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The needle and the damage done
April 16, 2006 7:26 AM Subscribe

"Livin' with war everyday": Alicia Morgan was one of about 100 singers summoned Wednesday to a secret recording session in Los Angeles. "When the lyrics we were supposed to sing flashed on the giant screen," she writes on her blog, "a roar went up from the choir. I'm not going to give the whole thing away, but the first line of one of the songs was "Let's impeach the President for lyin'!" Get ready: Neil Young's got a new album coming.
posted by docgonzo (191 comments total)

yet another aging rock star desperate for relevance leaps aboard a political bandwagon. film at eleven.
posted by quonsar at 7:36 AM on April 16, 2006

Neil Young is brilliant, but, at last check, Canadian. so STFU, Neil.
posted by ParisParamus at 7:42 AM on April 16, 2006

I hesitate to call Neil Young "desperate for relevance." He is an ace songwriter who does his thing with dignity. Albeit a drug addled burnout dignity, but dignity nonetheless.
posted by sourwookie at 7:42 AM on April 16, 2006

Or, shut up, and sing something else.
posted by ParisParamus at 7:43 AM on April 16, 2006

'Cause this is my United States of SHUT UP!
posted by rxrfrx at 7:50 AM on April 16, 2006

Heh, the trolls are up early! You guys must be busy these days -- so many dykes to plug with your typing fingers before the Flood.

Neil has lived in California for, oh, close to 40 years. And he has rarely been irrelevant -- well, maybe during the "Everybody's Rockin"/"Life"/"Landing on Water" period. But Neil has made many great records since then.

This is just standard operating procedure for Neil. He wrote and recorded "Ohio" in a day, and released it the same week as the Kent State killings in a sleeve with the Constitution pierced with bullet holes. He didn't have far to quote, jump, unquote, onto this bandwagon. He lives there.
posted by digaman at 7:51 AM on April 16, 2006

"Why do I keep FUCKIN' UP?"
- Neil Young

It's possible--even increasingly probable--that W does deserve impeachment. Hearing it from ol' Neil carries about the same weight as hearing it from the Iron Chef, or Yosemite Sam. Entertainers in general have roughly the same intellectual weight as manicurists.

posted by jfuller at 7:51 AM on April 16, 2006

drug addled burnout

Neil is hardly burned out, as you'd know if you ever spoke to the man. He's just very weird and very smart -- heavy drugs are not his thing. Long may he wave.
posted by digaman at 7:53 AM on April 16, 2006

Metafilter: so many dykes to plug with your typing fingers
posted by mr_crash_davis at 7:54 AM on April 16, 2006

Entertainers in general have roughly the same intellectual weight as manicurists.

That's right -- and Dylan had the same weight as the Strawberry Alarm Clock. How simple and clear the world seems to be when you think in huge abstractions. So many people whose opinions can be instantly dismissed!
posted by digaman at 7:57 AM on April 16, 2006

> Neil has lived in California for, oh, close to 40 years.

Heh heh. Yep, although he is Canadian and not American he has indeed made it abundantly clear which country he would rather live in, the dumb hypocrite. Like all those Americans who shouted "I'm moving to Canada" after the last election, and then remained on their butts right where they were (where they may be seen to this day.) The Human Wave That Wasn't.
posted by jfuller at 8:03 AM on April 16, 2006

dumb hypocrite

Not. By the way, I went to a booksigning for Greendale here in San Francisco. I didn't particularly like the album or the book, but Neil's son Ben was sitting right next to him at this event -- one of Neil's two kids (of different mothers) born with cerebral palsy. Neil's sweet devotion to Ben was deeply touching, and he's been doing yearly benefits that have kept the Bridge School afloat for some time now. He's always put his art, and his heart, on the line. He simply doesn't care if every snide hipster in town thinks he's still cool. He's just cool.
posted by digaman at 8:06 AM on April 16, 2006

Yep, although he is Canadian and not American he has indeed made it abundantly clear which country he would rather live in, the dumb hypocrite.

So, let me get this straight: If you live in the US, you have to support the President?
posted by docgonzo at 8:07 AM on April 16, 2006

Don't sing that song! The enemy will know what we're doing.
posted by digaman at 8:09 AM on April 16, 2006

A bunch of haters, this is. :)

I'm very interested in hearing what Neil has to say. I've got my credit card all warmed up for when this CD comes out. This is the man who wrote Ohio and American Dream. The outcome of the Iraq war affects everyone on the planet. Bush was just talking about starting a nuclear war! Jesus H. Christ!

And while we're all waiting for Neil's new CD, let's all take a listen to a song on Pink's new album. The song's called "Dear Mr. President." I love this song. No shit.

You boys can listen to the full song right here.

"...you've come a long way from whiskey and cocaine..." ~ Pink (Dear Mr. President)
posted by bim at 8:10 AM on April 16, 2006

This will go nicely with Bruce Springsteen's new cd of Pete Seeger favorites. (*throws meat to the pathetic, yet hard working trolls)
posted by R. Mutt at 8:10 AM on April 16, 2006

All these retired generals desperate for relevance! Oh sorry, this is the dismissing-the-town-criers thread, not the dismissing-the-old-warriors thread. So busy these days.
posted by digaman at 8:12 AM on April 16, 2006

And I'm a little concerned about the whole plugging dykes with fingers thingie!!!! Keep your fingers to yourself, please. :>
posted by bim at 8:13 AM on April 16, 2006

"...you've come a long way from whiskey and cocaine..."

I so wish. Actually, Bush hasn't -- he's just addicted to being a "war president" now, and when one war doesn't work out, he moves on to the next. Tehran, here we come.
posted by digaman at 8:16 AM on April 16, 2006

Apparently, you're not allowed to criticize if you're not American. You're also not allowed to criticize if you ARE American... "if it's so bad, why don't you move to China!"

Possibly, perhaps, you may be allowed to criticize if you're an American who successfuly escapes the country. I suspect, however, that the next verse in the refrain will be, 'Yeah, well, you were too cowardly to stay and try to fix things. You have no right to criticise!"

I've never bought a Neil Young record in my life, but I might pick this one up just for the hell of it.
posted by Malor at 8:17 AM on April 16, 2006

This notes for you, Neil.
posted by buzzman at 8:21 AM on April 16, 2006

Neil Young is brilliant, but, at last check, Canadian. so STFU, Neil.

Amazing how masterfully you prove how much more of an American he is than you with that comment, PeePee.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 8:25 AM on April 16, 2006

I never knew a man
could tell so many lies
He had a different story
for every set of eyes.
How can he remember
who he's talkin' to?
'Cause I know it ain't me,
and I hope it isn't you.

Neil's "Ambulance Blues," 1974.

Some things never change.
posted by digaman at 8:25 AM on April 16, 2006

No. If you are too much a coward hypocrite to become a US citizen, despite reaping all the benefits of being here, then STFU about US politics.
posted by ParisParamus at 8:28 AM on April 16, 2006

I'm having trouble reconciling this with that horrible "Let's Roll" song Young did. I thought he was pretty much on the Charlie Daniels side of things now?
posted by Mid at 8:29 AM on April 16, 2006

> That's right -- and Dylan had the same weight as the Strawberry Alarm Clock.
> How simple and clear the world seems to be when you think in huge abstractions. So many
> people whose opinions can be instantly dismissed!

Deservedly. Incidentally, I do pay considerable attention to the opinions of my manicurist, a Korean woman who worked very hard for a long time to get to the US, and then took the trouble to become a citizen. She does indeed say the prospect of an Iranian invasion terrifies her, but also that the prospect of the lunatic President Ahmadinejad with the bomb, and rockets to throw it around with, is equally terrifying, and that doing nothing and letting it happen is mad, and that we have seen from the European efforts that diplomacy is the same as doing nothing. In other words, she sees the complex difficulty of the situation. Having lived within range of Kim Jong-Il's nukes gives one a mental clarity far beyond digaman's rock'n'roll-level imagination--or Neil's.

posted by jfuller at 8:30 AM on April 16, 2006

"Ambulance Blues," 1974

On the Beach, about the implosion of another American president and other fin de siecle concerns, is one of Neil's best albums, by the way -- and it was out of print until a couple of years ago. It's dark, unsentimental, brilliant, and more relevant than ever. Check it out.
posted by digaman at 8:30 AM on April 16, 2006

> I'm having trouble reconciling this with that horrible "Let's Roll" song Young did. I
> thought he was pretty much on the Charlie Daniels side of things now?

The essence of entertainer politics. Where's the crowd goin'? Gotta get out in front of 'em!

posted by jfuller at 8:32 AM on April 16, 2006

Oh I get it PP -- this week's talking point about illegal immigrants! Sorry to get in the way. Do they just email you this stuff, or you think of it yourself?
posted by digaman at 8:32 AM on April 16, 2006

I want a free T-shirt with my purchase.
posted by buzzman at 8:32 AM on April 16, 2006

That's right, jfuller. I can tell you know really a lot about the history of, oh, say, folk music for instance. I'll have to come over someday for your presentation on Russian poets, Eastern European novelists, Woody Guthrie, Odetta, and the other shallow creatures of Hollywood.
posted by digaman at 8:36 AM on April 16, 2006

So PP, if Neil can't criticize the US because he was born in Canada, does that mean that you have no right to criticize France, Iran, Russia or China? 'Cause, I seem to remember that you have lots of opinions on other countries.
posted by octothorpe at 8:38 AM on April 16, 2006

Where's the crowd goin'? Gotta get out in front of 'em!

There is no contradiction between 'Let's roll' and this new work. Is it so hard to reconcile the impulses of wanting to do something about the fundamentalist hatemongers behind 9/11 and not standing for a President who has failed, has lied, had killed? Or are you too wedded to W's talking points to know the difference?
posted by docgonzo at 8:38 AM on April 16, 2006

If you are too much a coward hypocrite to become a US citizen, despite reaping all the benefits of being here, then STFU about US politics.

I bet that a lot of folks in Iraq are thinking the same thing right about now, PP. The U.S. shouldn't be involved in Iraqi politics (the newly "established" democracy being a farce, for starters). Most Iraqis probably want the U.S. to STFU and GTFO -- in other words, GET THE F*%K OUT!

And since its Easter/Passover/Whatever, he's our holiday poem.

1973

GREAT!...NOW

who's going to liberate us from out liberators?

~Nicanor Parra (Antipoems)
posted by bim at 8:39 AM on April 16, 2006

Who will we listen to once the right is done discrediting everyone in the world?
posted by srboisvert at 8:43 AM on April 16, 2006

Neil sang eloquently about the poignant, hopeless feelings that the last 35% still hold for Bush. His early work is very illuminating here.
posted by telstar at 8:45 AM on April 16, 2006

> Russian poets, Eastern European novelists

Mmmmm? Baratynsky and Stanislav Lem figure largely in the history of folk music? Why not throw in some Nobel physicists? You're floundering, d-man. But needlessly, the water's only six inches deep here. Just stand up, like me.

Hey Neil, shut up and play Cinnamon Girl or we'll jerk your green card.

posted by jfuller at 8:47 AM on April 16, 2006

Another account of Neil's new record here.

(btw, are we to believe that jfuller actually has a manicurist, or is he just deranged?)
posted by Zetetics at 8:49 AM on April 16, 2006

1980 to 1982
With the Rust releases still earning praise, Hawks & Doves, another grab bag of old and new songs is quietly released. Part of the ambivalence towards it also stems from Young’s public endorsement of Ronald Reagan’s presidential bid.

In a later interview, he acknowleged that he "suffered greatly" for that.

He's always been all over the map. Some of his music has sounded awful at first listening, only to turn out to be classic (Tonight's the Night) and some has stayed awful (re*ac*tor).

I read a freeper post somewhere, "claiming" him, which is silly because he's written so much, music, so many lyrics, and they have been all over the map musically and politically, depending on where he is at the moment.

A true original.
posted by Danf at 8:50 AM on April 16, 2006

Hey Neil, shut up and play Cinnamon Girl or we'll jerk your green card.

How about Southern Man? That might even be a theme song of sorts for you.
posted by boaz at 8:56 AM on April 16, 2006

I saw Neil Young a few years back and Duck Du....oh. Never mind.
posted by stevil at 8:56 AM on April 16, 2006

Good for Neil Young. I can see jfuller throttling a young boy, screaming "What do you know about how the emporer should dress, you're just a fuckin' kid!" Aside from his "some-of-my-best-friends-are" manicurist anecdote, there's no messenger is pure enough to carry an anti-establishment message for him.

And since digaman mentions folk music, here's the chorus to one folk song that seems particularly relevant: John Prine's "Your Flag Decal Won't Get You Into Heaven Anymore"
But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
They're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reason's for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.

posted by boo_radley at 8:59 AM on April 16, 2006

We're not in IRAN yet, PP. We're talking about Iraq. And you're assuming that we get to export our values (democracy) to other places. We're currently looking at the failure of that notion in Iraq.
posted by bim at 8:59 AM on April 16, 2006

. Incidentally, I do pay considerable attention to the opinions of my manicurist

OMFG Ann Coulter has joined metafilter!

posted by fourcheesemac at 9:00 AM on April 16, 2006

I've never seen her look better! Welcome, Ann.
posted by bim at 9:11 AM on April 16, 2006

bim, the clown wants you to sniff his flower. Just sit back and laugh at the clown.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 9:12 AM on April 16, 2006

A drunk walks into a bar. It's 8am. He asks for "the usual" -- a triple bourbon with an Olde English back.

The bartender tells the guy, "Hey man, I know you're a regular, but maybe you're drinking a bit much these days?"

The guy says, "Fuck you! You're a bartender! You make money from guys like me! Just do your job and shut the fuck up -- that's just offensive."

The guy's wife walks in. "Please come home, darling," she tells the guy. "You've been drinking too much these days."

"Fuck you!" the guy replies. "You're no stranger to a martini yourself, and besides, you were a drunken slut when I dragged you out of the gutter -- that's just offensive."

Then the guy's doctor walks in. "You know, you really ought to watch your drinking," he tells the guy.

"Fuck you!" the guy snaps back. "You're my doctor, not my nanny, and you could lose a few pounds yourself. What are you following me around? That's just offensive!"

Then the guy's kids walk in. "Daddy, please come home. And stop hitting us. It makes us sad when you drink."

"Fuck you!" the guy says. "You're just kids -- you're naive! What do you know! That's just offensive!"

Then the guy's priest comes in the door. "You know, son, you oughta watch the drink," he tells the guy.

"Fuck you!" he says. "You're Irish! You guys are all drunks yourselves! And keep your hands off me, you goddamned pedophile! That's just offensive!"

Then the guy's neighbors walk in...

posted by digaman at 9:13 AM on April 16, 2006

bim, the clown wants you to sniff his flower. Just sit back and laugh at the clown.

Got a day pass from the hospital, eh?

I'm already laughing at a clown.
posted by bim at 9:19 AM on April 16, 2006

(Psst... That's who I was referring to, I meant don't feed the troll, dude)
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 9:21 AM on April 16, 2006

I get your meaning now, XQU. Sometimes it's hard to tell the players without a scorecard! :)
posted by bim at 9:27 AM on April 16, 2006

If WMDs are not found in Iraq, and in large quantity (or at least objective evidence that they were destroyed), then, in terms of American politics, the war was a sham, and the President should be indicted.
posted by ParisParamus at 11:57 AM EST on April 29 [2003!]

posted by NortonDC at 9:29 AM on April 16, 2006

> Aside from his "some-of-my-best-friends-are" manicurist anecdote

Read the thread much? Having, way back here, compared the intellectual weight of entertainers to the intellectual weight of manicurists, it struck me as relevant that I know an actual manicurist with the intellectual weight to shade a proven Hollywood-wannabe like Neil--let alone all the EEEEEE! IT'S NEEEEEEL! groupies in this thread, digaman and the rest. Who are, of course, too cotton-brained to be embarassed by the contrast.

> (Psst... That's who I was referring to, I meant don't feed the troll, dude)

You may be referring to me, or maybe to Paris. Both of us have been posting regularly to this board quite a bit longer than XQUZYPHYR has. So far from trolling, we are doing our sincere bit to move the discussion in the correct, namely our, direction. You can't handle differing opinions? Go sit in the corner and work on tolerance.

posted by jfuller at 9:30 AM on April 16, 2006

You can't handle differing opinions? Go sit in the corner and work on tolerance.

What if I was Canadian?
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 9:31 AM on April 16, 2006

cotton-brained

And yet, while you keep offering bile and pompous generalities, I keep offering actual information about Neil's life and history. But hey, don't let anything concrete get in the way of your sneering tirades.
posted by digaman at 9:33 AM on April 16, 2006

How does anyone on here know that he's not a U.S. citizen? I'd imagine that he at least has dual citizenship by now.
posted by raysmj at 9:34 AM on April 16, 2006

Metafilter: moving the discussion in the correct, namely our, direction.
posted by chrominance at 9:37 AM on April 16, 2006

a proven Hollywood-wannabe like Neil
Case in point. In the early 70s, Neil released an album called Harvest. A huge commercial hit -- "Needle and the Damage Done" and "Old Man" are still played all the time on the radio (and the title of the former is the title of this thread). So what did Neil follow that album up with? Tonight's the Night, a very dark, nearly frighteningly honest, deeply non-commercial album that was critically slagged and didn't have a prayer of launching a hit. Now it's considered a masterpiece of pre-punk, stripped down, transcendent garage rock and roll -- but that the time, nearly everyone around Neil, including some of his infamously acronymic collaborators, thought it was career suicide.

Neil's always done his own thing, critics and popular opinion bedamned -- sometimes to his own peril. So this "proven" stuff is quite the opposite of the truth. But I'm sure it feels really righteous to say.
posted by digaman at 9:40 AM on April 16, 2006

I can't wait to hear this. Yay Neil!
posted by stinkycheese at 9:46 AM on April 16, 2006

OK. He talks about getting dual citizenship, says he wants to vote at least (and thinks he has a right to as much as anyone, after all this time), but doesn't want to hurt Canada and wouldn't want to have to give up his Canadian citizenship to become American. Also, he'd like to maybe retire around Banff or something. Totally understandable!
posted by raysmj at 9:48 AM on April 16, 2006

This should be interesting. Young's inability to give a shit about what anyone thinks about him is probably what endears him to me most.
Not that he'd care, heh.

... moving the discussion in the correct, namely our, direction.
...You can't handle differing opinions?
-jfuller, in the same dang post

Sheesh, make up your melon, sonny.
Either you're right, or you are just putting in your entirely subjective two cents. MeFi is indeed the best of the web, but has some of the most incompetent, laziest, and self-contradictory trolls. Amateur hour.
Lovely cuticles, though.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:53 AM on April 16, 2006

Hasn't anyone noticed the headline in the Editor & Publisher story "Neil Young, Son of Famed Reporter, "Records Impeach the President" Song.

Good for Neil Young. I always look forward to his records, and yes, Bush should be impeached for lying.
posted by marxchivist at 9:56 AM on April 16, 2006

For a foreigner, Neil Young's "Rockin' in the free world" was as good an indictment of the harshness of the Reagan era as anything written at the time. "A kinder, genter machine gun hand" pretty much sums up what the dynasty of politics known as Republicanism is all about.

Here's hoping Neil Young can wake something in the spirit of the spiritless youth of America.
posted by three blind mice at 9:56 AM on April 16, 2006

If he lives in the US but only votes in Canada (or doesn't vote at all), he gets the STFU. If he he votes in both places, he's cool and get into the P2 Club.
posted by ParisParamus at 9:57 AM on April 16, 2006

(gets)
posted by ParisParamus at 9:57 AM on April 16, 2006

Still, though, "Let's Roll" sucked. For the jingoism, really. I mean, isn't this guy supposed to be an outsider? A rebel?

It's like if Lou Reed started singing songs about how great firemen are. I mean, yeah, firemen are great, but that isn't exactly a sentiment that's hard to come by in the rest of pop culture.
posted by Mid at 9:58 AM on April 16, 2006

... get into the P2 Club.

"One member since 2001 and growing daily!"
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:59 AM on April 16, 2006

I mean, geez:

Let's roll for freedom
Let's roll for love
Goin' after Satan
On the wings of a dove
Let's roll for justice
Let's roll for truth
Let's not let our children grow up
Fearful in their youth

Sounds like Shania Twain or some other "new country" horror show.
posted by Mid at 10:01 AM on April 16, 2006

The P2 Club is intimate, but not that small! LOL
posted by ParisParamus at 10:02 AM on April 16, 2006

we are stardust, we are golden. LOL!
posted by quonsar at 10:07 AM on April 16, 2006

Ok, totally unrelated except in the fact that the page was linked to: What's wrong with this headline?
posted by smallerdemon at 10:44 AM on April 16, 2006

If he lives in the US but only votes in Canada (or doesn't vote at all), he gets the STFU. If he he votes in both places, he's cool and get into the P2 Club.

Interestingly, he's already answered that charge:

"I have an American family: three American children and an American wife. I pay taxes. I do everything other citizens do, except I'm not allowed to serve on juries, vote or serve in the military. That gives me a right to say whatever I feel like saying."

I'm always galled when Americans tell anyone that they have no right to speak. If the message is worth a damn, it could come from a Chinese wart hog and we should welcome it.
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:46 AM on April 16, 2006

The P2 Club is intimate, but not that small! LOL

Are you going to release the names of your new puppets? We promise we will consider it strategic leak in the interest of club safety.
posted by srboisvert at 10:55 AM on April 16, 2006

Is there anyone who really expected him not to sing about the president? I mean, I'm all for every pro-impeachment voice we can get, but I don't think it'll change anybody's mind.
posted by fungible at 10:57 AM on April 16, 2006

Responding to your "read the thread much?" sneer, jfuller, I went back and reread everything. I think what you're really saying is

I do not like Neil Young.
Part of my dislike stems from Neil living in Americal while not holding American citizenship.
Neil Young's opinion is marginalized or totally irrelevant in my mind.
I have a manicurist who is Korean.
I respect my Korean manicurist's opinion more than the opinion of Neil Young.

posted by boo_radley at 10:57 AM on April 16, 2006

Can we just ignore PP already? Please?

And who doesn't like at least some Neil Young? There has to be at least something in his long and varied career for everyone. I'm hoping his new record can produce a single as powerful as Ohio.

And here's to hoping that Nardwuar can finally tell Neil Young to keep on rockin in the free world.
posted by [expletive deleted] at 10:58 AM on April 16, 2006

I wanna live
with a fish in my pants
I could be happy
the rest of my life
With a fish in my pants.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 11:00 AM on April 16, 2006

Metafilter: 'Cause this is my United States of SHUT UP!

There is no contradiction between 'Let's roll' and this new work

"No time for indecision
We got to make a move
I hope that we're forgiven
For what we gotta do"

"Let's impeach the president for lyin'!"

I agree there is no contradiction, but not in the sense you meant it. But I'm not American or Canadian, or a Neil Young fan for that matter, so I'll STFU!
posted by funambulist at 11:02 AM on April 16, 2006

ParisParamus writes "If he lives in the US but only votes in Canada (or doesn't vote at all), he gets the STFU. If he he votes in both places, he's cool and get into the P2 Club."

If WMDs are not found in Iraq, and in large quantity (or at least objective evidence that they were destroyed), then, in terms of American politics, the war was a sham, and the President should be indicted.

But let's wait a bit before concluding this, and not have that conclusion drawn by the paranoid, cultic Left. Much of the premise of WMDs is their portability/stealthyness.
posted by ParisParamus at 11:57 AM EST on April 29 [!]

Are you ever going to respond to that, or is it just too damned incovenient for you?.

Astro Zombie writes "I'm always galled when Americans tell anyone that they have no right to speak."

Me too. You guys feel the right to criticize the whole damned world. What makes you exempt?
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 11:04 AM on April 16, 2006

The Dixie Chicks aren't ready to make nice, either, apparently, and I think they're damn brave considering their demographic. Maybe they'll play the next Bridge benefit.
posted by tula at 11:05 AM on April 16, 2006

I agree--one's citizenship should not affect one's ability to speak about matters of tremendous international importance (and, yes, nearly everything the US does has big, rippling effects everywhere).

I'm also baffled by the knee-jerk dismissal of any artist who dares to...GASP...have a perspective on the world he or she shares via art, as if they're "unqualified" to have/share opinions on these things, being mere "entertainers"*.

What qualified GW to be president? Or Governor of Texas, for that matter? He's a fucking BUSINESSMAN, not a philosopher, or historian, or public policy expert, or etc. etc. In fact, most politicians have nothing approaching "qualifications" for being in office--the Congress is full of people who moved from one vocation into public office.

And that's sort of the point: a fellow citizen steps up to serve. Just like the flip side: a democracy only works if those ordinary people living as part of it do our part and hold those running it accountable.

So an artist should be able to speak out as much as anyone, be they factory worker, greiving parent, teacher, scholar, manicurist, etc. Perhaps moreso, since artists are supposed to be able to express things elegantly and effectively. It's what they, um, do.

*Not to get bogged down in semantic tangents, but there is a big difference between an entertainer and an artist. I leave it to you to ferret those self-evident differences out.
posted by LooseFilter at 11:08 AM on April 16, 2006

Does this mean we can blow off Christopher Hitchens as an foreigner who dares to comment on American politics?

Perhaps one of my deep frustrations with popular music these days is the way it's become so irrelevant and apolitical. Popular music has throughout history included political commentary, even when the primary venues were music halls and taverns. ("Yankee Doodle anyone?") The radio just seems so impoverished compared to the 80s.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 11:16 AM on April 16, 2006

No. If you are too much a coward hypocrite to become a US citizen, despite reaping all the benefits of being here, then STFU about US politics.
posted by ParisParamus

Paris, he became an American citizen decades ago, famously voting for Reagan in 1980.
posted by jokeefe at 11:17 AM on April 16, 2006

tula: The Dixie Chicks aren't ready to make nice, either, apparently, and I think they're damn brave considering their demographic. Maybe they'll play the next Bridge benefit.

Actually, I think the primary backlash against the Dixie Chicks comes from the industry middle-men who have always insisted on controlling the image of the whole genre.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 11:20 AM on April 16, 2006

Ah, okay, I stand corrected after reading further through the thread. Nevermind.
posted by jokeefe at 11:20 AM on April 16, 2006

I like Neil Young, and good on him for writing an album about something that really matters.

You gotta love Neil Young. He's the only guy in Rock n' Roll who's not afraid to piss off both his fans and his record company. Well, the only one to get away with it, anyway. I would say that the body of his work is very strong, if you can forgive his synth efforts of the 80s.
posted by Afroblanco at 11:23 AM on April 16, 2006

I recently saw Young's new concert film Heart of Gold, and enjoyed it immensely. Young recently had surgery for an aneurysm, and the raw, minimal honesty of songs like Falling off the Face of the Earth and This Old Guitar is difficult to understand unless you've been there, so it flies over the heads of many. He is not at all desperate for relevance. He's way ahead of that. Way ahead.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 11:34 AM on April 16, 2006

He's the only guy in Rock n' Roll who's not afraid to piss off both his fans and his record company. Well, the only one to get away with it, anyway.

Uh.... ? ?
posted by docgonzo at 11:35 AM on April 16, 2006

Paris and quonsar, I enjoy your participation and irreverence on MetaFilter, but if either of you realized the degree to which your judgements of others are self-portraits, you would be more circumspect.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 11:42 AM on April 16, 2006

Deservedly. Incidentally, I do pay considerable attention to the opinions of my manicurist, a Korean woman who worked very hard for a long time to get to the US, and then took the trouble to become a citizen. She does indeed say the prospect of an Iranian invasion terrifies her, but also that the prospect of the lunatic President Ahmadinejad with the bomb, and rockets to throw it around with, is equally terrifying, and that doing nothing and letting it happen is mad, and that we have seen from the European efforts that diplomacy is the same as doing nothing. In other words, she sees the complex difficulty of the situation. Having lived within range of Kim Jong-Il's nukes gives one a mental clarity far beyond digaman's rock'n'roll-level imagination--or Neil's.

I think your manicurist's grasp on the situation in Iran is shaky. Among other things, Iran may be as far as te, and certainly no sooner than three, years away from actually having the bomb. Invading Iran this year or next, especially with a "tacitical nuclear strike" as (according to Seymour Hersh) the administration is considering, is jumping the gun in a very serious, and potentially very costly way. Iran is almost entirely made up of Shia Muslims, whose own particular brand of Islam relies very heavily on tropes of martyrdom and oppression (read Shariati for more), and as long as we play the bad guy, it gives Ahmadinejad and, more importantly, Khamenei, fuel for their bluster.

In any event, it's been widely reported that Khamenei has issued a fatwa against nuclear weapons, which leaves a doubt as to whether or not Ahmadinejad will back up his threats. Added to this is an always-present undercurrent of unrest in Iran, and the fact that as crazy as Ahmadinejad might appear, he's not stupid.

Now, I've never lived in the range of Kim Jong-Il's nukes, so my opinion probably isn't worth much, not having that "mental clarity" that Koreans seem to have. I'll just have to settle for my "rock 'n' roll-level" imagination, I guess.
posted by maxreax at 11:43 AM on April 16, 2006

a musician has an opinion! what an idiot!
posted by mcsweetie at 11:46 AM on April 16, 2006

i'm a little worried that he's going to confuse political opinion with good art

quonsar - he's way past the point where he has to be concerned with relevance ... 40 years in the music business speaks for itself

pp - you wouldn't say it to gordon sinclair, would you?
posted by pyramid termite at 11:54 AM on April 16, 2006

Does this mean we can blow off Christopher Hitchens as an foreigner who dares to comment on American politics?

Of course not, because with his praise for the President he has become American honoris causa. That's how it works! If you don't like it, you can go live in China!
posted by funambulist at 12:00 PM on April 16, 2006

For What It's Worth
posted by taosbat at 12:01 PM on April 16, 2006

Neil Young is brilliant, but, at last check, Canadian. so STFU, Neil.

Because Americans never, ever, EVER comment on the political affairs of other nations.

It would be impolite.
posted by verb at 12:02 PM on April 16, 2006

(As an American leftie, I ask myself--why impeach the chimp? He's sinking like a rock with no hope for Iraq in sight. Impeachment would possibly be the only thing that could improve his legacy. Cynical strategery I realize, but c'mon. How about "Vote Dem in November 2006 and Organize, Organize, Organize for 2008" or something? Not as catchy I guess.

Neil's daughter goes to my college. Apparently she's very nice and quite flakey, like her dad.)
posted by bardic at 12:09 PM on April 16, 2006

aw cool, a flame-thread.
posted by ninjew at 12:12 PM on April 16, 2006

Yes, our artists are not doing their job unless they stick to "Sunshine Lollipops and Rainbows" while bombs fall.
posted by dreamsign at 12:19 PM on April 16, 2006

I second w-g-p's recommendation of Heart of Gold. It's directed by Jonathan Demme, whose Stop Making Sense is one of the best concert movies ever. The quiet dignity and grace of Heart of Gold was a revelation. I'm very much looking forward to hearing this new album.

But oh wait, as a German living in America, am I qualified to have an opinion on a Canadian musician? I'm having trouble keeping up with who's allowed to comment on what in the land of the free.
posted by muckster at 12:22 PM on April 16, 2006

America: STFU Can00bians!
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:35 PM on April 16, 2006

Docgonzo, consider also, especially.
posted by kimota at 12:56 PM on April 16, 2006

No, because I don't live in Iran, and Iran is not a democracy. This is like someone not voting complaining about things, only worse, because NY wasn't born here. Its harvesting the benefits without accepting the responsibilities. It's just offensive.

Iran is a democracy, or at least that Abajababad guy right-wingers people keep bitching about was properly elected.

And also France is definitely a democracy.

Anyway, just so I get this straight: It's ok to complain about a country if it's not a democracy, but if is a democracy, then it's only OK if you're a citizen? What would be the point of becoming a US citizen if you're Canadian anyway? So you can commit felonies without getting booted out?
posted by delmoi at 12:59 PM on April 16, 2006

Yes -- better than my examples.
posted by docgonzo at 1:00 PM on April 16, 2006

docgonzo and kimota, what about this album and this album? And besides, when did the Grateful Dead ever do anything to piss off their fans?

just trying to move things in the correct direction.
posted by box at 1:23 PM on April 16, 2006

box: just recently
posted by muckster at 1:28 PM on April 16, 2006

No. It's hypocrtical to hand out in a country for a long time, but not step up to the civic plate and become a citizen and vote (in this case, presumedly Bush out of office).
posted by ParisParamus at 1:30 PM on April 16, 2006

Hey Paris, you still haven't responded to your statement of 2003.

When are you going to have the courage of your convictions?
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 1:37 PM on April 16, 2006

muckster, docgonzo ... there has been no grateful dead since jerry died
posted by pyramid termite at 1:38 PM on April 16, 2006

Or, shut up, and sing something else.
posted by ParisParamus at 7:43 AM PST on April 16 [!]

Getting other people's taxes done putting you on edge?
posted by rough ashlar at 1:38 PM on April 16, 2006

>>You guys feel the right to criticize the whole damned world. What makes you exempt?

Its called influence. When the rest of the world stops emulating the US then things might be differnent. In the meantime keep worshipping our celebrities (neil young included) and the culture we export and we will continue to have influence. When the rest of the world gets over its "america addiction" then being told to shut up or how to act by celebrities and elites will seem much more silly than it already is.
posted by skallas at 1:46 PM on April 16, 2006

yeah, I'm kind of wondering when we hear Paris respond to the whole WMD thing- it gets mentioned every time he opens his trap, but he's never actually responded to it. Why not?
posted by hincandenza at 1:47 PM on April 16, 2006

Hey Paris, you still haven't responded to your statement of 2003.

When are you going to have the courage of your convictions?
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 1:37 PM PST on April 16 [!]

If he had courage to employ with actual convictions, I'm sure he'd be all over taking actual action. Your question has been asked for years now, and every tax season he dissapears, only to come back a-typing after tax season.

A change in the government and its tax system would mean an end to his gravy train, so why would he actually take action?
posted by rough ashlar at 1:52 PM on April 16, 2006

it gets mentioned every time he opens his trap, but he's never actually responded to it. Why not?

Wild guess here, but I'm gunna go with the idea that he's a spineless ignoramus and professional blowhard.

I love it when he's called out, then refuses to respond. It vindicates every harsh thing that's ever been said about him.

For example:
No. If you are too much a coward hypocrite to become a US citizen, despite reaping all the benefits of being here, then STFU about US politics.
posted by ParisParamus

...

Paris, he became an American citizen decades ago, famously voting for Reagan in 1980.

Welp, now we'll never hear from him again on this topic.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 2:01 PM on April 16, 2006

quonsar, I enjoy your participation and irreverence on MetaFilter, but if either of you realized the degree to which your judgements of others are self-portraits, you would be more circumspect.

having just realized the degree to which my judgements of others are self-portraits, i am overflowing with circumspection.
posted by quonsar at 2:11 PM on April 16, 2006

Doesn't smell like circumspection...
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 2:13 PM on April 16, 2006

obligatory stoner review
posted by skallas at 2:14 PM on April 16, 2006

when did the Grateful Dead ever do anything to piss off their fans?

Deadheads were more or less in a continuous state of kvetching about the band for 30 years. When the Dead signed their first recording contract with RCA back in the Haight-Ashbury era, they had obviously "sold out" to the Man. When they started playing shorter songs circa American Beauty and Workingman's Dead, they had "gone pop." When they decided to keep playing after Pigpen died, many fans thought they had lost their front-man and raison d'etre. When the Dead took a hiatus in the mid-70s to launch a record company and collect themselves, fans freaked out. When the band reunited, fans claimed that they had jumped the shark and that the structure of Dead shows had "ossified." (It was actually Phil Lesh who said that first.) When they posed in white suits for the cover of Go to Heaven they had clearly lost it and became "disco Dead." When Lesh took it upon himself to remix Anthem of the Sun and Aoxomoxoa, people said he had ruined them. When "Touch of Grey" broke out as an unlikely radio hit and MTV devoted a whole day to them, the Dead scene was clearly "over." When they hired Bruce Hornsby to replace the late Brent Mydland, please! But then when Vince Welnick... well, you get the drift. And every one of these critiques was, in some way, true. But...
posted by digaman at 2:24 PM on April 16, 2006

And yes, I know I just blew my MeFi credibility forever. :)
posted by digaman at 2:28 PM on April 16, 2006

there has been no grateful dead since jerry died

Amen to that, brother, amen to that...
posted by docgonzo at 2:32 PM on April 16, 2006

/joining digaman in the no-cred corner
posted by docgonzo at 2:32 PM on April 16, 2006

there has been no grateful dead since jerry died

I agree as well. In 1993, Bruce Hornsby told me he thought of the Dead as "the Jerry Garcia Orchestra." It turned out to be very true.
posted by digaman at 2:36 PM on April 16, 2006

The Grateful Dead is a great many things to a great many people: a band, a canon of music, a way to approach music, a way to approach life. Whether or not you think all of that ended in 1995 is a bit of a Rohrschach test, really. At the Beacon two weeks ago, I found the spirit of the Grateful Dead alive and well.

On just this question, my friend Walter likes to quote the Bible: "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Of course, Walter's referring to Jerry, not Jesus.

What a fitting discussion, it being Easter and all.
posted by muckster at 3:10 PM on April 16, 2006

Yay!

Thanks for the Dixie Chicks link, tula. I'm happy they pumped the whole thing into my IE cache!
posted by taosbat at 3:39 PM on April 16, 2006

& bim, thanks for Pink's tune...
posted by taosbat at 3:44 PM on April 16, 2006

Your welcome, taosbat.

I think I'll be needing that Dixie Chicks' album too. Along with the Neil Young album. And I already have Pink. Being anti-war is getting expensive!

BTW, I love the black outfits on the Chicks. :)
posted by bim at 3:54 PM on April 16, 2006

Bruce Hornsby told me he thought of the Dead as "the Jerry Garcia Orchestra."

fee waybill told me vince welnick said bruce hornsby is a dick.
posted by quonsar at 3:54 PM on April 16, 2006

well, prairie prince told me that bill graham mentioned that bonnie hayes said that greg kihn whispered that you were no wild combo in bed after all. so there.
posted by digaman at 4:26 PM on April 16, 2006

Hey , bim, thank's again...it's the first thing by Pink I've heard in full and it was, well, just free...

Even Buffalo Springfield wasn't free back in the day...

We used to share new records by taping them. Someone would buy the latest record by CSNY, the Beatles... & we'd all tape it. Someone else would buy the latest whatever...and we'd all tape that.

I thought such sharing was frowned upon these days. Perhaps I was mistaken.
posted by taosbat at 4:27 PM on April 16, 2006

PS.

Thier stockings are a very nice touch.
posted by taosbat at 4:28 PM on April 16, 2006

fee waybill told me vince welnick said bruce hornsby is a dick.

that's the one good thing about 3rd shift stocking at meijers ... lots of good conversation
posted by pyramid termite at 4:30 PM on April 16, 2006

No. If you are too much a coward hypocrite to become a US citizen, despite reaping all the benefits of being here, then STFU about US politics.

You know what Paris? We don't like your bullshit here, especially the trasparently idiotic bullshit like this. And yet, for some inexplicable reason, the powers that be here seem to value freedom of expression enough that you get to stay.

That's an American ideal. What is citizenship? Does it include adopting American ideals? If so, I'd say your qualifications as an American citizien are obviously showing poorly. Or Bush-like: lots of big talk about defending America, but are readiness to drop American civic ideals at the drop of a hat.

Or are you really trying to suggest that the only people who should be allowed to voice any opinion about a nation's policy are those who live there?

No, because I don't live in Iran, and Iran is not a democracy.

So... people who DON'T live in Iran, and better yet, like you, probably know absolutely nothing about it, and at any rate, absolutely and unquestionable do not know Iran the way that someone who's lived on the ground there knows it -- it's OK for these people to speak out about Iran? Whereas someone who lives there but isn't a citizen and can't vote there (they DO hold elections, you know) should get the STFU when commenting on its culture and politics?

Its harvesting the benefits without accepting the responsibilities.
It's hypocrtical to hand out in a country for a long time, but not step up to the civic plate and become a citizen and vote

You seem to have confused voting with the entirety of civic and community responsibility. Probably because it seems convenient for your argument, even though it's an obviously incorrect equivalent.

Young is, at the very least, shouldering the responsibility that those with a megaphone have to speak, and to boot, you personally have no idea what else he does, and probably are unaware of his actual citizenship status. In fact, until this thread popped up, you seem to have had no idea he lived in California. Not that ignorance seems to keep you quiet.

And it should be evident with even a moment's review that voting is not the beginning or end of civic responsibility, and one can in fact contribute to a community without having full citizenship in it.

The problem here, Paris, is that you may not even realize that not only do none of your arguments make any sense when examined rationally, but they're not even your real reasons for rejecting him. You simply don't like what he has to say about the President that you've hitched your amygdala to.
posted by namespan at 4:33 PM on April 16, 2006

"Hey Paris, you still haven't responded to your statement of 2003."

Stop the derail. I've responded countless times that WMDs were found, and much of the stuff was shipped to Syria.
posted by ParisParamus at 4:58 PM on April 16, 2006

If WMDs are not found in Iraq, and in large quantity (or at least objective evidence that they were destroyed), then, in terms of American politics, the war was a sham, and the President should be indicted.
posted by ParisParamus at 11:57 AM EST on April 29 [2003!]

If WMDs are not found in Iraq, and in large quantity (or at least objective evidence that they were destroyed), then, in terms of American politics, the war was a sham, and the President should be indicted.
posted by ParisParamus at 11:57 AM EST on April 29 [2003!]

If WMDs are not found in Iraq, and in large quantity (or at least objective evidence that they were destroyed), then, in terms of American politics, the war was a sham, and the President should be indicted.
posted by ParisParamus at 11:57 AM EST on April 29 [2003!]

posted by wakko at 4:58 PM on April 16, 2006

namespan, you know what, I didn't even click on the link. What he says about President Bush is irrelevant. My point is/was that if Neil Young is going to enjoy the fruits of the US, at least he can step up to the plate, become a citizen, and vote. Now if he has done so, my point is academic, and I withdraw it.
posted by ParisParamus at 5:01 PM on April 16, 2006

Paris, you telling people here to "stop the derail" is the funniest goddamned thing I've ever heard!!!! Kudos to you-dos!
posted by wakko at 5:04 PM on April 16, 2006

"So... people who DON'T live in Iran, and better yet, like you, probably know absolutely nothing about it, and at any rate, absolutely and unquestionable do not know Iran the way that someone who's lived on the ground there knows it"

One doesn't need a college or graduate degree in Iran to know that its leadership is ripe for removal. I don't have a PhD or even BS in Nazi Germany; does that mean I can't pass judgment on Hitler?
posted by ParisParamus at 5:06 PM on April 16, 2006

I've responded countless times that WMDs were found, and much of the stuff was shipped to Syria.

that's contradictory ... and you have proof of neither statement
posted by pyramid termite at 5:06 PM on April 16, 2006

I don't have a PhD or even BS

You have plenty of the latter...
posted by wakko at 5:08 PM on April 16, 2006

One doesn't need a college or graduate degree in Iran to know that its leadership is ripe for removal.

no, one just needs to be registered to vote there ... oddly enough, those who are have declined to remove this leadership

truth is, a good portion of iran's citizens support their crappy government
posted by pyramid termite at 5:09 PM on April 16, 2006

Having lived within range of Kim Jong-Il's nukes gives one a mental clarity far beyond digaman's rock'n'roll-level imagination--or Neil's.

I've lived in range of them for 7 of the last ten years. Do I get to claim the 'mental clarity' bonus?

Seriously, nobody who's ever lived among Koreans (god bless 'em) has ever suggested that an appropriate phrase to describe them would be 'mental clarity'.

The truth is that the picture of the DPRK painted by the South Korean media is so nicey-nice, and there is so little knowledge amongst ordinary folks of things like starvation and concentration camps (or, to be less charitable, so little actual concern in the face of the knowledge where it exists, pretty conceits like 'brotherhood' aside), that I'd say average South Koreans are amongst the least concerned about KJI's nukes. The government and chaebol are more concerned about economic stability and maintaining the status quo, and they've chosen to use dissembling rather than fearmongering to achieve that. [/tangent]
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:21 PM on April 16, 2006

Doing some background reading, the Chicks' listener backlash was highly overblown, with a few high profile stunts and obsessive fan threats. After the blowup they went on to a highly successful tour, and "Not Ready to Make Nice" is already on the charts with radio play. The worst thing that comes out of this is that they join the long list of performers who have become outsiders to a "Country Music Industry" that is widely criticized for its obsessive-compulsive tendencies towards image manufacturing and for preferring pop music over traditional country. The Chicks are already being positioned as cross-over artists, so what they loose from getting blacklisted from one set of playlists, will get picked up on a different set of playlists. (I'm thinking the same kinds of "adult contemporary" stuff that got k. d. lang well deserved best-selling albums and Grammys after her "blacklisting" from country music.)

Young is in a bit of a better position because the rock industry's response to any kind of politics is to shrink wrap and market it to death. It's an industry that's comfortable making products of both Nugent and Springsteen (not to mention what happens when it grabs punk). I'm certain someone has figured a way to make both The Chicks and Neil Young into products, and it wouldn't surprise me to see them packaged together in a tour or concert special that will run every weekend for a month on MTV or VH1. If the consumers bite, expect to see the Chicks with various levels of skin exposed on the magazine stand every week this summer, and plenty of photos of Young looking like the elder sage.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 5:36 PM on April 16, 2006

that's contradictory ... and you have proof of neither statement

Sounds like he found religion.
posted by boaz at 5:42 PM on April 16, 2006

And I didn't mean that Neil Young should, literally, STFU, saying so is/was a rhetorical device to make the point that if he doesn't vote in the US, he is being duplicitous.
posted by ParisParamus at 5:56 PM on April 16, 2006

ParisParamus writes "'Hey Paris, you still haven't responded to your statement of 2003.'

"Stop the derail. I've responded countless times that WMDs were found, and much of the stuff was shipped to Syria."

Proof? Seriously. Provide objective proof from a nonbiased, nonpartisan source, and I will happily leave you alone. Until then:

If WMDs are not found in Iraq, and in large quantity (or at least objective evidence that they were destroyed), then, in terms of American politics, the war was a sham, and the President should be indicted.
posted by ParisParamus at 11:57 AM EST on April 29 [2003!]
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 6:26 PM on April 16, 2006

If WMDs are not found in Iraq, and in large quantity...

And let's define "large quantity" as something more than a handful of decades old artillery shells.
posted by bashos_frog at 6:31 PM on April 16, 2006

My point is/was that if Neil Young is going to enjoy the fruits of the US, at least he can step up to the plate, become a citizen, and vote.

*rolls eyes* -- you may have noticed the part of my post where I pointed out that voting is neither the beginning nor end of contributing to whatever community you choose to call home, so your blustering about his citizenship is irrelevant. Not to mention the part about observer-non-citizens having relevant viewpoints. Do you want to concede those points, or argue them?

And also, you're wrong about what your own point was --- but that's because it's not a point, it's your evolving excuse for telling Neil to STFU. Originally, you said it was because he was Canadian, so he shouldn't be speaking about the internal political affairs of a foreign country. Then you found out he's lived here for 40 years, and so the only thing you apparently have left is this obsession with the idea that he must not be informed or have anything worth saying or give anything back to the community in which he lives because he doesn't hold citizenship and vote. Except now you've realized he may actually be a citizen. So he may or may not have to STFU, depending on whether or not you can make up another reason.

namespan, you know what, I didn't even click on the link.

Do you expect us to believe you don't know what Young's opinion is from the content of the post alone?

One doesn't need a college or graduate degree in Iran to know that its leadership is ripe for removal.

Did I say anything about graduate degrees? I was talking about the kind of knowledge you might get from living on the ground inside a foreign country, versus the kind of knowledge you might get as lawyer speculating about said country from his appartment in New York.

But all in all, I'd say your statement is a fair analogy. One doesn't need to hold the right to vote in the U.S. to understand the problems with the Bush Administration.
posted by namespan at 6:52 PM on April 16, 2006

I've lived in range of them for 7 of the last ten years. Do I get to claim the 'mental clarity' bonus?

I would have thought so, stavros, but I guess unless you're a voting citizen of South Korea, your assesment is unreliable and you get a big STFU, regardless of what living there has taught you.
posted by namespan at 7:11 PM on April 16, 2006

Well, although your tone is a little unclear, there, (you're not actually telling me to STFU, I don't think), I will add chum to the waters by adding that in one more year, if I'm still here, I actually can apply for and receive voting rights as a long-time foreign resident and spouse, without being a citizen.

On that glorious day, I wonder, will I automatically get sprinkled with pixie dust that makes me more capable of voting intelligently, that makes my commentary on Korea more insightful, and gives me that +10 Armor of Mental Clarity?

Hells no. Of course not. But I'm not arguing with the troll, because that's pointless. Just a data point for those who are.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 7:27 PM on April 16, 2006

Sorry. I can't hold this in any longer. I want to punch this in the Adam's Apple. Guh.

/derail
posted by ninjew at 8:40 PM on April 16, 2006

PP:I've responded countless times that WMDs were found, and much of the stuff was shipped to Syria.

Your original post states "found in Iraq." Not shipped to syria. Time to eat your shoe, Werner.
posted by skallas at 9:36 PM on April 16, 2006

"shipped to Syria" is a desperate theory, not a fact.

And since when does casting your vote constitute the single most important (or only) way to contribute to the political system? For many people, you included, probably, because after all -- what else are you doing? Or is this the maximum degree of input any citizen should be permitted? Cast your vote and close your eyes for four years. That'd certainly make the admin -- any admin -- happy.
posted by dreamsign at 9:48 PM on April 16, 2006

Single most important? Actually, most fundamantal, condition precedent, predicate, prerequisite to complaining about what's going on somewhere. Or, are you interested in mob rule?
posted by ParisParamus at 4:41 AM on April 17, 2006

""shipped to Syria" is a desperate theory, not a fact."

I make the declarations; I can set the rules. Alternatively, they are still in Iraq and haven't been found yet. There, feel better now?
posted by ParisParamus at 4:45 AM on April 17, 2006

Metafilter: so many dykes to plug with your typing fingers

Please! I've had a busy day at the orifice.
posted by pax digita at 5:13 AM on April 17, 2006

I make the declarations; I can set the rules. Alternatively, they are still in Iraq and haven't been found yet. There, feel better now?

LA LA LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA LA LA
posted by EarBucket at 6:09 AM on April 17, 2006

Considering how fast both quonsar and ParisParamus jumped on this, I'd say they are just a little afraid of how important a good, solid protest song can be.

We shall overcome, anyone?
posted by mooncrow at 7:29 AM on April 17, 2006

STFU Neil

Neil Young? Please...someone that makes a living by selling you on their image (!ideals - he is making a product - if not, he'd perform for free and give away his music) getting all political. Yawn.
posted by mrblondemang at 8:29 AM on April 17, 2006

if not, he'd perform for free and give away his music) getting all political. Yawn.

That's right! And if your brain surgeon wasn't selling you his image, he'd perform his brain surgery on you for free. What a shuck. Funny synchronicity too -- Neil Young needed brain surgery recently to save his life from a potentially deadly aneurysm. It's too bad his brain surgeon was probably some wannabe Hollywood image artist, or he could have gotten his surgery for free. I wonder what you do for a living, mrblondmag? Do you do it for free? If not, STFU about politics, because we don't need your sell-out opinions.
posted by digaman at 8:34 AM on April 17, 2006

*mrblondemang
posted by digaman at 8:35 AM on April 17, 2006

ParisParamus writes "I make the declarations; I can set the rules. Alternatively, they are still in Iraq and haven't been found yet. There, feel better now?"

Ahhhhh. Well. That makes everything clear; your statement in 2003 was just posturing. Good to see that you, as with the President you so clearly adore, have no spine whatsoever, and will say whatever you want for the moment. Actually having the courage of your convictions is difficult, I'll admit. But lying through your teeth, well... that's just sad and pathetic. Given your idol, however, I suppose it's only appropriate.

I sincerely hope, PP, that one day you'll look back at yourself and be horrified by your actions, horrified at how you were duped, and horrified at these absurd stances you take. I think, however, that's as likely as Bush finally admitting to all of his lies about Iraq. That's sad, doubly so because it seems like you're an otherwise intelligent, if sorely and sadly deluded, person.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 8:55 AM on April 17, 2006

It's very germane to the central point of this thread to note, by the way, that by recording a protest song, Neil is not only expressing his own roots as a folksinger, he's well within the tradition of public musicmaking itself. The original itinerant musicians were medieval minstrels and troubadors, who often supplemented their odes to the charms and snares of romantic love with comments on the events of the day and ballads about wars and other historical events. In many ways, the troubadors were the first public news network. Neil is just doing what singers have always done, whether you agree with his politics or not.
posted by digaman at 9:22 AM on April 17, 2006

I think Paris P needs a unit to sample and hold, but not the angry one, a new design, new design.
posted by Divine_Wino at 9:47 AM on April 17, 2006

Perspective, people. Don't engage the turd. He clearly has enough problems.
posted by squirrel at 10:41 AM on April 17, 2006

Oy. If people start posting pictures of MeFiers here to rebut our comments, we're all in trouble.
posted by digaman at 11:24 AM on April 17, 2006

Neil ain't winnin' no beauty contests neither.
posted by digaman at 11:26 AM on April 17, 2006

Stavros:

> I've lived in range of them for 7 of the last ten years. Do I get to claim the 'mental clarity'
> bonus?

You ask why I don't live here
Honey how come you don't leave?
-- well-known ~~entertainer~~ artist cited in this thread

> Seriously, nobody who's ever lived among Koreans (god bless 'em) has ever
> suggested that an appropriate phrase to describe them would be 'mental clarity'.

The woman I spoke of is not, of course, Korean any longer, except in ethnicity. Perhaps not fitting in, in that particular way, was part of her decision to leave.

Zetetics:

> (btw, are we to believe that jfuller actually has a manicurist, or is he just deranged?)

So I'm oppressor-class. Zetetics paging Danton and Robespierre.
posted by jfuller at 11:35 AM on April 17, 2006

Hmm... well this image certainly changed a lot in the last 20 minutes.
posted by digaman at 11:38 AM on April 17, 2006

If WMDs are not found in Iraq, and in large quantity (or at least objective evidence that they were destroyed), then, in terms of American politics, the war was a sham, and the President should be indicted.
posted by ParisParamus at 11:57 AM EST on April 29 [2003!]
posted by stenseng at 12:06 PM on April 17, 2006

i've never done this before, but:

Metafilter: So many people whose opinions can be instantly dismissed
posted by Miles Long at 12:09 PM on April 17, 2006

Miles, I'm not so bothered, I'll contribute one: ParisParamusfilter: STFU.

Thanks for de-railing another thread ParisParamus. Pool meet piss...pissy Metapool, meet ~~Paris~~FreedomParamus: Conehead of WMD "mass quantities" perfidy.

News is that the administration now, en masse, are jumping off the "WMD in the SOTU prior to war in Iraq was a lie bandwagon."

It was about the "freedom." WMD is supposed to be "renditioned from the rational." Better grab your Newspeak dictionary and get it "right" PP before your own send you for re-education to Room 101.

PP: The Founding Fathers called...they want to remind you of that freedom of speech in America thing...Mr. STFUParamus.

STFU? Done Neil's taxes to the US lately PP? He pays for a war, has American children affected by the war deficit for their forseeable lifetime, and an Amreican citizen wife who can and does vote, and should STFU because you, taxman, believe in life under "taxation without representation or comment."

Or are you just against those foul mixed Canadian-American marriages?

You don't even want the man to have the freedom to have free expression without representation in your personal United States, FrenchParamus? Some democracy you have cooked up in your head there. Reminds me of the former Soviet Union repression of opinion regarding their governmnet for some reason.

And what's behind the Franco-American username?

Going to claim it does not begin with the French capitol but really begins with the name of some guy involved in an ancient foreign war on Troy or something equally foreign and evasively squirrelly?

Didn't get the Neocon memo, PP: Renane all French things in America into Amurrican ASAP...or STFU!

And anyone with a half-French / half-NJ reference name, STFU...at least until you get an ALL-American username. Like "Springfield-Paramus" or "Hakensack-Paramus."

King George/God knows that good American Imperialists never use anything French in naming (like "Paris") because the right-wing talking point is to denegrate France.

PP get onboard: Real Amercans™ hate France becaue...um...the French are the people that assissted us in fighting the Revolutionary War against the first imperialist King George, they invented "Libertie, Egalitie, Fraternatie!" and gave the US the "Statue of Liberty" and NEED to have schmucks rename the fries in a capitol cafeteria from "French" to "Freedom" out of recognition of that long relationship.

How dare those freedom-loving French protest American intervention into the freedom of other countries, protest the "Blitzkreig to Baghdad" and remove the choice to for Iraqis to rise up on their own, and in their own time, to forge their own destinies, without a self-serving civil-war-triggering occupation from the US.

Oh, and you don't vote in Paris, Paris. So tell yourself to STFU until you've got an American username.

Or at least until you've spent a moment reflecting on your image (and all your posts regarding other countries where you do not vote) in a mirror darkly.
posted by Dunvegan at 2:39 PM on April 17, 2006

> Thanks for de-railing another thread ParisParamus

I sincerely don't understand the derail accusation. A user posts a topic for comment. Comment ensues. Some of that comment is pro, some is con. Are you truly of the "if you can't say something good then you shouldn't say anything" school?

My notion of "derail" is to pull the discussion away from the topic at hand, namely Neil and his forthcoming album, and direct it to some extraneous topic having nothing to do with Neil. That has not happened. The main derail attempts visible to me (failed, happily) came courtesy of those who felt the need to put PP in his place after his first post in the thread, by dragging in references to things he posted in unrelated threads concerning utterly unrelated subjects.

posted by jfuller at 3:20 PM on April 17, 2006

PP's first two posts to this thread said "shut the fuck up, Neil" and "shut up," along with stuff about Neil being Canadian.

I don't think PP "derailed" the thread, but he didn't exactly establish a foundation of sober-headed discourse here either. That the flames ended up being directed back at PP may be slightly unfair in a perfect world, but you know how people are. If the first words out of your mouth when you arrive at a party are SHUT UP and SHUT THE FUCK UP, you can't be too surprised when people get uptight.
posted by digaman at 3:31 PM on April 17, 2006

"The government and chaebol are more concerned about economic stability and maintaining the status quo ... "

There is no chaebol.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:16 PM on April 17, 2006

Neil ain't winnin' no beauty contests neither

Hey, cut ol' Neil some slack! He's 60 years old. Most people don't look all that perky at 60. Depreciation is a bitch. :)
posted by bim at 4:28 PM on April 17, 2006

Alternatively, they are still in Iraq and haven't been found yet. There, feel better now?
posted by ParisParamus at 4:45 AM PST on April 17 [!]

Asked if the ISG had stopped actively searching for WMD, Mr McClellan said: "That's my understanding...
posted by rough ashlar at 4:37 PM on April 17, 2006

jfuller, don't be purposefully thick. Most of us know the Turd's game by now, just as you do. He sees others poised to discuss the Young's work, and sets out to change the topic to a discussion of which immegration status grants one the privelage of dissent. It's Troll 101: flame and distract.
posted by squirrel at 4:40 PM on April 17, 2006

You've got a funny idea of "unrelated," jfuller.
posted by NortonDC at 6:27 PM on April 17, 2006

Hey, cut ol' Neil some slack! He's 60 years old. Most people don't look all that perky at 60. Depreciation is a bitch. :)

Oh believe me, I do. I think Neil is beautiful, crags and all. I just posted it to contrast with the young, heroic photo of Neil that Squirrel had posted to shame [Mr. X.], but then Squirrel went and changed the image.

But yeah -- I don't look so good myself!
posted by digaman at 6:32 PM on April 17, 2006

Troll = any controversial minority postion or remark on an issue that differs from yours by more than a bit.
posted by ParisParamus at 8:10 PM on April 17, 2006

Even you don't believe that anymore, Turd.
posted by squirrel at 8:54 PM on April 17, 2006

Troll = any controversial minority postion or remark on an issue that differs from yours by more than a bit.

Hardly. The reason why people keep labeling you a troll is that the idea you believe most of the things you say seems to strain credibility.

But frankly, the United States is full of people who think that an opinion is worthless if it ain't held by someone holding U.S. citizenship. Or if it's critical of anyone on the side of the political spectrum they like.

So, I don't think Paris is a troll. He's simply wrong.
posted by namespan at 10:35 PM on April 17, 2006

He's simply wrong.
posted by namespan at 10:35 PM PST on April 17 [!]

Been wrong so long he looks right.
posted by rough ashlar at 3:03 AM on April 18, 2006

Well, at the end of the Leftist dream is communism, in which voting either doesn't exist, or is a charade, so it makes sense that many of you would not think that Neil Young's voting/electorial status doesn't matter.
posted by ParisParamus at 3:34 AM on April 18, 2006

er...many of you would not think that Neil Young's voting/electorial status matters.
posted by ParisParamus at 3:40 AM on April 18, 2006

er...many of you would not think that Neil Young's voting/electorial status matters.
posted by ParisParamus at 3:40 AM PST on April 18 [!]

It only matters in your small, little world. And you are stupid enough to think there is a difference between a Replocrat or a Demopublican.
posted by rough ashlar at 3:44 AM on April 18, 2006

Well, at least you admit it--the others don't.
posted by ParisParamus at 3:55 AM on April 18, 2006

Well, at the end of the Rightist dream is Fascism, in which voting either doesn't exist, or is a charade, and they kick you in the face with a shovel.

So maybe we all had better stop jerking around and learn to get along?
posted by stenseng at 1:54 PM on April 18, 2006

Okay, to sum up ParisParamus's statements regarding the legitimacy of the Iraq war (the dispute over which drives much of the anger behind Neil's protest), first let's review ParisParamus's statement of position:

If WMDs are not found in Iraq, and in large quantity (or at least objective evidence that they were destroyed), then, in terms of American politics, the war was a sham, and the President should be indicted.
posted by ParisParamus at 11:57 AM EST on April 29 [2003!]

Hmm, bold words. How does he measure the current situation against the standards he defines in those bold words:

I've responded countless times that WMDs were found, and much of the stuff was shipped to Syria.
posted by ParisParamus at 7:58 PM EST on April 16 [!]

Hmm, he does not indicate with this statement that his escape conditions for President Bush's indictment have been triggered, because ParisParamus explicitly required the WMD to found "in Iraq," which his own statement indicates did not happen.

So here we still see ParisParamus calling the war a "sham" and calling for President Bush's indictment. His bold words still ring out like a clarion. Does that golden throat have more to say? Why yes, it does:

Alternatively, they are still in Iraq and haven't been found yet.
posted by ParisParamus at 7:45 AM PST on April 17 [!]

Again, MetaFilter's own ParisParamus dares to hold President Bush's feet to the fire by reinforcing that WMD have not been found in Iraq, leaving the reader with ParisParamus's conclusion that the war is a "sham" and that President Bush must be indicted.

Brave words, indeed. Now, let's watch ParisParamus carry that banner forth, not just on MetaFilter, but everywhere...
posted by NortonDC at 3:06 PM on April 18, 2006

Well, at the end of the Leftist dream is communism

You know it's a sign you're in trouble when you have no alternative but to call your opposition in an argument names.

Seriously. Communists? Sorry, not me bub, while I don't turn and pray to Wall Street 5 times a day, I'm actually a supporter of tuned and huming free markets, don't particularly believe in a command economy. Hell, I'm suspicious of large, no-bid government contracts.

But hey, if you want to misappropriate the word communism and accuse anybody who believes in publically funded libraries of being as red as Stalin, be my guest. It's a fine distraction from the points which you've failed to address.

So what part of allowing Neil Young to speak do you find communist?

I mean, seriously. This is a simple idea, Paris. This idea is: someone who doesn't hold electoral privilege in a given country may still have worthwhile things to say about its policies.

What part of that do you think is full of folly?

And furthermore, that in this country, we protect everyone's right to say what they like about politics.

Sounds pretty damn American to me.

If you've gotten to the point where that principle seems suggest associations with Soviet-style Communism to you, then maybe you ought to think over how you've gotten to this point.
posted by namespan at 11:50 PM on April 18, 2006

Youtube video of CNN interview with Neil Young about the record.
posted by funambulist at 6:53 AM on April 26, 2006

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