toilet seat problem

February 3, 2006 9:17 PM

A game theoretic approach to the toilet seat problem. Because people are really passionate about their toilets.
posted by dhruva (54 comments total)

I will never understand why men can't just sit down to pee.
posted by Hildegarde at 9:30 PM on February 3, 2006

I tried to argue a case similar to this many many years ago, but no one listened. Damned mathematicians get all the glory.

Hildegarde: Efficiency, efficiency!
posted by MetaMonkey at 9:31 PM on February 3, 2006

I dunno, it doesn't seem very efficient. Enter bathroom, lift seat, pee, try to remember to put seat back. What if you needed to do more than that? Lift seat, pee, put seat back, sit down? If men would just sit down to pee instead of dancing and waving things around, we'd never have this problem.
posted by Hildegarde at 9:41 PM on February 3, 2006

I never understood the ever-present complaint of women about toilet seats. Is it really such a cumbersome annoyance for a woman to simply lift it when necessary?
posted by Pontius Pilate at 9:46 PM on February 3, 2006

I'm a woman and I couldn't care less. It's the proper direction of the toilet paper roll (over, not under, you Philistines!) that is the real issue of import.
posted by scody at 9:49 PM on February 3, 2006

It's not an issue to me. I live alone and I don't sleep with men. But men have to sit down part of the time too, I don't understand why men want to lift the seat in the first place.
posted by Hildegarde at 10:00 PM on February 3, 2006

John performs toilet operation #1 with the seat in the up position and toilet operation #2 with the seat in the down position.

this solves so many things for me with such minimal resource expenditure! before, it was always:

1) a friend tells me she's off to do #2 and i think she's just gonna do #1, and i wait longer than expected
2) i tell a friend i'm off to do #1, when i really mean #2, and she waits longer than expected
3) i suffer great discomfiture in being unable to communicate what my plans with any accuracy.

now, no longer will i proudly exclaim i'm off to do #1 and look sheepish when i return to the face of a friend who thinks i just had a 15 second bowel movement. now, i will not look silly bringing a newspaper with me after telling people i've gotta do #1. now, i proudly tell you all, that i'm off to do #2.
posted by herrdoktor at 10:00 PM on February 3, 2006

I don't understand why men want to lift the seat in the first place.

Erm. The aim is not always terribly precise.
posted by Pontius Pilate at 10:10 PM on February 3, 2006

The imprecise aim problem would be solved by...sitting down.
posted by Hildegarde at 10:25 PM on February 3, 2006

It's somehow a slightly emasculating experience. I don't know why, honestly.
posted by Pontius Pilate at 10:31 PM on February 3, 2006

I think the standing-up-to-pee thing is about the domination of the patriarchy.
posted by beth at 10:33 PM on February 3, 2006

The problem is solved so simply by having at least two porcelain facilities.
posted by Cranberry at 10:42 PM on February 3, 2006

Scody - I read Emily Post's advice to have the window shade roller hidden from all those viewers checking it from outside the house. Presumably the family can suffer the hideous sight of the roller from inside.
I have no roller window shades, but from that moment on, I have always installed TP over, not under. Such a rebel!
posted by Cranberry at 10:46 PM on February 3, 2006

I've always thought there is no reason that a home bathroom cannot have a urinal.
posted by Pontius Pilate at 10:46 PM on February 3, 2006

The imprecise aim problem would be solved by...sitting down.

Yes, but that would turn us into women, not to mention hampering our practice sessions for the annual writing-your-name-in-the-snow competitions.
posted by frogan at 11:10 PM on February 3, 2006

"I think the standing-up-to-pee thing is about the domination of the patriarchy."

Ummm...how about "it's more convenient" and it's pretty much required in public restrooms.
posted by robla at 11:12 PM on February 3, 2006

So there we have it: men apparently leave the toilet seat up to prove (to themselves) that they are men. And you wonder why women get frustrated with this strange habit.

Seriously now! You have nothing to prove! We accept your masculinity! It's okay to just sit down! It won't fall off and get flushed down the toilet! It's so much cleaner this way! No more misfires! Everyone's happier!
posted by Hildegarde at 11:21 PM on February 3, 2006

hmmmm
posted by robla at 11:32 PM on February 3, 2006

This doesn't get the costs right. In particular, there's no allowing for the urgency of various toilet operations.

There's C1, the cost of moving the seat up when it's down. This is minimal, and can be avoided if the seat-up operation is urgent by simply leaving the seat down and performing the required operation anyway.

Then there is C2, the cost of moving the seat down when it's up. Here, the marginal cost of the time spent moving the seat varies, from nearly zero for a leisurely toilet operation, to very high indeed when the relevant toilet operation will assuredly take place in the next 15 seconds whether the toilet is prepared or not. Likewise, if someone must perform toilet operation #3, the technicolor yawn or "boot," he or she would pay a very high price for arriving in a restroom with an unsuitable-arranged toilet seat. Some might argue that there should also be an element of C2 that captures the cost associated with falling into a toilet that one believes is #2-enabled when it is #1-enabled, but this cost properly inheres in a propensity towards unobservance rather than in the seat position itself.

I will never understand why men can't just sit down to pee.

I can. Why would I want to? I'm standing when I walk in, I'll be standing when I leave, why would I want to sit down in the middle if I don't have to?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:35 PM on February 3, 2006

Hildegarde: you're missing the point, so to speak. men are able to direct their pee because our primordial fathers used their pee to mark their territory. our reptillian brain gives us a metaphysical high-five every time we fire away and hit our mark, as if to say, "well done, caveman, you've once again marked your territory and have therefore ensured another safe night for your tribe!"

if you're not willing to accept that argument, please consider our peeing whilest standing an artform.
posted by analogue at 11:43 PM on February 3, 2006

The costs are equal for J&M if they raise either just the lid (J&M for #2, M for #1) or the seat-lid combo (J for #1 so he can stand and pee in all his glory) as needed. They each would have to close the seat-lid combo after any use.

It also means that the stuff you keep on the shelf above the toilet (because your tiny bathroom has no other place to store things) won't bloody well fall into the toilet because the lid is up all the time.
posted by rosemere at 11:49 PM on February 3, 2006

I thought this link would be something I had seen before - assuming a probability p of #1 vs #2, and a household with with x men and y women, for what values of p, x and y is it better to have the seat up all the time? Can't seem to find it though...
posted by Orange Goblin at 4:49 AM on February 4, 2006

We accept your masculinity! It's okay to just sit down!

For what it's worth, many women probably don't share your 'healthy' attitude towards that issue.

And personally, it's out of the question. That's like, very many years or more of habit! Damn if I change that to satisfy somebody else's abstract puzzlement over the issue.
posted by Firas at 5:16 AM on February 4, 2006

"well done, caveman, you've once again marked your territory and have therefore ensured another safe night for your tribe!"

One more thing to consider is that this whole argument is an artifact of western toilet designs (a WC to save space, sans urinal)… in middle eastern / indian subcontinental / far eastern (perhaps also african?) sit-down toilets, men, well, sit down.
posted by Firas at 5:26 AM on February 4, 2006

squat toilets, i mean, not sit-down ones...
posted by Firas at 5:27 AM on February 4, 2006

We had an interesting discussion when I asked a question about this very thing.
posted by emelenjr at 5:36 AM on February 4, 2006

We (men) could obviate any disagreement by urinating in the sink. It's the right height, it avoids spillage on the floor, we can leave the toilet seat down, urine is sterile, everyone's happy, right?

Rationality only gets you so far...
posted by alasdair at 5:46 AM on February 4, 2006

More practical solution for women: get some tools and adjust your toilet seat so it always falls down unless supported. You might get occasional banging noises in the night as it falls, but you'll never find the seat up when you're not expecting it.

Men, you'll have to stand sideways-on (propping the seat up with your knee) or otherwise support the seat. Or sit down. One drawback is that barbarians will ignore the fact that the seat is down and risk covering it in urine, so you need to assess your cohabitants' manners.
posted by alasdair at 5:50 AM on February 4, 2006

Hildegarde, sitting down to pee for a man is more cumbersome than the seat mechanics alone would dictate. I requires dropping pants and underwear and unfastening buttons and a belt, taking off a jacket if needed, and untucking and retucking a shirt (maybe). Peeing standing up is a quantum leap of convenience even with raising and lowering the seat. It is not just an ego thing.
posted by I Foody at 6:08 AM on February 4, 2006

It droppeth as the gentle rain from Heaven, okay?
posted by Wolof at 6:08 AM on February 4, 2006

Hildegarde writes "It's okay to just sit down! It won't fall off and get flushed down the toilet!"

You always risk the unintended washing of certian sensitive bits though.

alasdair writes "More practical solution for women: get some tools and adjust your toilet seat so it always falls down unless supported. You might get occasional banging noises in the night as it falls, but you'll never find the seat up when you're not expecting it. "

One of those bathmat matching lid covers does this job.
posted by Mitheral at 6:29 AM on February 4, 2006

All the analyses miss C3, the cost of replacing your mobile after it falls out of your shirt pocket and into the pan as you lean over to put the seat down. The probability is small but finite for men, but zero for women who keep their mobiles at the bottom of their handbags.
posted by StephenB at 7:06 AM on February 4, 2006

> I will never understand why men can't just sit down to pee.

Why don't you try it standing up? You might like it! With enough practice you too might learn to write your name in the snow. Don't criticize 'til you've walked a mile in my moccasins. Personally I do it standing because it annoys exactly the right crowd of twits.

Oh, and it has nothing to do with scent-marking. When I go scent-marking I do it on all the same places other mammals do -- trees, fireplugs, my lot corners, all that. Never omitting my neighbor's 7-series BMW--I'm sure he wonders why his expensive alloy wheels are turning green.
posted by jfuller at 7:12 AM on February 4, 2006

Mitheral, you don't want the cover to fall, just the seat. Then only men have to raise anything.
posted by alasdair at 7:17 AM on February 4, 2006

With enough practice you too might learn to write your name in the snow.

Here's some training wheels to help you on your way.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:58 AM on February 4, 2006

in middle eastern / indian subcontinental / far eastern (perhaps also african?) sit-down toilets, men, well, sit down.

You might do so, firas, but every one I've seen has been so disgusting that I'm standing up even to take a crap.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:00 AM on February 4, 2006

Very nice article!

Hildegarde, Women can pee standing up, it takes more practice, but women who learn it find it an invaluable tool.

Also, many men do pee sitting down, whenever its preferable to turnning on the lights. And now you know why men always install those dimmer switches: they don't want to site down. :)

alasdair, You'd need a significant time delay, or you risk your seat falling at a bad time, so your machine requires a good timer. Oh, its unsafe to expect the guy to just give up & sit, many guys are stubborn & think they have good balance.

BTW, squat toilets are clearly the best option for very dirty places, like bars.
posted by jeffburdges at 8:03 AM on February 4, 2006

I had to replace a cell phone because it fell in the toilet, and while I was in the shop another guy came in to replace his cell phone for the same reason.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:04 AM on February 4, 2006

Rosemere has it, switch to lid down and you'll never go back. No problems with stuff falling in or thirsty pets, no arguments over the position of the seat, no fine spray of whatever was in the toilet bowl all over the bathroom, and it just looks better. And if you're a guy, nobody will know if you sit or stand to pee - assuming your aim doesn't totally suck.

FWIW, I find that toilet bowls make bad urinals and are annoying to use standing up.
posted by teleskiving at 8:07 AM on February 4, 2006

I'm well aware that women can pee standing up. I just really have no desire to do so. Back when I was an outtripper it would have been useful (in the winter, when peeing meant having to take off valuable layers of clothing), but those days are over and now I'm living within a comfortable income. I even have a nice wooden toilet seat. The possibility of serious mess are so much greater; I like to keep a nice clean house.
posted by Hildegarde at 8:21 AM on February 4, 2006

> I'm well aware that women can pee standing up. I just really have no desire to do so.

Aha. Well, I have, not the same feeling precisely, but a symmetrical disinclination which you understand perfectly now that you've given it a moment's thought.

BTW the Sons of Aryas are all sitzpinklers nowadays. No wonder German women won't have their babies.
posted by jfuller at 8:39 AM on February 4, 2006

I will never understand why women can't just sit down stand up to pee.

Actually, I can. But our choices are really just a matter of convenience, depending on gender. jfuller kinda nailed it.
posted by exlotuseater at 9:58 AM on February 4, 2006

I stand to pee because I'm too big to sit and pee. There, I said it. I don't want my dangly bits in water, nor do I want them crammed up against cold, nasty porcelain, spraying urine everywhere because my penis does not have a U-bend in it. I cannot physically sit far enough back on most toilets to keep myself from hitting the front porcelain. And I'm of fairly average dimensions, so I can't imagine I'm alone in feeling that far from emasculating, sitting and peeing is just plain uncomfortable. When crapping, I rest my doo-dads on the seat; it's better than being in the bowl.

Also, include what was said above about needing to disrobe unnecessarily. It's particularly difficult to shuffle things when you also have a briefcase, or motorcycle gear like gloves and a helmet (which I can hold under one arm, gloves inside the helmet; but where do I put it when I need to sit? Not on the floor, certainly. My helmet alone costs more than the fixture. Easier to stand; it just is, sorry).

In public restrooms (when unavoidable), I squat to crap. I don't care about hygeine statistics (I even believe 'em!), I just don't like the idea of getting wet and or dirty, even if I still won't get sick. That's just how I roll.

I am trying to train my S.O. to put her and my lids down, as I dislike it when she knocks my things into the bowl. I can't understand how someone so clumsy (but lovely) can live with the lid up. She has never once complained about me putting the lid down, though, bless her heart.

Over the roll. I want the paper to fall off the roll so as to eliminate the need to hunt and peck for fresh sheets. If you have a disagreement and the facilities to do so in your home, I suggest two rolls (as in a public convenience or many fine hotels), one over and one under.

THERE. I HAVE SOLVED SOCIETY.
posted by Eideteker at 10:20 AM on February 4, 2006 [1 favorite]

MetaFilter: THERE. I HAVE SOLVED SOCIETY.

*will high five Eideteker for agreeing with me about the lid once he says that he actually washes his hands afterwards and doesn't just dampen them*
posted by rosemere at 10:43 AM on February 4, 2006

I'm firmly with the toilet-lid-AND-seat-down-when-not-in-use crowd. Anyone who leaves anything up gets yelled at regardless of gender and the nature of their bathroom activity.

Paper goes over.
posted by Pryde at 12:34 PM on February 4, 2006

The Love Toilet solves all.
posted by dhartung at 1:42 PM on February 4, 2006

i have sat down to pee (think you got to shit turns out you dont) and find that i cant quite "shake it" right when i am sitting, and it results in "drippage" while standing i have none of these problems...am i the only man with this problem?
posted by stilgar at 2:16 PM on February 4, 2006

I'm with Pryde - the only real solution is both lid and seat down except when engaged in a specific operation. And in any kind of argument about this issue - good-humoured or not - it's the nuclear option, there can be no real discussion after that.
posted by mikel at 2:22 PM on February 4, 2006

I have a dog big enough to drink from the toilet. Lid must be down when toilet is not in use. If anyone leaves it up, my dog is encouraged to go give them big sloppy kisses.

Paper must go over the top of the roll, or I'll paw at it like a sad monkey at an empty food dispenser when I've just woken up.
posted by cmyk at 3:45 PM on February 4, 2006

I like the manner in which jfuller refuted Hildegarde.
posted by jenovus at 4:36 PM on February 4, 2006

rosemere: I wash my hands after a poop. I rinse after a pee. No need for soap; urine is sterile! Also, I've learned not to piss all over my hands by now.

I love Ving Rhames' line as Don King in "Only in America," "I wash my hands before I touch my dick."
posted by Eideteker at 5:40 PM on February 4, 2006

I dated a girl who's house had bathrooms. In those bathrooms were urinals with gold-plated handles.

it was weird.
posted by craven_morhead at 5:44 PM on February 4, 2006

Eideteker and Stilgar have hit the nail on the head (you could say they have excellent aim) when it comes to my issues with this argument. I'm not a big fella, but it's rare to find a toilet designed such that I can sit comfortably, and I hate the feeling of cold porcelain on sensitive areas--water (hopefully just water) is even worse. Plus there's the standing drippage, which is almost unavoidable.

All of it boils down to, for me, raising the seat when I go standing up, and lowering it afterward. It's not a big deal, it doesn't take so much time, and it's polite to any female users. Politeness is nice.
posted by Fontbone at 7:30 PM on February 4, 2006

My solution: a pedal at the base. Men step on the pedal which raises the seat, do their bidness, and take their foot off the pedal which brings the seat back down. Don't any of you weasels try to patent it! It's going to make me rich and famous one day.
posted by Devils Slide at 8:41 PM on February 4, 2006