Join 3,520 readers in helping fund MetaFilter (Hide)


Blue Devils screwed but good
April 5, 2006 7:22 PM   Subscribe

Go team. I have been struggling with my outrage over this story (the details of what seems very likely to have happened and the terrible, horrible one offs comments that I've read about in response to it) for over a week now. It seems odd that no one has posted the story on MeFi, given its implications on class, race, race relations in an integrated southern city, elite educational institutions, frat boy mayhem (to an extreme), and when no means no and it doesn't matter who is saying it. One thing's for sure, this story keeps getting worse.
posted by psmealey (151 comments total)

 

How dare you editorialize on a FPP!

I'm kidding of course. Thanks for bringing this up... seen it simmering here and there but it doesn't seem to be getting nearly the attention it deserves, especially considering the inane psuedo-spectacles that dominate a week's worth of news cycles.
posted by bukharin at 7:42 PM on April 5, 2006


"It was not clear whether the message was serious or a joke."

sos
posted by parki at 7:42 PM on April 5, 2006


It's actually been brought up here, but no one said much about it.
posted by dilettante at 7:43 PM on April 5, 2006


"While the language of the e-mail is vile, the e-mail itself is perfectly consistent with the boys' unequivocal assertion that no sexual assault took place that evening," said attorney Robert Ekstrand. The e-mail "demonstrates that its writer is completely unaware that any act or event remotely similar to what has been alleged ever occurred."
What Mr. Ekstrand did NOT go on to say was that the email itself is ALSO perfect consistent with an attitude of violent misogyny that either allowed -- or permitted non participants to be indifferent to -- the sexual assault that allegedly took place.

More than one way to slice that cat, I think.
posted by psmealey at 7:45 PM on April 5, 2006




Although if there's one thing Drudge is good for, it's linking to stories like this... he's had it up on his site for a week. And yet 9 U.S. soldiers died in Iraq yesterday, the highest one-day total all year, and there was no mention of it, on Drudge or almost anywhere else. I only saw it on Juan Cole.
posted by bukharin at 7:46 PM on April 5, 2006


Thanks, dilettante. I had been scanning MeFi for this story for over a week now, and I missed that... Leave it to delmoi.
posted by psmealey at 7:48 PM on April 5, 2006


I have been following this story...and am reserving judgment.

I want to hear more about the evidence -- particularly the strange 911 calls made ... as well as the results of the DNA tests of 46 of the 47 players.

I admit that the recent distasteful e-mail message authored by a player, the resignation of a coach and the prior assault (which may have been a gay-bashing) in D.C. by another player don't shed any redeeming light on some of the Duke lacrosse team.

Having followed the interviews by Dan Abrams on MSNBC, there are questions for me to withhold judgment on the situation.

I await the findings of the investigation before I come to a judgment.
posted by ericb at 7:49 PM on April 5, 2006


A common scam for escorts is to take an initial fee and then dance for a couple minutes without taking off any clothing, "no nudity".

"Oh, would you like to see my boobs? That'll be another $25."

"You want to see me in just my panties? That'll be another $50."

"Give me another $100 and I won't wear anything but my shoes."

Lingerie modeling works the same way.

Now, reread that email and see if you come away with a different interpretation.
posted by mischief at 7:49 PM on April 5, 2006


One would think a "Rape Probe" would be something else entirely.
posted by wigu at 7:51 PM on April 5, 2006


Integrated Southern city?? Hardly. There is a pretty big divide in Durham between the school and the town, between black and white, between poor and affluent. Durham is 68th most dangerous city according to this poll. A sad, stark contrast to the seemingly polished college campus. Every night or two it is no big deal to hear about another shooting in Durham (usually black on black crime).

And according to another:
Duke received a fifth-worst ranking out of 361 colleges in the latest Princeton Review survey of so-called “town-gown” relations—the interaction between a major academic institution and its surrounding community.
posted by TheLibrarian at 7:55 PM on April 5, 2006


It seems odd that no one has posted the story on MeFi

Perhaps in a burst of uncharacteristic restraint, everyone is waiting for the DNA evidence to be analyzed and charges to be filed.

Seriously, it seems like justice is right on track with this incident. I think I'll wait for the trial and sentencing before getting particularly outraged about it.

Basically, what three drunken southern white frat boys did to a black exotic dancer has nothing new to tell us about class, race, race relations, educational institutions, or when no means no. How the southern judicial establishment deals with it will tell us a lot.
posted by tkolar at 7:56 PM on April 5, 2006


mischief nailed it for us, and got a new mastercard commercial out of it to boot:
posted by Tommy Gnosis at 7:56 PM on April 5, 2006


If there are details deeply troubling to those who most want to stand by the victim, then it seems I have no chance of knowing what happened to who or why or how defeasible my assumptions are, so I'm inclined to forget about it and let the courts sort out what happened. Outrage at this point is likely to just make me feel foolish later. Socially speaking, an irresistable force has met and immovable object. I'm just going to throw up my hands and wait it out. :-/
posted by -harlequin- at 7:58 PM on April 5, 2006


Dan Abrams interviewing James “Butch” Williams, and Kerry Sutton
"ABRAMS: All right, Mr. Williams, you've made some comments about a 911 call that was presumably made an hour before this incident. This is the 911 call:

911 DISPATCHER: Durham 911. Where is your emergency?

CALLER: I don't know if this is an emergency, but I'm in Durham and I was driving down near Duke's campus and it's me and my black girlfriend and the guy, there's like a white guy by the Duke wall and he just hollered out (BEEP) to me and I'm just so angry. I saw them all come out like a big frat house and me and my black girlfriend are walking by and they called us (BEEP). I'm not going to press the issue I guess, but I live in a neighborhood where they wrote KKK on the side of a white station wagon and that's near right where I'm at. They didn't harm me in any way, but I just feel so completely offended.

ABRAMS: Mr. Williams, as you know, a neighbor had also claimed that he heard one of the young men in the house yelling at the women who were African American, thank your grandfather for my cotton shirt.

WILLIAMS: Well, I hadn't seen that. There's a lot of scuttlebut going around about this and about that. You listen to the tape and listen to the discrepancies in the tape, first I was driving by, then I was walking by, and if you go ahead to the second tape that gave the address.

There's no numbers on that particular house. So anyone looking at that house at night could not be able to identify numerically what number is on that house, unless they've been there. Is this a product of a setup? Those are things that we're going to be able to determine and ferret out in the shortcoming or in the shortcoming time that the investigators, private investigators are investigating this particular matter.

ABRAMS: So Mr. Williams, let me just understand what you're saying. You're saying that you think it's possible that the woman who made that 911 call made it an hour before the incident as part of a plan to later make accusations against these young men? So they get someone to call 911, say that there were racially charge statements made, then the women go into the house, they come out, they make the allegations. You're saying this may have all been part of a concerted plot?

WILLIAMS: Certainly seems kind of pat to me.

ABRAMS: What do you mean by that?

WILLIAMS: That it's all contrived.

Where is the young lady? Why hasn't the person who made that call come forward? I mean it's been in all of the news outlets, the news media has printed it. Why haven't they come forward to say yes, I made that 911 call that night. And why was a certain emphasis on me and my black friend. I mean people don't call and make phone calls like that. We're going to get to the bottom of what the motives are in this particular matter.

ABRAMS: So it sounds like you're saying you think it might have been one of the women involved here making the call?

WILLIAMS: Oh, OK. Now you're starting to see where I'm going."
posted by ericb at 7:58 PM on April 5, 2006


Link to Abrams interview.
posted by ericb at 7:59 PM on April 5, 2006


What will it take for a small community, such as a college, to deal with a rape accusation properly? Situations like this always break my heart for all involved parties. What needs to happen?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:59 PM on April 5, 2006 [1 favorite]


BTW -- James “Butch” Williams is African American.
posted by ericb at 7:59 PM on April 5, 2006


tommy who lacks gnosis and taste
posted by TheLibrarian at 8:00 PM on April 5, 2006


Duke Sucks
(sorry, the Farker in me couldn't resist)
posted by qvantamon at 8:00 PM on April 5, 2006


what three drunken southern white frat boys did to a black exotic dancer has nothing new to tell us about class, race, race relations, educational institutions, or when no means no

I agree. It has something really OLD to tell us about all those things. That was what kind of took be aback.
posted by psmealey at 8:03 PM on April 5, 2006


TPS: What is the proper way for a college to with rape allegations?
How do you know Duke has not done that?
posted by mischief at 8:03 PM on April 5, 2006


Thanks for that research, TheLibrarian. When I saw the high level figures of 50/50 black/white population, I leapt to an assumption that Durham was an integrated city (at least partly). I hadn't stopped to consider the town/gown thing (shame on me, having gone to college in the worst possible example of that: Hyde Park, Chicago). That was clearly wrong.
posted by psmealey at 8:07 PM on April 5, 2006


It's also a pretty common thing for escorts to scream rape if they don't get the money they are expecting for their actions.

Like most people in this thread I'm reserving judgement, but let me just say that I've never met a stripper that wasn't solicitous.
posted by sourbrew at 8:08 PM on April 5, 2006


"According to official police logs obtained by The Herald-Sun, the first 911 call was received at 12:53. a.m. on March 14, and the first officer arrived at 610 N. Buchanan at 12:55 a.m. A second unit responded, and both departed by 1:06 a.m.

The second 911 call, from the Kroger store on Hillsborough Road, initially was dispatched as an intoxicated person but later was changed to a rape case allegedly involving those at the lacrosse party. The call was placed at 1:22 a.m., 27 minutes after the police arrived to investigate the first 911 call and 16 minutes after they left the scene. The Kroger store is 2.3 miles from 610 N. Buchanan.

The second caller later told police that she had found the victim walking on North Buchanan and then drove her to the store to get help.

Williams, who has a private investigator working on the case, noted that the Police Department is closer -- nine-tenths of a mile away -- than the Kroger store and wondered why the victim would have been driven to a grocery store farther away.

Michael, the police spokeswoman, was quoted in a published report saying the woman who drove to the Kroger store was the second exotic dancer hired by the lacrosse players. Earlier Michael told The Herald-Sun the driver was not the second dancer." [source]
posted by ericb at 8:10 PM on April 5, 2006


Perhaps the college did do the right thing, I don't know. It just seems sad that these events always break down into the community members immediately taking sides, like it's a war- signs in the yard, handing out "Wanted" fliers.....
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:10 PM on April 5, 2006 [1 favorite]


Letter to the Community from President Brodhead. Just released.
posted by mischief at 8:10 PM on April 5, 2006


Thanks for posting this psmeasley. It has definately been a big topic btw me and my friends. I have been anxiously following every story about it.
I actually go to NCCU library school (alleged victim attends NCCU as well). Even thought the campus is pretty nice and I have always felt safe, you can definately tell a difference between it and the other nearby public universities who enjoy wealthy alumni gifts and profitable sports programs versus a school that mainly subsists on financial aid.
Its a pretty sad town.
posted by TheLibrarian at 8:12 PM on April 5, 2006


Outraged? By sports players or rapists? Two Eastern Oregon football players charged with rape - Seven female cadets allege football player assaulted them - Rape victim files lawsuit against ASU - Five members of the Philadelphia Soul football team are being investigated in connection with the alleged rape of a 23-year-old woman in Kansas City - Man rapes 97 year old - Rape Charges For Grade School Teacher - EWU student arrested on rape charges ad nauseam

Want to do something about it? Be AWARE & contact Men Can Stop Rape or Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network
posted by ?! at 8:15 PM on April 5, 2006


Just like any other crime, 2% of rape accusations are falsely made. While this is not a very large ratio, it is sufficient for the college to need to treat this as an innocent until proven guilty scenario. I'm not sure that suspending the lacrosse season before indictments were even handed down is appropriate, unless there are other factors involved (maybe just throwing a party with exotic dancers is against some university code?)

What is a tragedy is the normal sentencing for rape crimes by white college students seems to be out of whack with the scope of the crime, unless multiple victims step forward, especially for a crime which is difficult to successfully prosecute. It seems like property crimes factor in the rarity of arrest/indictment/prosecution into the sentencing (see fairly harsh penalties for counterfeiting money, which is a difficult crime to discover) vs violent crimes against persons. Shouldn't we prosecute crimes that are difficult to prove more harshly to increase the deterrent value?
posted by BrotherCaine at 8:20 PM on April 5, 2006


Guilty until proven innocent.
posted by ColdChef at 8:24 PM on April 5, 2006


Sweet Jumping Jebus, I am really getting tired of this story. I live in the region, and this brouhaha has been getting too much airplay. No one is arguing the fact that the Duke lacrosse team is populated with douchebags who have consistently flouted university rules and general decorum. No one is arguing the fact that Duke's relationship with the surrounding community is tenuous at best. I personally hate Duke (Go Heels!), and would love nothing more than to see the lacrosse team knocked down a peg or two. What I simply cannot abide by however is the fact that the community is chomping at the bit to lynch these kids before all of the facts have been verified. Innocent until proven guilty? Not here. Those kids don't dare show their faces. I'm not saying they didn't do it, but let's wait to pass judgment until all of the evidence has been gathered and both sides have been given their chance to present their case.
posted by msali at 8:26 PM on April 5, 2006


Yes, liberals screaming for blood before due process. Whoda Thunkit?
posted by mischief at 8:31 PM on April 5, 2006


"Integrated Southern city?? Hardly. There is a pretty big divide in Durham between the school and the town, between black and white, between poor and affluent. Durham is 68th most dangerous city according to this poll. A sad, stark contrast to the seemingly polished college campus. "

Yes, Durham has the town/gown thing going on, but it's also a rather progressive city. It's not totally integrated, but it's also not totally segregated. And there's a large portion of the community that has nothing to do with Duke at all. I'd say the main divide is between the wealthy students and the rest of the largely working class population. Also, the New York Times article mentions nothing about the rather large and growing Hispanic community.
posted by mijuta at 8:47 PM on April 5, 2006


You must be reading a different thread than I am mischief. Or else, you are screaming into the night, in which case, I cannot really advise you.

For the most part, I have seen some cautious and thoughtful replies here, none of which seem to be calling for the summary hanging or crucifixion of the lacrosse team. But, the fact that you are relying on Dan Abrams to bring you the truth(iness), says a little bit about what there is to say about you.

The outrage that I alluded to in the FPP was mostly focused on the "she was a whore, and whores can't by definition be raped" crowd that reflexively jumped to accuse the victim. I thought those remarks were as outrageous as they were disgusting. I grant you that there are those that just as reflexively jumped to convict the entire lax team of this crime, before indictments were issues, and yes, they are just as wrong.

Mostly, I thought the implications of the case were gripping, not because they are new, as I mentioned above: because they are so old. We think that we have solved these issues of racism, social and sexual equality, but so clearly we have not.
posted by psmealey at 8:51 PM on April 5, 2006


Guilty until proven innocent.

I know, we would never discuss, say, alleged U.S. military atrocities here unless the crimes have absolutely been proved beyond a reasonable doubt, so why can't we give these young men the same benefit of the doubt?
posted by transona5 at 8:51 PM on April 5, 2006


It's also a pretty common thing for escorts to scream rape if they don't get the money they are expecting for their actions.

Show us your numbers, Sourbrew. Or were you speaking from personal experience?
posted by ottereroticist at 8:55 PM on April 5, 2006


It's funny --- and reflective of an apparently successful legal defense strategy --- how many MeFites are reserving judgment on this question. This is a case study in why money spent on good attorneys is not wasted.
posted by jayder at 8:56 PM on April 5, 2006


I was kind of thinking the same thing, transona5,
posted by jayder at 8:58 PM on April 5, 2006


I was almost thinking the same thing, transona5, but you know what? Unless they filmed every last detail of what went on that night, the situation is not exactly analogous.
posted by psmealey at 9:12 PM on April 5, 2006


Mostly, I thought the implications of the case were gripping, not because they are new, as I mentioned above: because they are so old. We think that we have solved these issues of racism, social and sexual equality, but so clearly we have not.

Not in our lifetimes, or our children's, or our children's children's. And even after that, who knows. All I know is that it'll take an awful lot of certain types of people simply dying off over time before what you've described can truly occur.

It's funny --- and reflective of an apparently successful legal defense strategy --- how many MeFites are reserving judgment on this question. This is a case study in why money spent on good attorneys is not wasted.

Let me get this straight -- a reporter and her witnesses being reluctant to report potentially damaging facts about the accuser's case because it conflicts with their personal sympathies is also the product of rich defense lawyers? Nice bogeyman you've got there.

You've already made up your mind anyway, and I'm glad that our criminal justice system's definition of guilt and innocence isn't based on your model. My own experience with college athletes makes me inclined to believe that these lacrosse players would do exactly what she's accused them of doing, but there's nothing like an overzealous lynch mob to actually make me sympathize with the athletes that I so dislike, at least when it comes to the due process issue.

I know, we would never discuss, say, alleged U.S. military atrocities here unless the crimes have absolutely been proved beyond a reasonable doubt

Are you saying that the Abu Ghraib photos weren't particularly incriminating and discussion-worthy, in and of themselves?
posted by DaShiv at 9:15 PM on April 5, 2006


jayder, I suspect they're probably guilty as sin, but I don't feel I have enough information yet to make a final judgement.

You seem to imply that the guilt is obvious and that any vacillation by others before all the evidence is presented is a sign of being manipulated by the defense.

If that's your implication, I disgree with it. Again, I suspect they're guilty, but I'm willing to wait for the jury's decision. They'll have the time to go over the evidence with a fine-toothed comb and, hopefully, render a fair verdict.

Call me a reactionary, but I think people are entitled to a trial before being declared guilty.

I think the coach's firing was likely premature... and I'm confused about why he's being punished in the first place, honestly.
posted by Malor at 9:19 PM on April 5, 2006


psmealey, I was referring to the liberal blogosphere. Goto Google Blogs and type enter 'duke rape'.

... and no, I am not basing anything on Abrams. From the first time I heard about this event on Plastic, I have viewed the news reporting with skepticism.

The only evidence reported so far directly linked to rape has been a stock statement from medical personnel that the examination showed "consistent" signs, doublespeak for 'maybe it's rape, maybe it's not'.
posted by mischief at 9:23 PM on April 5, 2006


My bad, mischief. Apologies for the snark.
posted by psmealey at 9:26 PM on April 5, 2006


ericb, you're making a bit too much of the probability that the first 911 call may have been faked by the victim and/or her friend as a way to call police attention to the episode without reporting a sexual assault. You're smart; you know there's plenty of reason someone might be hesitant to come forward with a rape accusation - especially an escort worker.

If the first 911 call about walking by and getting racist bullshit yelled at her was fake, what does that tell us about the validity of the sexual assault charge? Not very much, I'd say. Those of us who live in the area and have followed the story of drunken, aggressive Duke students in that neighborhood for years now haven't been surprised by this case at all. The fact that Duke actually bought the house where the party happened a few months ago in order to sell it to someone who'd be more careful about the kind of person they rented to is also somewhat revealing.
posted by mediareport at 9:27 PM on April 5, 2006


DaShiv -- thanks for the link to the 'Separating Truth, Consequences' from the St. Petersburg Times:
"As the story unfolded, the student journalists at [North Carolina] Central [University] were learning a powerful lesson: that reality is textured. They knew rape was rape; their sympathies stayed with the accuser. But they were coming to see that things are rarely as simple as they first appear."
posted by ericb at 9:28 PM on April 5, 2006


's ok, psm, believe it or not, I myself have been guilty of a bit of snark now and then. ;-P
posted by mischief at 9:32 PM on April 5, 2006


The fact that Duke actually bought the house where the party happened a few months ago in order to sell it to someone who'd be more careful about the kind of person they rented to is also somewhat revealing.

You obviously have more "first-person" information than me. I am not aware of the various nuances and am open to learning more. I, personally, have made no judgment regarding the situation one way or another. I have biases, but will wait for the findings of the official investigation before I come to any conclusion.
posted by ericb at 9:32 PM on April 5, 2006


Feb 2005 article about neighbors' complaints about Duke students on Buchanan Street; the house where the rape has been alleged is one of the "15 noisiest addresses" in the neighborhood. Just an FYI; I know it's not convictable evidence or anything, but thought it worth noting that there's been an ongoing problem with alcohol and juvenile behavior for years at that spot.
posted by mediareport at 9:37 PM on April 5, 2006


and am open to learning more.

As are we all. But from a few miles away, I can assure you there's a pretty bad stink coming from that house right now.
posted by mediareport at 9:39 PM on April 5, 2006


ottereroticist

I won't touch that with a 10 foot pole. Any such studies are uniformly done by either far left feminists, or far right men. However, if you can't imagine a stripper doing such things then i'm not sure what planet you are from. Had it been some random girl drunk at the party I wouldn't have much doubt. At any rate I said i was reserving judgement, glad to see you are too.

/snark
posted by sourbrew at 9:43 PM on April 5, 2006


ericb, this is a soap opera. No one yet has mentioned DA Nifong, an unpopular white appointee running in his first election next month, an election already tainted with scandal.
posted by mischief at 9:45 PM on April 5, 2006


However, if you can't imagine a stripper doing such things then i'm not sure what planet you are from.

If you can't imagine drunk College men doing such things...

/two sides to a coin
posted by iamck at 9:49 PM on April 5, 2006


What I want to know is: Who brought the KY jelly?
However, if you can't imagine a stripper doing such things then i'm not sure what planet you are from.
If you can't imagine drunk College men doing such things...
... and if you can't imagine both happening ...
posted by mischief at 9:52 PM on April 5, 2006


mischief, that "scandal" will barely register with Durham voters. What is registering is that Nifong's initial full-court press on the cable news shows smells related to the election next month; this local blog post does a good job on the background:

Those outside Durham would not know that there is a tight race in the Democratic Primary where the incumbent Ditrict Attorney, Mike Nifong is battling Freda Black and Keith Bishop. Both Nifong and Freda Black are white, while Keith Bishop is black. Thus, in the Democratic Primary, which is May 2nd, Nifong has every right to fear that the he and Freda Black will split the white vote while Keith Bishop got all the African-American voters.

I haven't been following that race closely, but will say the Bishop seems to be kind of a flake. There's definitely bad blood between Freda Black and Mike Nifong, though, and taking an overly aggressive public stand in this case is surely something Nifong's people know can only help win black votes. It's disgusting, yes, but again, not necessarily something that reflects on the validity of the charges. We'll have to wait to see the evidence.
posted by mediareport at 9:59 PM on April 5, 2006


Previously on MetaFilter.
posted by russilwvong at 10:05 PM on April 5, 2006


[Yeah, we got that, russil.]
posted by mediareport at 10:06 PM on April 5, 2006


You are correct, not necessarily, but right now, with so much in question, this election is just another piece of the puzzle.
posted by mischief at 10:06 PM on April 5, 2006


[Oops, missed the link. Thanks, mediareport.]
posted by russilwvong at 10:13 PM on April 5, 2006


If you can't imagine drunk College men doing such things...

Ahh yes, please ignore that I said I reserve judgement. Had I typified all jocks as wanton ass holes as I am want to do there would no doubt be dissenters there as well. Rape is a serious charge, if they did it I hope they pay for it.
posted by sourbrew at 10:28 PM on April 5, 2006


I can't get over how disgusting that email is--and they say it was sent after it happened?

I hope they're all sent to jail (but i know the word of one stripper/dancer/whatever against tons of wealthy-ish white boys is a losing setup, unfortunately). This whole story sucks...disgusting. (and what's worse is that it's really not uncommon at all)
posted by amberglow at 10:45 PM on April 5, 2006


Man, can you imagine what this thread would be like if modern media and Metafilter existed in a world where DNA-based forensics technology was unavailable? Woof.
posted by Ryvar at 10:52 PM on April 5, 2006


I hope they're all sent to jail

You were saying, mischief?
posted by Kwantsar at 11:05 PM on April 5, 2006


they say [the e-mail] was sent after it happened?

Yes, but it "demonstrates that its writer is completely unaware that any act or event remotely similar to what has been alleged ever occurred" (according to the lawyer of the guy who sent it).

The published excerpts don't demonstrate that, but maybe the parts not released because they were inappropriate could?
posted by booksandlibretti at 11:13 PM on April 5, 2006


"i plan on killing the bitches as soon as the[y] walk in and proceeding to cut their skin off while cumming in my duke issue spandex."

Sorry, had to see that again. That's some seriously fucked up shit to email your team buddies, is what that is.
posted by mediareport at 11:14 PM on April 5, 2006


while the letter is clearly tasteless i have heard people say much worse things when talking about stuff they would never do. My roommate is "theoretically" always looking to buy dead babies for some omelettes.
posted by sourbrew at 11:21 PM on April 5, 2006


That's some seriously fucked up shit to email your team buddies, is what that is.

Indeed. His grammar is terrible.
posted by Stauf at 11:26 PM on April 5, 2006


mr: Have you never heard the exclamation, "If I catch you, I'm going to skin you alive!"?
posted by mischief at 11:28 PM on April 5, 2006


Sure, mischief. I hear it all the time, in my head, while cumming in my spandex.
posted by mediareport at 11:31 PM on April 5, 2006


heheh, touche
posted by mischief at 11:32 PM on April 5, 2006


Without calling anyone out, consider the possibility that interpretations of this story might not divide along left/right lines. You can see the rhetoric working already, the Fox News version vs. the MSNBC version etc. Everyone trying to make the facts fit their ideology, left and right (though I haven't seen it on the farther left, and don't really see a blogosphere calling for jock blood either, pace comments above). What's happening is that people are betting on an outcome. It reminds me of the Susan Smith story, the Andrea Yates story, and of course Tawana Brawley. It's got all the pieces -- sex (both consensual and not, and most especially interracial), youth, sports, alcohol, class conflict, and of course gender and race conflicts so rich and old you could serve them with a fine cheese.

It's only a bet however, unless you know something the rest of us don't. Any rational person can see the probabilistic character of the events. Someone will end up looking foolish and someone will shout I told you so. Either the lady was carjacked by a bushy headed black dude or she -- horrors! -- pushed her darlings off to sea in a Dodge minivan. Either Andrea is an evil monster or she's a complete zombie mama.

If a stripper was forced to have sex she didn't want (or intend, or contract) to have, that's rape. If she's a black stripper, from the wrong side of the Durham class line, and her clients/alleged-rapists are that particular breed of cocky, abusive, misongynistic asshole that is the southern, upper middle class, white, athletic, entitled frat boy -- and they do exist, and deserve some of the stereotype -- well then boys and ladies we have us a new fishbowl. Time to trot out the assigned idiocies. Never mind that what really sells this story isn't an interest in justice, on the small or grand scale, but an interest in its pornographic excess. All of this argument has more in common with Clinton/Lewinsky than it does with the social justice issues invoked on either side (These boys will stand for all of the white southern men who have ever raped a black woman! vs. No, it's you intolerant liberals who would leap to judgment and deny these men the very rights you champion when they're your rights, so you're hypocrites! A culture of silence! She was asking for it, whores can't be raped! Blah. Blah. Blah.)

More theater. The facts will emerge, at which point we can have an informed interpretation of the episode. If only people would ignore the media's relentless stoking of the fires of ideology with breathless positioning and gaming, all under the pretense of seeking "the facts."

And oh yeah, 9 US soldiers died in Iraq yesterday. Thanks for that, Bukharin.

(I'm not saying it isn't worth discussing, just that we could make a conscious effort not to let this devolve into a left/right clusterf**k thread for no good reason. Presumably, you are appalled by rape whatever your party politics. Presumably you can see that there is not definitive proof of any specific crime or its agent on the public record, yet. This is not an isolated incident, whatever "it" is, but it is being used to invoke an epidemic of sexual violence for which this particular incident can stand only very obliquely. Its particulars suggest factors both mitigating and aggravating, for both perpetrator(s) and victim. What we have here, gentle(wy)myn, is a failure to recognize a litmus test.)

Oh, is Nataleeeeeee still missing in Aruba?
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:10 AM on April 6, 2006


You go to an agency-where rule one is: ALWAYS GET THE FEE. Send whoever you have, whoever you can get, get a body to the door to get the cash. Sell them Marilyn Monroe, send them Marilyn Manson, just get the money.

You gotta lie, cheat, steal, strongarm the guy, you don't walk out the door without the agencies money. Or you;re done. As for your money-that's on you...screw the guy, rob the guy, con the guy, beat the hell out of the guy. Whatever it takes.

You're not too keen on screwing strangers, seems like the best thing to do is to trick the guy into paying you for nothing, get him in the shower and steal his wallet and run, get him naked and have the goon outside beat the door in and run. Promise the world, get the guy to get himself off and be happy with it. First time it works, you decide it's the way to go-do as little as possible for as much money as possible.

Need justification for doing this to people? Well look at these guys, gotta pay some girl to come do them, what kind of lowlifes are these guys anyway? I don't care about these slugs. Disgusting losers, I hate these guys, but I need their money to survive....so if they get robbed or beat or scammed, they get what they deserve for being such pervs in the first place.
"Do as little as possible for as much money as possible" : this is a point of pride among sex workers.

] btw, FS = full service [
posted by mischief at 12:15 AM on April 6, 2006


"southern, upper middle class, white, athletic, entitled frat boy"

Duke may be in NC, but most of the lacrosse team is from Yankeeland.
posted by mischief at 12:18 AM on April 6, 2006


I stand corrected on that then mischief. The fact is interesting. Shall I say, frat boys at elite southern universities? Not uniquely, but in a specific form (I attended a large southern university, so my opinion is perhaps jaded).

But this tale has to be set in the south, whether the actors are native or not. The race, sex, gender, and class elements only work in a particular Durham of the imagination.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:26 AM on April 6, 2006


These boys will stand for all of the white southern men who have ever raped a black woman! vs. No, it's you intolerant liberals who would leap to judgment and deny these men the very rights you champion when they're your rights, so you're hypocrites!

Waitaminute, support for due process is a Fox News, right-wing idea now?!

*runs scalding hot water in bath tub, scrubs and scrubs until it bleeds*
posted by DaShiv at 1:00 AM on April 6, 2006


Update with a few interesting new tidbits:
Raleigh lawyer Joe Cheshire, who represents one of the team captains, said the "inappropriate anger" displayed in the message supports the players' account. "These boys were frustrated because they ... thought these women had come and taken a bunch of money and started dancing and just decided to leave," Cheshire said.
Yup, the ol' escort cash-and-dash routine.
According to The Chronicle, a Duke University student newspaper, McFadyen attended a "Take Back the Night" march against sexual violence and spoke to a reporter last week. "I completely support this event and this entire week," he told the newspaper. "It's just sad that the allegations we are accused of happened to fall when they did."
Hmm, that took balls.
Stephens also unsealed his orders requiring all but one member of the team to submit to DNA testing. Those orders required the members to allow investigators to take a saliva swab and to photograph their faces and upper torsos.
You can bet that anyone implicated by these DNA samples will challenge the constitutionality of the warrant as being too broad and inclusive.
posted by mischief at 1:13 AM on April 6, 2006


I was going to respond to sourbrew's assertion that strippers cry rape all the time and mischief yammering on about how strippers scam people out of their money, but then I read the little warning about personal attacks under the comment box again. Suffice it to say that I don't think that certain people in this thread are applying that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing to the victim.

I am curious, though, as to whether all the people here who are holding to that standard and saying that they'll reserve judgment said that about, say, Enron. Or OJ Simpson. Or alleged US military atrocities, as transona5 said. Yes, in a court of law, innocent until proven guilty should be the rule, absolutely. That said, that doesn't have to apply to personal opinions. Maybe it should, but this case looks about as clear cut to me as Enron and OJ did. Which is to say, no, I can't be absolutely positively 100% sure they're guilty, but...
posted by a louis wain cat at 1:15 AM on April 6, 2006


Well, if they are guilty, I hope they get the same kind of horrific punishment these guys do.
posted by Eekacat at 2:08 AM on April 6, 2006


The police affidavit says the woman was examined by a forensic sexual assault nurse and a physician shortly after the attack took place. "Medical records and interviews that were obtained by a subpoena revealed the victim had signs, symptoms and injuries consistent with being raped and sexually assaulted vaginally and anally," the affidavit said.


That's stronger language than just "maybe she was and maybe she wasn't."


And is it just me, or does anyone else find it astonishing to argue that the player sending an email about attacking strippers right after the alleged incident is proof of an innocent mind?
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:05 AM on April 6, 2006


Waitaminute, support for due process is a Fox News, right-wing idea now?!

Support for "due process" and "innocent until proven guilty" are typically invoked by all sides when one of their own is accused. In this case, it is interesting to see the caution with which anyone would defend the accused players (we don't even know which ones, I don't think). Some on the right are itching to use this as yet another occasion to attack a) feminism, b) political correctness (because their shit don't stink), and c) black women. (You think I'm kidding? Who was the radio blatherking who just called Cynthia McKinney "ghetto trash?") But reasonably, most commentators, including most on the right, are not committing themselves too vigorously, because this case could unfold in unpredictable ways.

And while some on the "left" are turning this whole episode into proof that white boys rape black girls whenever they can, I don't really see much of a lynch mob in the greater "liberal" universe.

Your question raises my point exactly. I would hope all of us, left, right, and indifferent, would support due process rights for the accused, and for the accuser. And pray the cops are both competent and honest, or at least inclined to feign honesty with so many eyes upon them.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:19 AM on April 6, 2006


Sweet Jumping Jebus, I am really getting tired of this story. I live in the region, and this brouhaha has been getting too much airplay. No one is arguing the fact that the Duke lacrosse team is populated with douchebags who have consistently flouted university rules and general decorum. No one is arguing the fact that Duke's relationship with the surrounding community is tenuous at best. I personally hate Duke (Go Heels!), and would love nothing more than to see the lacrosse team knocked down a peg or two. What I simply cannot abide by however is the fact that the community is chomping at the bit to lynch these kids before all of the facts have been verified. Innocent until proven guilty? Not here. Those kids don't dare show their faces. I'm not saying they didn't do it, but let's wait to pass judgment until all of the evidence has been gathered and both sides have been given their chance to present their case.
posted by msali at 8:26 PM PST on April 5 [!]


Thank-you for that.

I'm a Duke alum, and would be the first to admit it has it's share of A-holes like any other school. But by and large the campus is filled with persons of superlative intellect and progressive stances on most issues. There are tangible reasons why the 'town-gown' divide exists (which is a fucking idiotic construct to begin with). Freshman have to live on campus. There aren't a hell of a lot of parking spaces later on, either. Most people I know never even had a car until possibly Junior year. The campus(es) are incredibly well thought out and from a social standpoint there was never a reason to go elsewhere. I grew up in an extremely diverse DC suburb, and was certainly never averse to travelling into the city, which even then was pretty progressive and welcoming.

That email is disgusting. Only a fucking idiot would assume it wasn't hyperbolic bullshit produced by someone drunk, pissed off, stupid, or all of the above. I can't wait to see the rest of this come out, but in the mean time it's nice to see the press behave with their usual caution and restraint. If there was a sexual assault the parties responsible will likely not be able to avoid severe penalties, even with a top legal team from Daddy.
posted by docpops at 7:26 AM on April 6, 2006


I would hope all of us, left, right, and indifferent, would support due process rights for the accused, and for the accuser. And pray the cops are both competent and honest, or at least inclined to feign honesty with so many eyes upon them.

The problem is that we've heard way too many stories for way too many years about gangs of guys assaulting women, and especially guys who are on a school team together, whether HS or college. There's way too much documented past proof of things like this happening, whether it's a dancer or some disabled girl from the neighborhood or whatever. There's also the privileged position many team sport athletes enjoy in college, and many stories about sexual enticements and women used in recruiting, and the very blind eyes from college administration and on-campus rent-a-cops when things go wrong.
posted by amberglow at 7:35 AM on April 6, 2006


Also, why did the coach resign? that's very suspicious.
posted by amberglow at 7:37 AM on April 6, 2006


Also, why did the coach resign? that's very suspicious.
posted by amberglow at 7:37 AM PST on April 6 [!]


Why is that suspicious? It's only recently that we started giving out medals to assholes that completely fuck-up everything they put their hands on. Resigning is the appropriate measure when the people under you make atrocious decisions, whether you are directly responsibe or not.
posted by docpops at 7:46 AM on April 6, 2006


I think the coach's firing was likely premature... and I'm confused about why he's being punished in the first place, honestly.
posted by Malor at 12:19 AM EST on April 6

Apparently he played his cards a little too close to his chest. Today's N&O claims the other faculty members at Duke were unaware of the previous criminal charges against the players. THe head of the athletics committee said "Unless we have someone tell us, we wouldn't know."

Also a history professor who previously coached the woman's lacrosse team said he complained two years ago about the program. For example, when Pressler ordered practice during a time that conflicted with classes.

I get the impression that he wasn't a team player, so to speak.

Also one of the troubling details about the alleged rape was that the police recovered the hired escort's purse, cell phone, and money back at the frat house. A professional, who left her money behind? Something must have been wrong.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:49 AM on April 6, 2006


Everyone trying to make the facts fit their ideology...southern, upper middle class, white, athletic, entitled frat boy

"Everyone" includes you, too, apparently.

But this tale has to be set in the south...

Just wanted to call bullshit on that part.

docpops: That email is disgusting. Only a fucking idiot would assume it wasn't hyperbolic bullshit produced by someone drunk, pissed off, stupid, or all of the above.

You left out sexually excited.
posted by mediareport at 8:41 AM on April 6, 2006


So here is a hypothetical question for you: Could someone be sexually excited if they had participated in a gang rape an hour or two before? My purely speculative I-am-not-an-expert-or-of-the-male-persuasion answer would be, yes, most definitely. Interesting that the boy's lawyer would claim it as proof of his innocence.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:47 AM on April 6, 2006


Could someone explain why the DNA test seems to be 'too wide to be constitutional'? It seems fairly narrow to me: the accusation is that 3 of the 40 boys raped someone, so they're figuring out if any of them did.

What are constitutional limits on ordering a DNA test?
posted by jacalata at 9:03 AM on April 6, 2006


I don't deny having an ideological position here, mediareport. I should have made clear that (other than my we all know they exist comment) a lot of the language you're citing was meant to represent a position, not to claim it. You'll note I stereotyped southerners, frat boys, feminists, the media, and whores. Polemic.

That said, "have to be set in the south" is also hyperbole. Obviously acts of racial and sexual violence or, conversely, false accusations thereof occur in the north (Tawana Brawley, anyone?). The point is that the way this story is developing as a story is going down predictable TobaccoRow/GoneWiththeWind paths already, being spun as a tale of the (new/old) South. It's the hook, resplendent in its overt eroticisim, seducing us all away from the much greater crimes being committed daily in (many of) our names.

The only weird element is lacrosse.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:11 AM on April 6, 2006


From one of the articles...

""I have this sense of disaster," Bennett said. "I won't lie. If it does turn out that this is false. . . ." Tears hung in her dark eyes. The fan whirred overhead, and cars rushed past outside.

"I don't even want to think about that.""


And that kind of sums it up. The 'reporter' in question is so determined to try and seek "justice" that the facts of the issue don't really matter as much to her.

She would rather live in a world that fits her prejudices (that women never lie about rape and that maybe not all frat boys are assholes) that she woudl actually rather that this women have been gang raped than that she hadn't.
posted by soulhuntre at 10:12 AM on April 6, 2006


mischief quotes, re sex workers: rule one is: ALWAYS GET THE FEE..... just get the money.....you don't walk out the door without the agencies money. Or you;re done. etc.....

Fine, so then why on Earth would the accuser leave her wallet/money at the frat house? Clearly, she wouldn't do that, right? Something seems very wrong with that scenerio.
posted by applemeat at 10:16 AM on April 6, 2006


That's stronger language than just "maybe she was and maybe she wasn't.

Really? Does it say with certainty that she was raped? Or, does it leave some wiggle room?

applying that whole "innocent until proven guilty" thing to the victim.

Where have I said that the escort was guilty of anything beyond what she already has admitted to a reporter?

What I am trying to do is piece together the actions that occurred that night from news sources that are inaccurate and incomplete. If they continue to use the 'exotic dancer' euphemism over the more correct 'escort', one must wonder what else is being distorted.

police recovered the hired escort's purse, cell phone, and money back at the frat house. A professional, who left her money behind?

This was her first stripping gig. Her only previous experience, as reported in the news, was one-on-one dates. Presumably this was her first time dealing with a group of men, and when she tried to pull the cash-and-dash scam, she lost control of the situation.

the DNA test seems to be 'too wide to be constitutional'?

They issued the warrant to for 46 men when they had only 3 unknown suspects. Analysis here.
posted by mischief at 10:17 AM on April 6, 2006


What’s the story with the broom handles? It’s not a violation unless broom handles are involved? Is this a class thing I’m not aware of? Am I too neuveau riche? Should I move to East Egg so I can understand sexually assaulting people with broom handles?
posted by Smedleyman at 10:23 AM on April 6, 2006


"why on Earth would the accuser leave her wallet/money at the frat house?"

She was a rookie at the stripper gig and she lost control of the situation. Doing one-on-one dates is a different experience, especially if she was accustomed to having a big lunk of a driver standing outside.

An escort agency would normally have sent white girls to a white party, the caller would have had to specify black girls. Normally, escort agencies would have sent a bodyguard to such a gig. Why not this one?
posted by mischief at 10:24 AM on April 6, 2006


Secret Life of Gravy: A professional, who left her money behind?

mischief: This was her first stripping gig. Her only previous experience, as reported in the news, was one-on-one dates.

Mischief, this sounds a bit contradictory. Was she a green newbie, or a calculating pro? And if you now flip-flop to the former, here's another question: Don't you think there's usually some kind of life-situational "ramp up" before a woman becomes an escort? I mean, contrary to porn movie plot 101, women don't normally go from naive candy striper to 3-way action in one afternoon.
posted by applemeat at 10:37 AM on April 6, 2006


Any such studies are uniformly done by either far left feminists, or far right men.

Generally speaking, it's a bad idea to generalize. Anyway, everyone, everyone, everyone who conducts a study has an agenda, even if they aren't on the "far right" or "far left." It's a specious criticism.

The problem is that we've heard way too many stories for way too many years about gangs of guys assaulting women, and especially guys who are on a school team together, whether HS or college. There's way too much documented past proof of things like this happening, whether it's a dancer or some disabled girl from the neighborhood or whatever. There's also the privileged position many team sport athletes enjoy in college, and many stories about sexual enticements and women used in recruiting, and the very blind eyes from college administration and on-campus rent-a-cops when things go wrong.

Amberglow, I presume you're referring to the Glen Ridge, NJ, case discussed in the book Our Guys, which was so heartbreakingly depressing I couldn't even finish it.

IMHO all organized team sports are a form of ritualized mob violence. (Generally speaking.) I'd like to see them disappear forever: academia for academics, not for boors.
posted by scratch at 10:43 AM on April 6, 2006


What I am trying to do is piece together the actions that occurred that night from news sources that are inaccurate and incomplete. If they continue to use the 'exotic dancer' euphemism over the more correct 'escort', one must wonder what else is being distorted...

That's not all that's being distorted here.

This was her first stripping gig. Her only previous experience, as reported in the news, was one-on-one dates. Presumably this was her first time dealing with a group of men, and when she tried to pull the cash-and-dash scam, she lost control of the situation.

How can you possibly presume that?

mischief, I appreciate those that are being very careful not to rush to judgment based on their personal prejudices, but in your zeal to do this, you certainly seem to be going all out to build a case for the defense.

You've made over 10 comments here that either imply that she was a whore (she's not an exotic dancer, she's a whore! She had ky jelly! whore!) who was trying to scam the good boys at the lax house (poorly, as as she forgot to collect).

If you're really interested in sifting through all of the evidence, rather than discounting a lot of it, to arrive at a well considered conclusion, you certainly don't seem so.
posted by psmealey at 11:26 AM on April 6, 2006


The accuser had worked for an escort company for two months, doing one-on-one dates about three times a week.

"It wasn't the greatest job," she said, her voice trailing off. But with two children, and a full class load at N.C. Central University, it paid well and fit her schedule.

This was the first time she had been hired to dance provocatively for a group, she said.
Also:
On Monday, March 13, 2006 about 11:00pm, the Duke University Lacrosse Team solicited a local escort service for entertainment. The victim was paid to dance at the residence located at 610 Buchanan. The Duke Lacrosse Team was hosting a party at the residence. The victim was sodomized, raped, assaulted and robbed. This horrific crime sent shock waves throughout our community.

Durham CrimeStoppers needs your assistance in solving this case. Although, we have received many calls expressing concerns and anger about this incident, we have not received any calls which will allow us to assist in resolving this case.

We are asking anyone who has any information which will allow the Durham Police Department to make an arrest in this case, please contact Durham CrimeStoppers at 683-1200.
And:
WRAL learned Thursday that she works for Allure Escort Service
Applemeat, read the first quote here. If Allure was her first job as a sex worker, she wasn't particularly green by March 13 but neither was she fully experienced. As for her personal history before Allure, nothing has been written; the closest is the St. Petersburg article.

psmealey, what evidence have I discounted? What I have discounted is how evidence has been reported by the media. We don't yet have evidence that she had sex with the lacrosse team, let alone whether it was consensual or rape. The statement by medical personnel is the usual non-committal soundbite issued in any rape case.

Personally, my hunch says someone at that party raped her. What I seek is a motive deeper than the 'racist misogynist' label which doesn't really explain anything.
posted by mischief at 12:05 PM on April 6, 2006


(wonders: Is there any motive behind rape that isn't misogynistic?)
posted by applemeat at 1:05 PM on April 6, 2006


applemeat: Only if you think everything has a pat, simple explanation. Not even 'misogynistic sociopath' explains what triggered this attack. How does society change for the better if it lives in denial concerning the root causes?
posted by mischief at 1:31 PM on April 6, 2006


Why doesn't "misogynistic sociopath" explain it? Why is that necessarily a pat, simple explanation? A lot of complex social and personal factors go into the making of a misogynistic sociopath.

And how does your theory- as far as I can tell, that they raped her because she tried to rip them off- explain the root causes better? And anyway, if it were true, why does it even matter? What kind of person thinks that gang rape is an appropriate response to being ripped off? Contemplating that question just brings us back to misogynistic sociopathy once again.
posted by a louis wain cat at 1:58 PM on April 6, 2006


The guys are obviously creeps, as most college males are. That said, here's another vote for waiting to see what the police can come up with.

As for the coach, he had to resign. I've dealt with high school and college coaches before--they drone on and on about how coaching is really teaching, how it's not about winning or losing, but about building character. Heh. That's quite a cast of characters playing LAX in Durham, coach.
posted by bardic at 2:02 PM on April 6, 2006


(wonders: Is there any motive behind rape that isn't misogynistic?)

Sure. Men rape men fairly regularly, and I hardly think misognyism plays a large part in that.
posted by tkolar at 2:31 PM on April 6, 2006


bardic: The guys are obviously creeps, as most college males are.

Most college males are creeps? That's a hell of a blanket statement. It's also, from what I've seen, completely and utterly inaccurate. Where on Earth did you pick up such an idea?
posted by Mitrovarr at 2:53 PM on April 6, 2006


The problem is that we've heard way too many stories for way too many years about gangs of guys assaulting women, and especially guys who are on a school team together, whether HS or college.

It's called homosociality and it happens in school sports, fraternity environments, and the military as well.

To be fair, the notion that the most stereotypically "prized attributes" of a gender are magnified for the worst in a large same-sex group isn't limited to men -- women in homosocial groups can be pretty awful too.

But considering that the prized attributes in women manifest in implicit competitions such as being the best-dressed, the most feminine, the best mommy, the prettiest, the best homemaker, etc. (as opposed to having the most sexual prowess, the most strength, the most intimidation among beta males, and so on), we just don't see it making headlines.
posted by pineapple at 3:17 PM on April 6, 2006


IMHO all organized team sports are a form of ritualized mob violence. (Generally speaking.) I'd like to see them disappear forever: academia for academics, not for boors.

I have always agreed with this, although I hadn't thought about it in a while. I spent quite a bit of time today reading about similar cases to this one (Glen Ridge and others). I have to say that from the experiences in my HS and college days that even if this kind of abuse is not overt and accepted, it's often there, right below the surface.

I can't imagine it actually happening, but if it were up to me, school-organized team sports world be entirely removed from HS and college curriculums. I think it would greatly improve education on many levels (and just imagine the money for actual education that would suddenly become available).
posted by milovoo at 3:50 PM on April 6, 2006


My impression of the email is that something bad happened, the team was accused of doing something wrong at the party, but at least one thought it was a lie. So he wrote an exaggerated version of the real charge which was perhaps "you raped me, you racist Duke Lacross players". I believe based on the email that this person, at least, believed this allegation was spurious.

I am not making any judgement whatsoever on the case (other then rape and racism are bad things and do exist in great numbers) until all the facts are out, that's just my take on the email.
posted by cell divide at 4:08 PM on April 6, 2006


scratch: IMHO all organized team sports are a form of ritualized mob violence. (Generally speaking.) I'd like to see them disappear forever: academia for academics, not for boors.

I could see how you'd think that about wrestling, rugby, lacross, football, and a few other sports, but I really don't know how you'd get impression that from baseball, track, swimming, rowing, volleyball, and other non-contact sports. And as for academia being for academics, well, there's nothing to say that academics can't be good atheletes, and that atheletes can't be good at academics. The idea of having sports in schools is to be well rounded people.

I agree that it's gotten way out of hand at the college level, which are basically a smaller version of professional sports, but at the high school level and lower, I think it can be very beneficial. Being a swimmer for 4 years taught me a lot about willpower, camraderie, and teamwork, and I feel that I am a much better person for it. It was also a lot of fun. I think most of the people who hate organized sports either didn't try them or had a bad experience, which is not the norm.
posted by Mitrovarr at 4:15 PM on April 6, 2006


mischief: I'm not looking for any "pat, simple explanation[s]". It's just that most of us don't see any remote "rationale" for a violent gang-rape. It's surely a base and primitive act, no? So why not a base and primitive motivation?

Tkolar: Sure. Men rape men fairly regularly, and I hardly think misognyism plays a large part in that.

Yes, unfortunately true--Good catch.
posted by applemeat at 4:18 PM on April 6, 2006



Kobe

That dirty Lister (Craig Charles) from the BBC comedy Red Dwarf was stabbed in jail while waiting to be exonerated for rape.


To listen to some of the people in this thread, those dirty fratboys The Scottsboro Boys should have been executed.
posted by Megafly at 4:40 PM on April 6, 2006


"So why not a base and primitive motivation?"

Okay, try this on. Rape is about power.

There, rape has disappeared forever.

Oh, wait! Power is a potent sexual stimulus. OK, circular definition, so discard that.

Misogynistic sociopathy? Sociopathy is widely considered in the psychology profession to be absolute, no gray area. OK, plea deal for insanity. Now we can say rape has disappeared forever.

Oh? Maybe he's not a sociopath then? Fine, just convict him. Incarceration is a strong deterrent. Finally, rape has disappeared forever.

Oh, wait! We cannot tolerate such harsh conditions in our prisons. Make conditions more tolerable. Dilute the deterrence factor.

Oh well...

If the motivation to rape is so base and primitive, why does it still occur?
posted by mischief at 5:07 PM on April 6, 2006


Um...because there are still people among us who are base and primitive?
posted by applemeat at 6:47 PM on April 6, 2006


Okay, try this on. Rape is about power.

Okay, try this on--what are the power dynamics of a group of boys who hire 2 strippers? Who holds the power there? Is it the ones hired to perform or the ones doing the hiring And what does the hiring of women to perform for them mean, powerwise? What is expected when you pay women to perform, powerwise?
posted by amberglow at 7:34 PM on April 6, 2006


According to a 2002 police report, the woman, currently a 27-year-old student at North Carolina Central University, gave a taxi driver a lap dance at a Durham strip club. Subsequently, according to the report, she stole the man's car and led deputies on a high-speed chase that ended in Wake County. Apparently, the deputy thought the chase was over when the woman turned down a dead-end road near Brier Creek, but instead she tried to run over him, according to the police report.
She is not as inexperienced at the sex worker game as the first news article reported. So, delete that particular avenue of speculation.

ag: I was being facetious.
posted by mischief at 9:55 PM on April 6, 2006


mischief, what's the source for that last report?
posted by psmealey at 3:42 AM on April 7, 2006


mischief, what's the source for that last report?

Here -- Alleged Rape Victim Had Past Brush With Law.
posted by ericb at 8:48 AM on April 7, 2006


Duke Lacrosse Scandal: Now You Can Bet on It.
posted by ericb at 8:50 AM on April 7, 2006


Betting on how many DNA matches investigators will make...uh...yeah.

Yet if I put a bullet through the back of their heads, it’s me that people would have a problem with.
Hnh. Humans. Glad I’m not one of ‘em.
posted by Smedleyman at 11:59 AM on April 7, 2006


I know, we would never discuss, say, alleged U.S. military atrocities here unless the crimes have absolutely been proved beyond a reasonable doubt, so why can't we give these young men the same benefit of the doubt?

Assuming you are being sarcastic about alleged military atrocities. I'll tell you what the difference is. The alleged military atrocities appear to be happening in such a way as to skirt any opportunity to hold any persons accountable for their actions. On the other hand the young Duke men in question will have a chance to defend themselves in the trusted venue of a jury trial.

In the first case I think it's entirely appropriate to have an opinion, even a predjucial one given the obvious lack of any sort of enforceable accountability. In the latter case, we have a mechanism for accountability and should withhold our opinions until it has had time to gather evidence and place that evidence in it's proper context. We may disagree with the final result, but should at least wait until we have the full picture.
posted by BrotherCaine at 6:57 PM on April 7, 2006


Images to Show Dancer Was Hurt When She Arrived at Lacrosse Party
"Time-stamped photographs will show an exotic dancer was already injured and 'very impaired' when she arrived at a party where she claims she was raped by members of Duke University’s men’s lacrosse team, an attorney for one of the players said Sunday.

Durham attorney Bill Thomas said some of the photographs, taken when she arrived at the house, indicate the woman was injured before getting to the party March 13. They show extensive bruises and scrapes on her legs, especially around the knees, he said....

Thomas said the photos contradict the alleged victim’s assertion she was scared, as they show her standing at the door of the off-campus house with 'a major grin on her face' as she tried to get back inside.

'People inside the house have stated she was banging on the door, attempting to regain entry,' Thomas said."

[The Associated Press | April 09, 2006]
posted by ericb at 8:47 PM on April 9, 2006


DNA tests show no match, attorneys say
"DNA testing failed to connect any members of the Duke University lacrosse team to the alleged rape of a stripper, attorneys for the athletes said Monday.

Citing DNA test results delivered by the state crime lab to police and prosecutors a few hours earlier, the attorneys said the test results prove their clients did not sexually assault and beat a stripper hired to perform at a March 13 team party.

[Associated Press | April 10,2006]
posted by ericb at 4:39 PM on April 10, 2006


...District Attorney Mike Nifong stopped speaking with reporters last week after initially talking openly about the case, including stating publicly that he was confident a crime occurred. He went on to say he would have other evidence to make his case should the DNA analysis prove inconclusive or fail to match a member of the team. ...
posted by amberglow at 4:44 PM on April 10, 2006


He went on to say he would have other evidence to make his case...

Yes, but when will he release his evidence to Metafilter, so we can give it the reserved and careful consideration that we're famous for?
posted by tkolar at 5:08 PM on April 10, 2006


"...a second dancer's statements cast further doubts on the woman's claims, defense lawyers say. That dancer said the woman never talked about being raped as they drove from the party house near Duke's East Campus to a nearby grocery store, where police were called, defense lawyers said Monday.

...'No DNA material from any young man tested was present on the body of this complaining witness,' Smith said. 'The DNA was not present within her body, not present on the surface of her body, and not on any of her belongings or articles of clothing.'

[Knight Ridder Newspapers | April 10, 2006]

"...none of those samples matched DNA collected by authorities from the accuser's body and personal effects. Testing also revealed that none of the accuser's DNA was in the bathroom where she told police she was choked, beaten, sodomized and raped by three men at the March 13 party.

[Associated Press | April 10, 2006]

Personally, I remain on the fence. Do we have a Tawana Brawley here or a 'hard-to-prove/prosecute' sexual offense?
posted by ericb at 9:08 PM on April 10, 2006


a very good Gilliard piece on how the DA knew that it would be a tough case from the start and does not need DNA evidence (And it also talks about the CSI effect, where people think you only need some lab thing to prove things)--... Keep in mind, the DA would have liked DNA evidence, which would have been serious leverage, but he had to have a much stronger case than that. Because this woman's life will be fodder for the defense. They will find her baby's daddy, former clients, neighbors.
...The parents are desperate beyond words for this to end. Their kids futures are on the line. ...
The parents desperation here, to save their smart, well-groomed children, will make this case very, no extremely ugly. The DA knows the united front is going to end and people will turn on each other to save their own asses and has a very good idea, which he isn't sharing, of who he's looking at.
The one thing I believe is that if the DA didn't have a case, he would not play games, the racial issues are too serious. ...

posted by amberglow at 6:48 AM on April 11, 2006


I was hoping this was going to get posted to the front page again so that I could gloat there, but no there would be no justification in posting a rebuttal of something like this on mefi. Where there is no drama there is no "best of the web," at any rate BOOYAH HATERS. It's an election year, DA doesn't have shit. I'm wagering he will drop this as well if public support swings away from the case.
posted by sourbrew at 10:20 AM on April 11, 2006


New York Times: Duke Inquiry to Continue, and So Will a Campaign.

ABC News: Two Campuses, Two Takes on Duke Rape Case.

Sports Illustrated: Dark Side of Sports -- Duke Case Spotlights Ills Between Athletes and Women.
posted by ericb at 8:07 PM on April 11, 2006


USA Today: Internet buzz shows people taking sides in Duke case.
posted by ericb at 2:45 PM on April 12, 2006


ericb wrote...
USA Today: Internet buzz shows people taking sides in Duke case.

From the article: "80% of about 250,000 bloggers and chat roomers say the case is about race and many call the alleged assault a hate crime"

I think this should set a new standard for Metafilter posts. If you haven't sat down and read 250,000 blog and chat messages on a topic, you shouldn't be allowed to comment on it.

Of course, this news only broke on March 29th, which means that these people have been reading one post every 5 seconds for the last 14 days. That sort of dedication should be rewarded.
posted by tkolar at 6:40 PM on April 12, 2006


If you haven't sat down and read 250,000 blog and chat messages on a topic, you shouldn't be allowed to comment on it.


According to the USA Today article the analysis is not based on anyone actually reading blogs/chat room transcripts, but rather --

"Hessert's company uses an Internet filter called e-Monitor [from Sports Media Challenge], a search engine that trolls the Web for mentions of particular issues. The Charlotte-based company advises colleges and other sports entities and on reputation management, among other things. Among its clients are Notre Dame, Texas and Florida; it does not represent Duke."

From the Sports Media Challenge website: "Duke University Lacrosse Program Challenged by Massive Fan Buzz."
posted by ericb at 7:06 PM on April 12, 2006


Cop says alleged victim ‘passed out drunk’
"A woman who claims she was raped by members of Duke University’s lacrosse team was described as 'just passed-out drunk' by one of the first police officers to see her, according to a recording of radio traffic obtained Thursday by The Associated Press.

The conversation between the officer and a police dispatcher took place about 1:30 a.m. March 14, about five minutes after a grocery store security guard called 911 to report a woman in the parking lot who would not get out of someone else’s car.

The officer gave the dispatcher the police code for an intoxicated person and said the woman was unconscious. When asked whether she needed medical help, the officer said: 'She’s breathing and appears to be fine. She’s not in distress. She’s just passed-out drunk.'"
posted by ericb at 2:51 PM on April 13, 2006


Cops try to talk to Duke lacrosse players -- Police show up with no search warrants; players immediately call lawyers.
posted by ericb at 6:42 PM on April 14, 2006


One of the kids accused has a powerful father in DC (and GOP circles)
posted by amberglow at 3:05 AM on April 15, 2006


Community rallies to pray for healing in Duke lacrosse case.
posted by ericb at 9:29 PM on April 16, 2006


Lawyers Claim Pictures Snapped by Partygoer Disprove Rape Allegations
"Lawyers for lacrosse players at Duke University swept up amid allegations of rape are citing a timeline of photographs that they claim proves the accuser actually was manicuring her nails at the only time the rape could have occurred.

ABC News viewed more than a dozen photos taken by a student at the house party where the assault is alleged to have occurred, many of which were blown up to identify details....

In the photos, ABC News could see three couches in a semi-circle with the dancers in the center. The scene looks like a typical college fraternity house — with a sign on a wall bearing the Duke insignia and saying, 'It's hard to beat a team that never gives up.'

Sources from the players' camp say the photos corroborate the players' version of events and their claims that no sexual assault took place. Students are shown drinking and horsing around, but do not reach out toward, or make contact with, the dancers during the four- to seven-minute performance captured in photos.

Some players are talking among themselves and not paying close to attention to the dancers, which sources say contradicts the accuser's claim that the boys were growing 'excited and aggressive.'

A shot of the accuser during her dance shows what appear to be bruised knees and lacerations. Sources among the students' legal team argue that she may have had some of the bruises she says are from a sexual assault before ever arriving at the house.

Some of the woman's fingers are missing nail extensions. Sources associated with the players' legal team link this to the hypothesis that she was fixing her nails in the bathroom and that is why broken nails were found there — not because she was clawing at her alleged attackers in self-defense.

ABC News was not shown any photos of the alleged victim time stamped between 12:03:57 and 12:30:12. That is the period during which both the players and the accuser say she was in the bathroom and the woman claims she was raped."
posted by ericb at 9:34 PM on April 16, 2006


AP: 2 Duke Lacrosse Players Are Arrested--Two Duke University lacrosse players were arrested early Tuesday on charges of raping and kidnapping a stripper hired to dance at an off-campus party, and the district attorney said he hopes to charge a third person soon.

The indictments, unsealed Tuesday, did not indicate what possible evidence or arguments led the grand jury Monday to indict Reade Seligmann and Collin Finnerty, both 20. ...

posted by amberglow at 8:39 AM on April 18, 2006


Seligmann went to the exclusive Delbarton School, a lacrosse powerhouse in Morristown, N.J.

"It is our hope and our conviction that the full truth of all that happened that night will vindicate Reade of these charges," Delbarton's headmaster, the Rev. Luke L. Travers, said in a statement.


That cretin who wrote the disgusting email about skinning the strippers is also a grad of Delbarton, which is a tiny, all male Catholic school. I have a close relative who happens to be a D'barton alum as well as a trustee of that fine institution. He's definitely none to happy about any of this.
posted by psmealey at 3:53 PM on April 18, 2006


Key Evidence Supports Alibi in Potential Rape Defense for One Indicted Duke Player
"Over the last few days, sources close to the defense have given ABC News an exclusive look at the evidence behind one player's alleged alibi — evidence that includes electronic records, photographs and witness statements....

[Reade] Seligmann's argument is simple: He is innocent and he has an alibi. He attended the party that night, but documents, photos and witness testimony show that he wasn't there long enough or at the right time to attack the alleged victim.

Around midnight the night of March 13, Seligmann was already at the party when two women hired from a local escort agency arrived to dance for the boys — $400 each for a two-hour performance. A series of time-stamped photographs viewed by ABC News show the girls dancing at midnight and at 12:02 a.m.

By 12:24 a.m., a receipt reviewed by ABC indicates that Seligmann's ATM card was used at a nearby Wachovia bank. In a written statement to the defense also reviewed by ABC, a cabdriver confirms picking up Seligmann and a friend a block and a half from the party, and driving them to the bank. By 12:25 a.m., he was making a phone call to a girlfriend out of state.

What did Seligmann do after leaving the bank? The taxi driver remembers taking him to a drive-thru fast-food restaurant and then dropping him off at his dorm. Duke University records show that Seligmann's card was used to gain entry at 12:46 a.m.

In addition to bolstering Seligmann's alibi, the taxi driver's written testimony provided a rare glimpse of color in an otherwise darkened night.

'I remember those two guys starting enjoying their food inside my car, but I'm glad I end up with a nice tip and fare $25,' the taxi driver said in his testimony.

ABC News traced the steps of Seligmann's story, timing how long it took to get from place to place. In repeated trials, the drive between the Wachovia branch and the corner where the cab picked him up took approximately five minutes. This suggests that Seligmann must have left the house by around 12:19 a.m.

So, Seligmann's alibi suggests, he and the alleged victim were in the house together for less than 20 minutes. According to defense sources, based on the alleged victim's affidavit, all of the following would have transpired within that time period: She and her dance partner performed for several minutes, left after feeling threatened by the boys' growing 'excited and aggressive,' returned after being persuaded by team members to dance some more, and then she was forced into a bathroom, beaten and raped.

Within those same minutes, phone bill records reviewed by ABC show that the defendant's cell phone made at least two outgoing calls.

Seligmann and his co-defendant were presumably among the players identified by the alleged victim last Thursday. According to defense attorneys, the prosecution said the woman picked out two of her alleged attackers with 100 percent certainty and one other attacker with 90 percent certainty while examining pictures. But did Seligmann have the time, much less the will, to commit a violent, sexual crime?"

[ABC News | April 19, 2006]
posted by ericb at 1:57 PM on April 19, 2006


Hmm, doesn't look too good for the defendant.

Pictures and dancing stop at 12:02 am. Strippers are out the door by 12:03. By 12:08, someone talks them into coming back into the house. Three or four minutes of dancing, before she is forced into the bathroom and raped starting at 12:12am.

12:19, the defendant gets the hell out of dodge.

Alternatively, he saw/helped the stripper get hustled into the bathroom, knew what was about to go down, and decided to be elsewhere.

Not much of an alibi.

(of course, all this assumes that the stripper is telling the truth, yada yada yada).
posted by tkolar at 5:36 PM on April 19, 2006


"A member of the defense team...showed photos to the AP on Wednesday that show the accuser on the back porch of the off-campus house, with her clothing intact. She is smiling and looking through her purse. The defense team member said the digital photos were taken at 12:30 a.m., citing an electronic time-stamp known as metadata." [ABC News | April 19, 2005]

MSNBC Video: Exclusive photos in Duke case [currently available at this page -- click on Java pop-up video to watch].

"The victim stated she tried to leave [the bathroom] and the three males forcefully held her legs and arms and sexually assaulted her for about half an hour as she was 'hit, kicked and strangled,' according to the police affidavit, which only uses first names. The affidavit does not say what happened to the second dancer." [Newsday | March 30, 2006].

Details are coming out piecemeal -- from both sides. Many questions still remain -- regarding timelines, whether or not the alleged victim was intoxicated before arriving at the party or was "drugged" at the venue, etc.

All the general public has right now is a patchwork of "reported" details.

It will be interesting to see what is revealed on May 15 when the two defedants next appear in court.
posted by ericb at 7:12 PM on April 19, 2006


Yaknow, time-stamped photo's are only as reliable as the internal clock of the camera. My camera thinks it's 2001.
posted by dabitch at 8:56 AM on April 20, 2006


Yaknow, time-stamped photo's are only as reliable as the internal clock of the camera. My camera thinks it's 2001.

According to those who have seen the photos, the time-stamps have been confirmed as accurate, since in a number of photos they have been able to match the metadata with the times shown on people's wristwatches.
posted by ericb at 9:53 AM on April 20, 2006


i read somewhere earlier today that they used scratches on the guy's bodies to make the indictments.
posted by amberglow at 4:07 PM on April 20, 2006


i read somewhere earlier today that they used scratches on the guy's bodies to make the indictments.

That seems like it would be big news. Where did you find it?
posted by tkolar at 4:42 PM on April 20, 2006


Actually in an early interview with MSNBC D.A. Mike Nifong contended that the lack of DNA evidence under the alleged victims fingernails linking any of the Duke lacrosse players was likely due to the fact that the alleged perpetrators may have been wearing long-sleeve shirts. There have been reports on both ABC and MSNBC that the photographs show that most of the party attendees were actually wearing short-sleeve shirts.
posted by ericb at 5:11 PM on April 20, 2006


NIFONG: "She was grabbed from behind so that in essence somebody had an arm around her like this which she then had to struggle with in order to be able to breathe and it was in the course of that struggle that the fingernails, the artificial fingernails broke off.

Now, as you can see from my arm, if I were wearing a shirt, a long sleeve shirt or a jacket of some sort, even if there were enough force used to press down to break my skin through the clothing there might not be anyway that anything from my arm could get on to those fingernails. So, again, whether or not there would be any evidence would depend on exactly the situation. Were the fingernails actually in contact with the skin or were they in contact with clothing?"
------------------
ABRAMS: "We know Gary that her fingernails were found there. That was the most surprising thing to me there was that there was no DNA found under the finger nails and the other side could say well, look, if they had long sleeves on or a jacket on or something you wouldn‘t necessarily find DNA but that was a surprise to me."
------------------
ABRAMS: "The defense team says the women locked themselves in the bathroom, where based on other evidence, the accuser must have done her nails....What's most interesting about this picture is what the defense says is nail polish on the handrail. It was not present in an earlier picture. It appears to be consistent with the polish on her nails. They say it supports the defense theory that she had applied it while in the bathroom and that they say could explain why her fingernails were found in the bathroom....A few minutes later, the final picture. One of the men standing beside a car with what appears to be the leg of the accuser hanging out of the door. The defense says that this lacrosse player carried the accuser to the other dancer's car, again, there appears nail polish, a little bit of it, visible on the car..."
posted by ericb at 5:30 PM on April 20, 2006


Newsweek: What Happened at Duke? -- Sex. Race. A raucous party. A rape charge. And a prosecutor up for re-election. Inside the mystery that has roiled a campus and riveted the country.
posted by ericb at 8:58 PM on April 23, 2006


Duke University lacrosse player faces punishment in unrelated assault case in Washington, D.C.

Finnerty and two other high school men were accused of punching Jeffrey O. Bloxgom in the face and body after he told them to "stop calling him gay and other derogatory names," last November, according to court documents.
posted by psmealey at 6:58 AM on April 25, 2006


Duke Accuser Alleged Rape 13 Years Ago -- Charges were never pressed; her father says she wasn't raped then.
posted by ericb at 8:01 AM on April 28, 2006


"RITA COSBY: The pictures of the two lacrosse players have now been all over the news. Now that they‘ve been charged. Is she sure that these two boys were involved in the alleged attack?

ACCUSER‘S FATHER: According to what she told me, she‘s pretty sure, yes."

[MSNBC/Live & Direct | April 26, 2006]
Pretty sure?
posted by ericb at 9:47 AM on April 28, 2006


This is looking more and more like a Tom Wolfe novel with each passing day: an overly ambitious prosecutor; a victim with both a shady past and present; out of control, macho preppies perhaps being railroaded even though they are far from sympathetic figures; and the masses gathering on the quads to conduct candlelight vigils. What a mess.
posted by psmealey at 7:50 AM on April 29, 2006


With all due respect, ericb, WTF does her old man know? That could just be a figure of speech. Also, there's something also really off about reporting her family's reflections/recollections of the incident that happened in 1993. I mean, hearsay based on potentially very faulty memories of conversations and behavior of a decade ago? This should have no bearing on this case whatsoever, and it's just more sleazy journalism.

Whatever happened, she for whatever reason chose not to press charges. If she had been raped then, there might have been plenty or reasons for her not to pursue charges. It does happen.
posted by psmealey at 8:23 AM on April 29, 2006


« Older The University of Minnesota Human Rights Library...  |  Celebrities eating.... Newer »


This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments