Defense of Bill Cosby

January 19, 2006 12:20 PM

Defense of Bill Cosby [...]My crimes that afternoon were two. I committed the transgression of wearing a tweed jacket, black sweater, black slacks and glasses, a no-no for the “ thug barbers" there because to be an appropriate African American by their standards was to wear saggy pants, sport jerseys and doo-rag caps. My second transgression was to bring a book, James Baldwin’s Notes of A Native Son.
posted by Postroad (88 comments total)

Wow. Great piece.
posted by kgasmart at 12:27 PM on January 19, 2006

I don't know that this is any different from the bullying of studious 'nerdy' people among any other group, although it does have the added implication that it makes you a 'traitor,' to your background, but that seems more a class-based antagonism to 'putting on airs.'

The behavior is not that mysterious. These are just people not aliens or lab rats.
posted by jonmc at 12:30 PM on January 19, 2006

I think Mr. Lashley's points are not emblematic of just the black community, but anti-intellectualism as a whole. As a white person, I'm sure if I went into my childhood barber shop with anything about Sports Illustrated I would have recieved trouble for it.

On a different note, it's somewhat ironic that gangster rap is probably one of the most widely adopted aspects of black culture by the white community, and I would posture that Lashley is indeed more black (in the sense of exclusivity) than the gangster lifestyle the barber shop was pushing forward. I see less white people reading about race relations and more white people imitiating gangster rap. Funny if you think about it, making fun of him for being white while he's probably more black than they are. Actually it makes the terms "white" and "black" seem absurd, but that's for another post.
posted by geoff. at 12:32 PM on January 19, 2006

This is interesting: On September 2002, a mother of five in Baltimore who took on a personal crusade to fight drug dealers had her house firebombed by those same drug dealers, killing her and her children. Later that week, Jesse Jackson and various black leaders had press conferences, not about the brutal murder that happened, but about their protest of the movie Barbershop. If you can’t see what is wrong with that, go straight to hell.

I think that Lashley's point about leadership, and lack of or misuse of it, is an important one and reaches far further than just the black community. Say what you will about Bush: even if you're a supporter of his policies, it's hard to imagine a man less capable of inspiring others to greatness. It seems to me that more and more we are wandering through an age where there are no leaders pointing the way, no grand visions. When my parents tell me about JFK instituting the Peace Corps, the announced space missions and the clear objective of putting a man on the moon, and just the general feeling of this age of a great push to improve the world, and explore it, I get sort of angered and depressed that there seems to no longer be that large-scale push for dramatic progress. Without the inspiration to achieve and to continue to progress, as a society, we fall back on instinctual hoarding and self-preservation. Just look at the title of that recent 50 Cent movie: Get Rich of Die Trying. It's not just a black ethos. It's becoming America's ethos.
posted by billysumday at 12:44 PM on January 19, 2006

I don't know that this is any different from the bullying of studious 'nerdy' people among any other group

Well, the shooting part is kind of different, unless you had Pol Pot in mind.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 12:47 PM on January 19, 2006

I think Mr. Lashley's points are not emblematic of just the black community, but anti-intellectualism as a whole. As a white person, I'm sure if I went into my childhood barber shop with anything about Sports Illustrated I would have recieved trouble for it.

Anti-intellectual sneering is a little different than "fuck you, nigga." But hey, just keep acting like crack isn't destroying the black community, how there are no black role models other than misogynist rappers or basketball players, and how black college enrollment has been on the decline since Clinton left office. And let's not pull out the FBI Uniform Crime Report again.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 12:47 PM on January 19, 2006

There are black role models other than misogynist rappers or basketball players. Where are you looking?
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:52 PM on January 19, 2006

But hey, just keep acting like crack isn't destroying the black community, how there are no black role models other than misogynist rappers or basketball players, and how black college enrollment has been on the decline since Clinton left office.

*pats head*

yes, TJH, we're are all part of the Big Racist Conspiracy. We meet in the basement of a Denny's every second Thursday at midnight.

Seriously, though, it's more a more intense version of the anti-illectualism in society at large, but that's got more to with economics than anything else. So, the headscratching at the "mysterious ways of these people' is kind of unneccessary and if you ask me, a bit insulting.
posted by jonmc at 12:54 PM on January 19, 2006

Billysumday: Your post reminds me of several sectrions from Freidman's new book "The World is Flat"; It would probably only serve to aggravate you further though.
posted by WetherMan at 12:54 PM on January 19, 2006

I liked the piece, but can someone explain why this guy's blog is called "Literary Thug?"
posted by rxrfrx at 12:55 PM on January 19, 2006

So, the headscratching at the "mysterious ways of these people' is kind of unneccessary and if you ask me, a bit insulting.

The determination to write off the concerns this writer expresses as "headscratching over the mysterious ways of these people" is puzzling, and a bit delusional.

Of course anti-intellectualism wasn't invented by the people in his barber shop. But the problems he's describing happen to be a bit more intense than the general population's anti-intellectualism, as Kirth Gerson points out.
posted by ibmcginty at 12:59 PM on January 19, 2006

The determination to write off the concerns this writer expresses as "headscratching over the mysterious ways of these people" is puzzling, and a bit delusional.

I was more refferring to the overweening earnestness of TJH's post and comments than the piece itself.
posted by jonmc at 1:00 PM on January 19, 2006

I think there's a difference between general anti-intellectualism and the broadly violent attitudes of gangsta culture. This is racial to the extent that gangsta culture is identified with blacks. But the reality is that these misanthropic youth can be any race.
posted by alms at 1:11 PM on January 19, 2006

alms: thanks for expressing in three sentences what I couldn't seem to get across in two separate comments.
posted by jonmc at 1:14 PM on January 19, 2006

Going back to the question of black role models, it's problematic that the kind of people held up as examples for young black people are typically sports stars and rappers. Now, there is some value, I'm sure, to these kinds of examples, but there are very few role models who have succeeded because of their intellect and hard work. Real black role models should be people like Benjamin Carson, Mae Jemison, Condi Rice, Robert L. Johnson, Kenneth Chenault, and Glenn Loury. If you don't the names without having to use Google, then my point is made.
posted by marcusb at 1:15 PM on January 19, 2006

oh SNAP.
posted by dobie at 1:18 PM on January 19, 2006

If you don't the names without having to use Google, then my point is made.

Well, there have always been people who would be good role models of any race, but ask yourself this, at 15, di you want to be Paul Krugman or David Lee Roth?

My point being is that, generally speaking, young people are attracted to sex, power and flash, regardless of what else you might put in front of them.
posted by jonmc at 1:19 PM on January 19, 2006

I'm not sure I'd hold up Condaleeza Rice as a role model for young black people, or anybody. She is evil, after all.
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:20 PM on January 19, 2006

There is always conflict between what we want to be and what is expected of us from others. You can also add the conspiratorial argument of how there always seem to be gun and liquor stores strategically placed in predominantly ethnic neighborhoods. Sometimes it almost seems like we spend half the time being sabotaged externally, and the other half sabotaging ourselves internally. And it's not just black people...it's like that for everyone. You get an education and dress like a professional, you're a sellout and a house n*gga. You wear doo-rags, sports jerseys and "bling", you're keepin' it real until you get killed because you're "claiming the wrong set".

Sometimes I wonder if the whole theory of psyops manipulating the ethnic communities to self-destruct isn't just a clever cover story to conceal the fact that we do it to ourselves, given enough time and space. Human beings can't ever be happy just learning and evolving. There is always a desire for conflict, possibly based on a need for self-validation through primal qualification ("trial by fire").

Keepin' it real...going eXtreme. Same thing.
posted by deusdiabolus at 1:20 PM on January 19, 2006

But the reality is that these misanthropic youth can be any race.

That may be true but it kind of misses the point. On my reading, the author is under no illusions that these values and attitudes exist and always have done.

What bothers him, I think, is the way that they've come to totally dominate an institution that has long been central in local communities.

And while you might take some gentle ribbing if you walked into a British barbershop with a copy of War and Peace rather than Big Jugs under your arm, it wouldn't come from the barber, and it's unlikely that it would be uncontested.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:20 PM on January 19, 2006

There is always conflict between what we want to be and what is expected of us from others. You can also add the conspiratorial argument of how there always seem to be gun and liquor stores strategically placed in predominantly ethnic neighborhoods. Sometimes it almost seems like we spend half the time being sabotaged externally, and the other half sabotaging ourselves internally. And it's not just black people...it's like that for everyone. You get an education and dress like a professional, you're a sellout and a house n*gga. You wear doo-rags, sports jerseys and "bling", you're keepin' it real until you get killed because you're "claiming the wrong set".

Sometimes I wonder if the whole theory of psyops manipulating the ethnic communities to self-destruct isn't just a clever cover story to conceal the fact that we do it to ourselves, given enough time and space. Human beings can't ever be happy just learning and evolving. There is always a desire for conflict, possibly based on a need for self-validation through primal qualification ("trial by fire").

Keepin' it real...going eXtreme. Same thing.
posted by deusdiabolus at 1:20 PM on January 19, 2006

I'm trying to remember who my white role models were while growing up.
posted by bardic at 1:30 PM on January 19, 2006

There are black role models other than misogynist rappers or basketball players.

Yes, but how many of those role models are being shoved into the faces of our youth via television, radio and print on a daily basis, not just in the ads but in the news reports as well?

...why..."Literary Thug"?

I'm going to assume that is an acknowledgement of his being an intelligent, educated, well-read person who enjoys literary pursuits (such as writing his blog) who is confronted regularly by people who see that he is African-American and, therefore, instantly assume he is a thug.

- - -

Incidentally, this post and the comments in this thread (for the most part, esp. the early ones) are the reason I still come to Metafilter. Great post.
posted by davejay at 1:30 PM on January 19, 2006

Ok, it looks to me like I'm the first one that gets to say it - and probably the last. Thank God, finally a "Black Problem" that I'm not going to get blamed for.

America, as a whole, is gripped in a victim mentality. It's always, always somebody else's fault, and at when no easy target is in view, "I was a victim of circumstance."

Uh huh. I'm 250 pounds because I was placed in the vicinity of a store that sells Ho-Hos and Pepsi. And every one of those damned convenience stores sell cigarettes to me, and now I can't go into bars in New Jersey.

Waah.

As the White Devil, I couldn't possibly have turned these upstanding, fine young African-Americans into the monsters they have become, and as the White Devil I am in absolutely no position to do anything about it.

Nor, frankly, am I inclined to do so. I'm the bad guy. I'm the Evil One, the Oppressor, even though I've never been anyone's 'boss,' nor even said a discouraging word to someone. I'm white, so I'm the root of all damned evil personally.

The man's welcome to come down to my local "stylist" - never heard anybody bitch anybody out about what they read or wear over there. I wonder why that is? Really. Why don't I hear Antony say, "Yo, goombah, why're you reading that book?"

What is it about us Evil, Oppressive, Horrible White People that the Good, Virtuous, Wonderful, Martyred Black people cannot find in themselves to keep their own common courtesy in place - even among other Good, Virtuous, Wonderful, Martyred Black people?

I've been slapped around with accusations for 40-some years and at this point even this fat bastard has run out of cheeks to turn. Your Problem. Not Mine. I didn't cause it, I didn't endorse it, I didn't fan it, I didn't bake it, and I'm sure as hell not going to buy a piece to lighten your load.
posted by Perigee at 1:31 PM on January 19, 2006

Excellent article.

*hides Cyprus Hill CD*
posted by Smedleyman at 1:31 PM on January 19, 2006

Okay, jonmc, you were targeting TheJesse.

Andrew Sullivan had an annoyingly titled, interesting bit on humor and cultural differences today.

Cultural differences are real, and great, except when they're not so great.

the reality is that these misanthropic youth can be any race.

True, but I think the author's point is that in many majority-black areas, the views of misanthropic youth seem to be loud, violent, and belligerent enough to try to crowd out all other views.
posted by ibmcginty at 1:32 PM on January 19, 2006

*puts on football helmet*
posted by jonmc at 1:33 PM on January 19, 2006

If Lashley's anecdote really is indicative of some kind of huge problem in the African-American community--and generally, the statistics don't support that hypothesis (see Ta-Nehisi Coates's excellent articles on why Bill Cosby was so wrong: 1, 2, 3)--it's worth pointing out that it's not really the place of middle-class white people to speak on it except as it directly relates to the middle-class white commnunity.
posted by maxreax at 1:33 PM on January 19, 2006

Perigee, you're apparently still smarting from something obnoxious someone said to you 40 years ago. Let it go.

Yes, some annoying people think that white people are by definition oppressors; some other annoying people think that black people are inferior. Don't let their views color, or predetermine, your reaction to every discussion about race.
posted by ibmcginty at 1:35 PM on January 19, 2006

angry white guy stuff
posted by Perigee at 1:31 PM PST on January 19

And yet despite all that shit it's still way easier to be a white guy than a black guy, all things considered. You'll live.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 1:35 PM on January 19, 2006

Nice reverse victimization, Perigree. And I echo what Alms said.
posted by boo_radley at 1:35 PM on January 19, 2006

I think that's consensus on Perigree, if nothing else. Little steps, people. Little steps.
posted by boo_radley at 1:36 PM on January 19, 2006

it's worth pointing out that it's not really the place of middle-class white people to speak on it except as it directly relates to the middle-class white commnunity.

people just don't know their place, I guess, mxreax, what can I tell ya?

I'm exaggerating to make a point, but people are going to see things and react to what they see and make their reactions known. That's just kind of a given, and rebuking anyone for that is sort of futile.

Besides, in this media saturated world we live in, it'd be near impossible to keep any internicene squabble 'in the family.'
posted by jonmc at 1:37 PM on January 19, 2006

Sorry this wasn't part of my previous post, hit submit too early

My point being is that, generally speaking, young people are attracted to sex, power and flash, regardless of what else you might put in front of them.

True, but that's as much a societally-driven attraction as anything else; witness the long-standing (but recently lapsing, apparently) celebration of engineering, ingenuity and hard work among youth in certain asian countries, esp. after World War II when adults with those skills/traits did so much to bring their countries into the global marketplace.

When a society truly values something, the youth of that society will pick up on it and strive to achieve it in order to get the sex and power that they want; in other words, if we all celebrated teachers as the most powerful, important and well-paid people in our society, children would for the most part idolize teachers, both as a means of obtaining the same power and money and due to the influence of radio, television and print.
posted by davejay at 1:37 PM on January 19, 2006

That was a really interesting read, and I'm sorry to see so many people here seemed to have missed the guy's point, or - worse still - are acting there's no point to be made.

In the late 1980s, at the height of The Cosby Show's fame BTW (which may or may not be coincidence), there was a huge movement in the black community - no only in the US, but certainly in Canada at least, as well - to "uplift the race".

It was a boom time for consciousness, and it was considered cool to be conscious (or a herb, I guess) - that is: a) to have a racial consciousness; and b) to employ that consciousness to advance the community as a whole. Public Enemy was on top, and 50 Cent would've been laughed out of the place had he shown up at the time. People wore Africa pendants and materialism was seen to be a mug's game. To some extent, admittedly, this was style over substance - but there was a substance. Even in just wearing an X cap.

In a brief span of about 15 years, that seems like another whole universe now. There's no denying that change happened. It may have been a pendulum effect, it may have been a conspiracy, it may have been fashion, I don't know. But to act like this article is nothing more than essentially jocks vs. nerds is missing the boat like showing up to get on the Titanic in 2006.
posted by stinkycheese at 1:38 PM on January 19, 2006

And yet despite all that shit it's still way easier to be a white guy than a black guy, all things considered.

I dunno. I'd much rather be Michael Jordan or Chris Rock, than jonmc, underpaid office worker. But in general, that's still true, I'll grant you.
posted by jonmc at 1:38 PM on January 19, 2006

But to act like this article is nothing more than essentially jocks vs. nerds is missing the boat like showing up to get on the Titanic in 2006.

It's a more intense version of what's happening in society as a whole. Mainstream culture is infested with superficiality and materialism right now, too. Why should black culture neccessarily be any different.

Nobody's writing anything off, or at least I'm not.
posted by jonmc at 1:40 PM on January 19, 2006

Yeah - absolutely it is easier; not vastly easier, because anyone here would pretty much agree that for the past 15 years or so it's more a have-have not disparity of classes instead of black-white disparity of classes.

The problem is, I don't have much, but because most of those that do are white, so I suck. Angry White Guy stuff is valid, whether you like it or not. There may well be some in here who grew up outside my window of experience (on the low side) who have never had to put up with this kind of junk, but deal with the fact older folks have.

If for no other reason than if you want change from anybody over 30, I'm your problem. You want to deny my experience, then deny that there were segregated bathrooms. All the problems don't come from one side. Sometimes, the blowback of anger of generation 1 hits generation 2 and after a while generation 3 has to deal with the fact that the milk of human kindness has been spoiled for a season.
posted by Perigee at 1:46 PM on January 19, 2006

i think those of you who are saying the behavior this author describes is little different from anti-intellectualism found in any group are completely wrong.

growing up as a skinny, bookish kid in south florida, i was teased by both blacks and whites for being nerdy.

i was also accused by both blacks and whites of not really being black because i always had a book in my hand, spoke standard english without peppering my speech with the latest urban slang, and didn't wear the right outfits (though that was more a function of my poverty than tastes in clothing: as soon as i got a job and spending money of my own, i blew a lot of it on "stylish" clothing).

there was a very different flavor to the two teasings: when my peers in the projects teased me for being nerdy there often was an undertone of grudging respect. looking back, it saddens me, because i think that respect stemmed from a feeling that i was accomplishing things they were incapable of (a lot of rappers talk about how they heard "he's incompetent, not able to learn" in school, and i can attest that it did, and probably does, happen.)

with the whites, there was an extra note of amusement at the idea that not only was i a nerd, i was a black nerd...which actually made their teasing about nerdiness a lot like their teasing about my non-blackness.

with the "you're not really black" teasing, there was an undertone of "we are a persecuted people who should be united, and by choosing not to act like the rest of us, you're invalid and you're invalidating us" from the blacks and a "you strange creature, whatever shall we do with you?" from the whites. both of these implied assessments were extremely hurtful -- ironically, it hurt more when it came from white people who were my friends and who thought they were paying me a compliment.

since graduating from college, i've worn dreads, and i haven't gone to a black barbershop. i bet if i went to one in the old neighborhood, i'd have an experience a lot like the author in the linked piece.

a final note: i'm sick to fucking death of jesse jackson and al sharpton. they've stayed on the stage long after their parts in the play ended, and they need to take their bows -- they had some great moments -- so that the story can be taken in a new direction.
posted by lord_wolf at 1:47 PM on January 19, 2006

i was also accused by both blacks and whites of not really being black because i always had a book in my hand,

this rings sadly true to me. so many people (especially white people who probably think of themselves as non-racist) still have preconcieved notions of what a black person should be.

I also always carried a book around when I was young but it was usually something weird, and since I like beer, pot and heavy metal as much as my lowlife friends they actually found it kind of fascinating. I do remember some annoying preppy girl making fun of me for reading Discover magazine in 6th grade, though (I had a subscription).
posted by jonmc at 1:52 PM on January 19, 2006

Can I mention something else? (jonmc - keep your football helmet on. actually, do you have another one for me?)

One big problem even this middle-class white guy can see in the black community is single mothers and missing fathers. I know it's horribly conservative and cliche to mention, but somebody earlier asked the the question of who their white role models were when growing up. Well, for me it was my father, my brother, my teachers, my grandparents. I mean, I don't think that I had one person, black or white, who I thought: ok, I want to be like that. But I certainly did think, "oh, I'm glad my dad isn't Jimmy's dad because, he's a drunk," or "I'm glad my dad isn't Peter's dad, because he's never around." I certainly thought that. No matter what your color, having a solid family and a stable environment is incredibly important for children. Obviously I'm not saying that broken families are doomed or that people can't become amazing, moral, awesome people if they come from a non-nuclear family.

Also, my mother and my father taught me more than I ever learned in school. How to read, how to be inquisitive, how to have manners, how to treat other people, how to cook, all that stuff. Of course, like everyone else, I don't really have any suggestion or idea of how to fix the problem but I really doubt that until you do, the problems that the black community faces will not fix themselves.

Also: good point, stikycheese.
posted by billysumday at 1:52 PM on January 19, 2006

I'm not sure I'd hold up Condaleeza Rice as a role model for young black people, or anybody. She is evil, after all.

Thereby proving that evil isn't just for white people!
posted by kindall at 1:54 PM on January 19, 2006

stinky's not entirely wrong. some of the peeves of the Angry White Male are legitamite (hell, I probably qualify as an Angry White Guy), but they're being co-opted by a bunch of right-wing stooges who care little for them.
posted by jonmc at 1:55 PM on January 19, 2006

As the White Devil, I couldn't possibly have turned these upstanding, fine young African-Americans into the monsters they have become...

Potential trolling aside, consider that it may not be YOU, the modern-day "white devil", that is the problem. It is, instead, hundreds of years of our European ancestors enslaving and oppressing Africans that led to a society that, until very recently, made it illegal to teach an African-American to read or write.

If you are raised by someone who cannot read or write, and if the educational opportunities afforded to you are limited, how many generations need to go by before your descendants can achieve parity within society?

When asking yourself this, assume the following: #1: Children probably learn their study habits and basic skills at home rather than at school (certainly my experience as a middle class white guy), and those habits/skills significantly impact your ability to learn and grow through the educational system, and #2: African-American children are, in the absence of community-specific peer pressure and other societal pressures for African-Americans not to succeed, equally intelligent and equally motivated to learn as European-American children are.

I would imagine it would still take a couple of generations before African-Americans learned the study habits and basic skills and started passing them down to their children, and that's a best-case scenario.

So when you look at the situation as it really is (instead of ideally should be), is it really surprising that so many African-American people have rejected participation in a race that they can't win within their lifetime, and have instead elected to focus on short-term gratification (money, power, sex, etc.) regardless of the consequences to the community as a whole?

Incidentally, that question isn't intended to suggest that they're foolish for making that choice, or that European-Americans in the same situation would have acted differently. I have certainly known plenty of white folks who live under far better circumstances, who have opportunity, money and education, yet elect to throw their lives away on drugs and wasted labors.
posted by davejay at 1:56 PM on January 19, 2006

stinky's not entirely wrong.

Thanks jon, that made my day.
posted by stinkycheese at 1:57 PM on January 19, 2006

Not being black, I'll forego many comments on the article, as I would probably echo what others have said. I think that much of what is interpreted as 'racism' is in fact 'culturalism'. I am as uncomfortable with white 'gangstas' as I am with black, and think that its is as destructive a 'world-view' as has ever existed in my experience. (bitches, bling, etc) Perhaps I'm just more comfortable with black who act 'white,' and am no different than anyone else.

The one thing I do know, is that its going to be hard for us all to get past this racial thing until we stop thinking and expressing ourselves using such terms as 'black role models' or 'white role models' and just start thinking about 'good role models'. Its pervasive, practiced by as many blacks as whites, yellows, and greens including those whose actions prove a lack of racism.

Not an original or overly insightfulful set of comments, I know.
posted by sfts2 at 2:00 PM on January 19, 2006

It's worth pointing out that it's not really the place of middle-class white people to speak on it except as it directly relates to the middle-class white commnunity.

Next you'll be telling us that black folks ain't got place messin' in white folks bizness.

But I'm glad to learn that those bucks aren't all doing it on the down-low.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 2:01 PM on January 19, 2006

Interesting article. Reading it, and the comments here, especially the ones about the 80's era style of black consciousness, reminded me of this article:

Rise of the Black Nerd
posted by cell divide at 2:07 PM on January 19, 2006

it's not really the place of middle-class white people to speak on it

Except that they are part of the problem too. They are just as caught up in the myth that the problem is purely one of victimization and are just as guilty of criticizing a messenger like Bill Cosby who points out that the emperor wears no clothes. Cosby never claimed that the problems of the Black community were not rooted in racism. He just said that the community can't sit around and wait for their oppressors to give it up, but have to make their own way in the face of the oppression. It's en extra burden, fair or not, which they will have to overcome and others aren't going to do it for them. The gangsta lifestyle is the essence of defeatism. Living it soothes your own defeat, gives you cover. Bill's message is a message of hope, that the community can overcome their oppression and thrive, but to do so they have to reject the defeatists like the gangsta culture and value those who struggle to succeed, not those who have thrown in the towel. At least, this is the message I took from what he said. I think it was powerful stuff, and sad that so many people of all colors rejected him out of hand.
posted by caddis at 2:12 PM on January 19, 2006

stinkycheese makes a good point--it's not just smart vs. dumb.

In my decent but hardly exhaustive knoweldge of rap: The reason school teachers aren't held up as models of success isn't because of their brains, it's because of their wallet--a career that tops out at 50K is anathema not due to anti-intellectualism, but due to economics. In the spectrum of dumb rap (50 Cent) to more progressive groups (Roots, Mos Def), the work ethic is the same--work hard, bust your ass, elevate yourself, do what it takes. Thinking of stinkycheese's comment again, it's interesting to think of late 80's/early 90's groups and how they really found their place in terms of uplift and advance--Tribe, PE, Black Sheep, etc.

Maybe this is obvious to most of you but I've always found it interesting. To dismiss rappers as guys who want to circumvent the system is wrong--they want to work hard within their own imagined system, and bust their asses for it. To call them anti-intellectual is silly--they want a form of success that isn't all that different from the same materialism that drives middle class parents to go into debt to send their kids to Ivy League schools.
posted by bardic at 2:22 PM on January 19, 2006

Oh yeah, rap star is a great career goal, just like pro sports star. What happens if you aren't one of the one in ten million who actually succeed?
posted by caddis at 2:32 PM on January 19, 2006

Sorry, Davejay - no troll here. Of course, if we want to talk about sins of the father, how about the English who enslaved my Irish ancestors, forced them to work land stolen by the English in exchange for a 4X4 garden to grown their own food? Or the "NO IRISH NEED APPLY" mentality of the late 1800s-early 1900s...? (Which was MUCH more recent than making it illegal to teach black kids, by the way.) Should I then consider you personally as a target of my ire?

You'd be hard-pressed to find somebody who belongs to any group that didn't feel like somebody screwed 'em over. The Greeks got screwed by the Romans, the Scots by the English, and the English, the French and Italy were poking each other with sticks so often it looked like a 400-year episode of MAD's "Spy VS Spy."

I'm not going to defend the cap-headed weirdness of anybody's ancestors - I can't even defend the moronic junk our generation is doing now, like this jaunt into Iraq on an easter egg hunt for weapons of mass destruction that never were. People -as a group, or set of groups - were, are, and in all probability will continue to act is a manner that borders on the insane.

Hunt them down, dig 'em up and spit on their decomposed faces, for all I care. None of 'em are my relatives. Furthest back we go is a butcher in Baltimore whose shop stood on "Butcher's Hill" No slaves. His son went into real estate and almost had his house burnt down because he displayed the union flag when Maryland was on the brink of seccession. Seven members of the family volunteered to service in the Civil war, and saw most of the action from Gettysburg and after (Maryland troops could not see regular action in the early part of the war - interesting history story there.). So far out - take a group whiz on anybody you can find who ever even took a seat from a black person on a bus.

That being said... not being any of those people, what in God's name have I got to do with any historical crap that I was expected to drag a cross around throughout the seventies and eighties and nineties? And, having drug it around every time somebody decided to shout "bigotry" in a crowded theater, why should I gladly pretend that I'm still not going to get thrashed at as a bad guy at the very earliest opportunity?

"...is it really surprising that so many African-American people have rejected participation in a race that they can't win within their lifetime, and have instead elected to focus on short-term gratification."

- Dude. It's time for people to wake up and smell the burning toast. In case you haven't noticed, black folk aren't the only people that are running a rigged race nowadays. Cuts acrosss the board in education and loans, stagnation of minimum wage, the dying gasps of collective bargaining and the outsourcing of jobs has put Everybody in the same sinking boat. It's not about color... unless that color is green. White Bob and Black Bob are both either going to sink or just barely keep their heads above water... or fly the Concorde.

I am fully educated in a working class job, and guess what - after last years "raise," I took a net loss of in spendable earnings thanks to raises in health care costs. My case IS typical, even for Snow White.

Now... since I can't win in my lifetime, explain to me why I haven't "instead elected to focus on short-term gratification." Should I have?

You assume that they've acted out of being victims. I'm a victim too. No tears for me? Is it... because I'm white?
posted by Perigee at 2:33 PM on January 19, 2006

sfts2, I somewhat agree with you, but I think you need to be careful with your line of thinking. A lot of white people who consider themselves as non-racist as can be will still say or think things like, "I don't have a problem with black people, if they would just get rid of those dreadlocks and get a regular ("white") haircut I would have no problem with them." Which is to say a lot of people claim to not be racist because they don't mind black people as long as they act "white". I don't think this is how you are or what you meant by your post, but I'm saying that a lot of people think this way and are shocked to find, when someone points it out to them, that they actually are racist and didn't know it, albeit only slightly.

I don't think it is racist at all to be at odds with the ignorant thug mentality that some black people have adopted as part of black culture. But it is important to realize that a lot of black people like Cosby and Spike Lee speak out strongly against making ignorance part of black racial identity. And secondly that lots of people, black and white, look thugish and speak like a thug but are actually really nice people if you just talk to them like people.

I'm not saying it isn't difficult. As a white person, when I see a black person dressed like a rap star my brain tries to make that connection. That he's a thug, that revels in the kind of activities that rap stars sing about, drugs, violence, etc. I think it is natural for humans to build up these associations, but my rational thinking slaps my pattern forming and associative thinking on the wrist. Because you just can't judge people like that. It's unfair and frequently false. We all sort of know this in a sterile and logical kind of way, but getting that into your head and your actions isn't so easy.
posted by Farengast at 2:36 PM on January 19, 2006

Dude. It's time for people to wake up and smell the burning toast. In case you haven't noticed, black folk aren't the only people that are running a rigged race nowadays.

I thought I had covered that when I said I knew plenty of whites who had made similar choices despite starting off from a better position -- but since you didn't catch that, figured I'd repeat that here.
posted by davejay at 2:38 PM on January 19, 2006

this guy is emblematic of most of my black friends. i really like this article. I agree with what was mentioned before about this problem not being limited to the black community. ignorance is running rampant amongst our citizens and it is, quite frankly, infuriating. I've been running a one-man boycott against MTV for years because of its idiotic programming and the message of "glory through gangsta" and views of "reality", not to mention their taste in music kinda blows. there was no clear beginning to this problem however, so i cannot see a clear end. the only way to get past this type of blind bigotry is to work together as a society to rid ourselves of it and its ignorance.






...though i doubt i'll ever live to see that day.
posted by Doorstop at 2:40 PM on January 19, 2006

Of course, if we want to talk about sins of the father, how about the English who enslaved my Irish ancestors, forced them to work land stolen by the English in exchange for a 4X4 garden to grown their own food? Or the "NO IRISH NEED APPLY" mentality of the late 1800s-early 1900s...? (Which was MUCH more recent than making it illegal to teach black kids, by the way.) Should I then consider you personally as a target of my ire?

Yeah, I'm Irish-descended as well, and think about that a lot. Nevertheless, our Irish ancestors still had it better; nobody ever forbade 'em by law to be taught to read or write, and nobody ever shackled 'em into the bottom of a slave ship. Certainly if you've spent any time around second-generation Irish (in the United States, at least) there remains a shadow of the persecution complex that they likely picked up from their parents and grandparents.

My point, though, wasn't that they should keep on hating on you; it was that, hating aside, there is a practical reality that some folks have to deal with on a daily basis that comes directly from what all of our ancestors did to one another, and when people feel powerless to change (within their lifetime) the negative effects that persist today, you shouldn't be surprised when they reject the notion that they should try.

And hey, if people also have a lot of unresolved anger towards very real obstacles they face and their inability to get rid of those obstacles, is it surprising if those people channel their anger towards the descendants of those who created the obstacles?

Of course, that assumes they're angry at past transgressions -- which was what my previous post was about. But what about the very real problems of race in America today?

Heck, look into the very recent redlining of districts to forbid African-Americans from obtaining insurance or mortgages. If that had happened to my father and embittered him, you bet I'd be angry today.

Did I mention that to be African-American and driving a nice car in most parts of the United States is to be pulled over on a regular basis, treated like a criminal by default, and occasionaly shot? As a descendent of Irish-Americans, I'll tell you what -- nothing like that has -ever- happened to me.

At some point I should get back to doing my work. Heh., so I'll stop here. Heh.
posted by davejay at 2:51 PM on January 19, 2006

darn that double-heh and my sloppy previewing
posted by davejay at 2:51 PM on January 19, 2006

perigee, in your last post i think you're missing the fact that 1. no one seems to be disputing the idea that racism/sexism/classism/etc exist for lots of people, if not all. and that such idealogies are universaly bad
and 2. you bring up the irish experience and the part you are missing is that you COULD hide being irish and it was a lot easier to integrate into "regular" society. a more fitting example would be the experience of asian americans, and if you look at that, you'll see a similar lack of real integration into society.
and even that falls short. people hated the irish (and the italians and the whoever was in vogue to hate at the time throughout the history of america), but they did not think of them as animals or completly subhuman. yet those assumptions were a drving force in the theories behind the slavery of africans in america. its a much harder hurdle to overcome, and the fact is that the institutions that were set up while this thinking was going on, are still pushing down on the current situation.

racism is still a huge force today and its sad that people like you want to boil it down to your personal experience (which may very well be similar and equally as bad) to that of the institutionalized general experience of an entire group of people.
posted by teishu at 3:09 PM on January 19, 2006

Farengast,

I totally agree. I am just uncomfortable making the statement I made without acknowledging that perhaps I am just more comfortable with folks that are more like me. Trying to be intellectually honest. For me, my discomfort (which I don't think is abnormal for my white. suburban, middle/upper class, 'educated' demographic) relates not at all to the external manifestations of the culture. I don't care about hair, clothes (except I don't like kids not tucking their shirts in or wearing their caps backwards etc when I'm coaching basketball) or anything else. So, as a part-time basketball coach, I am around 'the culture' a fair amount. To me, its more substantial, can you communicate in society, do you value things of true value, and do you have/embrace integrity, respect others etc. I can't stand to hear kids call girls 'bitches,' or use street slang when its not appropriate, or talk about capping guys for perceived slights, and glorifying hard drug use. To me these are substantive issues, and the type of thing that Cosby was alluding to, which I tend to agree with.
posted by sfts2 at 3:10 PM on January 19, 2006

and sorry, the spell checker wasn't working when i just posted.
posted by teishu at 3:13 PM on January 19, 2006

Hunt them down, dig 'em up and spit on their decomposed faces, for all I care. None of 'em are my relatives. Furthest back we go is a butcher in Baltimore whose shop stood on "Butcher's Hill" No slaves. His son went into real estate and almost had his house burnt down because he displayed the union flag when Maryland was on the brink of seccession.

It's not (necessarily) whether or not your ancestors owned slaves. You (and most black folks) are living in a country where the repercussions of slavery are still felt. Your whiteness, whether or not you like it, gives you an unfair advantage over a huge portion of the US population. This has as much to do with the present as it does with the past.
posted by maxreax at 3:13 PM on January 19, 2006

There are black role models other than misogynist rappers or basketball players. Where are you looking?

I would follow Barak Obama wherever he leads. I've been jaded by the two-party system but Mr. Obama has integrity and is honest and intelligent. He's an activist first, politician second.
posted by pelican at 3:33 PM on January 19, 2006

At this point I would like to propose that these issues are so convoluted the best solution is intermarriage. Get to it, people.

Snark aside, I think davejay is on to something about the roll of teachers in society contributing to anti-intellectualism. So many schools are preparatory mind numbing for the "make ends meet then die" existence is it any wonder people resent the "intellectualism" they've been exposed to?
posted by Richard Daly at 3:33 PM on January 19, 2006

On re-reading what I wrote, it sounds like I've got something against teachers as a group. I don't. Schools as a group... maybe.
posted by Richard Daly at 3:37 PM on January 19, 2006

Speaking as a white person, I have no sympathy for white people. Life is hard for everyone, but in America being the normative ethnicity is an advantage, pure and simple. My first comment above, i.e. "I can't remember my white role-models" was snark, but also gets to the core issue--whiteness means you pass with no questions and no special expectations. It's weird to think that black people should have their own special role-models, but it's more often whites asking who these people are rather than blacks themselves.

Nobody likes someone who sits around all day and complains they're being oppressed, but IRL, I've never met a member of a minority who does this--it's up there with the "welfare mother" myth. Most people are trying to make it through a lot of different garbage, but racism strikes me as something that a modern culture still needs to work on as much as possible.

Or, what maxreax said.
posted by bardic at 3:37 PM on January 19, 2006

I dunno. I'd much rather be Michael Jordan or Chris Rock, than jonmc, underpaid office worker. But in general, that's still true, I'll grant you.
posted by jonmc at 1:38 PM PST on January 19

Are you worse off than a one-legged busboy?
posted by Optimus Chyme at 3:41 PM on January 19, 2006

Role model is kind of a weird term, ultimately. Patterning your whole life on someone else is not something a lot of people do regardless of how much they admire someone. I idolize Bruce Springsteen, but I ain't moving to Jersey.

I'm very much a pro-work ethic, up-by-the-bootstraps guy and I have little patience with those who blame personal failings on others, too.

That said, it's ridiculous to deny that there are some circumstances unique to black people. Yes, white immigrant groups suffered and were often dicrimitated against, and that sucks and was wrong. But, first off, black people didn't have a choice in whether to come here, unlike us, who even if we were chased here with our asses on fire, still chose to come here. Most black people I know are as pro-American dream/work ethic as they come, but they've only recently begun to be admitted to that society. I'm the furthest thing from an excuse maker in this world, but that's just a simple fact.
posted by jonmc at 3:48 PM on January 19, 2006

I just want to wrigh in that I think this has been a much better thread than previous ones dealing with these issues. Less knee-jerk, more politeness, a lot of different takes bouncing around. Go mefi.
posted by es_de_bah at 4:46 PM on January 19, 2006

In the late 1980s... Public Enemy was on top, and 50 Cent would've been laughed out of the place had he shown up at the time.

You have a very subjective view of history. I remember that MC Hammer was the first rapper to hit No. 1 on Billboard Singles chart. He wore huge gold chains and ridiculous pants.

Public Enemy was certainly a cultural phenomenon, but to say they were "on top," is ludicrous. There are far more "progressive" rappers today then there were back then.

Are you worse off than a one-legged busboy?

Fantastic koan, there.

I thought Lashley's piece was mostly empty rhetoric and pointless bluster about getting made fun of at a place where he has traditionally been accepted. Victor Plenty makes an excellent point in comment #2:

This is bigger than Bill Cosby, and even bigger than the African-American community. Every racial group has a subclass of mindless thugs with growing cultural influence, telling all of our young people it's not cool to read, not cool to learn, and not cool to do honest work. Every racial group has an expanding clique of entertainers who glorify the pimp, the drug dealer, and every other exploiter, with no concern for who gets hurt by whatever criminal activity brings in the "bling bling."

Like many other social ills, this disease has been hitting our society hard and early in the black communities. Not because black people are somehow inherently more susceptible, but because leaders of both left and right have consistently neglected (and in many cases actively undermined) the health of the black community.
posted by mrgrimm at 4:58 PM on January 19, 2006

[good post]

billsumday: It's not just a black ethos. It's becoming America's ethos.

And if you do a bit of travelling, you'll realize that it's rapidly becoming a global ethos, thanks to the Sony Corporation and the omnipresence of mTV. Whatever 'black urban culture' was back in the golden age of 1974/1981/1988, it's now just a set of marketing strategies and off-the-rack accessories to be sold to (mainly non-Black, but often 'ethnic') kids worldwide who want to hang out on street corners and razz anyone who doesn't conform to their narrow expectations of life. MTV-feeds and corporate 'urban' radio stations broadcast an inherently racist simulation of 'blackness', heavily correlated with stupidity, anti-intellectualism, trinket-love and violence -- things (oddly enough) that White racist ideology has traditionally imputed to non-White people. And it makes living in pretty much any first-world city increasingly wearying.

'Street culture', then, is just another manifestation of White-on-Black racism. Just as black-face and coon routines were used to justifiy slavery and Jim Crow, 'gangsta' acts to justify the current American (and, increasingly, first-world) system of urban racial segregation. This is why it's particularly depressing to see white 'progressives' defending it, apparently in the belief that it represents some kind of authentic Black identity.
posted by Sonny Jim at 4:59 PM on January 19, 2006 [1 favorite]

At this point I would like to propose that these issues are so convoluted the best solution is intermarriage. Get to it, people.

I know you're joking, but I must agree completely. To me, "mixed racers" are more attractive and more intelligent. Biodiversity, I suppose.

Snark aside, I think davejay is on to something about the roll of teachers in society contributing to anti-intellectualism. So many schools are preparatory mind numbing for the "make ends meet then die" existence is it any wonder people resent the "intellectualism" they've been exposed to?

Most Americans would say that the point of education is to prepare students for employment. That's not necessary at odds with the anti-intellectual movement. They are teaching rote skills (at the worse schools), not the more important ability to learn.

Imagine how much we've learned about educating children in the past 100 years. Then think about how few changes we've made to the traditional classroom approach. Sad.

on preview: good point, Sonny Jim. "authenticity" is a sham.
posted by mrgrimm at 5:04 PM on January 19, 2006

Yes, hello again to the slimy, loathsome peer pressure of morons. This is not something unique to the poor urban black community.

But hey, just keep acting like crack isn't destroying the black community, how there are no black role models other than misogynist rappers or basketball players

Mmm, mmm. And you just keep making excuses. That helps improve things.

If you are brought up in a community where idiocy is presented as "cool" (and I was), then you have to have the sense to reject the idiocy, or become an idiot. That's the choice. Bottom line. No short cuts out of it. And I know plenty of black people who made it and plenty of white people who didn't. Stop using race as an excuse. In either direction.
posted by Decani at 5:24 PM on January 19, 2006

Well, there have always been people who would be good role models of any race, but ask yourself this, at 15, di you want to be Paul Krugman or David Lee Roth?

I think I wanted to be an unholy amalgam of Douglas Adams, Charles Bukowksi, and Joe Strummer. I have not entirely failed, I suppose. [/tangent]
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:07 PM on January 19, 2006

people hated the irish (and the italians and the whoever was in vogue to hate at the time throughout the history of america), but they did not think of them as animals or completly subhuman

o rly? thx for your insight!!
posted by booksandlibretti at 6:07 PM on January 19, 2006

zing!
posted by Kwantsar at 6:09 PM on January 19, 2006

The fundament (and missing) issue in Lashley's article is that the issue is as much about class as it is race.

I've been this guy, going to get a haircut in some half blown-out neighborhood, just as I've been the guy going into these neighboorhoods to give these kids some sort of meaningful experience during the summer. I too have got the fancy Ivy League pedigree, the international education and then some, but the ISSUE, whether you're going into the hood or Uptown to the white folks' is always one of RESPECT. Mutual respect.

One shouldn't take their 30 year-old romatic notions about what it was like to grow up in such-and-such part of town in the '60's/'70's/80's and expect those depleted romanitc notions to have any currency. The present-day facts on the ground are always and ever just the facts on the ground. This guy's attitude toward his former neighborhood are positively neo-colonial and he has internalized whatever elitist ideas he got while at he was at his intstitutions of higher learning.

People are people, where-ever they are, and they seldom enjoy being talked down to, whatever their station in life. Mr. Lashley ought to appreciate that. It's a fundamental aspect of human nature.
posted by vhsiv at 6:16 PM on January 19, 2006

When I was growing up my "white role models" were folks like Abbie Hoffman, and I worried more about my "Revolutionary Integrity" than fashion, status and possessions. So now I'm still a revolutionarily integral badly-dressed broke-as-shit insignificant net.twit; it works both ways, y'see.
posted by davy at 6:26 PM on January 19, 2006

I've been running a one-man boycott against MTV for years because of its idiotic programming and the message of "glory through gangsta" and views of "reality", not to mention their taste in music kinda blows. there was no clear beginning to this problem however

NWA's, Straight Outta Compton.

Better recognise.

;)
posted by uncanny hengeman at 6:29 PM on January 19, 2006

This guy's attitude toward his former neighborhood are positively neo-colonial and he has internalized whatever elitist ideas he got while at he was at his intstitutions of higher learning.

Yeah, like reading! Fucking elitist!
posted by billysumday at 6:53 PM on January 19, 2006

Lashley's comments encapsulate an attack of anomie: in one moment, in one place, he learned he was alone. He *is* a man without a country (at least for now.) Not only is he an intellectual--a member of a tribe generally despised by our culture these days--he is African-American and doubly despised by his own home folks for "whitiness." He can neither stop being himself--not even by posing as a "Literary Thug" instead of a "Thinking Man"--nor stop being a member of the "black community." His personal gifts suggest to him that he should be a tastemaker, a leader of his society; what could be a more bitter pill than to know one is being rejected by those who should honor him for his gifts. He cannot flee to a "white community, " even to one where his gifts *are* respected. So he is--and he now knows he is--out there. Alone.

Historically, the minstrel show (America's first original contribution to world culture) featured two stereotypical black men: Jim Crow--the dancin', razor-totin', chicken stealin' incorrigible; and Scipio Africanus (from whence "Zip Coon"), the cultivated dandy who spoke the King's English and aspired to emulate white society. It is obvious which character represented the greater threat to the power structure.

In a cheesy Jefferson Airplane song from the Fabulous Sixties that trumpeted "revolution," the lyrics invoked the joy of outlawry in a different context:

We lie, cheat, forge, fuck, hide, and deal
Everything you say we are we are
And we're very proud of ourselves

Thus the "gangsta" shit is no more than another sad example of the oppressed celebrating the stereotype imposed on them by the Powerful by fulfilling the self-fulfilling prophecy, even at the expense of good sense and/or self-preservation. Lashley knows now viscerally that he is a Scipio without honor in a country of Crows. This epiphany must have been devastating.
posted by rdone at 6:56 PM on January 19, 2006 [1 favorite]

Oh yeah, rap star is a great career goal, just like pro sports star. What happens if you aren't one of the one in ten million who actually succeed?

You find a physically fit female "singer" to front the band, and create the Black Eyed Peas.
posted by weston at 7:12 PM on January 19, 2006

In a cheesy Jefferson Airplane song from the Fabulous Sixties that trumpeted "revolution," the lyrics invoked the joy of outlawry in a different context:

We lie, cheat, forge, fuck, hide, and deal
Everything you say we are we are
And we're very proud of ourselves

Also see:

"Fuck tha police
Comin straight from the underground
Young nigga got it bad cuz I'm brown"
posted by uncanny hengeman at 7:20 PM on January 19, 2006

I'm trying to remember who my white role models were while growing up.

Mine was Evel Knievel. Seriously.
posted by mecran01 at 9:31 PM on January 19, 2006

Perigree, it isn't just historical racism and discrimation. It continues today in housing, employment and most of the basics. There were poor whites during slavery, too. It doesn't mean slavery was just a "class thing."

As for bootstraps and Bill Cosby, he is a little right and a little wrong. Sure, personal responsibility is part of it. But societal responsibility is also part of the picture.
posted by Cassford at 9:58 PM on January 19, 2006

The mafia obsession is interesting to me. White role models? Does their colour matter?
Is it so outrageous to suggest that organised crime is endemic throughout the world?
Where is the line between hard-nosed businessman and criminal? In most cases you have to hustle to get ahead. That means someone else is being hustled.
Children are exploited by pop-music, as ever they have been.

There is an enormous global middle class living off the backs of the very poor. Once removed from the thug life.

Illegal business controls America.
Fight the power!
Not capable of coherence at the moment.
posted by asok at 2:52 AM on January 20, 2006

Straight Outta Compton is the only way I test new screen-reading software. They've all failed so far.
posted by NinjaPirate at 3:14 AM on January 20, 2006

Wow, vhsiv, I think you're way off base. You wrote:

The present-day facts on the ground are always and ever just the facts on the ground. This guy's attitude toward his former neighborhood are positively neo-colonial

That attitude is positively amoral. "Hey, facts are facts, nothing else you can say about it!" 50 years ago, Southern culture involved vicious repression of blacks. But that was a bad thing, not something to be respected. Culture is real, culture can change over time, and cultures can be criticized for practices that hurt people.

You also wrote that people anywhere "seldom enjoy being talked down to," but I didn't see the writer in this essay act condescendingly towards anyone... maybe I missed it. Did I miss your larger point?
posted by ibmcginty at 4:41 AM on January 20, 2006

Bamboozled is a great movie that wrestles with these same issues.
posted by sciurus at 10:37 AM on January 20, 2006