Girl forced to apologize for hugging

April 7, 2006 7:36 AM

5 year old girl forced to apologize for hugging classmateAt issue is a hug Savannah said she got on the playground from a friend named Sophie. Savannah hugged Sophie back. The hugs resulted in Savannah having to write a letter, complete with teacher corrections, that read, "I touch Sophie because she touch me and I didn't like it because she was hugging me. I didn't like when she hugged me."
posted by bubblesonx (166 comments total)

This is what I hate about news. They take the word of a 5 year old girl who is afraid of getting in trouble from her parents over the word of the school superintendent and don't even bother talking to the teacher. My girlfriend works in a school and has to watch over kids standing in line daily. She saw this story and flipped. Her response? "God, those kids touch each other all the time. Touch, touch, touch. They can't keep their hands to themselves. It drives me crazy. [imitates childs voice] Ms. Banner, Davy keeps touching me! Make him stop! He's touching meeeee...."
posted by Roger Dodger at 7:43 AM on April 7, 2006

On one side, you have the word of a 5-year-old. On the other side, you have the word of a school board. Isn't it safe to assume that nobody involved knows what the hell they're talking about?
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:44 AM on April 7, 2006

um... wtf?
posted by magodesky at 7:45 AM on April 7, 2006

That Davy's a ladykiller.
posted by NationalKato at 7:48 AM on April 7, 2006

No touching!
posted by jrb223 at 7:49 AM on April 7, 2006

Children engage in normal mostly innocuous behaviour. School over-reatacts. Local TV station covers the occurance, very light on the details.

The point of this is?
posted by raedyn at 7:54 AM on April 7, 2006

On one side, you have the word of a 5-year-old. On the other side, you have the word of a school board. Isn't it safe to assume that nobody involved knows what the hell they're talking about?
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:44 AM CST on April 7 [!]

I'd be more inclined to believe the 5 year-old. School boards across the nation have proven that they are dim-witted, reactionary, easily intimidated, and petrified of legal action. When they're not expelling kindergartners for sexual harassment they're putting stickers in the math books saying Yaweh redefined Pi.

A pox on them all.
posted by Ynoxas at 7:54 AM on April 7, 2006

Uh... I'm confused. What actually happened?

[Yes, I've RTFA]
posted by Drexen at 7:55 AM on April 7, 2006

Yahweh. Sorry. I guess I'm not even supposed to be writing his name down anyway.

Bah.
posted by Ynoxas at 7:56 AM on April 7, 2006

Do other civilized nations have stories like this?
posted by j-urb at 7:57 AM on April 7, 2006

That's the point, nobody really knows what happened, except some parents overreact when their child is disciplined. And by discipline, I mean the child has to write down something she (a five year old) did not agree with. Sounds like a great reason to make the child change schools to me. [/sarcasm]
posted by Roger Dodger at 8:00 AM on April 7, 2006

In a proper school, eye contact, door-holding and smiling would be discouraged.
posted by Smart Dalek at 8:00 AM on April 7, 2006

Don't worry -- I'm *sure* the parents will find a school were every member of the faculty is a sensitive and caring genius and where the schoolboard is well-funded, rational and decisive.

Their little girl will likely *never* have to deal with idiocy again!
posted by CheeseburgerBrown at 8:03 AM on April 7, 2006

Where's the bear? You missed the bear? Mention the bear. Put a bear in tags. Man! you can't just drop the bear like it's nothing. TEH BEAR. [hugging my arse, this was BEARhugging]
posted by tellurian at 8:07 AM on April 7, 2006

Done.
posted by bubblesonx at 8:08 AM on April 7, 2006

How 'bout we take up a collection to send this reporter back to J-school?

Reporter, 25, Unable To Communicate Lede
Rookie Photographer Too Shy To Go Indoors; Shoots Parking Lot Instead
posted by ook at 8:13 AM on April 7, 2006

on the other hand, if you sodomize 18 children at a youth camp you totally get away with it -- no jail time, no criminal record. you just have to be the son of the Arizona Senate's President!!! isn't that cool?
posted by matteo at 8:16 AM on April 7, 2006

*gives matteo a bearhug*
posted by tellurian at 8:24 AM on April 7, 2006

*scraps Massachussets from list of remaining US states of sanity*
posted by funambulist at 8:25 AM on April 7, 2006

i wonder what they would have done if the 5 year old didn't know how to write ... and a lot of 5 year olds don't

5 year olds also don't discipline each other for trifles, make rules and call parents in over hugs, run to the paper with a story, pull themselves out of school or expose the whole absurd mess to a nationwide audience

today's lesson, savannah, is that adults can be more idiotic than children
posted by pyramid termite at 8:25 AM on April 7, 2006

We're talking about five-year-olds. The teacher should have just ignored them and let them sort it out for themselves. A bear-hug from a five-year-old is rarely lethal, and both would have forgotten about it by the end of the day.
posted by Jatayu das at 8:26 AM on April 7, 2006

Isn't just about every South Park plot based on some real-life ridiculousness like this?
posted by psmealey at 8:28 AM on April 7, 2006

psmealey - yes, South Park is exactly like that.
posted by daq at 8:34 AM on April 7, 2006

People, there is a cootie epidemic that you're failing to address.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:37 AM on April 7, 2006

"She said, 'I'm really sad that I got in trouble for hugging,'" Brier said.

Me too.
posted by grabbingsand at 8:38 AM on April 7, 2006

They're teaching these kids to write now?
posted by sohcahtoa at 8:40 AM on April 7, 2006

CheeseburgerBrown >>> "Don't worry -- I'm *sure* the parents will find a school were every member of the faculty is a sensitive and caring genius and where the schoolboard is well-funded, rational and decisive."

Yes, they are moving to Canada.

Well okay, sure, very few of our schools are funded to the level that they should be, but I have rarely seen the kind of absurd, surreal stories coming out of Canadian schools that seem to be an almost daily occurrence in USA school systems. Plus, a much higher percentage of teachers up here actually give a fuck about what they're doing, and work as hard as they can to do it.

This is a seriously fucked up story btw.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 8:40 AM on April 7, 2006

Just an idea, but based on the story, this is what I think happened (and no, I wasn't there):

Sophie hugs Savannah, Savannah is in a bad mood or mad at sophie. Sophie may have given her an actual hug, or could have been trying to squeeze Savannah to hurt her. Savannah squeezes Sophie back angrily, possibly lifting her off the ground, but clearly trying to hurt Sophie. The teacher/adult responsible for watching the playground witnesses Savannah's behavoir and punishes her.

The punishment is to right a letter to your parents to let them know why you got in trouble, and to apologize for your actions.

Parent's freak out, b/c their precious Savannah couldn't possible have done anything wrong and must have been giving Sophie an affectionate hug.

School board/teachers/principal doesn't back down, and tells the parent's their kid was acting violently. Parents twist the story and get it plastered in the local paper to bash the school.
posted by Crash at 8:44 AM on April 7, 2006

psmealey Isn't just about every South Park plot based on some real-life ridiculousness like this?

Hell, if the makers of South Park heard about this, they probably would make an episode about it.
posted by bubblesonx at 8:44 AM on April 7, 2006

If I ever have children, I'm going to promote hugging.
posted by NationalKato at 8:45 AM on April 7, 2006

Do other civilized nations have stories like this?

Do civilized nations have stories like these?
posted by 327.ca at 8:45 AM on April 7, 2006

I'm gonna sue all of them. School board, parents, TV station....
posted by fixedgear at 8:48 AM on April 7, 2006

I'm gonna sue all of them. School board, parents, TV station....

And don't forget MeFi. Why should anyone get away with this?
posted by 327.ca at 8:50 AM on April 7, 2006

Especially MeFi.
posted by NationalKato at 8:50 AM on April 7, 2006

MeFi has all the hugging money anyway.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:53 AM on April 7, 2006

The teacher asked several students to write a note to their parents and describe what happened."

Why the outrage? It must be a slow newsday.
posted by caddis at 8:58 AM on April 7, 2006

Hell, when I was in elementary school we used to give each other wedgies, wet willies, etc, and I never got in trouble.
posted by bubblesonx at 8:59 AM on April 7, 2006

The parents are a pair of fucking whiners. Christ. Learn to cope with life, people.

Idiots and TV news. A depressing combination.
posted by mr_roboto at 9:03 AM on April 7, 2006

What ever happened to the teacher is right, even when they're wrong? Teaching your kids to question authority is fine, but not when they're Kindergarteners. As a parent it's your duty to support the teacher 100%, otherwise home school.

And as the father of twin 5 year old girls, I can state without hesitation that the story from both girls is wrong. That's what five year old girls do, mess up the salient facts.
posted by Keith Talent at 9:03 AM on April 7, 2006

Assuming that something or other happened I'm not sure what is worse - the school, the parents or the press. When I think of the things that happened at my school...
posted by ibanda at 9:05 AM on April 7, 2006

IMHO, home schooling is a far better option than sending one's children to the public schools. The public schools are so dumbed down, it's surprising that children are able to learn anything at all.
posted by bubblesonx at 9:10 AM on April 7, 2006

As a parent it's your duty to support the teacher 100%

Rubbish
posted by caddis at 9:13 AM on April 7, 2006

As a parent it's your duty to support the teacher 100%

Not when they've got their heads shoved up their asses.
posted by bubblesonx at 9:16 AM on April 7, 2006

Impossible to judge the situation without seeing what happened. But I have often seen little kids hurt each other or be aggressive in an "affectionate" way so as to not get in trouble. Or, simply doing it harder than the other kids likes, or when the other kid does not want to be hugged - they have that right too. So it's possible it wasn't as sweet as the parents would like to believe.
posted by agregoli at 9:25 AM on April 7, 2006

To be fair, she did try to seduce her online first.
posted by Smedleyman at 9:27 AM on April 7, 2006

"I touch Sophie because she touch me and I didn't like it because she was hugging me. I didn't like when she hugged me."

That was with teacher corrections was it? Jesus, it's not the hugging they need to be getting worked up about at that school.
posted by biffa at 9:27 AM on April 7, 2006

I'm gonna have to pull the homophobe card. If she had been hugging a boy...

They are probably racist too, I haven't figured out how yet, but I will.
posted by Pollomacho at 9:28 AM on April 7, 2006

What ever happened to the teacher is right, even when they're wrong? Teaching your kids to question authority is fine, but not when they're Kindergarteners. As a parent it's your duty to support the teacher 100%, otherwise home school.

Uh... sure. That's a great attitude.

As far as this story goes, is there a particular reason we're calling Savannah's account into question? Or is this just another example of, "OMFG, I control+F'd, sh3 is t3h like 5-yr-0ld s3h c4nt b3 rite & s0 w4t!!!1!"
posted by magodesky at 9:32 AM on April 7, 2006

I think Joe Jamail should handle this.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 9:32 AM on April 7, 2006

Caddis & Bubblesonx - You'd leave your kids all day with someone you don't trust? When I drop my kids off at school I'm leaving their well being to someone else, if I didn't trust them completely, I'd make other arrangements. Part of the duty you owe the teacher for taking responsibility for your kids is to support them unequivicably.
posted by Keith Talent at 9:33 AM on April 7, 2006

There's a diference between five and thirteen year olds.
posted by Keith Talent at 9:34 AM on April 7, 2006

There's a diference between five and thirteen year olds.

Oh, so it would have been okay if it had been a five-year-old? I'll have to keep that in mind.
posted by magodesky at 9:37 AM on April 7, 2006

Yeah, 5 year olds need to be encouraged to question authority.
posted by Richard Daly at 9:42 AM on April 7, 2006

It's the word of a five year old, her parents, a school, and a lousy journalist. You'd be a fool to trust any of them, really.

If I'm going to trust anyone on this, it'll be Crash. His/Her suggestion makes the most sense of any made so far.
posted by Bugbread at 9:48 AM on April 7, 2006

IMHO, home schooling is a far better option than sending one's children to the public schools. The public schools are so dumbed down, it's surprising that children are able to learn anything at all.
posted by bubblesonx at 11:10 AM CST on April 7 [!]

That would be great if every family could afford to have one parent stay home full time, and afford to buy enough books and materials.

Oh, and if the parents were educated enough to give high school level instruction on every subject.

Oh, and also if parents don't mind their children turning into social misfits.

School is about much more than just what is contained within the textbooks, something most homeschool advocates miss completely. The social aspects of school, especially in the early grades and ironically the later grades, are AT LEAST as important as the curriculum.

Also, most homeschool advocates badly overestimate their knowledge. Are you sure you are capable of teaching your children everything from phonics to physics? From coloring to chemistry? From music to mathematics? Are you really well versed and trained enough to handle the ENTIRE educational needs of your child from age 5 till 18?

Very few people have the ability to teach their child everything. I know lots of people who homeschool, and I doubt any of them can teach things such as geometry, history, art, and calculus. It is usually a mess, with the parent struggling to stay a few pages ahead of the child in the book. Then, especially in math and science, the parents often cannot teach the child at all, and simply rely on the textbook to explain everything.

And even if you think you are smart enough to do all this, what about your neighbors? Are all of them smart enough to subject their child to the homeschool revolution?

But of course, I may be overly sensitive to this because in the South, most homeschooling is done so you can reinforce religious training. It should be called "homechurching" because literature is well regarded, as long as it's only one book.
posted by Ynoxas at 9:54 AM on April 7, 2006

I think many parents make the mistake of trusting their children too much. Young children are stupid and tell lies. Young children do many things that they shouldn't. If you are told that your young child did something wrong the young child almost certainly did. Adults don't often lie about children misbehaving, sure some adults may occasionally think that certain behavior on the part of young children is worse than it is but generally it is a mistake to believe a child over an adult. Generally it is a mistake to believe your child over an adult.

In the absence of other evidence taking the word of a five year old over the word of a 35 year old is pathologically foolish.
posted by I Foody at 9:57 AM on April 7, 2006

I'd go with Crash, too. It's just that sort of smug parental attitude that is pervasive in all of these suburbs west of Boston.
posted by kuujjuarapik at 10:04 AM on April 7, 2006

Young children are stupid and tell lies. Young children do many things that they shouldn't. If you are told that your young child did something wrong the young child almost certainly did.

It's been my experience that these are all things that apply to adults far more often than they apply to children.
posted by magodesky at 10:05 AM on April 7, 2006

I understand you, I Foody (and thanks for the liberal usage of the word "generally"). The only thing I would say is that I generally trust the adult over the little kid when it concerns "what". When it comes to "why", it's all up in the air.

In this case, the child says she hugged someone. The school says she hugged someone. They both agree on the "what". As for the "why": kids lie, so you can't trust them, but the school has no ESP equipment, so you can't trust them either.

If I were the parents, I'd have tried to find out what Sophie had to say.

If it were "Savannah hugged me like so my eyes pop outta my head and I gotta look for my eyes", I'd figure the situation was Crash's scenario. If it were "Savannah gave me a hug and Ms. Cooper came yelling at us and saying don't hug eachother", I'd figure it was the school overreacting. In the absence of Sophie's evidence, it's a toss-up, so I'd just have to go with the most logical explanation (Crash's scenario).

I say this because I have both memories of lying like mad and avoiding trouble, and memories of getting in trouble when I wasn't in the wrong, because folks believed what other people incorrectly said my intentions were. Kids often lie, teachers are often just wrong about things.
posted by Bugbread at 10:10 AM on April 7, 2006

Though all the local Boston media ended up with this story yesterday, it originated with the Herald, so my first reaction was to see this as one of their patented "OMG! Look at the stoopid lib'rul suburbs being so politically correct!" stories.

Crash's version is very close to the way the the school superintendent explained the situation.
posted by briank at 10:14 AM on April 7, 2006

dirtynumbangelboy: Please take your America-bashing elsewhere. This isn't the first time I've seen it.

Your statement "Plus, a much higher percentage of teachers up here actually give a fuck about what they're doing" shows that you don't know any American teachers. I know several, and they most definitely care about what they're doing and work very hard at it.

This incident most certainly is not a 'daily occurrence' down here. This seems to be more of an isolated incident where the media makes hay with what ambiguous facts exist.
posted by drstein at 10:19 AM on April 7, 2006

Can anyone explain to me what "questioning authority" has to do with this?

We're talking about a teacher 'denouncing' a 5 year old girl for hugging another 5 year old girl, right? not for bashing her repeatedly on the head with a stick or throwing boiling water in her face.

Or is anyone saying that something of that magnitude happpened and yet for some reason the teacher lied and said the crime in question was a hug?

I don't understand...
posted by funambulist at 10:20 AM on April 7, 2006

I like how so many people here are taking the side of the administrators just because it's the contrary thing to do. Try and spin me, evil journalist?! I'll tell you what, I'm pro Ebola!

But honestly who knows. Whatever happened I'm sure the kids are scarred for life.
posted by furiousthought at 10:21 AM on April 7, 2006

drstein >>> "dirtynumbangelboy: Please take your America-bashing elsewhere. This isn't the first time I've seen it. "


1) Too bad. Or is free speech only for Americans?

2) Your country is severely, and probably irrevocably, fucked up in too many ways to mention. Or is this more nationalistic jingoism that says we can't criticize you--but America is free to criticise everyone else?

The educational system in the USA is fucked. Students are getting passed up to grades--and to universities--they have no business being in, because they don't have the basic skills required. Why? Because overworked and underpaid teachers have had their zest for the job sucked out of them by monolithic bureaucracies and a feeling that it's all futile anyway.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 10:25 AM on April 7, 2006

funambulist : "We're talking about a teacher 'denouncing' a 5 year old girl for hugging another 5 year old girl, right?"

We don't know. Hard to tell, with the link only providing half the story. It could be a hug, it could be a bear hug. Both are hugs. One is used as a sign of affection. The other is a fighting move. It is not in dispute that it was one or the other. The question is "which".
posted by Bugbread at 10:26 AM on April 7, 2006

In the absence of Sophie's evidence, it's a toss-up, so I'd just have to go with the most logical explanation (Crash's scenario).

Logical? Plausible, maybe. But in what way is Crash's scenario anything more than pure conjecture?

I have to say, it's a little strange how the one eye-witness account we have is being so easily dismissed because, as everybody knows, children never tell the truth. Ever. Oh and also, they don't have souls.

You also kind of have to wonder about these teachers. With teacher corrections, Savannah's letter reads, "I touch Sophie because she touch me and I didn't like it because she was hugging me." What kind of grammar are they teaching these children?
posted by magodesky at 10:37 AM on April 7, 2006

ook: Where do we contribute?

furiousthought: "I'm sure the kids are scarred for life". Only if they read this thread.

Keith Talent: "That's what five year old girls do, mess up the salient facts." It must be only when they're twins. I've seen quite a few singletons get the facts correct over and over again.

Ynoxas: "their children turning into social misfits." Didn't see you qualify that one so I'll address it. Not all of them turn into social misfits. My homeschooled daughter is 19 and in her third year of college. She also has a good selection of friends and acquaintances. I'd saw she fits in well socially.

I deal with a pack of five year olds everyday. They hug. They're huggers. It's what they do. Everything else is just what the teachers force them to do.

All this should have been handled in the school system with the parents. There's a good chance both parties are spinning the issue based on their own perceptions. It's easy to do.
posted by ?! at 10:46 AM on April 7, 2006

Too bad. Or is free speech only for Americans?

Relax, dirtynumbangelboy. I think teachers on both sides of the border have have difficult jobs made more even more difficult by taxpayer apathy and bureaucratic indifference. No need for a pissing match.
posted by 327.ca at 10:49 AM on April 7, 2006

magodesky : "Logical? Plausible, maybe. But in what way is Crash's scenario anything more than pure conjecture?"

It isn't. I wouldn't defend Crash's speculation to the death. But in a situation where we've got multiple conjectural possibilities, I'll go with it. If Sophie comes up and says "It didn't hurt, it was just a friendly hug", I will gladly toss the conjecture out the window.

magodesky : "I have to say, it's a little strange how the one eye-witness account we have is being so easily dismissed because, as everybody knows, children never tell the truth. Ever. Oh and also, they don't have souls."

Who said that? I think what has been said is "children often lie". Not always. Not even the majority of the time. But when in trouble, children lie just as well and as frequently as adults do. If some 30 year old got arrested for embezzlement, and said "I didn't do it", I wouldn't automatically believe him. Why is it so strange that I don't automatically believe Savannah's position, then?

Also, in this case, we have two eye witness accounts: that of Savannah, and that of the aide who was monitoring.
posted by Bugbread at 10:50 AM on April 7, 2006

As a parent it's your duty to support the teacher 100%, otherwise home school.

Fuck that shit.
posted by eustacescrubb at 10:52 AM on April 7, 2006

I have a five-year old daughter. The first thing I do when I see her after work is bend down for a hug. Kids at that age need all the hugs they can get. It seems pretty clear that this situation is very unclear so commenting on the specifics is not something I'm going to do here.

I will however get dirtynumbangelboy's back for doing little more than stating the obvious. Face it Americans, your country is really badly broken, in many and varied ways. Obviously, examples of poor decision-making may be found world-wide, but the USA takes the cake for this flavour of painfully stupid.
posted by stinkycheese at 10:59 AM on April 7, 2006

I will however get dirtynumbangelboy's back for doing little more than stating the obvious. Face it Americans, your country is really badly broken, in many and varied ways.

And it's really helpful to keep pointing this out, isn't it?
posted by 327.ca at 11:02 AM on April 7, 2006

stinkycheese : "the USA takes the cake for this flavour of painfully stupid."

It does, but there's a question of which flavour of stupid we're discussing.
If Savannah's parents interpretation is true, and Savannah was just giving a friendly hug, then the school's overreaction is painfully stupid.
If the school's interpretation is true, and Savannah was bearhugging some kid, then the parents' overreaction is painfully stupid.

Either way, it's painfully stupid, but it's premature to say whether the school is painfully stupid, or the parents are painfully stupid.
posted by Bugbread at 11:03 AM on April 7, 2006

Only if they read this thread.

What we do is, we archive this thread and this discussion on our computers, and let it incubate for 11 years, timing its rerelease to coincide with either little Savannah or little Sophie's sixteenth birthday. THEN WE'LL SEE WHO'S SORRY.
posted by furiousthought at 11:03 AM on April 7, 2006

Caddis & Bubblesonx - You'd leave your kids all day with someone you don't trust?

Unless a parent is going to insist on personally meeting and approving of all of their children's teachers, I don't know how they could say they necessarily *trust* them. In the case of public schools, I don't see how it really matters, as the school board isn't going to find another teacher just because you don't approve of the current one.
posted by bubblesonx at 11:03 AM on April 7, 2006

Another vote for crash.
posted by yeolcoatl at 11:04 AM on April 7, 2006

But of course, I may be overly sensitive to this because in the South, most homeschooling is done so you can reinforce religious training. It should be called "homechurching" because literature is well regarded, as long as it's only one book.


In all honesty, I would prefer secular private schools to homeschooling.
posted by bubblesonx at 11:07 AM on April 7, 2006

Either way, it's painfully stupid, but it's premature to say whether the school is painfully stupid, or the parents are painfully stupid.

Either way, they're Americans. ;-)

And it's really helpful to keep pointing this out, isn't it?

Please.

The rest of the world has to deal with the results of the USA's stupidity, and will for the rest of our lifetimes. If the worst thing for you is having to be reminded of it, count yourself lucky.
posted by stinkycheese at 11:09 AM on April 7, 2006

Who said that? I think what has been said is "children often lie". Not always. Not even the majority of the time. But when in trouble, children lie just as well and as frequently as adults do. If some 30 year old got arrested for embezzlement, and said "I didn't do it", I wouldn't automatically believe him. Why is it so strange that I don't automatically believe Savannah's position, then?

Skepticism is certainly a good think. But I think the case that children can't be trusted has been overstated in this thread. So much so that it seems to border on ageism.

Also, in this case, we have two eye witness accounts: that of Savannah, and that of the aide who was monitoring.

We know that there was an aide who was monitoring. We don't know that the aide actually witnessed the incident in question. The articles doesn't say that. And I don't know about the rest of you, but when I was in school, the people who were supposed to be watching us had a very loose definition of "watching." A hug, bear-hug or otherwise, would have never even been noticed. So I tend to take what the "monitors" say with a grain of salt.
posted by magodesky at 11:12 AM on April 7, 2006

Personally, I don't think these kinds of issues are limited to America...I think reporting of this kind of stuff is unusually common in America. Schools make dumb decisions everywhere. Parents make dumb decisions everywhere. Kids make dumb decisions everywhere. It's just far more likely to make the paper in America, hence it sticks out more.

(Note: there are some cases where the types of complaints are largely "America-only". However, "student does something to other student. School says it was violent. Student who did it claims innocence" is not one of them. I've seen the same issue with pats/whacks on the back in a Japanese school, but since the kid grumblingly apologized, it never made it to his parents. If he'd told his parents and they took his side, I can pretty much guarantee it would never have made the news. And hence, the world wouldn't know of it, and hence people wouldn't be saying "Only in Japan")
posted by Bugbread at 11:17 AM on April 7, 2006

I think that a good percentage of the US electorate are appalled at what's happening in their country -- and that MeFites are predominantly in that number. I think it's tactless and unnecessary to turn this thread into an argument about whether or not the USA is fucked.
posted by 327.ca at 11:21 AM on April 7, 2006

This story doesn't make sense. There's no indication that the hug upset or hurt the other child, beyond the implication that the hug may have resulted in one of the children being lifted slightly off the ground. The story strikes me as so thin that no one really has any facts. A teacher's aide saw something and they tried to get corroboration from a bunch of five year olds? It sounds to me as if the kids are poorly supervised and they're trying to compensate for inadequate supervision with overadequate bureaucracy.
posted by palinode at 11:26 AM on April 7, 2006

I agree.

I just thought it was incredibly lame of 327.ca to be acting like it was out of line to criticise the US, and I wanted to back dirtynumbangelboy on their point. Sometimes the attitude on Metafilter seems to be "well, I don't like Bush either, so don't you dare imply that I'm somehow to blame".

I would posit that, if you live outside the US, that attitude really rankles.
posted by stinkycheese at 11:29 AM on April 7, 2006

USA USA USA


Please. USA Sucks. Canada sucks. Iraq Sucks and we made it all that way. Its all our fault. MeFi is turning into my wife, taking things off topic and blaming me (USA) for everything. Fucking drop it.


anyway, I have a 2 year old, and she hugs her classmates all teh time. Sometimes, she will tell me that someone did something to her (if she is in a bad mood, she doesnt like hugs, so a hug setting her off is not unreasonable) I tell her, "Did you tell them not to hug you?" "If you tell them no, and they keep doing it, tell your teacher that you told them no adn they didnt stop."
If this happened to me and my daughter, Id tell her "If you dont like the hug, tell her to stop or tell the teacher."

I think the way you get the most out of school (my daughter goes to preschool) is to partner with the teachers. It may be unreasonable to know each teacher well on a personal level, but staying in communication with them and letting them know what you expect out of them for your child is a good start. I like to also show my daughter to respect authority figure, but constantly telling her that if she has a problem, to tell me, the teachers or a police man. Ill pull over and let her say hi to the policemen on horses, so she knows that there is always someoen she can trust. I dont think this "I dont agree with you so fuck you" attitude the parents are exhibiting is bad for the child and will only result in another stupid american adult in 13 years.
posted by subaruwrx at 11:37 AM on April 7, 2006

Sorry, it was drstein that initially took DNAB to task. I'm going to go do some work now.

On preview: I...can't...resist... Subaruwrx, the only thing more predictable than USian outrage at any suggestion of blame is the overwrought "alright, I'm guilty, hang me from the highest post" freakout shortly thereafter. Please - for the love of civilisation - can the American left move beyond these two pillars of selfish inanity?

OK, I'm really going to go work now.
posted by stinkycheese at 11:46 AM on April 7, 2006

I just thought it was incredibly lame of 327.ca to be acting like it was out of line to criticise the US...

Please grow up, stinkycheese. If you hijack a thread just to remind everyone that "the rest of the world has to deal with the results of the USA's stupidity, and will for the rest of our lifetimes," you're going to get some pushback.
posted by 327.ca at 11:51 AM on April 7, 2006

What are you implying, stinkycheese? That it is our fault?

Foreigners using this ridiculous article to draw sweeping generalizations about the current state of the U.S. education system is laughable.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 11:52 AM on April 7, 2006

Voters of America, please return your heads to your respective holes in the ground - the actions of your twice-elected government have nothing whatsoever to do with you.

You may now return to arguing about whether the five-year-old should've apologised for hugging another five-year-old.
posted by stinkycheese at 12:00 PM on April 7, 2006

I agree that we must not derail this thread into some sort of political argument.

After all, there's only one American that is somehow to blame for all this hugging business, and this man is George W. Bush.
posted by qvantamon at 12:00 PM on April 7, 2006

Speaking of stupid, this thread appears to have tapped into a deep vein of Metafilter Stupid. Eck.
posted by mr_roboto at 12:02 PM on April 7, 2006

I really hate it when I try to make a joke about derailing some thread about Bush, just to be beat by someone doing it seriously.
posted by qvantamon at 12:03 PM on April 7, 2006

stinkycheese : "You may now return to arguing about whether the five-year-old should've apologised for hugging another five-year-old."

Well, yeah, that is what this post is all about.
posted by Bugbread at 12:06 PM on April 7, 2006

"I touch George W. Bush because he touch me and I didn't like it because he was hugging me. I didn't like when he hugged me."
posted by OmieWise at 12:06 PM on April 7, 2006

please, stinkycheese. If we are going to get blamed for everything, and then blamed for not accepting blame, what do you want us to do?

The world will have to live with some of the decisions of the USSR, North Korea, Iraq, UAE, France, UK, AUS and pretty much every other country. I know George Bush makes it easy to hate, but you have to accept the fact that every country is corrupt, screwed up and would destroy every other country if given teh chance.

George Bush is bad, and Im sure every blog in the 1940's was bad mouthing Hitler and Germany, but life goes on. Campaning for local government (which I am doing) can change things in the US. Me defending the US against a Canadian malcontent who is up in arms over a school teacher arguement in some stupid local paper is hardly me taking sides or burying my head in the sand.

Chill.
posted by subaruwrx at 12:07 PM on April 7, 2006

It could be a hug, it could be a bear hug. Both are hugs. One is used as a sign of affection. The other is a fighting move.

What? A bear hug, which the dictionary defines as "a rough, tight hug", between 5 year old girls (!) is a fighting move now? Do they start competing in the WWF so young? Little Uma Thurmans being raised for the Kill Bill remake already?

- Mood: disbelief. Emoticon: double frown. -

I'm getting the same impression as palinode.

(You know, at first, before clicking the link, that "I touch Sophie because she touch me and I didn't like it because she was hugging me. I didn't like when she hugged me" made me think they were making the child come up with allegations of sexual harassment against her class mate! glad the story is not that fucked up at least... )
posted by funambulist at 12:08 PM on April 7, 2006

Baby_Balrog >>> "What are you implying, stinkycheese? That it is our fault?

"Foreigners using this ridiculous article to draw sweeping generalizations about the current state of the U.S. education system is laughable."


It's using this article, amongst dozens, hundreds, thousands of others, to draw sweeping conclusions about the state of your country as a whole.

Ah, but I missed the key word: foreigners. Americans are allowed to criticise everyone else, but woe betide anyone with the temerity to question that the Emperor's clothes are perhaps not nonexistent, but certainly rather insubstantial.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 12:09 PM on April 7, 2006

Im sure every blog in the 1940's was bad mouthing Hitler and Germany, but life goes on.

Wow, they had blogs in the 1940's!?!?!?
posted by agregoli at 12:10 PM on April 7, 2006

subaruwrx >>> "Me defending the US against a Canadian malcontent"

Yay! Ad hominems, again. Way to bolster your position.

funambulist >>> "(You know, at first, before clicking the link, that 'I touch Sophie because she touch me and I didn't like it because she was hugging me. I didn't like when she hugged me' made me think they were making the child come up with allegations of sexual harassment against her class mate! glad the story is not that fucked up at least... )"

No, that happened a few years ago. Some kid in grade 3 or something was disciplined for sexual harrassment for kissing a girl in his class.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 12:11 PM on April 7, 2006

[i]
Wow, they had blogs in the 1940's!?!?!?
posted by agregoli at 12:10 PM PST on April 7 [!][/i]
it was a joke.

Nah though... 5 year olds are cool
posted by subaruwrx at 12:13 PM on April 7, 2006

I hope you all realize how ridiculous you look when you turn a discussion about two girls hugging each other into an argument about the evils of America.
posted by magodesky at 12:13 PM on April 7, 2006

funambulist : "A bear hug, which the dictionary defines as 'a rough, tight hug', between 5 year old girls (!) is a fighting move now?"

Well, I didn't really know how to phrase it. A bear hug is an action which is meant to hurt or piss off the other person. "Fighting move" is overstating it, but I didn't know what else to say. "Intentionally pain or discomfort causing action" is so awkward.

In a similar vein, what would you call that thing when you shake someone's hand and they kind of ripple their fingers so your knuckles slide against eachother and it hurts like hell? It certainly isn't an "attack", but I have no idea what to call that kind of action.
posted by Bugbread at 12:13 PM on April 7, 2006

...what would you call that thing when you shake someone's hand and they kind of ripple their fingers so your knuckles slide against eachother and it hurts like hell? It certainly isn't an "attack", but I have no idea what to call that kind of action.

Diplomacy.
posted by 327.ca at 12:17 PM on April 7, 2006

Okay, look, in retrospect, I probably should have meta'd drstein for his comment:

dirtynumbangelboy: Please take your America-bashing elsewhere. This isn't the first time I've seen it.

That's where this got derailed. Like I said, feel free to going back to arguing about whether tis better to hug or not to hug. I'm certainly not apologising for calling people on this kind of selective enforcement of "bashing".

Oh, and BTW, calling people outside the US "foreigners"? Really doesn't help your case if you're trying to appear non-assholish.
posted by stinkycheese at 12:26 PM on April 7, 2006

OmieWise: Show us on the doll where George W. Bush touched you.
posted by qvantamon at 12:27 PM on April 7, 2006

What? A bear hug, which the dictionary defines as "a rough, tight hug", between 5 year old girls (!) is a fighting move now? Do they start competing in the WWF so young? Little Uma Thurmans being raised for the Kill Bill remake already?

Dude, have you been around 5 year olds lately? They are animals! Trust me, you do NOT want to turn your back on one.
posted by Pollomacho at 12:28 PM on April 7, 2006

Despite being a patriotic American, it's difficult to get riled because my country is being insulted by a reactionary who just finished arguing that his country is more enlightened to the degree it permits sex between adults and teenagers.
posted by cribcage at 12:33 PM on April 7, 2006

dnab: "Ah, but I missed the key word: foreigners."

Well, unless I'm mistaken, you are in Canada. And I am in Michigan. You are telling me things about my homeland that I don't believe are true, and you are foreign to me. I don't really think it's appropriate for you to generalize about a nation of a quarter of a billion people.

Would you like to start discussing the educational situation in Canada?

"Americans are allowed to criticise everyone else"

I haven't criticised anyone. Until now. You, sir, are a Canadian asshole.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 12:35 PM on April 7, 2006

No, that happened a few years ago. Some kid in grade 3 or something was disciplined for sexual harrassment for kissing a girl in his class.

Ah, dirtynumbangelboy, thanks! I thought there was something familiar here - yes I'd indeed read about that. That was so... weird. Imagine convincing kids that kissing is sexual harassment. Brrr.

*hugs and kisses to all Americans! sue me if you can!*

In a similar vein, what would you call that thing when you shake someone's hand and they kind of ripple their fingers so your knuckles slide against eachother and it hurts like hell? It certainly isn't an "attack", but I have no idea what to call that kind of action.

ok bugbread, but none of that is mentioned, no hurt or pain is mentioned, I'm just commenting on what I read in the story, you know? it only talks about hugs, and even if she hugged the other girl real tight and lifted her off her feet and that's what they mean by bear hug between two five year old girls, it's not even worthy of the teachers attention, especially if none of the girls complained in the first place.
posted by funambulist at 12:36 PM on April 7, 2006

i]
Wow, they had blogs in the 1940's!?!?!?
posted by agregoli at 12:10 PM PST on April 7 [!][/i]
it was a joke.



And my comment wasn't? People are so touchy around here.
posted by agregoli at 12:42 PM on April 7, 2006

"Despite being a patriotic American, it's difficult to get riled because my country is being insulted by a reactionary who just finished arguing that his country is more enlightened to the degree it permits sex between adults and teenagers."

Might also be useful to provide a link.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 12:42 PM on April 7, 2006

Oh, and BTW, calling people outside the US "foreigners"? Really doesn't help your case if you're trying to appear non-assholish.

Well, I wouldn't want to appear "assholish" myself. But just out of curiosity, what should an American call people outside the U.S.?
posted by magodesky at 12:43 PM on April 7, 2006

Funambulist:

True, no pain or hurt is mentioned. Actually, if you look at what the school said, it's quite dry:

"...dispute of the facts between a hug and a lifting of a child off the floor." "...one girl bear hugged another girl and lifted her off the ground. The aide who was monitoring told the teacher. The teacher asked several students to write a note to their parents and describe what happened."

I can't tell if there is no mention of pain or hurt because there wasn't any, or because the school is scrupulously any reference to anything besides that which was directly visually observed.

Which puts me back to square one, which is that nobody said there was pain or discomfort, and nobody said there wasn't pain or discomfort, so I don't know whether there was pain or discomfort. So we're back to not knowing whether the school is the stupid party, or the parents are the stupid party.
posted by Bugbread at 12:44 PM on April 7, 2006

In this case, Canadian.
posted by stinkycheese at 12:45 PM on April 7, 2006

Dude, have you been around 5 year olds lately? They are animals! Trust me, you do NOT want to turn your back on one.

Brings to mind this previous MeFi thread: "You're in the middle of an arena. You're being attacked by 5 year olds who will stop at nothing to kill you. How many can you take on before they overcome you?"
posted by ericb at 12:47 PM on April 7, 2006

Dude, have you been around 5 year olds lately?

Yes!

They are animals!

I know!

Trust me, you do NOT want to turn your back on one.

I won't! And I can kick their ass any time with my Uma Thurman moves and my tickle them til they surrender ninja technique. And kinder surprise eggs. Surprise eggs always works. Young and bribeable, ha ha, that's their weakness and will be their undoing. 5 year old girls or boys are not going to intimidate me!

*exits thread in a flourish of Bruce Lee moves*
posted by funambulist at 12:48 PM on April 7, 2006

Stinkycheese, in this case, if one said "Canadian using this ridiculous article to draw sweeping generalizations about the current state of the U.S. education system is laughable", it would imply that "Non-Canadians using this ridiculous article to draw sweeping generalizations about the current state of the U.S. education system would not be laughable".

Personally, I would think that "non-Americans" would be preferable in this case to both "foreigners" and "Canadian".
posted by Bugbread at 12:49 PM on April 7, 2006

Channel 5 (WCVB) led yesterday's 6 O'clock news with this garbage. I can't wait to tune in tonight and find out if a wet willy was deployed at a Newton middle school.
posted by BigFatWhale at 12:55 PM on April 7, 2006

I wonder if anyone has ever sat down with either of these girls and explained to them, in simple language, what hugs are for, and when they are appropriate.

I think it is quite possible that the girls also lack the vocabulary to describe what happened. For all (I know what) they know, a hug is simply whenever someone has their arms around you and squeezes. They might not have the language to articulate the difference between a "bear hug" (this thread's definition) and a nice hug, other than "it was a hug I didn't like".
posted by hellphish at 12:55 PM on April 7, 2006

As a Canadian, I hereby apologize for my nation-mates who took this as ann opportunity to bash America. I wish they would have joined in on one of your America-bashing threads instead, and left this to be a five-year-old bashing thread and/or a teacher bashing thread.

We now return to our regularly scheduled MeFi-bashes-everything-in-sight programming.
posted by raedyn at 12:57 PM on April 7, 2006

While I do believe it's possible that the school and/or the parents over-reacted without all the information, I just don't think this is an important story. Miscommunications and over-reactions happen every minute of every day all over the world. Why is this one newsworthy?

It's not.
posted by raedyn at 1:00 PM on April 7, 2006

Personally, I would think that "non-Americans" would be preferable in this case to both "foreigners" and "Canadian".

Isn't an American saying "foreigner" the same thing as saying "non-American?"
posted by magodesky at 1:01 PM on April 7, 2006

MeFi is a news site?
posted by hellphish at 1:01 PM on April 7, 2006

Or you could always say "people outside the US" or "people from other countries"?

I'm sorry if I sound like a jerk here, but seriously, is it not easy to see how jingoistic and plain wrong the word sounds? 'Foreigners' is a term that explicitly ostracises anyone not from the country in which it is used.
posted by stinkycheese at 1:09 PM on April 7, 2006

foreigner.
posted by exlotuseater at 1:10 PM on April 7, 2006

CAN WE PLEASE STOP THIS DERAIL?
posted by raedyn at 1:11 PM on April 7, 2006

thanks.
posted by raedyn at 1:11 PM on April 7, 2006

What I meant to say was Thank you 327.ca and raedyn and all the other cool Canadians.
posted by exlotuseater at 1:12 PM on April 7, 2006

*vomits*
posted by stinkycheese at 1:13 PM on April 7, 2006

magodesky : "Isn't an American saying 'foreigner' the same thing as saying 'non-American?'"

Same denotation, slightly different connotation, depending on the person.

raedyn : "I just don't think this is an important story."

It's a shame we're both married...
posted by Bugbread at 1:17 PM on April 7, 2006

"I'm sorry if I sound like a jerk here..."

Oh, I doubt that very much.

Foreigner.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 1:17 PM on April 7, 2006

This isn't Fark, is it? Because it sure smells that way all of a sudden.
posted by stinkycheese at 1:20 PM on April 7, 2006

I'm sorry if I sound like a jerk here, but...

"I'm sorry, but." Possibly my favorite combination of words.

is it not easy to see how jingoistic and plain wrong the word [foreigner] sounds?

Heh. Says the guy who also writes:

the USA takes the cake for this flavour of painfully stupid.

You're happy to sling your own shit, but damned if you ain't embarrassingly thin-skinned when you're on the receiving end. Really, the word "foreigners" rankles you that much? Grow a pair.

OK, I'm really going to go work now.

Any minute, now.
posted by cribcage at 1:20 PM on April 7, 2006

cribcage >>> "Despite being a patriotic American, it's difficult to get riled because my country is being insulted by a reactionary who just finished arguing that his country is more enlightened to the degree it permits sex between adults and teenagers."

Baby_Balrog >>> "'Despite being a patriotic American, it's difficult to get riled because my country is being insulted by a reactionary who just finished arguing that his country is more enlightened to the degree it permits sex between adults and teenagers.'

"Might also be useful to provide a link."

Oh for fuck's sake. Can we continue the ad hominems, oh pretty please can we? Reactionary? Where the flying fuck did you get that?

And again. For fuck's sake. Would you guys read the fucking thread, and fucking read what I was fucking writing?



Here we have it, folks. The fruits of the American educational system.

Fuck you, and fuck this thread.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 1:21 PM on April 7, 2006

Thanks for the laughs cribcage.
posted by stinkycheese at 1:22 PM on April 7, 2006

This isn't Fark, is it? Because it sure smells that way all of a sudden.

What, like...uh...stinky cheese?
posted by 327.ca at 1:22 PM on April 7, 2006

Die thread, die!
posted by 327.ca at 1:22 PM on April 7, 2006

327.ca : "Die thread, die!"

German, of course, for "The thread, the!"

dirtynumbangelboy : "Here we have it, folks. The fruits of the American educational system.

Fuck you, and fuck this thread."

You know, as an American, I've never been to fond of our educational system. I had fun, of course, but I certainly don't think our school system is very good. After seeing your contributions here, I guess I'll have to revise my image of the Canadian school system to be "about equal with the US".
posted by Bugbread at 1:26 PM on April 7, 2006

If you take all the words out of dnab's post that aren't a derivitive of fuck, you get:

"fuck's flying fuck fuck's fucking fucking fucking Fuck you, fuck."

*beatboxes*
posted by Baby_Balrog at 1:27 PM on April 7, 2006

Well, at least he's well-spoken.
posted by cribcage at 1:27 PM on April 7, 2006

First I tried flagging all the insulting off-topic bullshit.
I couldn't keep up.

Next I tried to point out how off-topic and insulting many were being.
I was ignored.

Then I hoped for people to come to their senses.
Instead, the escalated tensions.

Finally, all I can hope for is

[closethread]
posted by raedyn at 1:28 PM on April 7, 2006

After seeing your contributions here, I guess I'll have to revise my image of the Canadian school system to be "about equal with the US". - bugbread

Yeah, but he's from Toronto. You can't use them to judge all of us.

*flashes Canadian passport, recites some Chaucer, does a little calculus on the whiteboard, runs out to the backyard & discovers a new species of ant, runs a marathon, then holds the door open, says please & thank you, talks about the weather, then apologizes for taking so long*
posted by raedyn at 1:31 PM on April 7, 2006

I'm pretty sure there's a guy with a pistol standing behind raedyn, forcing her to keep refreshing this thread. Maybe someone should dial 911.
posted by cribcage at 1:32 PM on April 7, 2006

*belated remembers to chug a few strong beer*
posted by raedyn at 1:32 PM on April 7, 2006

How did you know, cribcage?
posted by raedyn at 1:34 PM on April 7, 2006

*flashes Canadian passport, recites some Chaucer, does a little calculus on the whiteboard, runs out to the backyard & discovers a new species of ant, runs a marathon, then holds the door open, says please & thank you, talks about the weather, then apologizes for taking so long*

raedyn wins.
posted by 327.ca at 1:37 PM on April 7, 2006

Remember to aim for the cracker guys.
posted by stinkycheese at 1:39 PM on April 7, 2006

stinkycheese : "Remember to aim for the cracker guys."

Oh, so now you have a problem with us crackers, too?
posted by Bugbread at 1:45 PM on April 7, 2006

I think that's some sort of Canadian hockey-player tradition reference. Or something.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 2:28 PM on April 7, 2006

Both of those little dykes should be beaten senseless!
posted by MaxVonCretin at 2:32 PM on April 7, 2006

"Okay, look, in retrospect, I probably should have meta'd drstein for his comment"

Well, you could have, but that would have been stupid. It was dirtynumbangelboy that tossed in the first derail with his asinine commentary about how schools in the US sucks and how glorious Canada is. I flagged it accordingly and replied with what I thought of the story: the media making hay with what little facts they really had.

At least I made a veiled attempt at staying on-topic, unlike the "US sucks! Canada r00lz!" camp, tossing their irrelevant commentary around.
posted by drstein at 2:33 PM on April 7, 2006

Part of the duty you owe the teacher for taking responsibility for your kids is to support them unequivicably. (emphasis added)

Support? Yes. Unequivacably? Rubbish. The world is not black and white. Teachers are not perfect; they make mistakes too.
posted by caddis at 3:00 PM on April 7, 2006

For anyone coming late to the thread, drstein's initial comment was:

dirtynumbangelboy: Please take your America-bashing elsewhere. This isn't the first time I've seen it.

Which kind of puts me in mind of Ari Fletcher's veiled threat that "people need to watch what they say and watch what they do". But maybe that's just me.

In any case, it was IMO far more a breach of MeFi etiquette than dirtynumbangelboy's comments which, after all, pertained to a situation going on in the US. We all agree on that, right? The thread is on an event which occured in the US.

Despite claims made here to the contrary, I don't see anyone here saying that GW Bush caused this girl to go hugging people or had any other connection to the events in question. The 'connection', if any, is the fact that, again, it happened in the US, and was covered by the US media.

My point was that to suggest - as drsein did - that the US, as a subject, is off-limits in a MeFi thread is ludicrous. Or, as drstein put it, "stupid". Esp. in this context.

And neither dirtynumbangelboy nor myself gave any fanboy endorsements of the Canadian school system BTW. In fact, we both qualified our comments in that regard, if you'd care to re-read.
posted by stinkycheese at 3:03 PM on April 7, 2006

I'm sorry. I'm not being intentionally obtuse. Please explain to my dumb, (apparently) undereducated ass why the geographic location of this event has anything to do with anything?

If this had happened in Canada do you think all of us backward merkin assholes would be pointing our fingers and shouting, "Look! Canada! You see? YOU SEE?!"

No, of course not. That would be silly.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 3:22 PM on April 7, 2006

Off-limits? No. Stupid? Maybe.

The people involved in this breath air. We all agree on that, right? The thread is on an event involving people who breath air. But making a big sidediscussion about how it's the fault of air-breathers would be dumb. Not off-limits, but dumb. Despite the fact that we all agree that, again, it involved people who breathed air.

The same could be said for any number of things. Maybe we should make big sidediscussions about how the problem is women. After all, both the hugger and huggee were female. The thread is on an event involving women.

Or maybe people whose names start with "S". This is a whole issue involving Sophie and Savannah. We, again, all agree about that. The thread is on an event which involves people whose first name starts with "S".

No, discussing women, or people whose names start with "S", or air-breathing is not off-limits. But making the focus of an article like this about one of those items, even though we all agree that they are, in fact, true, is kinda stupid.
posted by Bugbread at 3:24 PM on April 7, 2006

Are we still off topic? Okay, then here's a question: how many 5-year-olds could you hug to the point of unconsciousness before they did the same to you? Assume a gymnasium-sized area, and that the 5-year-olds have been trained for one full day in group tactics for hugging you unconscious. You have been trained for one hour in counter-hugging tactics. There is no protective padding for any of the huggers.
posted by jenovus at 3:35 PM on April 7, 2006

This is getting confusing. I thought we were blaming people whose middle names start with "W".
posted by 327.ca at 3:35 PM on April 7, 2006

whoops. breath -> breathe.
posted by Bugbread at 3:40 PM on April 7, 2006

All I'm trying to say here is that dirtynumbangelboy (or anyone) has every right to talk smack about the US in a thread here if he wants to. Particularly in a thread highlighting the American education system.

I have said other things here of course. I also feel that, yes, refering to other people as "foreigners" is symptomatic of the 'ugly American' cliche for instance, and it surprises me that that isn't obvious. I have other problems and grievances to do with politics and the US, sure - but the real simple point I'm trying to make is that drstein was out of line.

The American education system is a legitimate thing to talk about, if you are, after all, talking about something that happened within this system, and whose controversy centres around decisions made by people within that system.

I wouldn't talk about how the people involved in this decision were air-breathing women whose first names began with "S" because none of those variables impacts, or has relevance to, the situation under discussion.

Children hug each other, I'm sure, in schoolyards the world round. Whether that's perceived as a problem, and how it might be handled if it was, may or may not be have relation with the respective societies involved - I for one believe they're inextricably tied, and that it's fair comment.
posted by stinkycheese at 4:04 PM on April 7, 2006

stinkycheese : "Particularly in a thread highlighting the American education system."

Is this (or, rather, at the point where the comment was made, was this) a thread highlighting the American education system, though?

stinkycheese : "I also feel that, yes, refering to other people as 'foreigners' is symptomatic of the "ugly American" cliche for instance"

I know what you're saying, but I refer to people as "foreigners" all the time, to refer to people who aren't Japanese. Sometimes foreigner means "furner", but sometimes it just means "person of nationality other than the country I live in". (And what do we say of Spaniards who say "extranjero" - the "ugly Spaniard" cliche?)

stinkycheese : "I wouldn't talk about how the people involved in this decision were air-breathing women whose first names began with 'S' because none of those variables impacts, or has relevance to, the situation under discussion. "

And I think, here, is the key. A lot of people in this thread are under the impression (right or wrong) that the American education system, as a whole, does not impact, or have relevance to, the situation under discussion, even though this happened at a school, any more than the letter "S" has impact or relevance, even though both kids had names starting with "S". Not everything that happens at an individual school relates to the whole school system, any more than everything which happens at a workplace relates to the whole business system, everything that happens at a concert has to do with the entertainment world, or what happens on a plane has to do with the whole transportation system.
posted by Bugbread at 4:26 PM on April 7, 2006

Obviosly non of read the physical description of Savannah. She's like 230lbs and 23% cyborg.

"Nnnaaaa-uh! Savannah CRUSH!"

"Savannah like puppy! Puppy soft! Pet puppy! Pet pu... why puppy no move!?? MOVE PUPPY! MOVE"
posted by tkchrist at 5:06 PM on April 7, 2006

In my day both of those kids would have had their pants taken down and their rosy, naked arses spanked. Never did me any harm. Oh matron, matron, I miss your starched skirt and oh-so-firm hand.
posted by Decani at 6:43 PM on April 7, 2006

what should an American call people outside the U.S.?
posted by magodesky at 3:43 PM EST on April 7 [!]

Person of Non American Origin?
AntiUsaian
External Ethnic
Outside American
People of Different Countriness
Those Whose Leader Is Other Than Bush
World (other than USA) Citizen
Resident of Somewhere Else Not Here
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:30 PM on April 7, 2006

I've worked in Maynard for a few years, so if anyone would like me to make any sweeping generalizations about the town, just ask a question.
posted by VulcanMike at 9:45 PM on April 7, 2006

I like "People of Different Countriness" or maybe "Outside American," assuming they aren't Canadian or Brazilian.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 8:45 AM on April 8, 2006

Hell of a thread, everyone. Good work. Get some sleep; we've got another show tomorrow.
posted by cortex at 11:53 AM on April 8, 2006

*wakes up on front lawn*
*grabs another beer and a hockey stick, wanders off in search of some shinny*
posted by raedyn at 5:24 PM on April 8, 2006