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Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither
January 25, 2006 12:46 PM   RSS feed for this thread Subscribe

Mr. Gonzales+ Future Lawyers = Crazy Delicious Civil Disobedience
posted by shoepal (103 comments total)

I wish this would happen at every public appearance any of these asshats make. Unfortunately, they are all probably on some kind of list now.
posted by Mr_Zero at 12:57 PM on January 25, 2006


I think that was a ballsy and justified move, although I wish they wouldn't have put quotes around a possibly inaccurate paraphrase. Law students should be more precise (at the very least they should have provided the Bluebook citation).

I believe the actual phrase (although variants seem to be everywhere) is "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Finally, civil disobedience usually means that the act of protest breaks the law. In this case, the students were perfectly within their rights to protest.
posted by Falconetti at 12:58 PM on January 25, 2006


civil disobedience usually means that the act of protest breaks the law. Fair Enough. Though, didn't the administration just outlaw protesting the other day?!
(I guess I got distracted by the fact that the cadence of Civil Disobedience matched Crazy Delicious. My bad.)
posted by shoepal at 1:05 PM on January 25, 2006


Some Mefites would say that this should have been punished by imprisonment.
posted by lodurr at 1:06 PM on January 25, 2006


I can't believe that a small group of college students are the most prominent face on such an important story.
Looking around the headlines today is morbidly depressing. This thing seems to have very little momentum for its relevance.
posted by dougunderscorenelso at 1:06 PM on January 25, 2006


(I guess I got distracted by the fact that the cadence of Civil Disobedience matched Crazy Delicious. My bad.)

Ha! No, your good. Slightly glossing the technical definition was worth it. I got so distracted by Big Brother that I missed the joke.
posted by Falconetti at 1:10 PM on January 25, 2006


Falconetti writes "In this case, the students were perfectly within their rights to protest."

Treason is illegal. Protesting is a privilege American soldiers died for, not a right. Using that privilege to protest against someone who doesn't let mere laws stop him from keeping us safe is an abuse of the privilege, an insult to our brave men in uniform, and aids the terrorists.
posted by orthogonality at 1:11 PM on January 25, 2006


pass the chronic.
posted by wakko at 1:15 PM on January 25, 2006


Some Mefites would say that this should have been punished by imprisonment.

Some Mefites are fucking retarded.
posted by wakko at 1:16 PM on January 25, 2006


Ortho, thank you for contributing to the growing pool of Metafilter sarcasm that I feel stupid for briefly taking seriously.

"Wait, ortho really thinks....? Ohhh, dammit! NOT AGAIN"
posted by dougunderscorenelso at 1:17 PM on January 25, 2006


Treason is illegal.

Which is why our current administration should hang.
posted by davelog at 1:18 PM on January 25, 2006


What are these "rights" of which you speak?
posted by bashos_frog at 1:18 PM on January 25, 2006


In this case, the students were perfectly within their rights to protest.

So the concept that "the free speech zone is over there about 250 yards" only applies to Chimpy? The Torture Czar doesn't get the same protection?
posted by If I Had An Anus at 1:19 PM on January 25, 2006


"I can't believe that a small group of college students are the most prominent face on such an important story."

It's been this way for years. I used to go to Bush protests and street marches here in California. But none of them seemed to have an ounce of momentum, and even those have faded away with no follow up.

America doesn't care. Not really. Not enough to get off the couch or step away from the keyboard. Today's American actually feels a snarky comment at MetaFilter counts as protest and dissent.

Why aren't we protesting? Why aren't we rioting in the streets? Because the soup Nazi "Seinfeld" episode is on, and we've only seen it 6 times. Thus our liberty will have to wait.
posted by y6y6y6 at 1:21 PM on January 25, 2006


orthogonality has it, and I'm falling on my sword to prevent any precious Liberty ResourcesTM from being expended to bring me and my treasonous thoughts to justice.
posted by OmieWise at 1:22 PM on January 25, 2006


Duke sucks.
posted by BobFrapples at 1:22 PM on January 25, 2006


Heh, soup nazi.
posted by delmoi at 1:24 PM on January 25, 2006


They actually got a bit of press in the mainstream media. Hopefully it made a few people think. I say yay for these students. As for whether they created a disturbance, it sounds like they were quiet and merely held up their sign and turned their backs. Their point was made yet the people who wanted to hear Gonzalez's speech could still do so without interference.
posted by caddis at 1:24 PM on January 25, 2006


y6y6y6, so it looks like The Beast was right about me?
posted by dougunderscorenelso at 1:25 PM on January 25, 2006


They should have asked him if he has ever had anal sex with his wife.
posted by Falconetti at 1:26 PM on January 25, 2006


y6y6y6,

Why aren't we protesting? Why aren't we rioting in the streets?

Consumers don't protest. Citizens do.
posted by DragonBoy at 1:31 PM on January 25, 2006


Harumph. Those who would mangle the essential meaning of wise words for temporary publicity deserve neither.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 1:32 PM on January 25, 2006


It's kind of sad to see youngsters and their naivety confronting elders and their callous minds. It's babies talking to babies..the mature adults seem to be conspicuously absent.

on preview: lodurr: somebody may argue and correctly so that disruption of speech is not the same as exercising free speech. If I speak over your speech we both end up not being understood, practically rendering each other expression into an mess.

But if one argues that there's a right to free speech, but not a right to a platform to be heard ..then negating the complete attention of audience without speaking isn't a breach of free speech...there's no right to obtain the undivided attention of audience. There's no right to look good in the cameras and on TV.

So bite my technicality ass. DISRUPTION and they were showing a sign...so what if they showed they asses...RAPTURE DISRUPTION GOD IS COMING!
posted by elpapacito at 1:35 PM on January 25, 2006


Harumph. Those who would let fly with quick and incongruent dismissals deserve nei.... er, I mean, deserve to get called on their lack of creativity. Or thoughtfulness.
posted by lodurr at 1:36 PM on January 25, 2006


elpapacito, I actually don't think I understand what you're trying to say. FWIW, what I'm trying to say is what I did say.
posted by lodurr at 1:37 PM on January 25, 2006


IQ(GWB) + IQ(DC) < IQ(BF)
posted by muppetboy at 1:38 PM on January 25, 2006


lodur: reading it again I'm not expecting YOU to bite my ass.
posted by elpapacito at 1:40 PM on January 25, 2006


That's good; I don't think my fiance would understand.
posted by lodurr at 1:42 PM on January 25, 2006


Two! No, Six! No, Twelve! BAKERS DOZEN!
I told you that I'm crazy for these cup-cakes COUSIN!
posted by anomie at 2:00 PM on January 25, 2006


"Why aren't we protesting? "

Because this isnt a parliamentary system, its a two party system in which the minority party has little to no power even if they attempted to weild it. Or that the media in general doesn't report a protest unless its huge and even then a large protest isn't exactly an agent of change. I hate to break it to you but the 60/70s historical revisionism that protesting somehow influenced government is a bit exaggerated.

Its very easy to blame tv, video games, scrabble, knitting, and cat ownership and call Americans apathetic, but they live in a system resistant to change. I'm sure a lot of people who read this board have participated in protests before. The problem certainly isnt apathy. Its lack of effectiveness for various reasons.

I don't think 24/7 protesting would even make a difference. Although I'd love to be proven wrong.

The above also ignores that many americans like Bush, his politics, and his methods.
posted by skallas at 2:04 PM on January 25, 2006


Why all the name calling? Annoying. The substance, then, of the post: what we need to know, and this is never made clear, is whether the NSA is in fact spying NOT just on what goes out of the country and what comes in. Surprise: they have been doing that all along, legally. What we need to know is whether the spying is all within the US.

As for Washington: I did not know NSA was a big concern of his. To refer to what might have been done in the past is silly argument. After all, FISA was put in place when Nixon decided not to follow what had been done in the past.
posted by Postroad at 2:11 PM on January 25, 2006


Postroad: No.
Prove me wrong, but I keep reading is that what needs to be made clear is whether or not the president has the right to authorize and re-authorize spying that circumvents the court put in place to monitor such activity. Listen to me all you want, gubmint, if you can make a case for it before the speedy, dependable, lenient, FISA court.

The issue being brought up here: Bush's unwillingness to comply with the law, regardless of what sort of calls the spying was done on.

And this isn't a silly technicality. Bush's activity brings up a dark question, which is: If getting a warrant is so damn easy, why would he refuse to?

Could it be because the courts wouldn't grant him warrants on these taps? If so, holy crap, why not? No one on the right has yet to clearly explain the benefit...or reasoning...of failing to obtain a warrant for eavesdropping.
posted by dougunderscorenelso at 2:21 PM on January 25, 2006


yo, where's the movie playin'?/ upper west side, dude/ let's hit up yahoo maps to find the dopest route.
posted by Hat Maui at 2:38 PM on January 25, 2006


While this has been brought up, I was researching this Franklin quote, and it seemed ambiguous as to whether it is even his quote. (It's great, nonetheless.)

Is 'security' instead of 'safety' the accepted misquotation (er... if you see what I mean...)?
posted by klaatu at 2:48 PM on January 25, 2006


i prefer mapquest.
posted by wakko at 2:49 PM on January 25, 2006


that's a good one, too.
posted by Hat Maui at 2:49 PM on January 25, 2006


jeezus christ who really prefers mapquest i wish they would just die already
posted by rxrfrx at 2:50 PM on January 25, 2006


what rxrfrxrxfrsfxrr said.

google maps is the best!
posted by Hat Maui at 2:51 PM on January 25, 2006


That's good; I don't think my fiance would understand.

Wow, lodurr is engaged to be married. Then again, I shouldn't be too surprised, it can't be that difficult to find a brain-dead desperate woman in the USofA.
posted by mad judge pickles at 2:52 PM on January 25, 2006


I think we might lose on this one. But then I’ve been feeling a bit nihilistic lately.
posted by Smedleyman at 2:55 PM on January 25, 2006


true dat.
posted by wakko at 2:56 PM on January 25, 2006


it can't be that difficult to find a brain-dead desperate woman in the USofA.

why, here's one right here: mad judge pickles.

er, rather, i meant:
DOUBLE TRUE!
posted by Hat Maui at 2:58 PM on January 25, 2006


Don't want (homeland) security to get suspicious...
posted by eddydamascene at 3:01 PM on January 25, 2006


a. gonzalez + red tape = crazy malicious
posted by Hat Maui at 3:02 PM on January 25, 2006


Congrats Hat Maui, you spotted the deliberately inserted opportunity to assert your liberal credentials. You may now return to your regularly scheduled unelectability-circle-jerk.
posted by mad judge pickles at 3:06 PM on January 25, 2006


dude, you were the one being the unprovoked dick. i merely turned it around on you. what your insult toward lodurr's fiance had to do with "liberal credentials" must be something only a zany mad judge would know.
posted by Hat Maui at 3:10 PM on January 25, 2006


Well, Hat Maui, lodurr decided to take an unprovoked shit on dios , about 20 minutes into this thread. The guy is deperate to suck enough dick to be allowed to hang with the cool kids. By implication, any woman stupid enough to be seen in the same room as the 'dude' has to be brain-dead.
posted by mad judge pickles at 3:18 PM on January 25, 2006


"I hate to break it to you but the 60/70s historical revisionism that protesting somehow influenced government is a bit exaggerated."

I didn't say it wasn't. My parents were active war protesters, and even I don't think their marching in the street was the reason we got out of Vietnam. Neither am I claiming that they were somehow more noble to have taken their politics to the street. They were naive hippies.

Still, my point was just a snarky high-five to what Doug was saying - "I can't believe that a small group of college students are the most prominent face on such an important story."

I don't expect massive street protests to change the political direction of our country (though that would be nice). But I am rather dismayed that Americans can't get more worked up this sort of thing.

Bush is asserting that he has the right to spy on Americans without a warrant. He also asserts that he has the right to hold Americans without charge. And at the same time he's proven to be extremely bad at assessing threats, managing crises, and not coming unglued when his authority is questioned.

Bush is solidifying absolute power in the administrative branch. We respond by watching reruns. We suck. That's my point.

But frankly I gave up after he was reelected. Any country that is so batshit insane that they'd reelect Bush is beyond hope for me. I'll keep voting, but not because I think our system works. Voting is just my lingering denial. America has couch-surfed it's way to doom. We're broke. We're dumb. And everyone hates us.
posted by y6y6y6 at 3:22 PM on January 25, 2006


so who's sock puppet is this pickles person?
posted by mr.marx at 3:28 PM on January 25, 2006


Well, Hat Maui, lodurr decided to take an unprovoked shit on dios , about 20 minutes into this thread. The guy is deperate to suck enough dick to be allowed to hang with the cool kids. By implication, any woman stupid enough to be seen in the same room as the 'dude' has to be brain-dead.

A week old account and already he knows who Dios is and adopted the lingo. Intresting.
posted by delmoi at 3:30 PM on January 25, 2006


Yeah, and who does the Hat Maui sock-puppet belong to? I've got a bad memory, and that thread was so long ago.
posted by mad judge pickles at 3:33 PM on January 25, 2006


"Voting is just my lingering denial. America has couch web-surfed it's way to doom. We're broke. We're dumb. And everyone hates us."

Double True.
posted by shoepal at 3:37 PM on January 25, 2006


Anyone who looks at the current posturing over warrentless searches and concludes there's little to worry about has got to be a fucking mongoloid. I'm not particularly canted in any one direction politically, but this is the first time I've seen this administration effectively state that they simply will disregard the Constitution because it feels right.

That should tell anyone that we are headed for disaster, and it's just a matter of when.
posted by docpops at 3:42 PM on January 25, 2006


the hat maui sock puppet belongs to me, hat maui.
posted by Hat Maui at 3:49 PM on January 25, 2006


so who's sock puppet is this pickles person?

MeFi junior detectives can probably start with the assumption they're British.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 3:55 PM on January 25, 2006


oh, so it's jenleigh, then.
posted by Hat Maui at 3:56 PM on January 25, 2006


lodurr decided to take an unprovoked shit on dios

hardly. i think his characterization of what dios said is pretty accurate. in dios' stated opinion, those protestors should be arrested for disrupting gonzalez.
posted by Hat Maui at 3:58 PM on January 25, 2006


docpops wins thread.
posted by wakko at 4:00 PM on January 25, 2006


Hat Maui, why have got such a woody for lodurr? Is he, for some reason, unable to explain his motives himself?
posted by mad judge pickles at 4:04 PM on January 25, 2006


A Bush-apparatchik stole my 'you'.
posted by mad judge pickles at 4:05 PM on January 25, 2006


docpops writes "this is the first time I've seen this administration effectively state that they simply will disregard the Constitution because it feels right."

STFU. It's for your safety, lib'rul traitor.

You don't have all the facts. Bush does, because he's President. George Bush knows a lot more than you, traitor. Stop aiding the terrorists.
posted by orthogonality at 4:09 PM on January 25, 2006


judge pickles, stop being so mad. The shit on dios was pretty accurate.
posted by anthill at 4:23 PM on January 25, 2006


Ok, anthill, I was all geared up to be mad all night, but you're arguments are just too damn convincing. Clearly, dios is wrong because you say he is.

Welcome to LiberalWorld2006.
posted by mad judge pickles at 4:27 PM on January 25, 2006


mad judge pickles writes "but you're arguments are just too damn convincing."

Theys don't larn you no grammers ins Law School no more?
posted by orthogonality at 4:34 PM on January 25, 2006


orthogonality, I hear that if you run Software Update, the sarcasm module is available as a free download.

Thanks for playing, though. It's always nice to get confirmation that I'm not the stupidest person on the planet.
posted by mad judge pickles at 4:37 PM on January 25, 2006


hey PP....back so soon?
posted by stirfry at 4:38 PM on January 25, 2006


Yup, I'm back, baby!

Shit! Forgot to logout/login.

stirfry, you're smallfry. Please try harder.
posted by mad judge pickles at 4:45 PM on January 25, 2006


Future lawyers are cute. This is going to really hurt them when they want to supremes.
posted by srboisvert at 4:46 PM on January 25, 2006


Metafilter: Some Mefites are fucking retarded
posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:56 PM on January 25, 2006


Yaaaaay PP is back! *huggles*
posted by Baby_Balrog at 5:05 PM on January 25, 2006


y6y6y6: "Bush is solidifying absolute power in the administrative branch. We respond by watching reruns."

100 years from now - this is what will be remembered. Not our silly, minor incursion into the Middle East, nor the steady advance of global consumerism. History will record this transition as the period in which the executive branch of the U.S. government became the dominant, driving force in our country. Even 9/11 will be framed in this context - the turning point when Americans began slowly handing in their essential liberties for imagined security from fabricated threats.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 5:09 PM on January 25, 2006


for more info, including why they paraphrased the quote, and one of the greatest protest photos of alltime
posted by 8 Bit at 5:27 PM on January 25, 2006


Is Bush turning America into an elective dictatorship?
posted by homunculus at 5:30 PM on January 25, 2006


mad judge pickles: Content free.

Seriously, try at least a few logical fallacies, or maybe argue an irrelevant technical point.

Given your style though, I'd say you're neither as skilled as dhoyt or dios at provoking a cluster-fuck (dhoyt being the true dark sith master) and the abrasiveness reminds me quite a bit of PP.

Back to the story: Good on them.
posted by Freen at 5:33 PM on January 25, 2006


It's a shame that mad judge pickles hasn't actually bothered to counter anyone's argument.
posted by oaf at 5:43 PM on January 25, 2006


Where'd PP go? Banned? Vacation? Zuh?
posted by graventy at 5:49 PM on January 25, 2006


graventy writes "Where'd PP go? Banned? Vacation? Zuh?"


You didn't hear? The army recently upped the maximum age for first enlistment to 40.

ParisParamus joined the Army and asked to be posted to Iraq. Said he couldn't sit on the sidelines anymore, that the war was the right decision, and he would be proud to risk his life to do his duty.
posted by orthogonality at 5:56 PM on January 25, 2006


What?? PP got banned and nobody invited me to the party?
posted by Zetetics at 5:57 PM on January 25, 2006


No, seriously, he joined the Army. Really.

I think we all owe ParisParamus an apology for ever calling him yellow or a hypocrite.
posted by orthogonality at 6:04 PM on January 25, 2006


No, seriously. What'd he get banned for?
posted by graventy at 6:05 PM on January 25, 2006


You make a claim like that, you've got to bring a link to back it up.
posted by Zetetics at 6:07 PM on January 25, 2006


an unprovoked shit on dios

the very presence of dios is sufficient provocation for episodes of projectile diarrhea.
posted by quonsar at 6:53 PM on January 25, 2006


First I've heard of this "unitary executive" business.

Can't say I agree with Parry's take on Gore. Perhaps a couple other conclusions. But I think his take on GWB's about face on UBL is dead on.
posted by Smedleyman at 6:57 PM on January 25, 2006


I dunno, orthogonality, looks like he's still on Atlantic & 3rd.
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=40.684948,+-73.980613&t=h&hl=en&ll=40.684948,-73.980613&spn=32.800863,87.802734
posted by Smedleyman at 7:08 PM on January 25, 2006


(argh! This F'ing machine)
posted by Smedleyman at 7:08 PM on January 25, 2006


orthogonality, STFU!
posted by snsranch at 7:10 PM on January 25, 2006


It's obviously a big issue for people, thankfully, and the protest really resonated.

I posted about it yesterday on my blog, and have received close to 200 comments so far. (I would've mentioned this on MeFi, but I had already posted that day...)

That said, the next generation still scares me, in that they've grown up learning a whole lot of really bad lessons about American democracy. I hope the damage can somehow be undone, but I kind of doubt it.
posted by insomnia_lj at 7:19 PM on January 25, 2006


"No, seriously, he joined the Army. Really."

Are you sure you don't mean the IDF?!
posted by insomnia_lj at 7:39 PM on January 25, 2006


Kudos to ParisParamus for standing up for what he truly believes in. Good luck in Iraq!
posted by wakko at 8:12 PM on January 25, 2006


the very presence of dios is sufficient provocation for episodes of projectile diarrhea.
posted by quonsar at 9:53 PM EST on January 25 [!]

That'd would put us into what, the fourth season?
posted by juiceCake at 8:14 PM on January 25, 2006


Huh.. If true, I guess he did have some balls, not just talk..Good on him.
posted by Balisong at 9:12 PM on January 25, 2006


Just, uh, in case anyone still hasn't seen it: Lazy Sunday (Chronicles of Narnia Rap) (self link, because I was tired of looking for a decent, streamable non-flash file to pass around).
posted by odinsdream at 10:33 PM on January 25, 2006


Gee, this is the worst thread I've tried to read on MeFi in a long time. Quite useless, signal to noise ration exceeds acceptable limits.
posted by Goofyy at 10:47 PM on January 25, 2006


highsignal to noise?
posted by matteo at 12:01 AM on January 26, 2006


wakko, you're wacko.
posted by nlindstrom at 12:09 AM on January 26, 2006


Enough already. Those of us in the rest of the world, whose lives will be dictated by American policy want to know more. So can the noise.
posted by Wilder at 3:05 AM on January 26, 2006


mad judge pickles: Well, Hat Maui, lodurr decided to take an unprovoked shit on dios , about 20 minutes into this thread. The guy is deperate to suck enough dick to be allowed to hang with the cool kids. By implication, any woman stupid enough to be seen in the same room as the 'dude' has to be brain-dead.
This, children, would be a definitive example of "ad hominem."

It's also a great example of projection.

hat, I was away from the thread; thanks for sticking up for my fiance's honor.
posted by lodurr at 6:06 AM on January 26, 2006


pickles
mad judge pickles: Wow, lodurr is engaged to be married. Then again, I shouldn't be too surprised, it can't be that difficult to find a brain-dead desperate woman in the USofA.
Ah, so this is the offending comment; no wonder, I'd decided to ignore it as I would normally ignore any other such 7th grade lunchroom snark. (Thanks, anyway, Hat.)

As for taking "an unprovoked shit on dios", I don't think you've got any grounds for that. Link it; you'll see that all I did was state his position -- accurately -- and link to the place where he expressed it. I didn't even name him; I granted him te further boon of implying that he wasn't alone in his beliefs. I also expressed no value judgement on the matter. I simply said, what I said -- I didn't say (here) that his view was wrong (though, if you go to that thread, you'll see that I do think that).

You can call it "shitting" if you want; I call it "linking."
posted by lodurr at 6:11 AM on January 26, 2006


I will never doubt PP's courage again, now that he's finally put his own life on the line.

Good luck in Iraq Paris, our prayers are with you!
posted by sic at 7:28 AM on January 26, 2006


[AHEM: how should we take "sic"? 'cuz, you know, PP ain't goin' to Iraq. (That whole "yer a chickenhawk shut yer face" schtick that people would trot out on him got old, anyway.)]
posted by lodurr at 9:39 AM on January 26, 2006


OMG, he didn't really join the army? Thanks for clearing that up, because it was really plausible!
posted by sic at 10:30 AM on January 26, 2006


First I've heard of this "unitary executive" business.

You're not the only one.
posted by homunculus at 11:48 AM on January 26, 2006


Why We Stood
posted by homunculus at 3:25 PM on January 27, 2006


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