Comments on: toilet seat problem

toilet seat problem

dhruva — Fri, 03 Feb 2006 21:17:56 -0800

A game theoretic approach to the toilet seat problem. Because people are really passionate about their toilets.

By: Hildegarde

Hildegarde — Fri, 03 Feb 2006 21:30:26 -0800

I will never understand why men can't just sit down to pee.

By: MetaMonkey

MetaMonkey — Fri, 03 Feb 2006 21:31:32 -0800

I tried to argue a case similar to this many many years ago, but no one listened. Damned mathematicians get all the glory. Hildegarde: Efficiency, efficiency!

By: Hildegarde

Hildegarde — Fri, 03 Feb 2006 21:41:20 -0800

I dunno, it doesn't seem very efficient. Enter bathroom, lift seat, pee, try to remember to put seat back. What if you needed to do more than that? Lift seat, pee, put seat back, sit down? If men would just sit down to pee instead of dancing and waving things around, we'd never have this problem.

By: Pontius Pilate

Pontius Pilate — Fri, 03 Feb 2006 21:46:24 -0800

I never understood the ever-present complaint of women about toilet seats. Is it really such a cumbersome annoyance for a woman to simply lift it when necessary?

By: scody

scody — Fri, 03 Feb 2006 21:49:34 -0800

I'm a woman and I couldn't care less. It's the proper direction of the toilet paper roll (over, not under, you Philistines!) that is the real issue of import.

By: Hildegarde

Hildegarde — Fri, 03 Feb 2006 22:00:25 -0800

It's not an issue to me. I live alone and I don't sleep with men. But men have to sit down part of the time too, I don't understand why men want to lift the seat in the first place.

By: herrdoktor

herrdoktor — Fri, 03 Feb 2006 22:00:35 -0800

John performs toilet operation #1 with the seat in the up position and toilet operation #2 with the seat in the down position. this solves so many things for me with such minimal resource expenditure! before, it was always: 1) a friend tells me she's off to do #2 and i think she's just gonna do #1, and i wait longer than expected 2) i tell a friend i'm off to do #1, when i really mean #2, and she waits longer than expected 3) i suffer great discomfiture in being unable to communicate what my plans with any accuracy. now, no longer will i proudly exclaim i'm off to do #1 and look sheepish when i return to the face of a friend who thinks i just had a 15 second bowel movement. now, i will not look silly bringing a newspaper with me after telling people i've gotta do #1. now, i proudly tell you all, that i'm off to do #2.

By: Pontius Pilate

Pontius Pilate — Fri, 03 Feb 2006 22:10:37 -0800

I don't understand why men want to lift the seat in the first place. Erm. The aim is not always terribly precise.

By: Hildegarde

Hildegarde — Fri, 03 Feb 2006 22:25:30 -0800

The imprecise aim problem would be solved by...sitting down.

By: Pontius Pilate

Pontius Pilate — Fri, 03 Feb 2006 22:31:33 -0800

It's somehow a slightly emasculating experience. I don't know why, honestly.

By: beth

beth — Fri, 03 Feb 2006 22:33:56 -0800

I think the standing-up-to-pee thing is about the domination of the patriarchy.

By: Cranberry

Cranberry — Fri, 03 Feb 2006 22:42:51 -0800

The problem is solved so simply by having at least two porcelain facilities.

By: Cranberry

Cranberry — Fri, 03 Feb 2006 22:46:12 -0800

Scody - I read Emily Post's advice to have the window shade roller hidden from all those viewers checking it from outside the house. Presumably the family can suffer the hideous sight of the roller from inside. I have no roller window shades, but from that moment on, I have always installed TP over, not under. Such a rebel!

By: Pontius Pilate

Pontius Pilate — Fri, 03 Feb 2006 22:46:58 -0800

I've always thought there is no reason that a home bathroom cannot have a urinal.

By: frogan

frogan — Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:10:46 -0800

The imprecise aim problem would be solved by...sitting down. Yes, but that would turn us into women, not to mention hampering our practice sessions for the annual writing-your-name-in-the-snow competitions.

By: robla

robla — Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:12:45 -0800

"I think the standing-up-to-pee thing is about the domination of the patriarchy." Ummm...how about "it's more convenient" and it's pretty much required in public restrooms.

By: Hildegarde

Hildegarde — Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:21:48 -0800

So there we have it: men apparently leave the toilet seat up to prove (to themselves) that they are men. And you wonder why women get frustrated with this strange habit. Seriously now! You have nothing to prove! We accept your masculinity! It's okay to just sit down! It won't fall off and get flushed down the toilet! It's so much cleaner this way! No more misfires! Everyone's happier!

By: robla

robla — Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:32:14 -0800

hmmmm

By: ROU_Xenophobe

ROU_Xenophobe — Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:35:17 -0800

This doesn't get the costs right. In particular, there's no allowing for the urgency of various toilet operations. There's C1, the cost of moving the seat up when it's down. This is minimal, and can be avoided if the seat-up operation is urgent by simply leaving the seat down and performing the required operation anyway. Then there is C2, the cost of moving the seat down when it's up. Here, the marginal cost of the time spent moving the seat varies, from nearly zero for a leisurely toilet operation, to very high indeed when the relevant toilet operation will assuredly take place in the next 15 seconds whether the toilet is prepared or not. Likewise, if someone must perform toilet operation #3, the technicolor yawn or "boot," he or she would pay a very high price for arriving in a restroom with an unsuitable-arranged toilet seat. Some might argue that there should also be an element of C2 that captures the cost associated with falling into a toilet that one believes is #2-enabled when it is #1-enabled, but this cost properly inheres in a propensity towards unobservance rather than in the seat position itself. I will never understand why men can't just sit down to pee. I can. Why would I want to? I'm standing when I walk in, I'll be standing when I leave, why would I want to sit down in the middle if I don't have to?

By: analogue

analogue — Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:43:13 -0800

Hildegarde: you're missing the point, so to speak. men are able to direct their pee because our primordial fathers used their pee to mark their territory. our reptillian brain gives us a metaphysical high-five every time we fire away and hit our mark, as if to say, "well done, caveman, you've once again marked your territory and have therefore ensured another safe night for your tribe!" if you're not willing to accept that argument, please consider our peeing whilest standing an artform.

By: rosemere

rosemere — Fri, 03 Feb 2006 23:49:26 -0800

The costs are equal for J&M if they raise either just the lid (J&M for #2, M for #1) or the seat-lid combo (J for #1 so he can stand and pee in all his glory) as needed. They each would have to close the seat-lid combo after any use. It also means that the stuff you keep on the shelf above the toilet (because your tiny bathroom has no other place to store things) won't bloody well fall into the toilet because the lid is up all the time.

By: Orange Goblin

Orange Goblin — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 04:49:50 -0800

I thought this link would be something I had seen before - assuming a probability p of #1 vs #2, and a household with with x men and y women, for what values of p, x and y is it better to have the seat up all the time? Can't seem to find it though...

By: Firas

Firas — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 05:16:53 -0800

We accept your masculinity! It's okay to just sit down! For what it's worth, many women probably don't share your 'healthy' attitude towards that issue. And personally, it's out of the question. That's like, very many years or more of habit! Damn if I change that to satisfy somebody else's abstract puzzlement over the issue.

By: Firas

Firas — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 05:26:00 -0800

"well done, caveman, you've once again marked your territory and have therefore ensured another safe night for your tribe!" One more thing to consider is that this whole argument is an artifact of western toilet designs (a WC to save space, sans urinal)… in middle eastern / indian subcontinental / far eastern (perhaps also african?) sit-down toilets, men, well, sit down.

By: Firas

Firas — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 05:27:59 -0800

squat toilets, i mean, not sit-down ones...

By: emelenjr

emelenjr — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 05:36:13 -0800

We had an interesting discussion when I asked a question about this very thing.

By: alasdair

alasdair — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 05:46:21 -0800

We (men) could obviate any disagreement by urinating in the sink. It's the right height, it avoids spillage on the floor, we can leave the toilet seat down, urine is sterile, everyone's happy, right? Rationality only gets you so far...

By: alasdair

alasdair — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 05:50:16 -0800

More practical solution for women: get some tools and adjust your toilet seat so it always falls down unless supported. You might get occasional banging noises in the night as it falls, but you'll never find the seat up when you're not expecting it. Men, you'll have to stand sideways-on (propping the seat up with your knee) or otherwise support the seat. Or sit down. One drawback is that barbarians will ignore the fact that the seat is down and risk covering it in urine, so you need to assess your cohabitants' manners.

By: I Foody

I Foody — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 06:08:05 -0800

Hildegarde, sitting down to pee for a man is more cumbersome than the seat mechanics alone would dictate. I requires dropping pants and underwear and unfastening buttons and a belt, taking off a jacket if needed, and untucking and retucking a shirt (maybe). Peeing standing up is a quantum leap of convenience even with raising and lowering the seat. It is not just an ego thing.

By: Wolof

Wolof — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 06:08:56 -0800

It droppeth as the gentle rain from Heaven, okay?

By: Mitheral

Mitheral — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 06:29:48 -0800

Hildegarde writes "It's okay to just sit down! It won't fall off and get flushed down the toilet!" You always risk the unintended washing of certian sensitive bits though. alasdair writes "More practical solution for women: get some tools and adjust your toilet seat so it always falls down unless supported. You might get occasional banging noises in the night as it falls, but you'll never find the seat up when you're not expecting it. " One of those bathmat matching lid covers does this job.

By: StephenB

StephenB — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 07:06:10 -0800

All the analyses miss C3, the cost of replacing your mobile after it falls out of your shirt pocket and into the pan as you lean over to put the seat down. The probability is small but finite for men, but zero for women who keep their mobiles at the bottom of their handbags.

By: jfuller

jfuller — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 07:12:24 -0800

> I will never understand why men can't just sit down to pee. Why don't you try it standing up? You might like it! With enough practice you too might learn to write your name in the snow. Don't criticize 'til you've walked a mile in my moccasins. Personally I do it standing because it annoys exactly the right crowd of twits. Oh, and it has nothing to do with scent-marking. When I go scent-marking I do it on all the same places other mammals do -- trees, fireplugs, my lot corners, all that. Never omitting my neighbor's 7-series BMW--I'm sure he wonders why his expensive alloy wheels are turning green.

By: alasdair

alasdair — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 07:17:49 -0800

Mitheral, you don't want the cover to fall, just the seat. Then only men have to raise anything.

By: PeterMcDermott

PeterMcDermott — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 07:58:04 -0800

With enough practice you too might learn to write your name in the snow. Here's some training wheels to help you on your way.

By: PeterMcDermott

PeterMcDermott — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 08:00:39 -0800

in middle eastern / indian subcontinental / far eastern (perhaps also african?) sit-down toilets, men, well, sit down. You might do so, firas, but every one I've seen has been so disgusting that I'm standing up even to take a crap.

By: jeffburdges

jeffburdges — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 08:03:34 -0800

Very nice article! Hildegarde, Women can pee standing up, it takes more practice, but women who learn it find it an invaluable tool. Also, many men do pee sitting down, whenever its preferable to turnning on the lights. And now you know why men always install those dimmer switches: they don't want to site down. :) alasdair, You'd need a significant time delay, or you risk your seat falling at a bad time, so your machine requires a good timer. Oh, its unsafe to expect the guy to just give up & sit, many guys are stubborn & think they have good balance. BTW, squat toilets are clearly the best option for very dirty places, like bars.

By: kirkaracha

kirkaracha — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 08:04:05 -0800

I had to replace a cell phone because it fell in the toilet, and while I was in the shop another guy came in to replace his cell phone for the same reason.

By: teleskiving

teleskiving — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 08:07:50 -0800

Rosemere has it, switch to lid down and you'll never go back. No problems with stuff falling in or thirsty pets, no arguments over the position of the seat, no fine spray of whatever was in the toilet bowl all over the bathroom, and it just looks better. And if you're a guy, nobody will know if you sit or stand to pee - assuming your aim doesn't totally suck. FWIW, I find that toilet bowls make bad urinals and are annoying to use standing up.

By: Hildegarde

Hildegarde — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 08:21:40 -0800

I'm well aware that women can pee standing up. I just really have no desire to do so. Back when I was an outtripper it would have been useful (in the winter, when peeing meant having to take off valuable layers of clothing), but those days are over and now I'm living within a comfortable income. I even have a nice wooden toilet seat. The possibility of serious mess are so much greater; I like to keep a nice clean house.

By: jfuller

jfuller — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 08:39:03 -0800

> I'm well aware that women can pee standing up. I just really have no desire to do so. Aha. Well, I have, not the same feeling precisely, but a symmetrical disinclination which you understand perfectly now that you've given it a moment's thought. BTW the Sons of Aryas are all sitzpinklers nowadays. No wonder German women won't have their babies.

By: exlotuseater

exlotuseater — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 09:58:16 -0800

I will never understand why women can't just ~~sit down~~ stand up to pee. Actually, I can. But our choices are really just a matter of convenience, depending on gender. jfuller kinda nailed it.

By: Eideteker

Eideteker — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 10:20:28 -0800

I stand to pee because I'm too big to sit and pee. There, I said it. I don't want my dangly bits in water, nor do I want them crammed up against cold, nasty porcelain, spraying urine everywhere because my penis does not have a U-bend in it. I cannot physically sit far enough back on most toilets to keep myself from hitting the front porcelain. And I'm of fairly average dimensions, so I can't imagine I'm alone in feeling that far from emasculating, sitting and peeing is just plain uncomfortable. When crapping, I rest my doo-dads on the seat; it's better than being in the bowl. Also, include what was said above about needing to disrobe unnecessarily. It's particularly difficult to shuffle things when you also have a briefcase, or motorcycle gear like gloves and a helmet (which I can hold under one arm, gloves inside the helmet; but where do I put it when I need to sit? Not on the floor, certainly. My helmet alone costs more than the fixture. Easier to stand; it just is, sorry). In public restrooms (when unavoidable), I squat to crap. I don't care about hygeine statistics (I even believe 'em!), I just don't like the idea of getting wet and or dirty, even if I still won't get sick. That's just how I roll. I am trying to train my S.O. to put her and my lids down, as I dislike it when she knocks my things into the bowl. I can't understand how someone so clumsy (but lovely) can live with the lid up. She has never once complained about me putting the lid down, though, bless her heart. Over the roll. I want the paper to fall off the roll so as to eliminate the need to hunt and peck for fresh sheets. If you have a disagreement and the facilities to do so in your home, I suggest two rolls (as in a public convenience or many fine hotels), one over and one under. THERE. I HAVE SOLVED SOCIETY.

By: rosemere

rosemere — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 10:43:20 -0800

MetaFilter: THERE. I HAVE SOLVED SOCIETY. *will high five Eideteker for agreeing with me about the lid once he says that he actually washes his hands afterwards and doesn't just dampen them*

By: Pryde

Pryde — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 12:34:30 -0800

I'm firmly with the toilet-lid-AND-seat-down-when-not-in-use crowd. Anyone who leaves anything up gets yelled at regardless of gender and the nature of their bathroom activity. Paper goes over.

By: dhartung

dhartung — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 13:42:43 -0800

The Love Toilet solves all.

By: stilgar

stilgar — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 14:16:12 -0800

i have sat down to pee (think you got to shit turns out you dont) and find that i cant quite "shake it" right when i am sitting, and it results in "drippage" while standing i have none of these problems...am i the only man with this problem?

By: mikel

mikel — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 14:22:15 -0800

I'm with Pryde - the only real solution is both lid and seat down except when engaged in a specific operation. And in any kind of argument about this issue - good-humoured or not - it's the nuclear option, there can be no real discussion after that.

By: cmyk

cmyk — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 15:45:43 -0800

I have a dog big enough to drink from the toilet. Lid must be down when toilet is not in use. If anyone leaves it up, my dog is encouraged to go give them big sloppy kisses. Paper must go over the top of the roll, or I'll paw at it like a sad monkey at an empty food dispenser when I've just woken up.

By: jenovus

jenovus — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 16:36:16 -0800

I like the manner in which jfuller refuted Hildegarde.

By: Eideteker

Eideteker — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 17:40:03 -0800

rosemere : I wash my hands after a poop. I rinse after a pee. No need for soap; urine is sterile! Also, I've learned not to piss all over my hands by now. I love Ving Rhames' line as Don King in "Only in America," "I wash my hands before I touch my dick."

By: craven_morhead

craven_morhead — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 17:44:14 -0800

I dated a girl who's house had bathrooms. In those bathrooms were urinals with gold-plated handles. it was weird.

By: Fontbone

Fontbone — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 19:30:25 -0800

Eideteker and Stilgar have hit the nail on the head (you could say they have excellent aim) when it comes to my issues with this argument. I'm not a big fella, but it's rare to find a toilet designed such that I can sit comfortably, and I hate the feeling of cold porcelain on sensitive areas--water (hopefully just water) is even worse. Plus there's the standing drippage, which is almost unavoidable. All of it boils down to, for me, raising the seat when I go standing up, and lowering it afterward. It's not a big deal, it doesn't take so much time, and it's polite to any female users. Politeness is nice.

By: Devils Slide

Devils Slide — Sat, 04 Feb 2006 20:41:55 -0800

My solution: a pedal at the base. Men step on the pedal which raises the seat, do their bidness, and take their foot off the pedal which brings the seat back down. Don't any of you weasels try to patent it! It's going to make me rich and famous one day.