Comments on: Christmas is a Big Lie

Christmas is a Big Lie

tcobretti — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:18:29 -0800

The War on Christmas. A very brief overview of the war Christians have waged against other religious holidays since roughly 400AD. Just a reminder of the reason for the season.

By: ericb

ericb — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:19:44 -0800

What 'War on Christmas'?

By: adamkempa

adamkempa — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:30:21 -0800

I just recently learned about this, from a song that presents approximately the same information, neatly wrapped in christmas music form (Disclaimer: written and performed by a friend).

By: b_thinky

b_thinky — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 12:57:28 -0800

When I was in elementary school, Winter Break was called "Christmas Vacation" and Spring Break was called "Easter Vacation." How come nobody defends Easter? Isn't it just as significant to Christians as Christmas?

By: Heminator

Heminator — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:04:57 -0800

There may be some truth in some of the info here, but I am kind of irritated at the popular notion that the date for Christmas was chosen deliberately to coincide with other pagan holidays. The evidence seems tilted against this.

By: JMOZ

JMOZ — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:05:42 -0800

b_thinky: As an outsider (secular Jew), I always just assumed the Christians had admitted to themselves that Easter was primarily a pagan holiday, but they were still in denial about Christmas. (Channukah is a third-tier holiday for Jews; it's only important because it competes with Christmas and makes it easier to retain the hearts and souls of Jewish childen.

By: joseph_elmhurst

joseph_elmhurst — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:17:43 -0800

I always just assumed the Christians had admitted to themselves that Easter was primarily a pagan holiday.... Although there are definitely "pagan" elements to Easter celebrations, I'd say that (in the scheme of things) it's probably less non-Christian than Christmas. For one thing, Jesus' crucifixion took place during Pesach (typically near Easter) whereas Jesus' birth probably didn't happen during Winter. Bunnies and eggs aside, I can't think of any other Easter traditions that don't have Christian origins. And, actually, I'd say (again in the scheme of things) that Easter is more important to Christianity than Christmas. Without the Ressurection, Jesus wouldn't be the Messiah. Sure one could say the same about virgin birth, etc., but the two Jesus birth stories in the Gospels (Matthew & Luke) are quite different, yet the crucifixion/ressurection story is pretty darn similar across the board. Caveat: I'm Jewish, but have a religious studies background with a New Testament focus.

By: stbalbach

stbalbach — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:18:50 -0800

Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol (1844?) is credited with the Christmas revival, many customs had been largely set aside in previous Puritan generations. "Scrooge" was not just a cranky old man, he was representative of all the people who were anti-Christmas.

By: Navek Rednam

Navek Rednam — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:19:38 -0800

I had this discussion on another forum and I pointed out that nothing in culture appears out of thin air - it builds upon the previous ideas, why would Christmas 'traditions' be any different? And have the church sought actively destroy these traditions or invest them with Christian meaning? They seem to be traditions that have been co-opted by Christian people and not referenced in the bible unless there is a missing chapter called Manners 16:4 "Thou shalt bathe thy living space in lights adorned on the Fir tree and verily thy shall not refuse a kiss 'neath Mystletow, but not accepeth the tongue unlest yee be marryed." If anything it shows the malability and dogged resilience of faiths. And this is not a grand revelation of Christmas because this type of article appears every Christmas. Should the Christian faith die a death I wouldn't be surprised if another special occasions fall on December 25th. If you can't move the mountain, then you must go to it.

By: Navek Rednam

Navek Rednam — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:23:42 -0800

I had this discussion on another forum and I pointed out that nothing in culture appears out of thin air - it builds upon the previous ideas, why would Christmas 'traditions' be any different? And have the church sought actively destroy these traditions or invest them with Christian meaning? They seem to be traditions that have been co-opted by Christian people and not referenced in the bible; unless there is a missing chapter called Manners 16:4 "Thou shalt bathe thy living space in lights adorned on the Fir tree and verily thy shall not refuse a kiss 'neath Mystletow, but not accepeth the tongue unlest yee be marryed." If anything it shows the malability and dogged resilience of faiths. And this is not a grand revelation of Christmas because this type of article seems to appear every Christmas. Should the Christian faith die a death I wouldn't be surprised if another special occasions fall on December 25th. If you can't move the mountain, then you must go to it.

By: Navek Rednam

Navek Rednam — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:29:59 -0800

Ooops sorry.

By: caddis

caddis — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 13:42:17 -0800

As for Fox's war on Christmas, their John Gibson who wrote a book about the "war on Christmas" melted down while debating Rob Boston of Americans United for Seperation of Church and State. He later called him on his cell phone and threatened him. How Christian of him. The so called war is nothing but a big promotion of a book and so-called news network.

By: Citizen Premier

Citizen Premier — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 14:07:59 -0800

WE ARE CHRISTIANITY. YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

By: tcobretti

tcobretti — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 15:01:42 -0800

Although there are definitely "pagan" elements to Easter celebrations, I'd say that (in the scheme of things) it's probably less non-Christian than Christmas. Throughout the world's mythologies there have been "Christ" figures, many of whom were associated with spring. The word "Easter" is in fact from pagan origins. My favorite pagan Jesus is Balder, cause he doen't come back. Those Norse were pretty pessimistic!

By: Protocols of the Elders of Awesome

Protocols of the Elders of Awesome — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 15:04:54 -0800

From Heminator's link: Prior to 274 there's no record of a major sun cult at the Northern Hemisphere's winter solstice (the year's shortest day, which actually occurs before Dec. 25). As I understood it, the solstice fell precisely on Dec. 25th prior to Gregorian calendar reforms. No?

By: tcobretti

tcobretti — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 15:31:08 -0800

I don't know about the Gregorian Solstice question, but many holidays are roughly linked to the solstice.

By: stbalbach

stbalbach — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 15:45:10 -0800

Christmas (December 25th) was not even a Federal holiday until 1871. It's a fairly recent "event". It's ironic how the fundamentalist Christians are fighting for Christmas, when 150 years ago fighting against Christmas.

By: badstone

badstone — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 16:15:58 -0800

Bunnies and eggs aside, I can't think of any other Easter traditions that don't have Christian origins. Seriously? I can't think of any aspects of the holiday that do have a strictly Christian origin, other than the celebration of Christ's resurrection, which happens to fit quite well into the overall them of Easter, which is the arrival of spring and the associated rebirth of the natural world. That's the whole point of Easter eggs - they represent the potential for rebirth.

By: wtfchuck

wtfchuck — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 16:20:06 -0800

Peace on Earth, Goodwill to Man.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 16:57:29 -0800

This is a link to a three-paragraph blog post presenting a vague summary of the history of Christmas. Have I got that straight? And this is better than a link to, say, the Wikipedia article, which has far more information, why exactly? (And no, I don't think a Wikipedia article would be a good MeFi post; I think this is even worse.)

By: HuronBob

HuronBob — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:03:17 -0800

I'll be glad when xmas is over...and we can argue about new year's day for a while instead...... ...go shopping, spend money, get over it!

By: fleetmouse

fleetmouse — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:14:21 -0800

Wow, that John Gibson meltdown is stellar. I it just me or does Fox have more than their fair share of emotionally unstable anchors?

By: sexymofo

sexymofo — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:20:16 -0800

By: Eekacat

Eekacat — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:30:10 -0800

I'm with languagehat on this. A topic that has such potential and done so crappily. And Herminator's link completely misses the mark. I remember when John Gibson was a crappy reporter for the local TV station in Sacramento when I grew up there. Crap has come a long way, baby.

By: Heywood Mogroot

Heywood Mogroot — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 18:10:24 -0800

Hey lh, Merry Christmas and/or Happy Holidays !

By: Zinger

Zinger — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 19:17:57 -0800

I had someone accuse me last week of being "a left leaning democrat, or a Jew, or Mohammedan, or just cowardly politically correct" because I'd signed my last column with 'Happy Holidays.' He went on to say: "I wish you were a Christian, because if you are not and don't repent, you could go to Hell." Kinda took my breath away. And a peace on earth to you too, bub!

By: maxsparber

maxsparber — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 19:20:22 -0800

It's a war on unrepentant non-Christians!

By: AspectRatio

AspectRatio — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 21:00:45 -0800

For a religion of forgiveness and love, Christians tend to enjoy fighting against any and everything. War on Christmas? So what? Do you think Jesus really cares if the Wal-Mart puts up a sign saying Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas? Hmmm... missed the part of the Bible that says "I shall smite Wal-Mart for not putting up a sign saying Happy Birthday to Me." Amen.

By: AspectRatio

AspectRatio — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 21:02:34 -0800

And oh yeah... Easter. Well, the bunnies are big that time of year because at the base of the cross there was a whole family of happy little bunnies eating chocolate eggs. Yes. Seems like some "Christians" won't be happy until the Inquisition rolls back into town. Love and forgiveness peeps.

By: Miko

Miko — Fri, 23 Dec 2005 22:30:37 -0800

Agree with Languagehat. Just here on MeFi, within the last two weeks alone, I have been involved in this conversation three or four times already.

By: neuron

neuron — Sat, 24 Dec 2005 00:22:50 -0800

"Christmas is the time when people of all faiths come together to worship Jesus." -- Bart Simpson

By: ghastlyfop

ghastlyfop — Sat, 24 Dec 2005 19:51:27 -0800

"Christmas is the time when people of all faiths come together to worship Jesus." -- Bart Simpson you mean "Santa Claus"!

By: maxsparber

maxsparber — Sat, 24 Dec 2005 19:55:45 -0800

Well, thanks to the war on Christmas, nothing Christmasy is happening anywhere in the world tonight. I hope you secular humanists are happy with your little victory. Now back to my eggnog.

By: mediareport

mediareport — Sat, 24 Dec 2005 20:14:56 -0800

I am kind of irritated at the popular notion that the date for Christmas was chosen deliberately to coincide with other pagan holidays. The evidence seems tilted against this. Uh, the link doesn't really back up your claim, Heminator, that "the evidence" tilts against a relatively simple political/materialistic explanation for the December celebration of Christ's birth. The pagan/Roman Saturnalia celebration goes back much further than Emperor Aurelian's festival, for one thing, and the benefits to a growing church of co-opting a popular pre-existing celebration are obvious and fit nicely with how power-conscious humans have operated throughout history, and more importantly with the detailed political strategizing we *know* was a factor in many of the heated debates from the early centuries of the Christian church. Sure, my reading of the relevant history is far from Ph.D-level, but I do know that you haven't presented much of an argument against the "popular notion" that so irritates you. Instead, the article quotes one "church history specialist" on something called "the 'integral age' concept, taught by ancient Judaism though not in the Bible," which apparently "held that Israel's great prophets died the same day as their birth or conception." Since Jesus died around Passover, the early Christians apparently thought, he was conceived [er, why not born?] around Passover, so, adding 9 months, he was born at the end of December. Ta da! Jesus really *was* born in December! Nothing to do with pagan celebrations at all! Puh-lease. To call that line of reasoning weak is to do it a favor. You certainly have no reason to use it to claim "the evidence" tilts away ffrom the idea that early church leaders saw political benefit to allying their savior's birthday with widely popular pre-Christian celebrations throughout the region. Regardless, we do know that elements of classical saturnalian rites - the Lord of Misrule, social role reversals like Boy Bishops, the Feast of Asses, etc - consistently appear during official Christmas celebrations all through the middle ages.