Comments on: The Increasingly Unfriendly Skies

The Increasingly Unfriendly Skies

digaman — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:20:15 -0800

Is your name James Moore? If so, you may be a terrorist. Or at least the NSA thinks so, having added that name -- which also happens to be the name of the author of Bush's Brain: How Karl Rove Made George W. Bush Presidential -- to its mysteriously targeted and infamously mismanaged "No-Fly" list [previously discussed here.]

By: digaman

digaman — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:21:56 -0800

Jesus, I meant to type TSA. Freudian slip!

By: Artw

Artw — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:23:20 -0800

That's it, you're on the list!

By: Dag Maggot

Dag Maggot — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:45:00 -0800

Bush is Nixon with more unchecked power. Personal enemy lists. I'm sure he's got one, and I'm sure James Moore is on it. He's been on this list for a year! This is disgusting. Can we march on the Whitehouse yet?

By: digaman

digaman — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:45:56 -0800

Maybe Bush figured anybody named "Moore" must be The Enemy.

By: y6y6y6

y6y6y6 — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:46:56 -0800

"I have been on the No Fly Watch List for a year. I will never be told the official reason. No one ever is. You cannot sue to get the information. Nothing I have done has moved me any closer to getting off the list. There were 35,000 Americans in that database last year. According to a European government that screens hundreds of thousands of American travelers every year, the list they have been given to work from has since grown to 80,000." I have a relative on this list. She's a retired school teacher and grandmother with a spotless record, no membership in any odd groups, never attended any subversive type meetings, etc, etc. Yet I, who have publicly and constantly called for the overthrow of the Bush administration by vague means, attended many anti-war and anti-Bush events, was a member of a slightly radical student group in college, and spent more than an insignificant amount of time Googling "bomb recipes", can fly freely. Better yet - Every time I fly my ticket gets printed with a code ("SSSS") which means I need to be searched and my luggage turned inside out. I know that's what the code means because the TSA folks always point it out when they tell me I need to be searched. But my wife, who always travels with me, is never searched or questioned. Ever. How could any of this possibly be effective? Anyone? Wild guess? If we tell the suspected terrorists that we're going to search them or detain them, but we're not going to bother with the folks they bought tickets together with, isn't this helping them get "bad things" on the plane? Aren't we telling them which attacker needs to carry the knives? Are we really this stupid? I'm asking. Are we as a nation so dumb that we - any of us - can't just say enough is enough?

By: A189Nut

A189Nut — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:52:46 -0800

So everyone in the world called James Moore can't fly?

By: digaman

digaman — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:53:21 -0800

Hm, interesting. The last time I flew, I got that SSSS code too, was unable to use curbside check-in -- which meant an extra half-hour of waiting in line -- and was thoroughly searched.

By: digaman

digaman — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 15:54:50 -0800

A189, even the James Moore of Bush's Brain can fly -- but he has to arrive three hours before every flight to go through the rigamarole of calling the TSA and proving that he's not that James Moore, whoever that James Moore is.

By: ericb

ericb — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:00:30 -0800

4-year-old turns up on government ‘no-fly’ list

"Edward Allen’s reaction to being on the government’s 'no-fly' list should have been the tip-off that he is no terrorist. 'I don’t want to be on the list. I want to fly and see my grandma,' the 4-year-old boy said, according to his mother. Sijollie Allen and her son had trouble boarding planes last month because someone with the same name as Edward is on a government terrorist watch list." [Associated Press | January 5, 2006]

By: y6y6y6

y6y6y6 — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:01:20 -0800

"The last time I flew, I got that SSSS code too" I'll bet you have it from now on. After the first time I got it it's been on every ticket. I just plan for it. Try this - Have your wife bring all your carry on stuff through. It speeds things up quite a bit if they don't have to check your underwear and swab it for explosives.

By: ericb

ericb — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:01:33 -0800

"...a ticket agent told [Sijollie Allen ]: 'You’re lucky that we’re letting you through instead of putting you through the other process.'"

By: Meredith

Meredith — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:10:45 -0800

God help us if they ever find MeFi. We'll all be blacklisted and grounded for life. :)

By: infowar

infowar — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:13:16 -0800

America is sleepwalking. It's the predictable process that somehow assures people that the government is taking our safety into account. Frankly, I don't understand how the deaths of 3,000 people has led to such fear in people. Life is nothing but chance. Why the obsession in trying to transfer even minute risk from oneself to another? The secrecy involved in the program merely reinforces that fear. If there was some recourse to being removed from the list (such as the 4 year old mentioned above) then their wouldn't be so much fear.

By: littleme

littleme — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:14:21 -0800

So everyone in the world called James Moore can't fly? Pretty much, yes. Or, at least, everyone in the world called James Moore is likely to get a very, very thorough going-over before they're allowed on a plane. Because, you know, having the same name as that used by a terrorist as an alias (or suspected to have been used by a suspected terrorist, anyway) makes you just as bad as said suspected terrorist. Or something.

By: Dipsomaniac

Dipsomaniac — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:18:08 -0800

D'you know, it occurs to me that the no-fly list could be used to actually eliminate suspects. Just publish the names on it. Big list, all public and everything. Now you don't have to search the people using those names... Well, for a little while, maybe.

By: fire&wings

fire&wings — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:22:09 -0800

He is being incredibly good about it. I would be fucking raging if I was unable to fly within my own country just because I wrote a book making fun of the government. Behind the flimsy bluster of this and other more grandstand anti terrah measures, a gang of terrorists are crouched, waiting to get on a plane undetected, and I doubt any of them are called Yusuf Islam or have best selling books out criticizing George W. Bush.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:34:38 -0800

I like the GIGO argument from the FBI agent. It’s not going to be an issue for me, but the abuse of this kind of power really pisses me off. It’s exactly the kind of thing that shouldn’t happen. Not simply because it’s used to make political undesirables uncomfortable, but also because it lacks in many respects, a fundamental reason behind it. Or, apparently, any methodology at all. The more you see of the Herr Kommandant the more you see there are no set rules you can live by, you cannot say to yourself, "If I follow these rules, I will be safe."

By: BoringPostcards

BoringPostcards — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:49:30 -0800

FWIW, the "SSSS" thing on yur boarding pass may NOT follow you forever. I had it once last summer- I was on a business trip and my return fight was changed three times in 24 hous by my employer, so that sent up a red flag and I got the extra-thorough search.* I've flown a couple of times since then, though, and everything was back to normal. *This was the Orlando airport, and I actually got through the line about 20 minutes faster than my co-workers who were flying with me, because they got stuck in a mass of people leaving Disneyworld in the regular lines.

By: aeschenkarnos

aeschenkarnos — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 16:50:50 -0800

Given the number of self-described "investigative journalists" on that list, the process for getting on it really ought to be known by now. Surely at least one of the clerks that administer it is corruptible. (Or un-corruptible, depending on how you look at it.) It seems very very odd to me that "you can't sue to find out". As a citizen of the USA you would surely have standing to object in court to your presence on a no-fly list, whether that list be maintained by a commercial entity or a government department. Whatever happened to the nation of lawsuits? Just get enough of the victims together to fund the process, put up one as the nominal plaintiff, and sue. Surely if anyone had actually tried this, the results, even if negative, would have shown up on blogs. Newspaper ad: "Are you, your elderly granny, or your little child on the mysterious Do Not Fly list? Tired of being uselessly harassed at airports by poorly trained and rude minimum-wage employees while a genuine terrorist, just by using an alias that isn't your name, could easily walk through? Call this number: ..."

By: Meridian

Meridian — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 17:22:31 -0800

The list is now 80,000 names long? There must be thousands of common names on that list. I bet all the good names are already taken and, as time progresses, we'll have to start changing our names in ever more creative ways. Regards, - Meridian Pooty-McChops Esq.

By: nlindstrom

nlindstrom — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 17:23:31 -0800

Does the SSSS code stand for Schutzstaffel supersuche?

By: onegreeneye

onegreeneye — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 17:26:56 -0800

My husband's very, very common name is on the no fly list. He goes through much annoyance when he travels. The dumb thing is, they can clearly see that he's traveling with me and with our two children, yet only HIS bags, person, etc. are repeatedly check and rechecked for who knows what contraband items. Wouldn't a terrorist perhaps be ok with putting dangerous stuff in his wife's bag too? Or on her person?

By: delmoi

delmoi — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 17:29:14 -0800

can you change your name and get off the list? Supposedly they are using the soundex algorithm.

By: onegreeneye

onegreeneye — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 17:44:00 -0800

They also use versions of a name. For example: Nelson David (pronounced Dah-veed) is on the list. Thus, anyone named David Nelson is on the list. Adding a Jr., or a middle name on your ticket doesn't differentiate you from that person, sadly. And there is a law suit going.

By: onegreeneye

onegreeneye — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 17:44:51 -0800

Sorry, I'm new to this. It didn't post the link to the CNN page detailing the ACLU's no fly list lawsuit. http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/04/06/no.fly.lawsuit/

By: longsleeves

longsleeves — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 17:55:11 -0800

It posts the link to CNN or else it gets the hose again. --Leaving Disneyworld in the regular lines......

By: -harlequin-

-harlequin- — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:42:58 -0800

Can someone collect a few of these common names that have been publicly confirmed to be on the No Fly list, and post them in an askMefi question to find out if readers who have these names themselves or have friends with them, have in fact taken flights without no-fly-list trouble? Because I have a suspicion that most James Moore's are not being no-fly flagged, just this one.

By: -harlequin-

-harlequin- — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:47:03 -0800

Actually, I just realised that my suspicion is based largely on the commonsense knowledge that it would be mindnumbingly stupid and pointless to base the list on first and last name only, without additional information, but on reflection, I am niave to assume the homeland security apparatus of this country is not simply mindnumbingly stupid and pointless. Which way would Occam's razor cut here?

By: -harlequin-

-harlequin- — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:58:40 -0800

From CNN: "The "no-fly" list includes individuals' names, dates of birth, nationalities and passport numbers. " This suggests the book author is being targeted specifically - that the no-fly list is really a partisan political-enemies list. (As if putting all those peace group membership lists on it hadn't already made it crystal clear that the no-fly list is about political harassment, rather than fighting terrorism).

By: rougy

rougy — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:58:56 -0800

Stuff like this happens, and Bush expects us to trust him with wire-tapping. My god, our country has become a joke. A frieghtening joke.

By: squirrel

squirrel — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 19:21:25 -0800

A joke that carries freight?

By: -harlequin-

-harlequin- — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 19:43:48 -0800

Squirrel: More like baggage.

By: Heywood Mogroot

Heywood Mogroot — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 20:04:33 -0800

This is how the Cube was created...

By: onegreeneye

onegreeneye — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 20:23:19 -0800

re "From CNN: "The "no-fly" list includes individuals' names, dates of birth, nationalities and passport numbers. " Yes, but what happens is this: Your passport # is not immediately checked, instead - The automated machine wont give you a boarding pass. Your e-ticket wont give you a boarding pass. You think you're using the wrong credit card or something as there is no explanation. You go to the human (looong line you were trying to avoid by using e-tickets or the self print boarding pass thing). The human, who is 19 and stupid, looks at you like you're Bin Laden and calls a supervisor, who vanishes with your passport. The guys with machine guns in camo, who are also 19, arrive. The supervisor tells you you're going to have to have your bags checked physically, then x-rayed in a different machine (at least at Sea Tac) from the other luggage. THEN you go through the regular xray. THEN at the gate the camo guy shows up again and stands by while another 19 year old pulls out a porta screen. You stand behind the porta screen and get felt up with a physical pat down. Then you get your passport back, as they've now verified that the # on it is not the same as the bad Nelson David. Then you get on the plane and people look at you like you have leprosy. All the time, your wife and kids, who have been with you, don't get the same check over. My money is on Bin Laden putting the no no in the diaper bag.

By: -harlequin-

-harlequin- — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 20:34:28 -0800

Onegreeneye: Ah. Well that's much better then. Good to see they do their very best to keep you occupied while they wait the necessary two hours it takes to deduce the passport number from your passport, in order to cross-reference it and clear you. I was losing faith there for a moment.

By: bshort

bshort — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 20:37:11 -0800

Does anyone know of a web-based list of No Fly List names? I'm thinking of something where someone who finds out they're on the list can post their name.

By: Talez

Talez — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 21:48:52 -0800

Everyone should change their name to George Walker Bush. Geez. So obvious.

By: rhiannon

rhiannon — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 21:53:20 -0800

What happens when someone doesn't have a passport and their name shows up on the No Fly list? Or when the name on the no-fly list doesn't have a passport associated with it? A lot of Americans don't bother to get passports because they don't travel internationally. The date of birth is still a point of disambiguation. I bet people in this circumstance still have to deal with even more crap though.

By: hortense

hortense — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 21:57:17 -0800

Too bad fortunate son author, Jim Hatfield, isn't on the list.

By: Mr Stickfigure

Mr Stickfigure — Thu, 05 Jan 2006 22:34:52 -0800

Talez: No good. That name's probably on the list. After all you can look on the internets and find that it matches a known terrorist. Plus, I bet that they use a different list when deciding which of the passengers on Air Force One need a cavity search.

By: srboisvert

srboisvert — Fri, 06 Jan 2006 02:01:38 -0800

My god, our country has become a joke. Who knew that the pursuit of liberty was so that it could be killed?

By: Chunder

Chunder — Fri, 06 Jan 2006 02:34:32 -0800

Are there any indications what this debacle is doing to tourism in America? It's definitely no longer on my list of "places I must visit"...

By: dhartung

dhartung — Fri, 06 Jan 2006 02:37:42 -0800

All you people saying that your spouses are getting through without being searched should be on that list, because you're revealing valuable intelligence to the enemy. Tautology? What's that?

By: dhartung

dhartung — Fri, 06 Jan 2006 02:45:04 -0800

Chunder: International Arrivals declined 20% after September 11, but in 2005 probably cracked the pre-2001 record of 51 million. Much of the fall, and subsequent rise, is probably directly related to the economy.

By: nofundy

nofundy — Fri, 06 Jan 2006 05:59:42 -0800

Dear ~~Bob~~God, Please have these names added to the TSA No-fly list: Bill O'Reilly Ann Coulter Sean Hannity Jonah Goldberg Rush Limbaugh Paris Hilton Tom Cruise Tom Freidman Pat Robertson Jerry Falwell Thank you and amen.

By: gman

gman — Fri, 06 Jan 2006 06:13:07 -0800

"The "no-fly" list includes individuals' names, dates of birth, nationalities and passport numbers. " This suggests the book author is being targeted specifically - that the no-fly list is really a partisan political-enemies list. i am on the no-fly list because my name is the same as this man's, save for the 'khan' part. nevermind the fact that i am canadian by birth, at least 50 years younger and of comletely different roots. whenever "they" pull me in for questioning they always have an amazon printout similar to the one i linked. first question has to do with whether or not i know the book, 'Arabic Script: Styles, Variants, and Calligraphic Adaptations' and then after i say "no", they then ask me if i wrote it.

By: cps

cps — Fri, 06 Jan 2006 09:47:49 -0800

They have...an Amazon printout? Fair makes you wonder what their research methods consist of. "We just got the passenger list faxed, quick Bill, go Google these folks." God help us all when they find out about usenet.

By: onegreeneye

onegreeneye — Fri, 06 Jan 2006 10:37:46 -0800

"All you people saying that your spouses are getting through without being searched should be on that list, because you're revealing valuable intelligence to the enemy. posted by dhartung at 2:37 AM PST on January 6" Any "enemy" with half a brain could stand at the airport and watch this go on all day. Go to the seperate xray machine and watch who they xray "specially", or the gate and watch who they pat down, then notice that the pack o' family traveling with that person isn't also checked over. It's not rocket science. Any dork with a magazine sitting in a chair in an airport can observe this.

By: mewithoutyou

mewithoutyou — Fri, 06 Jan 2006 17:21:47 -0800

I should probably warn my cousin (James Moore, naturally).

By: longsleeves

longsleeves — Fri, 06 Jan 2006 17:58:32 -0800

Who knew that the pursuit of liberty was so that it could be killed? Or that the liberty-killing persue-ers would be so knowing?

By: Mitheral

Mitheral — Mon, 09 Jan 2006 07:27:29 -0800

Chunder writes "It's definitely no longer on my list of 'places I must visit'..." The US fell off that list for me when they started deporting Canadians to fricken' Syria.