Ice vs. toilet water

February 15, 2006 7:51 AM

Jasmine Roberts, a seventh-grade student:"I found that 70-percent of the time, the ice from the fast food restaurant's contain more bacteria than the fast food restaurant's toilet water."
posted by riffola (63 comments total)

Maybe they should start putting bleach in the ice cubes too?
posted by hoverboards don't work on water at 7:55 AM on February 15, 2006

What kinds of bacteria though? I mean there are lots of kinds, some good, some bad. Why does the ice have more bacteria though? I'd have thought not much goes on bacteria wise at freezing point, and the toilets and the ice maker would get their water from the same source so why the disparity?
posted by zeoslap at 7:56 AM on February 15, 2006 [1 favorite]

Most fountains I've seen require ice to be added to the ice bin. I don't think they make their own ice.
posted by riffola at 8:00 AM on February 15, 2006

As hoverboards points out, it may have less bacteria but that doesn't mean it's drinkable. Bad science.
posted by phearlez at 8:00 AM on February 15, 2006

not surprised. i used to work at a few of those types of places. and though bacteria do not proliferate when frozen, they do tend tobecome active again once thawed. so its moot.

really, what should be doneis a more routinized cleaning of the units. quite frankly, i can tell you they aren't cleaned thoroughly often enough.
posted by Doorstop at 8:01 AM on February 15, 2006

From the fast food restaurant's what? Does it matter? Doesn't it matter? Ye gods.
posted by ~ at 8:01 AM on February 15, 2006

Toilet gets regular bleach doses, water lines and storage bins for ice machines, well, you actually have to spend some time cleaning them...

Not that I ever worked in fast food industry...really....no really. I'm serious!
posted by sfts2 at 8:02 AM on February 15, 2006

what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. bring on the bacteria.
posted by pmbuko at 8:03 AM on February 15, 2006

Interesting, and yucky, but then, those are relative numbers. How much bacteria is in the toilet water? If the answer is, as I might imagine, 'basically none' this could well be even more meaningless than it appears. I mean, it's toilet water. Fresh water that she's just flushed in. It comes from the same place as the water in the ice machines, and is probably passed through bleach on the way, unlike the ice machines.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:07 AM on February 15, 2006

What zeoslap said. She most likely just took water samples, diluted them, and tried to culture whatever was in there on a common media. This doesn't do a very good job of telling you "how many bacteria" there are in something, and it certainly won't tell you how many dangerous bacteria there are.
posted by rxrfrx at 8:08 AM on February 15, 2006

Reminds of study that found fecal matter on beer glasses in bars.
posted by stbalbach at 8:09 AM on February 15, 2006

I found that 70-percent of the time, the ice from the fast food restaurant's contain more bacteria...

Conclusion: Never trust anyone who doesn't know how to use an apostrophe. It burn's my eyes to read!
posted by anomie at 8:10 AM on February 15, 2006

A&W doesn't serve ice with their root beers.
posted by furtive at 8:12 AM on February 15, 2006

Reminds of study that found fecal matter on beer glasses in bars.

Well, considering the shit that comes out of the mouths of most people after a few beers, I'm not surprised.

Really though, this whole obsession with 'bacteria' is ridiculous. There's bacteria in your mouth, for christ's sake. Doesn't mean it'll kill you. It just might kill the person you are talking to, but not you.
posted by spicynuts at 8:14 AM on February 15, 2006

anomie, that quote from her was transcribed by whoever wrote the article. She says it in the video. I stupidly copied the quote without fixing any errors.
posted by riffola at 8:16 AM on February 15, 2006

It burn's my eyes to read!

Grammarians and Their Ways

So far, in the main, the language examined has been of a relatively pretentious and self-conscious variety—the speech, if not always of formal discourse, then at least of literate men. Most of the examples of its vocabulary and idiom, in fact, have been drawn from written documents or from written reports of more or less careful utterances, for example, the speeches of members of Congress and of other public men. The whole of Thornton’s excellent material is of this character. In his dictionary there is scarcely a locution that is not supported by printed examples.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 8:17 AM on February 15, 2006

See? You all laughed at me when I said I drank out of the toilet. Well, who's laughing now, people?
posted by Gamblor at 8:18 AM on February 15, 2006

In your typical restaurant they have a big icemaker (or two) in back which collects the harvested ice in a bin. People then scoop the ice from the bin into buckets which are then poured into secondary bins next to the fountains where the ice is scooped into cups prior to pouring drinks. As you can see there are two places where people will come in contact with the ice with there bare hands. Often the cashier will be the person dispnesing drinks. She may be handling both the cups and money with bare hands and not washing in between. The fountain ice storage may be washed everyday but it is exteremely unlikely the ice machine storage bin is emptied and washed every day.
posted by Mitheral at 8:20 AM on February 15, 2006

...and there's probably more bacteria on the coins you get in your change that there is in the ice cubes.
Antibiotics for everybody!!!
posted by rocket88 at 8:20 AM on February 15, 2006

Yeah I saw it in the article too. I thought the error was on the part of the seventh grader, not realizing it was a transcription error. That's even worse!

/just following in the MeFi tradition of paying more attention to the grammar of an article than its arguments.

TJH: That was supposed to be a funny.
posted by anomie at 8:21 AM on February 15, 2006

furtive writes "A&W doesn't serve ice with their root beers"

The do at the drive thru window, in the restaurant the use iced glasses.
posted by Mitheral at 8:22 AM on February 15, 2006

It's proof women shouldn't be doing science, but remain home raise kids ! It's clear these bacteria were cleverly concealed into restaurant food by an intelligent designers.

Also it should be noted workers are sloppy these days, why didn't they clean their hands before using the ice machine ? I claim it's the damn cheap workers that need more discipline and less pay..that'll show em.
posted by elpapacito at 8:22 AM on February 15, 2006

This just in: Seventh Grade Student Does Acceptable but Mostly Meaningless Research!
posted by blue_beetle at 8:28 AM on February 15, 2006

We should be making fun of the TV news for treating a 7th grader's science fair project the same as real scientific research.
posted by smackfu at 8:28 AM on February 15, 2006

Only one solution: BOTTLED ICE! Who's down for a 5 dollar contribution to an escrow account from MeFi member to brand, create, market, and distribute bottled ice? Let's start branding this shit. Now soliciting ideas for a product name. Bring it.
posted by spicynuts at 8:29 AM on February 15, 2006

Someone did the same thing with airplane ice and found that its pretty well poison.

elpapacito, and beatings during lunch breaks!
posted by fenriq at 8:29 AM on February 15, 2006

Nobody picked up on this?

She tested the samples at a lab at the Moffitt Cancer Center where she volunteers with a USF professor.

What the hell, is this the new standard for extracurricular activities? Is this as unusual as I think it is, or has the bar for college admissions been raised so high it is normal for a 13 year old to be volunteering at a cancer center?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:32 AM on February 15, 2006

Maybe the USF Professor is her mom or dad.
posted by spicynuts at 8:35 AM on February 15, 2006

Sure, fast food joints are bad news in a lot of ways, unless you have few funds or no other choice. But consider what the author of Fast Food Nation discovered: that there are more coliform bacteria in the average home kitchen sink than in the same home's toilet. As the author of that tome put it so succinctly: "a person is better off dropping a carrot into the toilet and fishing it out and eating it than dropping it into the kitchen sink and doing likewise" (or words very close to that effect.)
posted by telstar at 8:39 AM on February 15, 2006

And yet if I pour bleach into your Coke, I'm the monster!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:39 AM on February 15, 2006

Teach the debate.
posted by iamck at 8:46 AM on February 15, 2006

Brings to mind "pee mints."
posted by ericb at 8:47 AM on February 15, 2006

If there isn't facal matter on my beer glass, I won't drink from it.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:52 AM on February 15, 2006

Saing "X has more bacteria than the toilet" is much like saying "X is less risky than driving a car." The toilet is cleaner than you think, and cars are more dangerous than you think. It's more about perception than numbers.

Still, that's a pretty kick-ass seventh grader. I am impressed.
posted by selfmedicating at 8:53 AM on February 15, 2006

Awww...you guys broke it.
posted by rand at 8:57 AM on February 15, 2006

What's sad is that most people will probably react to this by consuming less ice rather than drinking more from the toilet.
posted by brain_drain at 9:09 AM on February 15, 2006

While provocative, it's kind of useless:

Which species? Lots of bacteria will grow on culture media. Not all, or even that many are dangerous.

How much? All we know is "more". We don't know if either number is anything to be concerned about. If both levels are safe for consumption, then the whole story is that fastfood restaurants have very clean toilets.
posted by bonehead at 9:12 AM on February 15, 2006

Reminds of study that found fecal matter on beer glasses in bars.

American beer, innit?
posted by kirkaracha at 9:13 AM on February 15, 2006

We should be making fun of the TV news for treating a 7th grader's science fair project the same as real scientific research.
Smackfu wins.
posted by uni verse at 9:15 AM on February 15, 2006

Germophobes are so silly. Including this 7th grader, and many commenters here.

Let me say this slowly, but bacteria are everywhere, on every surface, all the time.

Why do you think that every spray bottle of cleaner and every soap (and even laundry detergent) has "Kills 99.99% of bacteria" on it? Because even if you killed all but one, by tomorrow they will be back, all 100% of them. This is not a new scientific conclusion, it's been known since pasteur. I don't eat off the floor often, but the 5 second rule is just as "clean" as eating off the plates in your cupboard and utensils in your drawer. Don't be such freaking whiners.
posted by zpousman at 9:15 AM on February 15, 2006

"Using the sterile beaker I scooped up some water and closed the lid."


Perhaps it wasn't the 'restaurant sample' of ice/water that was contaminated but the cups themselves?
posted by underdog at 9:21 AM on February 15, 2006

Maybe the USF Professor is her mom or dad.
posted by spicynuts at 11:35 AM EST on February 15

If that's the case then that is some sloppy-ass* reporting.

*Sloppy-ass being the opposite of kick-ass.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:23 AM on February 15, 2006

Everything fast food restaurants do is bad.

Burn that into a 2 x 4 and beat yourself in the head again and again until you learn it once and for all.

And then go get a burger and fries.
posted by JWright at 9:37 AM on February 15, 2006

This reminds me of the toothbrush test on Mythbusters, where they basically concluded that fecal coliform bacteria are everywhere; there's no avoiding them. The toilet is cleaner because people hate dirty toilets, so they get disinfected every day. I suspect in toilet vs. anything, toilet would win.
posted by drinkcoffee at 9:40 AM on February 15, 2006

And they would have got away with it too... if it hadn't been for that pesky kid.
posted by papercake at 9:55 AM on February 15, 2006

More detailed information in this link.

Any MeFi's near USF that would like to go to the science fair today and report back?
posted by neurodoc at 10:03 AM on February 15, 2006

After a bit more hunting, I found this interesting article.

From it, we learn:

1) Science fairs and work at USF run in the family.
2) Little Jasmine has a great interest in ice and toilets, but struggles to come up with really new ideas (last year her science fair project was looking at bacteria in hotel ice and toilets).
3) RACER is a cool acronym.

(ok, so it's a slow work day here...)
posted by neurodoc at 10:15 AM on February 15, 2006

Speaking as a long-term science fair judge, I can confirm that:

1) Science geekery is strongly influenced by parents, especially where those parents have lab access (it's funny how many kids of NorTel workers do fibre optic whatsits)

2) The best science projects are the products of magnificent obsessions, as Jasmine seems to have (the ones downloaded fron the PBS websites are the worst).

3) Kids love cool acronyms and clever titles.

But also,

4) Give a beat reporter a technical story and there'll be a serious error or omission in their reporting every single time.
posted by bonehead at 10:29 AM on February 15, 2006

I heard this report on the local news a couple of days ago.

I knew exactly that they would be coming to the wrong conclusion: eeww, fast food ice is filthy and dangerous!

The correct conclusion is: bacteria are inescapably ubiquitous.

This is interesting and neat work for a seventh grader -- but she comes to the kind of narrow conclusions you would expect a 7th grader to come to. Sadly, the news outlets that pick up her work have absolutely no problem spreading that narrow, 7th-grade world view far and wide.

/shakes head ruefully

And for the record, toilets are generally very clean. In the average case, you're "better off" eating something out of the toilet than you are out of your kitchen sink. But what is lost in such a (vapidly) true statement is that more than 9 times out of 10, neither of those activities will be even a little bit harmful.

We have immune systems for a reason.
posted by teece at 10:45 AM on February 15, 2006

And then go get a burger and fries.



Bush spoke at Wendy's Ohio HQ's today about health care.
posted by ericb at 10:49 AM on February 15, 2006

Hmmm ... what was it he said in June 2002?

"Americans who are obese spend approximately 36 percent more on health care services than the general population. They spend 77 percent more on medications."

But, nothing today about bacteria.
posted by ericb at 10:51 AM on February 15, 2006

Eh, I did the same thing when in 8th grade science class.

Toilets/washrooms are surprisingly free of bacteria (aside from visible glops of fecal matter). Public telephones, doorhandles, and busses are choke full of bacteria.
posted by PurplePorpoise at 11:25 AM on February 15, 2006

MetaFilter: I am better than your kids.
posted by Space Coyote at 12:40 PM on February 15, 2006

Is this the same kid that did the study on aircraft water quality? This kid is the Chuck Norris of germ detection.
posted by mecran01 at 12:42 PM on February 15, 2006

bottled ice? Let's start branding this shit. Now soliciting ideas for a product name. Bring it.
posted by spicynuts at 8:29 AM PST on February 15 [!]


N'ICE
posted by Miles Long at 1:31 PM on February 15, 2006

X'Treme ICE
posted by Miles Long at 1:32 PM on February 15, 2006

Little Jasmine has a great interest in ice and toilets, but struggles to come up with really new ideas

hilarious. wtf is this local news?
posted by mrgrimm at 3:14 PM on February 15, 2006

Lesson learned. Psudoscience that is alarming earns you celebrity. Fame > All.

Welcome to "The Machine" Jasmine Roberts.
posted by thanatogenous at 3:18 PM on February 15, 2006

According to this site, one gram of human poop contains about 5 million viable E coli per gram and more than 25 million viable bacterial of all types per gram.

So, a single, average dump probably contains on the order of 5 billion, while this girl found 54 per ml in the worst case.
posted by shoos at 4:45 PM on February 15, 2006

Actually that 25 million should be 10 billion, and the 5 billion should be 2 trillion.

That would leave the girl's worse case showing a bacterial concentration in ice that is approximately 200,000,000X lower than in poo. We need a FPP decrying poo management policy by cowboy corporate America.
posted by shoos at 6:04 PM on February 15, 2006

I really like that web site's weird news section...


Funny stuff there every day...
posted by mad_little_monkey at 6:28 PM on February 15, 2006

If you think toilets and fast-food ice are bad, you should try plating a sample from a tube of lipstick. Bacterialicious!
posted by kamikazegopher at 6:52 PM on February 15, 2006

Upon reading that article, I discovered that science fairs have more than their fair share of money to give away.

Apparently little Jasmine received "800 hundred dollars" as her prize. Not a bad haul for a 13 year old.
posted by chronic sublime at 1:59 AM on February 16, 2006