No gringo, No fly.
February 24, 2006 12:08 PM Subscribe
Venezuela bans US Airlines. The Chavez government announced yesterday that as of March 1st, Continental and Delta will no longer be allowed to fly into Venezuela, and American's flights will be restricted significantly (allowing AA to continue their Miami to Caracas route, which is the same one that Aeropostal flies to the US). We've talked about Chavez in the blue before, and this may be simple political posturing in an effort to open more routes for Aeropostal and other Venezuelan airlines, but between this, and the recent comments by Rumsfeld, Condoleezza Rice and Porter Goss, are we looking at a new low in US/Venezuela relations?
Flight will resume sometime; the US will eventually need to invade Venezuala and bring freedom to the oil fields.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 12:12 PM on February 24, 2006
posted by The Jesse Helms at 12:12 PM on February 24, 2006
"a new low in US/Venezuela relations"
You mean lower than when Bush expressed support for a coup designed to remove a democratically elected President?
posted by OmieWise at 12:15 PM on February 24, 2006
You mean lower than when Bush expressed support for a coup designed to remove a democratically elected President?
posted by OmieWise at 12:15 PM on February 24, 2006
jesse : you liberal, first sell weapons to them, train them..only after that you invade them and freedomacate them
posted by elpapacito at 12:15 PM on February 24, 2006
posted by elpapacito at 12:15 PM on February 24, 2006
I guess that should be BushCo, I can't remember who issued the supporting statements.
posted by OmieWise at 12:16 PM on February 24, 2006
posted by OmieWise at 12:16 PM on February 24, 2006
toxic:
How is it to be an American in Venezuela just now? It's on my travel list, but I'll skip it for now if the locals are burning us in effigy.
posted by tkolar at 12:20 PM on February 24, 2006
How is it to be an American in Venezuela just now? It's on my travel list, but I'll skip it for now if the locals are burning us in effigy.
posted by tkolar at 12:20 PM on February 24, 2006
You know what would be funny? A flight carrying Pat Robertson diverts to Venezuela. I'd laugh until I squeezed out a couple of hot amber drops.
posted by illiad at 12:21 PM on February 24, 2006
posted by illiad at 12:21 PM on February 24, 2006
It's on my travel list, but I'll skip it for now if the locals are burning us in effigy.
Unless you are in the Administration, I don't think the locals are burning you in effigy. No, after their heating oil deals and pledge of Katrina aid, I'd say unless you are Bush or Condi, you aren't the one they are mad at. But, toxic would know best.
posted by Pollomacho at 12:24 PM on February 24, 2006
Unless you are in the Administration, I don't think the locals are burning you in effigy. No, after their heating oil deals and pledge of Katrina aid, I'd say unless you are Bush or Condi, you aren't the one they are mad at. But, toxic would know best.
posted by Pollomacho at 12:24 PM on February 24, 2006
You mean lower than when Bush expressed support for a coup designed to remove a democratically elected President?
(It was Ari Fleischer, speaking for the White House. That's not much different from Bush saying it himself)
Oh, we did more than that. We helped to fund the coup.
It is still the official policy of the US and the White House to support efforts to overthrow, oust, or otherwise get rid of Chavez. We've never rescinded that. We've just continued to tack on more and more negative statements... hence my use of "new low".
posted by toxic at 12:25 PM on February 24, 2006
(It was Ari Fleischer, speaking for the White House. That's not much different from Bush saying it himself)
Oh, we did more than that. We helped to fund the coup.
It is still the official policy of the US and the White House to support efforts to overthrow, oust, or otherwise get rid of Chavez. We've never rescinded that. We've just continued to tack on more and more negative statements... hence my use of "new low".
posted by toxic at 12:25 PM on February 24, 2006
I didn't even know Effigy was IN Venezuela.
*runs to check atlas*
posted by Floydd at 12:27 PM on February 24, 2006
*runs to check atlas*
posted by Floydd at 12:27 PM on February 24, 2006
They're taking steps to keep terrorists out!
posted by sourwookie at 12:28 PM on February 24, 2006
posted by sourwookie at 12:28 PM on February 24, 2006
Oh, by the way tkolar, if you are in the Administration, I have a couple books I think you should read...
posted by Pollomacho at 12:30 PM on February 24, 2006
posted by Pollomacho at 12:30 PM on February 24, 2006
So who's he going to sell all that natural gas and oil too? It's under my impression that natural gas distribution must be somewhat local (as oppose to running a pipeline to China). At least OPEC knows it is in their best economic interest to give us a little reach-around. The US is the gorilla in the political and economic arena, Chavez's oil fields will dry up some time -- if he really wanted to get back at us he'd create an amazing tertiary education system and pour money into military R&D and tech development. Or he can leave most his people relatively poor and cut off a few flights. While I appreciate his dissent I no longer wonder whether he wishes to prevent and stop exploitation by first world nations or if he wishes to help the people of Venezuala.
posted by geoff. at 12:33 PM on February 24, 2006
posted by geoff. at 12:33 PM on February 24, 2006
How is it to be an American in Venezuela just now?
I love it. The country is beautiful, and unlike anywhere else I've ever been. If you're not the typical loud, brash, overbearing, ugly, pompus, fat-assed American (you know, the ones that seem to be endemic to Cancun, and just speak LOUDER when a local doesn't understand their language), the people here don't hate you, and aren't buring effigies just yet. They don't hate Americans, just our government. Virtually everyone I've met has been thrilled to learn I'm from California (for one reason or another, people in several Latin American countries seem to guess that I'm Italian, not American, until I tell them otherwise)
You do need to be able to speak some Spanish to be able to comfortably live here for any length of time. I see that as a positive thing.
posted by toxic at 12:33 PM on February 24, 2006
I love it. The country is beautiful, and unlike anywhere else I've ever been. If you're not the typical loud, brash, overbearing, ugly, pompus, fat-assed American (you know, the ones that seem to be endemic to Cancun, and just speak LOUDER when a local doesn't understand their language), the people here don't hate you, and aren't buring effigies just yet. They don't hate Americans, just our government. Virtually everyone I've met has been thrilled to learn I'm from California (for one reason or another, people in several Latin American countries seem to guess that I'm Italian, not American, until I tell them otherwise)
You do need to be able to speak some Spanish to be able to comfortably live here for any length of time. I see that as a positive thing.
posted by toxic at 12:33 PM on February 24, 2006
You do need to be able to speak some Spanish to be able to comfortably live here for any length of time. I see that as a positive thing.
Why can't more American travellers adopt this attitude? Not saying there aren't quite a few, there just aren't enough.
It happens among Canadians too, although IME I've come across fewer Canadian dorks that think the entire world should speak English just because they do. Maybe it's because we have two official languages.
posted by illiad at 12:37 PM on February 24, 2006
Why can't more American travellers adopt this attitude? Not saying there aren't quite a few, there just aren't enough.
It happens among Canadians too, although IME I've come across fewer Canadian dorks that think the entire world should speak English just because they do. Maybe it's because we have two official languages.
posted by illiad at 12:37 PM on February 24, 2006
So who's he going to sell all that natural gas and oil too?
uhh... everybody else in the world? You don't need to sell just locally, because the oil market has multiple ways to buy and sell oil abstractly: commodity certificates, futures, company stock, etc. These can be bought or sold anywhere.
posted by sonofsamiam at 12:39 PM on February 24, 2006
uhh... everybody else in the world? You don't need to sell just locally, because the oil market has multiple ways to buy and sell oil abstractly: commodity certificates, futures, company stock, etc. These can be bought or sold anywhere.
posted by sonofsamiam at 12:39 PM on February 24, 2006
They don't hate Americans, just our government.
So in other words, they are no different than 50% of all Americans.
posted by any major dude at 12:39 PM on February 24, 2006
So in other words, they are no different than 50% of all Americans.
posted by any major dude at 12:39 PM on February 24, 2006
The US couldn't even bare to let a full oil embargo of Iraq stand, so I very much doubt it;s going to tsart doing that kind of thing now.
posted by Artw at 12:43 PM on February 24, 2006
posted by Artw at 12:43 PM on February 24, 2006
So who's he going to sell all that natural gas and oil too?
China. India. Does he need any other buyers?
posted by Pollomacho at 12:44 PM on February 24, 2006
China. India. Does he need any other buyers?
posted by Pollomacho at 12:44 PM on February 24, 2006
Not that Venezuela matters as much as Canada for oil. Your northern neighbours are the #1 exporter of oil and gas to the U.S., and we're a bunch of commie liberal pinko scum up here.
Didn't one of our senior ministerial aides call Bush a "moron" a few years back? I can see Air Canada being barred from entering U.S. airspace any day now.
posted by illiad at 12:47 PM on February 24, 2006
Didn't one of our senior ministerial aides call Bush a "moron" a few years back? I can see Air Canada being barred from entering U.S. airspace any day now.
posted by illiad at 12:47 PM on February 24, 2006
illiad wrote:
Why can't more American travellers adopt this attitude [about languages]? Not saying there aren't quite a few, there just aren't enough.
It's odd, I've never run into an Ugly American outside of a major tourist zone. And since I skip the tourist zones wherever possible, the only place I ever run into them is inside the United States.
I've met quite a number of travelling Americans outside the U.S. over the years, and the only ones who are consistently disrespectful of other people are the religious I'm-here-to-convert-the-heathens types. And even they recognize the need to speak the local language.
posted by tkolar at 12:51 PM on February 24, 2006
Why can't more American travellers adopt this attitude [about languages]? Not saying there aren't quite a few, there just aren't enough.
It's odd, I've never run into an Ugly American outside of a major tourist zone. And since I skip the tourist zones wherever possible, the only place I ever run into them is inside the United States.
I've met quite a number of travelling Americans outside the U.S. over the years, and the only ones who are consistently disrespectful of other people are the religious I'm-here-to-convert-the-heathens types. And even they recognize the need to speak the local language.
posted by tkolar at 12:51 PM on February 24, 2006
toxic wrote:
They don't hate Americans, just our government.
Thanks. If I let that stop me I'd never leave the country :-)
-T
posted by tkolar at 12:52 PM on February 24, 2006
They don't hate Americans, just our government.
Thanks. If I let that stop me I'd never leave the country :-)
-T
posted by tkolar at 12:52 PM on February 24, 2006
It's odd, I've never run into an Ugly American outside of a major tourist zone. And since I skip the tourist zones wherever possible, the only place I ever run into them is inside the United States.
Good on you! I too have the same experience. It staggers me that so many North Americans (I'm purposely including Canadians because we sure don't have unsoiled hands in this matter) travel to other countries only to stay in the tourist zones. In the Dominican Republic (which I love, adore and hope to retire to one day) the tourist resorts have high walls, barbed wire and guards armed with shotguns at the entrances. Of course, the guards are simply there to convince the tourists that it's terribly dangerous outside the resorts. As a result, the tourists pay resort (read "North American") prices.
So a pair of flip-flops in a local bodega might run you the equivalent of US$1.00. In the resort, the exact same pair is US$15.00.
When I see a tourist treating a local rudely I confess I'm sorely tempted to speak in another language to them, but loudly, as if they were either deaf or stupid. I suspect one of the choices is probably correct.
posted by illiad at 12:59 PM on February 24, 2006
Good on you! I too have the same experience. It staggers me that so many North Americans (I'm purposely including Canadians because we sure don't have unsoiled hands in this matter) travel to other countries only to stay in the tourist zones. In the Dominican Republic (which I love, adore and hope to retire to one day) the tourist resorts have high walls, barbed wire and guards armed with shotguns at the entrances. Of course, the guards are simply there to convince the tourists that it's terribly dangerous outside the resorts. As a result, the tourists pay resort (read "North American") prices.
So a pair of flip-flops in a local bodega might run you the equivalent of US$1.00. In the resort, the exact same pair is US$15.00.
When I see a tourist treating a local rudely I confess I'm sorely tempted to speak in another language to them, but loudly, as if they were either deaf or stupid. I suspect one of the choices is probably correct.
posted by illiad at 12:59 PM on February 24, 2006
Didn't one of our senior ministerial aides call Bush a "moron" a few years back?
MP Carolyn Parrish . She didn't reun for reelection and is no longer a MP. Her shit didn't fly to well and she eventually left the party over the issue of being a loud-mouth.
posted by GuyZero at 12:59 PM on February 24, 2006
MP Carolyn Parrish . She didn't reun for reelection and is no longer a MP. Her shit didn't fly to well and she eventually left the party over the issue of being a loud-mouth.
posted by GuyZero at 12:59 PM on February 24, 2006
Right, Parrish, thanks for the reminder GuyZero.
I like loud-mouths; we need at least a few in Parliament, especially ones who are impolitic and correct.
posted by illiad at 1:01 PM on February 24, 2006
I like loud-mouths; we need at least a few in Parliament, especially ones who are impolitic and correct.
posted by illiad at 1:01 PM on February 24, 2006
It was Ari Fleischer
It was also Colin Powell, to further abuse his smashed into the ground credibility. To get a handle on what was going on at that time, it's really worth watching "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" which is hard to get ahold of in the us, but we managed to get a copy from here:
http://www.venezuelasolidarity.org.uk/ven/web/dvd/dvd.html
It's a bit one-sided, but there's no doubt that we actively participated in the military overthrow of a democratically elected leader. We're still harboring the leader of the coup in Miami. Chavez' speech his first minutes out of hiding are deeply inspirational and sound uncomfortably close to the American founding fathers. Just shows you how far we've moved away from that.
I previously thought it was a little paranoid sounding when Chavez would say that the CIA was trying to kill him. After watching that documentary, I think it might be true.
posted by lumpenprole at 1:12 PM on February 24, 2006
It was also Colin Powell, to further abuse his smashed into the ground credibility. To get a handle on what was going on at that time, it's really worth watching "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" which is hard to get ahold of in the us, but we managed to get a copy from here:
http://www.venezuelasolidarity.org.uk/ven/web/dvd/dvd.html
It's a bit one-sided, but there's no doubt that we actively participated in the military overthrow of a democratically elected leader. We're still harboring the leader of the coup in Miami. Chavez' speech his first minutes out of hiding are deeply inspirational and sound uncomfortably close to the American founding fathers. Just shows you how far we've moved away from that.
I previously thought it was a little paranoid sounding when Chavez would say that the CIA was trying to kill him. After watching that documentary, I think it might be true.
posted by lumpenprole at 1:12 PM on February 24, 2006
"Natural gas can be transported by sea."
Or by heighliner, Atreides? The gas must flow! ;)
It's much more difficult to do that, since you need elaborate infrastructure at both ends. But it's not impossible. Does Venezuela have a NG liquefaction/shipping port facility?
posted by zoogleplex at 1:18 PM on February 24, 2006
Or by heighliner, Atreides? The gas must flow! ;)
It's much more difficult to do that, since you need elaborate infrastructure at both ends. But it's not impossible. Does Venezuela have a NG liquefaction/shipping port facility?
posted by zoogleplex at 1:18 PM on February 24, 2006
Fun fact I just learned about Chavez - he's pals with Carlos the Jackal, and has chats with him in his French jail! I wonder if Harry Belafonte gets jealous?
posted by loquax at 1:59 PM on February 24, 2006
posted by loquax at 1:59 PM on February 24, 2006
Socialism is so 20th century....
posted by MarshallPoe at 2:03 PM on February 24, 2006
posted by MarshallPoe at 2:03 PM on February 24, 2006
Great. Now oil speculators will freak out, and gas prices will rise. Then Exxon will report massive profits once again.
Wheeee!
Who's next? Can we piss off Canada somehow?
posted by drstein at 2:20 PM on February 24, 2006
Wheeee!
Who's next? Can we piss off Canada somehow?
posted by drstein at 2:20 PM on February 24, 2006
Socialism is so 20th century....
Yeah, so apparantly, are free elections.....
posted by lumpenprole at 2:21 PM on February 24, 2006
Yeah, so apparantly, are free elections.....
posted by lumpenprole at 2:21 PM on February 24, 2006
You know the US is responsible for the socialist revival in the Americas.
US policy has always assumed hegemony in the Americas, and when you combine right wing war-mongering administration in the US with the fact that small-c conservatives throughout the Americas greet their policies with an uncritical spirit of veneration you get a populace who knows the only people they can really trust are the socialists.
Even in Canada, we may have a conservative government but the NDP is its strongest in 20 years.
posted by Deep Dish at 2:21 PM on February 24, 2006
US policy has always assumed hegemony in the Americas, and when you combine right wing war-mongering administration in the US with the fact that small-c conservatives throughout the Americas greet their policies with an uncritical spirit of veneration you get a populace who knows the only people they can really trust are the socialists.
Even in Canada, we may have a conservative government but the NDP is its strongest in 20 years.
posted by Deep Dish at 2:21 PM on February 24, 2006
drstein:
No, you can't. That's among losing a war to France and successfully invading Russia :)
posted by qvantamon at 2:25 PM on February 24, 2006
No, you can't. That's among losing a war to France and successfully invading Russia :)
posted by qvantamon at 2:25 PM on February 24, 2006
No!! I was planning a month-ish-long vacation in Venezuela this summer with my friend (who is Venezuelan).
This puts a damper on things. :(
posted by p3on at 2:28 PM on February 24, 2006
This puts a damper on things. :(
posted by p3on at 2:28 PM on February 24, 2006
p3on : "This puts a damper on things. :("
No big deal, fly to Brazil, Colombia or Panama and take a plane to Venezuela from there.
posted by nkyad at 2:37 PM on February 24, 2006
No big deal, fly to Brazil, Colombia or Panama and take a plane to Venezuela from there.
posted by nkyad at 2:37 PM on February 24, 2006
are we looking at a new low in US/Venezuela relations?
Hard to say. I keep thinking things can't get any worse, but then they do. So much petty sniping from both sides, it's not very civilized. Probably worth pointing out that the U.S. policy on Venezuelan airliners is a decade old -- that is, it was in place before Chavez was president, and its implementation had nothing to do with him. It also was handed down because of safety issues, in contrast to this which is more tit-for-tat retaliatory. All that said, I'm sure nobody in Washington is rushing to lift the restriction because they want to reward Chavez. Which is to say I have no idea whether to believe the Venezuela government's claims that its safety standards have improved. I leave that to the aeronautical engineers in the audience.
This is pretty much how I find myself assessing all the rhetoric coming from both sides these days. Plots to invade militarily and overthrow? I'm skeptical. A destabilizing menace to the region? Same. Chavez's offer to send heating oil to poor people in New England? A nice gesture, though no doubt more about winning political points and embarrassing the GWB administration (mission accomplished; not that shaming Washington is all that hard these days tho). Unfair legislative elections last fall? That's not what the OAS and EU election observers said (although Hugo's limitations of the press, prosecution of opponents, and general consolidation of power should make folks nervous).
I think the safest course is to assume it's all bullshit posturing, almost all either fabrication or grossly spun untruths. With a little luck we'll move beyond it in a few years.
posted by donpedro at 2:56 PM on February 24, 2006
Hard to say. I keep thinking things can't get any worse, but then they do. So much petty sniping from both sides, it's not very civilized. Probably worth pointing out that the U.S. policy on Venezuelan airliners is a decade old -- that is, it was in place before Chavez was president, and its implementation had nothing to do with him. It also was handed down because of safety issues, in contrast to this which is more tit-for-tat retaliatory. All that said, I'm sure nobody in Washington is rushing to lift the restriction because they want to reward Chavez. Which is to say I have no idea whether to believe the Venezuela government's claims that its safety standards have improved. I leave that to the aeronautical engineers in the audience.
This is pretty much how I find myself assessing all the rhetoric coming from both sides these days. Plots to invade militarily and overthrow? I'm skeptical. A destabilizing menace to the region? Same. Chavez's offer to send heating oil to poor people in New England? A nice gesture, though no doubt more about winning political points and embarrassing the GWB administration (mission accomplished; not that shaming Washington is all that hard these days tho). Unfair legislative elections last fall? That's not what the OAS and EU election observers said (although Hugo's limitations of the press, prosecution of opponents, and general consolidation of power should make folks nervous).
I think the safest course is to assume it's all bullshit posturing, almost all either fabrication or grossly spun untruths. With a little luck we'll move beyond it in a few years.
posted by donpedro at 2:56 PM on February 24, 2006
Ever since Chavez called Bush a pendejo, I've been dying to visit Venezuela. I guess this may complicate things a bit. Still less risky than being an American travelling to Cuba and risking imprisonment for "trading with the enemy" ...
posted by bcveen at 3:00 PM on February 24, 2006
posted by bcveen at 3:00 PM on February 24, 2006
This puts a damper on things.
No hay problema. It's not impossible to fly directly between the US and Venezuela, it's just become marginally more difficult.
At the moment, Aeropostal flights between Miami and Caracas are not affected (beyond probably being more crowded), and American Airlines is still allowed to fly the MIA to CCS route three times a day.
posted by toxic at 3:03 PM on February 24, 2006
No hay problema. It's not impossible to fly directly between the US and Venezuela, it's just become marginally more difficult.
At the moment, Aeropostal flights between Miami and Caracas are not affected (beyond probably being more crowded), and American Airlines is still allowed to fly the MIA to CCS route three times a day.
posted by toxic at 3:03 PM on February 24, 2006
Ever since Chavez called Bush a pendejo, I've been dying to visit Venezuela.
Don't forget his favorite term for GWB, "Mr. Danger." But I'm not sure I buy the "any enemy of my enemy" rationale for lionizing Chavez. I have no illusions about certain governments that are at odds with Bush. No desire to visit Tehran simply because Iran's president labels the U.S. "the Great Satan," or Pyongyang, simply because of North Korea's similarly spicy rhetoric. Chavez should be judged on his own merits, not just because he's a burr under the current U.S. administration's saddle blanket. Time will tell whether Chavez turns out to be good or bad for his country. My suspicion is that history will not judge him too kindly, though I also don't think he'll turn out to be the bogeyman some suggest. (I should say outright that I recognize the legitimacy of his mandate to govern -- though I think he may be leaning toward overreaching -- and should not be overthrown or even undermined by foreign powers, or unseated by a domestic coup either.)
But by all means, go visit. I've heard wonderful things. Cuba too (that's where I'd like to go), though I'm not exactly carrying a hard-on for Fidel. :)
posted by donpedro at 3:19 PM on February 24, 2006
Don't forget his favorite term for GWB, "Mr. Danger." But I'm not sure I buy the "any enemy of my enemy" rationale for lionizing Chavez. I have no illusions about certain governments that are at odds with Bush. No desire to visit Tehran simply because Iran's president labels the U.S. "the Great Satan," or Pyongyang, simply because of North Korea's similarly spicy rhetoric. Chavez should be judged on his own merits, not just because he's a burr under the current U.S. administration's saddle blanket. Time will tell whether Chavez turns out to be good or bad for his country. My suspicion is that history will not judge him too kindly, though I also don't think he'll turn out to be the bogeyman some suggest. (I should say outright that I recognize the legitimacy of his mandate to govern -- though I think he may be leaning toward overreaching -- and should not be overthrown or even undermined by foreign powers, or unseated by a domestic coup either.)
But by all means, go visit. I've heard wonderful things. Cuba too (that's where I'd like to go), though I'm not exactly carrying a hard-on for Fidel. :)
posted by donpedro at 3:19 PM on February 24, 2006
Don't forget his favorite term for GWB, "Mr. Danger."
That's just his middle name.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:39 PM on February 24, 2006
That's just his middle name.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 4:39 PM on February 24, 2006
Rep. Joe Barton of Texas, chair of the House Committee on Energy and Commerce, is currently grandstanding by demanding an "investigation" into Venezuela's discounted heating fuel program.
posted by Creosote at 6:33 PM on February 24, 2006
posted by Creosote at 6:33 PM on February 24, 2006
Hey, for those currently in Venezuela and around Caracas - is it true that it now takes around 4 hours to get from the MaiquetÃa airport to Caracas, due to the tunnel closure? (Previously a 30 minute trip through the mountain)
There was some rumbling in the media last month that this would severely curtail tourist travel to Venezuela this summer anyway. The political grandstanding Chavez is doing now probably is "affordable" because of a predicted decrease in touism.
A second impact is that all the workers serving the tourist industry along the coastline around the airport would have to come from Caracas - again, a 2-4 hours one-way commute.
posted by Qubit at 10:08 PM on February 24, 2006
There was some rumbling in the media last month that this would severely curtail tourist travel to Venezuela this summer anyway. The political grandstanding Chavez is doing now probably is "affordable" because of a predicted decrease in touism.
A second impact is that all the workers serving the tourist industry along the coastline around the airport would have to come from Caracas - again, a 2-4 hours one-way commute.
posted by Qubit at 10:08 PM on February 24, 2006
It was a bridge, actually, but yeah. (I am not near Caracas or elsewhere in Venezuela.)
posted by donpedro at 11:32 PM on February 24, 2006
posted by donpedro at 11:32 PM on February 24, 2006
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posted by toxic at 12:09 PM on February 24, 2006