Comments on: NINJAS IM TALKING ABOUT THE SIMPLE FREEDOM TO EXIST.

NINJAS I’M TALKING ABOUT THE SIMPLE FREEDOM TO EXIST.

klangklangston — Wed, 03 May 2006 07:17:03 -0800

The Juggalos have been having a bit of a hard time lately. Perhaps it's because they lack a spiritual grounding. Though, lo, like many nascent faiths, the Juggalos strain for acceptance. No word yet on the details of Juggalo eschatology.

By: sewshi

sewshi — Wed, 03 May 2006 07:53:22 -0800

Cult? Religion? My goodness.. Being a scratch dj and a huge fan of hiphop I can safely say that this is some of the WORST music being produced out there. It's like being a fan of trance and loving Paul Oakenfold. There is much better shit out there, kids. I guess people will have their own opinion. Also, this just seems like another insane kid. Once again, it's not necessarily going to reflect the views of all "Juggalos".

By: fleetmouse

fleetmouse — Wed, 03 May 2006 07:56:28 -0800

That's truly saddening. These poor sons of bitches are trying to make some sense and structure out of their broken lives and they reach for the first thing they can find, like birds making nests out of whatever detritus happens to be lying around. I haven't read the ICP lyrics closely but it seems like they don't make a hell of a lot of sense but are vaguely portentous in that stoned rock opera way and the fans - excuse me, juggalos - are reading into it whatever they need to hear. The band picks up on that and starts dropping bread crumbs... it's an interactive thing and the band and the fans collaboratively create a mythology out of their mutual needs. Of course emotionally confused and probably stoned young people reading meaning into vaguely portentous lyrics is a recipe for trouble. Some people need to be told what to think and the entertainment industry isn't cutting it as spiritual leadership.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Wed, 03 May 2006 07:56:51 -0800

It's so bad that it borders on the sublime...

By: Optimus Chyme

Optimus Chyme — Wed, 03 May 2006 07:59:44 -0800

A friend of mine watched a headphone-wearing juggalo rap his way though Sears the other day; apparently this is was at perfectly audible levels and at no time did he demonstrate the deep shame that a normal person would have felt. They're like a whole different species.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 08:17:50 -0800

I think some of you haters are taking it way too seriously. ICP are in the gleefully stoopid tradition of Alice Cooper, Kiss & Twisted Sister and as such are complete successes. Just good old fashioned big and dumb fun. They're not trying to be Leonard Cohen, here.

By: sewshi

sewshi — Wed, 03 May 2006 08:18:03 -0800

To be honest, I don't really remember too many ICP lyrics myself. I remember them saying lots about Faygo, fat chicks, and being wicked clowns in very basic rhymes. I have heard that they used to be called Inner City Posse but being the "suburban gangstas" that they were without knowing the real mix of the Detroit street gangs, they promptly got their asses kicked. Way to go, guys.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Wed, 03 May 2006 08:21:51 -0800

Jon, you're once again conflating intentionally stupid with good. Gravediggaz are stupid, successful horror rap. Esham is stupid, boring horror rap. ICP is stupid, cultish horror rap. (And I can say this as someone who's even in one of their early concert videos). There's a big distance between ICP and Alice Cooper, just like there's a big difference between Alice Cooper's later stuff and the first several albums.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 08:22:21 -0800

again, sewshi, authenticity has little to do with it, and comparing them to actual hip-hop is like comparing a cheeseburger to a a bowl of paella. Just enjoy the unrepentant vulgarity and the pop culture rush of the rubes overpowering the guardians of propriety.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 08:25:24 -0800

Jon, you're once again conflating intentionally stupid with good. It's not always good. and I'm certainly not comparing them with Cooper's best stuff in terms of quality. But when I'm in the mood ICP can be fun. "Dead Bodies," is good for a chuckle and "Halls Of Illusion," is actually a pretty good song. And there's a long tradition of gleeful stoopidity in rock and roll: Alice Cooper, The Dictators, Ramones, Kiss, etc. It's all about the unrepentant vulgarity and crudeness. Earthshakingly brilliant? No, but fun like farting in class? yes.

By: sewshi

sewshi — Wed, 03 May 2006 08:39:54 -0800

jon, I'll agree with you there. Fun, vulgar, but fairly awful. I don't see any reason to go around touting ICP as quality music. Kind of like how Wesley Willis is to "Rock and Roll" music! Though, I think it would be funnier to see Wesley Willis have a giant cult following..

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 08:42:33 -0800

jon, I'll agree with you there. Fun, vulgar, but fairly awful. I don't see any reason to go around touting ICP as quality music. Kind of like how Wesley Willis is to "Rock and Roll" music! To me, popular music is all about spitting in the eye of the whole idea of 'quality music.' YMMV. I don't see any reason to go around touting ICP as quality music To keep rock and hip-hop from turning into what jazz has become: airless, bloodless music for yuppies to show off their 'tastefullness' with.

By: weretable and the undead chairs

weretable and the undead chairs — Wed, 03 May 2006 08:50:18 -0800

You are completely insane.

By: prostyle

prostyle — Wed, 03 May 2006 08:50:56 -0800

ICP is a bane on the medium of sound. Aside from the absolutely horrible excuse for compositions, I can't understand the draw to this "juggalo" business. Assuming the prerequisite for attraction to this group is a history of rejection from other social spheres, why would you ever want to assert yourself as a "Wicked Clown"? Hate to be a jerk, but every person who was in to ICP when I was in school smoked meth, lived in a trailer and couldn't decide if they wanted to be a wigger or a goth. Seems to be par for the course.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 08:55:12 -0800

Hate to be a jerk, but every person who was in to ICP when I was in school smoked meth, lived in a trailer and couldn't decide if they wanted to be a wigger or a goth. Tom Carson on the Ramones: "Punks in the original sense of the word, were the sort of people who were such hopeless losers that they couldn't even be convincing as outlaws; far from romanticizing that status, the Ramones glorified their own inadequacy....and yet they were genuinely sexy,too; in spite of everything they were cool." That's who rock and roll is for, prostyle, not countercultural yuppies. Embrace mediocrity and stupidity. It's liberating.

By: weretable and the undead chairs

weretable and the undead chairs — Wed, 03 May 2006 08:58:39 -0800

I can't understand the draw to this "juggalo" business. People are insane.

By: adamgreenfield

adamgreenfield — Wed, 03 May 2006 09:00:05 -0800

jon, you're attributing the ability to discern irony and multiple-level readings in a userbase that is clearly, in large part, thoroughly unable to do so. The juggalos I've met are some of the most isolated, anguished, self- and everything-else-hating souls I've ever stumbled across. They're not digging the stoopidity. This is their life. We might have the decency to take their claims at face value.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 09:01:46 -0800

My god, listen to you people. Decrying the 'quality of the music' and those 'awful people' who listen to them.' If this was 1977, you guys would be dismissing the Ramones and touting Yes. (I'm not comparing ICP to The Ramones, by any stratch, but that's waht you guys sound like to me right now.)

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 09:03:20 -0800

who says I'm being ironic? To most fans of the band I've met, it's simply fun, like Kiss or Twisted Sister. Sure, some take it too far, but there's fanatics in any group of fans.

By: verb

verb — Wed, 03 May 2006 09:03:21 -0800

That just means they're authentic adamgreenfield.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Wed, 03 May 2006 09:16:31 -0800

"To keep rock and hip-hop from turning into what jazz has become: airless, bloodless music for yuppies to show off their 'tastefullness' with." Bullshit. Tim Berne's Bloodcount. Peter Brotzman. Gerald Cleaver's Veil of Names. DKV. AALY. Hamid Drake. William Parker. Matthew Shipp. Nomo. Just because you don't listen to good jazz doesn't mean that it's bloodless yuppie music. "I'm not comparing ICP to The Ramones, by any stratch, but that's waht you guys sound like to me right now." Much as I admire your tireless defense of the stupid, it does make you sound like Geir Hongro. Sometimes people can dislike stupid stuff because it's crap while still able to enjoy other stupid music.

By: prostyle

prostyle — Wed, 03 May 2006 09:18:11 -0800

You skeeve me out, jonmc. Shouldn't you be writing for pitchfork right about now? Or hey, maybe even checking out the Juggalo Championshit Wrestling circuit - I'm assuming the intrinsic value of such an endeavor would be too much for you to resist. Every single car I see with this shitty logo plastered on it is a rustbucket - apparently they're spending all their money on ICP merchandise (Psychopathic Records Webstore, with close to $5,000 in sales daily, with a variety of items).

By: zaelic

zaelic — Wed, 03 May 2006 09:20:31 -0800

In my day kids banged two mastodon tusks together and we were happy with that. What's the world coming to?

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 09:20:59 -0800

Sometimes people can dislike stupid stuff because it's crap while still able to enjoy other stupid music. Agreed. That's a matter of taste. Dismissing ICP as stupid, but embracing other stupid acts makes for weird inconsistency is all I'm saying. And I'm not implying that there's no good jazz being made anymore, but for the most part it's become music that hip young urbans put on at dinner parties these days. I'd never heard of Geir Hongo till now. I'm more a Legs McNeil buff.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 09:23:27 -0800

jeez, prostyle, you sound like somebody's grandfather: you kids today, spending all your money on that crappy music instead of saving for a rainy day.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Wed, 03 May 2006 09:24:44 -0800

(Brief aside: Geir Hongro is a Swedish(?) music critic and internet gadfly who contends that melody is all-important, and the rhythm is at best sublimated and at worst actively detrimental to music. More than that, his totalizing theory of music makes him a bit of a fascist despite being entirely entertaining. He considers rap the worst thing to happen to culture ever and only sometimes, and grudgingly, considers it music).

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 09:26:03 -0800

I'd disagree with just about all of that, klang.

By: Spacelegoman

Spacelegoman — Wed, 03 May 2006 09:37:21 -0800

Well, The world needs ditchdiggers too

By: shmegegge

shmegegge — Wed, 03 May 2006 09:41:43 -0800

i think what bothers people about icp, but more on a subconscious level for most, is that the "we're just making fun stoopid moosic" aspect of their stuff stopped being the point after their initial success took hold. after that, so much of what they do positively reeks of fan manipulation for the sake of generating a cult of personality among angsty impressionable teens for the sake of dependable dollars no matter how bad their music is. now, maybe that's taking it too seriously. on the other hand, it could also just be calling a spade a spade.

By: mr.curmudgeon

mr.curmudgeon — Wed, 03 May 2006 09:47:29 -0800

And I'm not implying that there's no good jazz being made anymore, but for the most part it's become music that hip young urbans put on at dinner parties these days. So, tell me, how *should* one enjoy a proper jazz tune? Is there any other way that wouldn't seem equally pretentious? (Do we ALL have to trot down to the local jazz club to mingle with the hep cats?) Personally, I don't see that it matters *how* people choose to listen to their music, unless you're suggesting that it in some way actually effects the quality or creation of said music. Which...obviously, would be crazy-talk.

By: grabbingsand

grabbingsand — Wed, 03 May 2006 09:59:27 -0800

Saw an ICP documentary a few years ago. The whole Orango Faygo obsession convinced me quickly that there was no way in Hell I was ever going to give their music a chance. That and the fact that clowns are creepy enough when they're not preportedly insane.

By: grabbingsand

grabbingsand — Wed, 03 May 2006 10:00:37 -0800

Orango Faygo? Sorry. Orange. (Though I'd bet a dollar there is somebody on MySpace that would answer to the name Orango.)

By: Suparnova

Suparnova — Wed, 03 May 2006 10:04:52 -0800

Whats the attraction to be a juggalo? Well, like any other group on a local level, people you admire are in that group. If all your friends are down with the clown, you want to be too. What prostyle said is completely right however, its for those who can't decide between wigger and goth in high school.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 10:12:28 -0800

Personally, I don't see that it matters *how* people choose to listen to their music, unless you're suggesting that it in some way actually effects the quality or creation of said music. The context in which something is listened to is irrelevant? AC/DC, for instance, would be kind of annoying over a romantic dinner, but in a bar on Friday night it's great.

By: weretable and the undead chairs

weretable and the undead chairs — Wed, 03 May 2006 10:19:51 -0800

having heard quite a bit of the icp since an online friend was very into them a couple years back, their "crappiness" is actually second to the lyrics themselves, which are barely better than white-power hate rock at times. yeah, i've heard some metal/goth/rap songs that are about necrophillia or girlfriend-murder and which are either absurd enough to be sorta funny or while lyricall disgusting were at least set to a kickin' tune, but tracks like "another love song" are neither funny lyrically nor enjoyable if you ignore the lyrics. but hey, if you like them, good for you. people like john tesh too, more power to them.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 10:23:42 -0800

weretable: only if you take it seriously. And lyrics like these are written for the express purpose of offending who like to get offended by things, and for entertaining those of us who find watching people get sniffy and offended entertaining.

By: shmegegge

shmegegge — Wed, 03 May 2006 10:25:15 -0800

lyrics like these are written for the express purpose of offending who like to get offended by things, and for entertaining those of us who find watching people get sniffy and offended entertaining. you sure about that? there are plenty of folks who are entertained by icp BECAUSE they take that shit seriously, and i find it hard to believe that icp don't intentionally court that audience.

By: nixerman

nixerman — Wed, 03 May 2006 10:33:43 -0800

Eh, it's one thing to (pretend to) be stupid and vulgar as a critical stance and another thing to be stupid and vulgar in order to pander to idiots and make another million dollars. These guys aren't musicians at all--they're a product, a "lifestyle" brand designed to move content as fast as possible while the getting's good. Of course, I don't blame them. Capitalism practically demands such a race to the bottom and the market exists to fill such niches. But let's call a spade a spade; honesty is, after all, the best business practice.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 10:40:37 -0800

nixerman: it's all a matter of mood when it comes to music. Sometimes after a frustrating day, hearing a guy in a bloody clown suit bellow about driving a van full of dead bodies can be quite bracing. That stuff about capitalism is basically a human interest story to me. Dosen't affect how it fells to listen to it one iota. But if it makes you feel good to cling tightly to your sense of being above such things go curl up with Garrison Kellior or something.

By: nixerman

nixerman — Wed, 03 May 2006 10:51:29 -0800

jonmc, your elaborate "it's-good-in-when-I'm-in-the-mood" defense of ICP doesn't change the fact that, as I said above, ICP aren't musicians at all. From what I can tell, having run into some "Juggalos" a long while ago (another famous West Side feud), they exist to sell t-shirts and hair dye to white trash. This is fine, for the most part. If they weren't doing it somebody else would've stepped in to do it. Their real value though is that they serve as a textbook example of how a producer can control consumers.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 10:54:36 -0800

jonmc, your elaborate "it's-good-in-when-I'm-in-the-mood" defense of ICP doesn't change the fact that, as I said above, ICP aren't musicians at all. Again, listen to yourself. 'that's not real music. kids today. lousy white trash.' You sound like fucking Allan Bloom. It's just something to listen to, but watching bluenoses get upset about it is a nice diversion.

By: furiousthought

furiousthought — Wed, 03 May 2006 10:59:00 -0800

Man, I'd kinda thought the whole Juggalo thing came and went years ago, like Limp Bizkit. Still around, huh. Whatever works for people...

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:00:43 -0800

The Dehumanizers kick ICP's ASS. Then they scoop out the ass, bake the frothy contents into a light buttery eclair - serve it with a small demitasse and slices of kiwi - and make wussy ICP fans eat it.

By: prostyle

prostyle — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:08:34 -0800

Just for the record, jonmc has made 14 comments defending ICPs artistic integrity - accounting for roughly %30 of the thread. Please, do continue telling us how far our heads are up our collective asses, it's comedy gold.

By: shmegegge

shmegegge — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:10:38 -0800

in all fairness, he was defending the right to listen to stupid music for laid back reasons. his comments would doubtless have gone much the same if it had been alice cooper or the misfits being discussed.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:12:45 -0800

Just for the record, jonmc has made 14 comments defending ICPs artistic integrity Nah, just answering the rather surprising level of contempt they're held in by people who have nothing better to do. You all are the one's going on about 'quality music' and ICP's dredful, dreadful fans. and you're calling me comedy gold?

By: prostyle

prostyle — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:13:53 -0800

For what it's worth I have less of an issue with the artist at hand and more of an issue with thirty percent. When is enough enough? We've heard what you have to say, you don't have to reply to everyone you disagree with.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:15:03 -0800

In other words: I DON'T LIKE WHAT HE'S SAYING! MOMMY, MAKE THE BAD MAN STOP!

By: sonofsamiam

sonofsamiam — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:16:21 -0800

Make the self-important man get over himself.

By: nixerman

nixerman — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:17:47 -0800

shmeg, I doubt the band being discussed matters at all. I suspect jonmc has some sort of Bat-signal type device that goes off whenever somebody on Mefi insults his narrow vision of pop culture. Makes you wonder whether it's Batman who pretends to be Bruce Wayne or Bruce Wayne who pretends to be Batman.

By: Durhey

Durhey — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:18:06 -0800

I am shocked that you all are not giving the proper artistic deference to rapping psycho serial killer clowns. I weep to think of how all your souls will suffer in hell's pit, with a fire under your nuts for eternity. Accept the words of the prophets and turn to Juggalism to reserve your mansion in the tranquil hereafter of Shangri-La, lest the Great Milenko transform you into a boil on a dog's ass, motherfuckers. Amen.

By: prostyle

prostyle — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:18:47 -0800

I DON'T LIKE WHAT HE'S SAYING! MOMMY, MAKE THE BAD MAN STOP! Uh, no, not in the slightest. You only make me uncomfortable because of your incessant delivery and abrasive tone, not your substance. Quality/Quantity. Anyways, I've hit my self imposed five comment limit, it's only noise from here on out if I haven't communicated what I've meant to at this point. Cya in another thread, jonny boy.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:18:51 -0800

sonofsamiam: dude, I am an insignifigant hair on the toiletbowl of life, which is precisely why I find this all so amusing. I'm amazed you all even give a shit.

By: shmegegge

shmegegge — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:22:00 -0800

shmeg, I doubt the band being discussed matters at all. yeah, that's what I was getting at. but where we disagree is that I think it's BETTER for his point that the band doesn't matter. there's nothign wrong with defending the right to listen to whatever does it for you. of course, there are plenty of other reasons to have a problem with icp, as has been mentioned. i, for one, am kind of wondering why this conversation turned into being about a mefite rather than the band and its fans.

By: Optimus Chyme

Optimus Chyme — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:23:46 -0800

Jon, I'm sure people would be pissed off if anyone had a third of the comments in a pretty long thread, regardless of the subject matter. Learn to share. :) I mean, it's pretty hilarious that you'll go out of your way to defend ICP but if someone mentions Arrested Development you get all puffed up and call it a jerk show for jerks; it's a weird little persona you've cooked up.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:31:28 -0800

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:36:48 -0800

ICP is the musical equivalent of throwing eggs at cars when you were 12. It can be fun and indulgent but you better be prepared to run if somebody stops and takes you seriously.

By: bardic

bardic — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:38:10 -0800

jonmc: Mefi's own purveyor of selective haterade since 58. Rock and dumb can go hand in hand, but ICP is just dumb and sad. I was into these guys in high school, and while arguably pretty dumb (plans for world overthrow, how to mutilate your own hands to thwart fingerprinting), they were also ridiculously fun, which is the magic ingredient for teenage rebellion methinks.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:42:08 -0800

again, bardic, matter of taste, ultimately. And it's not like I'm a huge fan, I own two CD's of ICP's and only listen to them when I'm in the mood. But what I find amusing (and ironic) is this: a thread is created for the express purpose of ridiculing a band and it's fans, and when one person pipes up to say basically 'it's not that bad,' that person gets branded the troublemaker. That makes zero sense.

By: PeterMcDermott

PeterMcDermott — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:42:28 -0800

if someone mentions Arrested Development you get all puffed up and call it a jerk show for jerks Whatever you do, just don't mention Bill Hicks.

By: Optimus Chyme

Optimus Chyme — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:49:58 -0800

Optimus: that's exactly my point. If something is revered by the community, you get attacked for saying you don't like it and if something is despised by the community, you'll get attacked for saying it's not so bad (which is literally all I said). This is the exact opposite of free thought and discussion. posted by jonmc at 11:31 AM PST on May 3 Mmm, no, it's the very model of free thought and discussion. If we murdered your family or had you thrown in jail because you dug ICP, that would be the opposite.

By: iloveit

iloveit — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:51:39 -0800

I don't like ICP because their fan-base is comprised primarily of unattractive people. Think about it.

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:52:39 -0800

I own two CD's of ICP's and only listen to them when I'm in the mood. In the mood for what? Wait. Don't answer that! It may incriminate you at the trial. a thread is created for the express purpose of ridiculing a band and it's fans MY GAWD! That would be a first on MeFi! Usually we are so respectful of other peoples tastes. We must stop this evil now before it has a chance to spread. Delete this thread immediately.

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:53:54 -0800

I don't like ICP because their fan-base is comprised primarily of unattractive people. Think about it. Yeah. I noticed that. And Metallica T-shirts seem to cause severe acne. Go figure.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:55:18 -0800

Discussing entertainment with jonmc is like discussing religion with bevets.

By: bardic

bardic — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:57:00 -0800

You know who also owned two ICP albums? Just sayin'. And iloveit, I agree completely. Subjectively, of course. A mod chick in a leather jacket with The Jam logo on the back? That will always be hot.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 11:59:57 -0800

bardic: James Hetfield once described Metallica's music as 'Four Ugly Guys Singing About Ugly Shit To Ugly Music.' It's not meant for the beautiful people, and they aren't wanted there. Same could be said of ICP for a younger generation than mine, I guess.

By: jmhodges

jmhodges — Wed, 03 May 2006 12:02:02 -0800

Okay, while I disagree with jonmc for subtle reasons, I do have a problem seeing exactly where he went "wrong" in his manner of conversation. I don't see how he went "fanatic". It just seems that he was responding to many people who disagreed with him. In fact, it seems most of those people ignored his arguments and behaved rudely themselves.

By: bardic

bardic — Wed, 03 May 2006 12:07:53 -0800

jmhodges, you just gotta understand that when it comes to pop culture touchstones like ICP, "Arrested Development" (the show), and comedian Bill Hicks, jonmc is tired of people ragging on these things while sipping their lattes and upholding the genius of equally vacuous things like NWA, Pokemon, and Wagner operas. It's the fart game son, you'll learn to play someday.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 12:14:21 -0800

Actually, bardic, I'm just adding my own perspective is all, one which you consistently misread. It seems to be one you don't care for, and that's your prerogative, but it'll never prevent me from saying what's on my mind.

By: bardic

bardic — Wed, 03 May 2006 12:19:32 -0800

jonmc, it's tough for guys like you to keep it real. If only you had a forum on which you could make your opinions heard. That said, please notice I'm not the one who brought physical appearance of fans into this. And FWIW, I like any Metallica recorded with Cliff.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 12:20:37 -0800

jonmc, it's tough for guys like you to keep it real. Do you honestly think that's what it's about to me? You don't know me as well as you think you do.

By: yerfatma

yerfatma — Wed, 03 May 2006 12:38:16 -0800

I dunno, 22 comments defending a couple of guys who always looked like they were laughing all the way to the bank as inheritors of a proud, important musical tradition. Maybe we know you too well.

By: MikeMc

MikeMc — Wed, 03 May 2006 12:43:08 -0800

"...they exist to sell t-shirts and hair dye to white trash." Racist.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 12:43:25 -0800

I dunno, 22 comments defending a couple of guys who always looked like they were laughing all the way to the bank as inheritors of a proud, important musical tradition. Well, the laughing all the way to the bank part of it is pretty much irrelevant, since just about any succesfull pop artist has done the same. But there is a tradition of willfully dumb, vulgar, obnoxious, offensive popular music that serves a certain cultural purpose, and while ICP are not anywhere near being some kind of leaders of it, they have their place. What's so off base about that? (seriously, this thread is like Bizarro world. If I didn't have anything bad to say about the band, should I not have said anything at all?)

By: elr

elr — Wed, 03 May 2006 12:43:38 -0800

So a few months ago, I was judging a teen poetry slam (I know, in writing it sounds like an awfully unpleasant thing to do) and one of the poets, a Puerto Rican kid in fat pants and a Wicked Clown shirt, was a total juggalo. He prefaced his piecewith, "This goes out to all my family 'Los and 'Lettes." It was not that bad a poem, actually, but his school's team was fairly weak. I used to have a friend named Beast who, despite his many fine points, was a diehard juggalo. He was also 6'5", black as night, and a trained boxer. In full clown makeiup he made quite the imposing figure. You'd be amazed at how many Juggalos come out of the woodwork when you're riding the train with one. They're everywhere. And they have terrible taste in music (with the exception of Bone Thugs -N- Harmony, who've toured with ICP, and whom I'll always love).

By: elr

elr — Wed, 03 May 2006 12:46:02 -0800

and, just for fun I know there's an exclusive Juggalo Personals site but I can't find it anymore

By: yerfatma

yerfatma — Wed, 03 May 2006 12:54:18 -0800

the laughing all the way to the bank part of it is pretty much irrelevant, since just about any succesfull pop artist has done the same You've basically dismissed every in-thread objection as missing the point. We can't all use your frame of reference or there wouldn't be anything to talk about. And I should have been more specific: they seem to be laughing all the way to the bank and laughing at, not with, their fans. The ICP members are in on a joke the fans are not. I don't think that's applicable to all other bands.

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Wed, 03 May 2006 12:55:36 -0800

I was a member of the KISS Army in 1977. So I'm gonna quit bitch'n now.

By: sonofsamiam

sonofsamiam — Wed, 03 May 2006 12:56:19 -0800

And they have terrible taste in music Esham's done some pretty cool stuff, mostly back in pre-Psychopathic days.

By: box

box — Wed, 03 May 2006 13:00:31 -0800

I know there's an exclusive Juggalo Personals site but I can't find it anymore Here are a couple personals sites. There was also a Juggalo porn site, but it's down . (The links are from an old Memepool post.)

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 13:11:06 -0800

yerfatma: what I mean is that it's irrelevant to the experience of listening to them, as far as I'm concerned. When I listen to crass vulgar stuff, like Forgotten Rebels, W.A.S.P. or even ICP, it's when I'm in a foul fuck-the-world mood and just want to hear some invective, the nastier the better. That's it's function. and in that regard it succeeds.

By: kid ichorous

kid ichorous — Wed, 03 May 2006 13:19:22 -0800

Why is the quality of their music even relevant? It seems like the original post is about a (pseudo) social movement, which may or may not be a product of audience manipulation and cult marketing. What distinguishes this from everyday brand fanaticism? The religious undertones?

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Wed, 03 May 2006 13:22:11 -0800

What? I didn't even realize the Bugaloos were still around. Are they still in the air and everywhere?

By: jonp72

jonp72 — Wed, 03 May 2006 13:45:35 -0800

What? I didn't even realize the Bugaloos were still around. If you see Joy, tell her to call me. Yowza!!

By: graventy

graventy — Wed, 03 May 2006 13:49:12 -0800

I'm continually impressed by what jonmc fights for and against.

By: infidelpants

infidelpants — Wed, 03 May 2006 14:34:06 -0800

Proposition: ICP are a low-brow analogue of the Brechtian Tiger Lillies. Discuss.

By: dejah420

dejah420 — Wed, 03 May 2006 14:55:36 -0800

I didn't realize that ICP was still around, really. I always lumped them with the GWAR type bands and never really paid them much mind. I don't particularly care for their music or their lyrics, and so they've never really been a part of my radar. But the fans? Those people are freaking scary. Kiss fans, all dolled up...generally a fun crowd to hang with. Metallica fans? Fairly mild crowd, all things considered. GWAR crowd...a scream. Really, they're great fun to run across before/after shows. Juggalos? At least around here, they're visceral, mean, ill tempered, white power, types of dicks. They push people around, they start fights, they're a pain in the ass to have around. Most local clubs will not allow juggalos in makeup into their establishments, because where there are juggalos, there will be trouble.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 15:00:26 -0800

I'm continually impressed by what jonmc fights for and against. Why? It's not like I'm president of the Juggalo Chapter or something. I just don't care much for smugness and self-satisfaction is all.

By: agropyron

agropyron — Wed, 03 May 2006 15:04:31 -0800

The wikipedia talk page for the Juggalo entry is pretty entertaining reading.

By: bardic

bardic — Wed, 03 May 2006 15:05:41 -0800

Dude, don't make me go all jonmc on you if you start hatin' on GWAR. . . . I'm not feeling smart enough right now to draw the line between "good" and "bad" stupid, but I think you're on to something re: GWAR. The band and the fans themselves seems to be in on the parody, while IMO that's not the case with Juggalos. (I saw them once at a free outdoor show in DC as "RAWG," because no venue in town would put up with the clean-up costs involved in staging one of their shows. That's my rocknroll.)

By: jonmc

jonmc — Wed, 03 May 2006 15:16:50 -0800

I'm not feeling smart enough right now to draw the line between "good" and "bad" stupid, but I think you're on to something re: GWAR. The band and the fans themselves seems to be in on the parody, while IMO that's not the case with Juggalos. Well, yeah and I think most ICP fans are, too. The ones one these pages are just nutters. And like GWAR, the parody is an affectionate one, GWAR seem to actually enjoy Metal and Metalheads, but don't mind poking fun at it, which is cool. I'm just feeling punchy, last night after a really frustrating day on the job that I'm losing in two months (long story not worth it) I went to a bar with a few friends (mefites, even) and we drank some beer and we put on some old metal because like I said, it's good pissed of drinking music. During a maiden number some asshole at the other end of the bar kept making devil horns and then rolling his eyes and sneering. I wanted to slug his ass. So maybe that was rubbing off in here.

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Wed, 03 May 2006 16:02:08 -0800

. I just don't care much for smugness and self-satisfaction is all. Why, I'm smugly self-satisfying myself right this minute. The 'smug' part ain't easy.

By: joseph_elmhurst

joseph_elmhurst — Wed, 03 May 2006 16:37:52 -0800

Just lobbing this into the thread. I know, I know - not indicative of the whole Juggaloniverse, but a prime example of the most common conception.

By: JHarris

JHarris — Wed, 03 May 2006 19:14:00 -0800

Just a word for those out there with insufficent knowledge of music culture, who may be reading this and wondering what the hell everyone's talking about, since it's not been spilled out explicitly yet: Juggalos are fans of the band called Insane Clown Posse. (This has been a special message for all the Hypothetical 'Me's out there who my be reading this.)

By: graventy

graventy — Wed, 03 May 2006 19:49:54 -0800

"Why? It's not like I'm president of the Juggalo Chapter or something. I just don't care much for smugness and self-satisfaction is all." I get that. But you're a little bit like Metafilter's patron saint of lost causes when it comes to entertainment threads. Not that this is a bad thing, they're fun threads to read.

By: bardic

bardic — Wed, 03 May 2006 22:42:35 -0800

Juggalos are actually Darth Maul wannabe LARPers? Now I've seen everything!

By: Tryptophan-5ht

Tryptophan-5ht — Thu, 04 May 2006 17:01:37 -0800

i had a juggalo room mate once. ICP and the beattles was all her ever listened too for a year + so it sort of grew on me. you have to enjoy it with that same HUGE grain of salt that makes pro-wrestling entertaining.

By: dejah420

dejah420 — Thu, 04 May 2006 17:23:59 -0800

Dude, don't make me go all jonmc on you if you start hatin' on GWAR. . . .--bardic Just for the record - dudette. ;) And I've seen GWAR live like 3 times. No haterade here. Not a huge fan, but I get the joke and think it's amusing.

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