up and turn around... and do what? ... head back to jackson? Zing! Don't forget Ann Arbor, though.

By: sciurus

sciurus — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:28:29 -0800

aside from being dull, dingy, depressing and flat, not much That describes most of America from mid-Ohio to mid-Colorado. ;) I just wanted to make sure dhartung wasn't knocking my Fighting Irish.

By: tetsuo

tetsuo — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:29:46 -0800

I always wondered why Michigan was split into two bits, but never bothered to research it. Thanks goatdog.

By: rkent

rkent — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:36:09 -0800

I always wondered why Michigan was split into two bits, but never bothered to research it. And yet:

...when the boundary arguement was settled, Michigan didn't get the Upper Peninsula in exchange, it got only the western end of the peninsula -- the eastern end had long been considered part of Michigan...

By: tetsuo

tetsuo — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:42:15 -0800

Lift me up and then tear me back down...back to the warm shelter of apathetic curiousity on the subject.

By: Marnie

Marnie — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:43:57 -0800

A few years ago they were going to change the city slogan to ToledOH!, but decided against it because of the Simpsons thing. But Toledo has a big port and is a good mid-point between several major cities (Cleveland, Columbus, Chicago, Detroit). There was a lot of mob activity there back in the day for this reason. It was and is a valuable commodity. When it's not being invaded by Nazis and re-electing Carty Finkbeiner. Or bargaining with the Jeep plant not to leave town.

By: dhartung

dhartung — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:44:42 -0800

Adams ran for Congress after he'd already served as POTUS? He actually did. Crazy. That's nothing. Taft served as President, then as Chief Justice. And arguably, Adams's Congressional service as an abolitionist had more lasting value than his presidency.

By: GregW

GregW — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 11:49:48 -0800

The best thing about this "war," which isn't mentioned in the post, is that both Ohio and Michigan sent out their militias but they both got lost in the Black Swamp and never ended up meeting each other. I've always thought that would make a good movie -- symbolism about stupidity/futility of war, etc.

By: hal9k

hal9k — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:15:47 -0800

Incidentally, that Gov. Lucas was a scary-looking dude. His visage the better to keep the prisoners in check.

By: Popular Ethics

Popular Ethics — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 12:45:07 -0800

Neat article. As a Canadian, I hadn't heard of the battle over Toledo. Allow me to add the only Michigan territorial trivia I know: During the war of 1812, the Shawnee chief Tecumseh took fort Detroit for the British closing a front in the war which had been invaded the year before. Tecumseh hoped the British would help him develop a Native confederacy (starting with Michigan?). He might have succeeded in that dream too, had the British general Henry Proctor not sold him out. (All this I learned from Canada: A People's History) So you might have lost Detroit as well. *sits back and waits for the sarcastic comments*

By: goatdog

goatdog — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 13:00:30 -0800

Ah, the Michigan Pioneer and Historical Collections (from the "fort Detroit for the British" link). When I worked at the Clarke library, a fellow grad student and I had to read through all 40 volumes (a total of ∼26,000 pages) of that to put together their Native American Material bibliography.

By: Baby_Balrog

Baby_Balrog — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 13:25:35 -0800

argh. ... I've considered making this post so many times. Damn you.

By: PhatLobley

PhatLobley — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 13:41:02 -0800

Balrog, it takes a certain amount of gumption to make your vendetta-laden, one-issue posting history so easily accessible. Mefi is not your personal politico-historical blog. ;) I'm so with you. I lived in Michigan for four years. I came out with a degree and a healthy hatred of all things Ohio except for Cedar Point.

By: goatdog

goatdog — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 13:51:34 -0800

And Kings Island. And... um. Yeah. Toledo has a nice art museum. Which should belong to Michigan.

By: Baby_Balrog

Baby_Balrog — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 14:11:40 -0800

ALL OF IT SHOULD BELONG TO MICHIGAN.

By: rkent

rkent — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 14:30:11 -0800

ALL OF IT SHOULD BELONG TO MICHIGAN. posted by Baby_Balrog No way. Then Michigan would abut Kentucky. Michigan would have championships in a game called "cornhole." They're more useful to us as a perennial spite-repository and southern buffer zone. Not that we will ever respect or appreciate them for these services. Go Blue!

By: Hat Maui

Hat Maui — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 15:06:10 -0800

suck it, ~~ohio hataz~~ mitten staters! The best thing about this "war," which isn't mentioned in the post, is that both Ohio and Michigan sent out their militias but they both got lost in the Black Swamp and never ended up meeting each other. I've always thought that would make a good movie -- symbolism about stupidity/futility of war, etc. as i iunderstand it, the ohio militia would have gotten a royal beatdown from michigan due to this very fact -- toldedo is mostly north of the black swamp, and the ohio militia had to trudge thru that shit to even attempt to join the battle.

By: nola

nola — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 15:30:46 -0800

people fought over michigan? or as the folks from that neck of the woods like to say " Mich-I-Gaaaan !"

By: snickerdoodle

snickerdoodle — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 19:50:40 -0800

The one casualty in that war? A lonesome mule. And thus my school's mascot became the Kicking Mules. Ah, high school.

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 20:47:04 -0800

So you might have lost Detroit as well. how much do you want for it? suck it, mitten staters! the rats in the basement are getting restless again ... let's give them the back of our hand. The one casualty in that war? A lonesome mule. she would have made some ohio farmer a good wife

By: electric_counterpoint

electric_counterpoint — Mon, 19 Dec 2005 22:37:44 -0800

Balrog: Somehow, seeing all those crazy-eyed non sequiturs all lined up like that just made my night. Keep on fighting the good fight. To everyone else: As a loyal Michigander, I have but one thing to say: "HEY. Youse guys settle down here." Also: meta. Also also: there are more colons in this post than in, let's see, four normally-endowed humans. Seriously.

By: Hat Maui

Hat Maui — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 01:12:22 -0800

she would have made some ohio farmer a good wife yeah, and despite her sterility, they still would have found a way to have a young buckeye muleboy that would grow up to kick the shit out of the ~~wolverines~~ fat weasels of the university of michigan football squad. hey, all this animism is making me feel shinto. in conclusion,

By: stilgar

stilgar — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 05:45:25 -0800

as a long time resident of toledo i can tell you we would have been happy to welcome our Michigan overlords, if only to get us out of the state that reelected gw. toledo is a hole, and i shall soon return there for a lovely holiday. weee.

By: HuronBob

HuronBob — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 06:02:40 -0800

Toledo-Mecca for those in Michigan under 21 and without the means to otherwise obtain alcohol.... Toledo- the punishment for not being smart enough to pretend to be old enough to drink in Michigan. Toledo- 1967, Benny's Bull Fiddle, first bar off of US 23 after you pass the state line. Home of sawdust floors, the smell of stale beer, cigarette smoke, and girls that only looked good when they announced "last call". Toledo- Thank you for being there, and for winning the war, otherwise I would have had to have driven even further for that first Miller's High Life, the champagne of bottled beers.

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 09:58:28 -0800

in conclusion "image hosted by tripod" ohio intelligence and competence strikes again

By: Hat Maui

Hat Maui — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 18:31:16 -0800

what are you talking about? ^^i'm in arizona. and even out here, i can smell the stink wafting off the mitten. and hey, i have no say where osama bin michigan hosts his images. i just report the photographic, unmanipulated proof. but you? you sound like a coddler of terrorists.

By: drezdn

drezdn — Tue, 20 Dec 2005 21:23:10 -0800

But we can all agree that Wisconsin is better than either Michigan or Ohio, right? (still bitter about the time I had to drive out of Athens, OH during the middle of a snow storm/ the time I foolishly booked a show in detroit the day after a show in Minneapolis).

By: kiha1972

kiha1972 — Wed, 21 Dec 2005 09:50:39 -0800

Yes, I agree that Wisconsin is better than either Michigan or Ohio.

By: electric_counterpoint

electric_counterpoint — Thu, 22 Dec 2005 22:04:37 -0800

...but not both. In fact, only better than Ohio. Which is pretty much by legal definition (given that Ohio's state constitution demarcates its borders around "all the contiguous land which, when taken together, comprises the worst spot in the United States."). I met a girl from Ohio at a party a month ago. She definitely IM'd me, but I did not call her back. So much hate.

By: PhatLobley

PhatLobley — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:08:20 -0800

Michigan has John Dingell. Ohio has this shit. Point Michigan.