Comments on: The Day the Lawn Wasn't Mowed

The Day the Lawn Wasn't Mowed

buriednexttoyou — Thu, 04 May 2006 13:24:24 -0800

By: keswick

keswick — Thu, 04 May 2006 13:27:10 -0800

[must... not... troll... but.... so.... tempting.... body... strong.... will.... weak...] At least it got mowed Tuesday.

By: jefgodesky

jefgodesky — Thu, 04 May 2006 13:30:21 -0800

Why mow?

By: allen.spaulding

allen.spaulding — Thu, 04 May 2006 13:33:31 -0800

Thanks for my daily dose of head shaking. Rea life anticipating the onion in a depressing way.

By: allen.spaulding

allen.spaulding — Thu, 04 May 2006 13:33:49 -0800

er, real life.

By: SteveInMaine

SteveInMaine — Thu, 04 May 2006 13:37:08 -0800

The headline above that, "BIRD FLU Naperville prepares as a mild strain hits New Jersey", baffles as well. Naperville, Illinois is a good 800 miles or so from NJ. Must have been a slow news day.

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Thu, 04 May 2006 13:43:45 -0800

clearly civilization will fall apart if our lawns aren't mowed

By: LarryC

LarryC — Thu, 04 May 2006 13:51:28 -0800

Am I supposed to be outraged at this? I mean, I am willing to be outraged if you guys think I should, but I need clear instructions. CC me the memo.

By: fugitivefromchaingang

fugitivefromchaingang — Thu, 04 May 2006 13:58:07 -0800

you people that see racism in everything tell the rest of us how guilty you think the rest of us should feel. From comments page here. Well, I see racism here. Immigrants = Pool-Boys and Mowers? Are you kidding? And I'm generally someone who feels that the above charge could be levied at quite a few people.

By: kozad

kozad — Thu, 04 May 2006 13:58:58 -0800

BTW, for me, since I mow my own lawn, the headline would read THE DAY THE ROOF DIDN'T GET FIXED. Equally mesmerizing.

By: blacklite

blacklite — Thu, 04 May 2006 14:04:40 -0800

Every time I am mowing a lawn I realize that a civilization is doomed once it starts caring about lawn care.

By: madajb

madajb — Thu, 04 May 2006 14:08:20 -0800

Why mow? I'd like to have a border hedge, or half-acre of brown-eyed susans, but in my household of my wife and I, I was outvoted 1-1. There is definitely something about lawns deep-seated in the American psyche.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Thu, 04 May 2006 14:16:08 -0800

I mow my own lawn thank you. ...yes, I have some Latino blood, why do you ask? LarryC - yes, you should be outraged. Particularly if you are a subscriber of the Naperville Sun. You see, often in journalism you don't get the whole story. Often there is misrepresentation or marginalization of a story. Rarely however is a large complex passionately expressed issue that directly impacts people's lives so tritely represented, offhandedly reversed to concern the impact on the lives of people who are so loosely connected to the issue (casual landscaping service users) and so inappropriately dismissed on the front page of a newspaper. If you understood that, you could also be gratified that you are not as ill-informed or as shallow thinking as the dolts who wrote, edited, and printed the headline are. And as reporters often have a pretense to savvy, that'd put you above average joes as well. If such insight was common to you over a wide variety of media and irritated you to the point that you felt compelled to explain matters to anyone who would listen, you could also be a self-congratulating arrogant asshole who gets away with such things. But you wouldn't be any happier.

By: fugitivefromchaingang

fugitivefromchaingang — Thu, 04 May 2006 14:19:31 -0800

Every time I am mowing a lawn I realize that a civilization is doomed once it starts caring about lawn care. So right on.

By: Orb

Orb — Thu, 04 May 2006 14:20:40 -0800

Does anyone have any idea what the actual story said since he says it's been taken down?

By: keswick

keswick — Thu, 04 May 2006 14:23:06 -0800

Smedleyman: Illegal immigrants do the jobs that Americans don't want to do, like mowing laws. How is pointing this out racist?

By: cell divide

cell divide — Thu, 04 May 2006 14:25:50 -0800

Because the march was about all immigrants, not just illegal ones, and they do many jobs, not just mowing lawns. Even illegal immigrants are involved in a broad variety of jobs, including stuff like delivery services, warehousing, etc.

By: keswick

keswick — Thu, 04 May 2006 14:27:38 -0800

How was the march about "all immigrants" when it clearly is a response to proposed legislation that would only affect illegal immigration?

By: buriednexttoyou

buriednexttoyou — Thu, 04 May 2006 14:28:31 -0800

Does anyone have any idea what the actual story said since he says it's been taken down? They changed the title of the story for their website.

By: fugitivefromchaingang

fugitivefromchaingang — Thu, 04 May 2006 14:31:05 -0800

Because "a day without immigrants" actually means more than just lawns not getting mowed. Because immigrants--legal and illegal--have a huge effect on America's economy beyond lawn care; they're a part of essentially all our communities and all our industries, directly or indirectly. And you don't have to support guest worker provisions, a path to citizenship, or similar policies to acknowledge this.

By: keswick

keswick — Thu, 04 May 2006 14:33:50 -0800

Just because the march organizers are attempting to spin their position by glomming onto legitimate immigrants doesn't mean there is necessarily any similarity between legal and illegal immigrants.

By: elr

elr — Thu, 04 May 2006 14:35:46 -0800

I know this is a really teenage thing to say but I fuckin hate the suburbs, especially the Illinois suburbs. At least their votes don't count much.

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Thu, 04 May 2006 14:47:58 -0800

Illegal immigrants do the jobs that Americans don't want to do, like mowing laws yeah, because all the teenagers in the neighborhood are too busy playing xbox games to be bothered with making a few bucks by mowing the neighbors' lawn one, the headline's wrong because not all hispanic workers are mowing lawns two, you're wrong, because there are LOTS of americans, some of them adults, who make a little extra money by going out and mowing people's lawns ... go to your local supermarket and read the bulletin board and see for yourself

By: mdevore

mdevore — Thu, 04 May 2006 14:48:48 -0800

yes, you should be outraged. Particularly if you are a subscriber of the Naperville Sun I am a subscriber of the Naperville Sun. I am not outraged. Mostly because the newspaper is sufficiently radical-right biased that they burned through their outrage allocation units a while ago. (Rather similar in that respect to a certain political administration...) As the Sun goes, the headline isn't their worst offense of stupidity. But if one needs locally-based news to know what the hell is going on in the city, it's still the only comprehensive source of that type of information. Almost makes one long for the days of yore when every town had multiple papers with differing viewpoints and agendas. I have the newspaper with the controversial headline in the recycle bin, if anyone really wants a copy. First request, first served. Oh, I mow my own lawn too, if that's important.

By: shmegegge

shmegegge — Thu, 04 May 2006 14:50:46 -0800

you're right keswick, no one is affected by illegal immigration except for illegal immigrants. no legal immigrants whatsoever have any reason to care what happens to the illegal ones, and any indication otherwise is malicious spin doctoring performed by the evil organizers of the march.

By: keswick

keswick — Thu, 04 May 2006 14:56:02 -0800

I think we're digressing here. How is the headline racist again?

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Thu, 04 May 2006 15:00:40 -0800

I think we're digressing here. How is the headline racist again? it feeds into a stereotype ... as did your statement that mowing lawns is not a job americans want to do you showed some real ignorance with that statement ... the people who mow the lawns at my old trailer park were not hispanic ... the people who mow the lawns at my apartment building are not hispanic in short, your perception that the headline is not racist is worthless, because you are unable to see your own gross generalizations on this

By: dobie

dobie — Thu, 04 May 2006 15:01:32 -0800

This is kind of a digression, and in no way is an endorsement, but I kind of wish that the Naperville Sun had the balls to keep the story up after they ran with it. It would've made for a fun editorial tract to follow.

By: keswick

keswick — Thu, 04 May 2006 15:04:12 -0800

show me where i mentioned a particular race.

By: The Bellman

The Bellman — Thu, 04 May 2006 15:06:02 -0800

Keswick, I assume you are being deliberately dense, but in case you're not: suppose that African American groups decided to have a one-day hunger strike to bring attention to the increasingly poor treatment of minorities in this country. If the Naperville Sun headline read: "The Day The Fried Chicken And Watermelon Went Uneaten" would you consider that racist? No, I thought not -- after all nowhere does it mention race.

By: cell divide

cell divide — Thu, 04 May 2006 15:06:43 -0800

Just because the march organizers are attempting to spin their position by glomming onto legitimate immigrants doesn't mean there is necessarily any similarity between legal and illegal immigrants. The specific legislation would make aiding and assiting illegal immigrants a crime, which would affect large numbers of legal immigrants (who tend to have family members in the US with different degrees of legal status). I don't think it's just about march organizers glomming onto something, although that's probably true, too.

By: keswick

keswick — Thu, 04 May 2006 15:07:55 -0800

but but but i thought illegal immigrants came from all over? are you saying only mexicans immigrate illegally? now who's racist?

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Thu, 04 May 2006 15:07:58 -0800

show me where i mentioned a particular race. if context is too subtle a concept for you to grasp, perhaps you shouldn't comment

By: shmegegge

shmegegge — Thu, 04 May 2006 15:11:14 -0800

are you saying only mexicans immigrate illegally? now who's racist? you know, this actually defeats your point. there WERE other nationalities at the marches, but the paper chose to make a comment about stereotypically latin illegal immigrants, lumping the entire march into a dismissive portrayal of latin menial laborers. how is that not racist?

By: keswick

keswick — Thu, 04 May 2006 15:11:50 -0800

where does the headline talk about race?

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Thu, 04 May 2006 15:14:48 -0800

where does the headline talk about race? the 2nd paragraph of the article mentions it directly "The Naperville resident, who owns Treemendous Landscape Co. in Plainfield, said about 20 of his workers — or most of his workforce — attended Monday's immigration reform protest in Chicago. Those workers are Hispanic, all of whom either are legal immigrants or are on work visas, and all requested Monday off to attend the demonstration."

By: keswick

keswick — Thu, 04 May 2006 15:15:50 -0800

So the headline is factual, then? Lawns didn't get mowed?

By: The Bellman

The Bellman — Thu, 04 May 2006 15:16:43 -0800

I guess Keswick, the classic troll, is simply going to ignore my hypothetical above, which also doesn't mention race and is clearly racist.

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Thu, 04 May 2006 15:18:12 -0800

So the headline is factual, then? Lawns didn't get mowed? i hearby declare that you've lost the argument ... bye

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Thu, 04 May 2006 15:19:21 -0800

hereby ... man, oh, man, i hate 3rd shift

By: keswick

keswick — Thu, 04 May 2006 15:21:18 -0800

I hereby declare the sky is plaid, but that (probably) doesn't make it so. (Let me me check. Nope.)

By: mullacc

mullacc — Thu, 04 May 2006 15:24:28 -0800

It could've been a great headline if it were an in-depth piece about the vast and important role that illegal immigrants play in our economy and the hardships they face. As a headline to this piece, it's bullshit.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Thu, 04 May 2006 15:29:58 -0800

I didn't argue that the headline was racist. Although The Bellman covered that. I argued (albeit obliquely) that it was self-centered, uninformative about something that has a potential impact on our society and overall missed the point. See, if someone is pissed off about something that the government is doing that affects them, their families and perhaps other people they know and care about and your focus is on (or representational metaphor is about) how it affects a relatively minor lawncare concern? Not to mention glossing over the complexity of the issue? ...yeah, I'd call that inappropriate, self-centered, general assholery. If there was nothing wrong with it, why'd they pull it? And I'll back you mdevore on the local news thing. Maybe the Sun is the Mickey Mantle of the news business. I don't know. But everyone screws up sometimes. In this case the Sun did. Also, Keswick - I'm an American, I mow the lawn. I like mowing the lawn....that'd be a hole in the "jobs Americans don't want to do" argument. Frick man, that's just plain stupid. I was going to cut you some slack, but no - look, it's not that illegals do the jobs Americans don't want to do it's that companies don't want to pay Americans to do those jobs and exploit the labor. If someone hadn't mentioned it on CNN and Fox I'd probably not toss it at ya, but c'mon, your on the freaking internet. Open your eyes. And hell, I have my opinions, but I'm not even taking a side on the issue itself here - just that the Sun crapped all over themselves with that headline. Maybe the marchers are completely wrong and maybe the government should do something? Maybe the marchers are totally right and there is a lot of suffering that can be prevented? Maybe it's a human rights thing? Or maybe someone is lazy? Or some folks are overreacting? Or maybe it's something that the cops should put down and we should bolt our doors - But we'll never fucking know it because the only piece of it that concerns our local newspaper (apparently) is that our fucking lawns aren't being mowed. And I'm from the Illinois suburbs, if that's important.

By: Vaska

Vaska — Thu, 04 May 2006 15:32:50 -0800

So which is it Keswick? Racist, dumb fuck or troll?

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Thu, 04 May 2006 15:35:08 -0800

"I hereby declare the sky is plaid, but that (probably) doesn't make it so. (Let me me check. Nope.)" - keswick Define racism. I don't think anyone's on the same page as you are on this. So what are your terms?

By: undule

undule — Thu, 04 May 2006 15:48:48 -0800

I love this headline and don't get the indignation routine. As for Vaska's wild-eyed blurb above, I see this alot. If you don't want a shitload of illegal immigrants flooding into your country daily, you're a racist. This rings about as true as the "criticize Isreal/you're an anti-semite" argument, or perhaps as true as the "I eat tire irons/Yardarms are smoking hot" argument. RE: Smedley look, it's not that illegals do the jobs Americans don't want to do it's that companies don't want to pay Americans to do those jobs and exploit the labor Right on! I can't believe this sentiment rarely, if ever, appears in the media debate on the subject. Frustrating.

By: Vaska

Vaska — Thu, 04 May 2006 15:59:56 -0800

By: nonmerci

nonmerci — Thu, 04 May 2006 16:15:41 -0800

I was going to cut you some slack, but no - look, it's not that illegals do the jobs Americans don't want to do it's that companies don't want to pay Americans to do those jobs and exploit the labor. If someone hadn't mentioned it on CNN and Fox I'd probably not toss it at ya, but c'mon, your on the freaking internet. Open your eyes. Smedleyman wins.

By: LarryC

LarryC — Thu, 04 May 2006 16:18:50 -0800

you could also be a self-congratulating arrogant asshole Sign me up! I am so in!

By: Orb

Orb — Thu, 04 May 2006 16:27:01 -0800

What I see is a headline in a local newspaper talking about a local situation that mostly only effected one local business ... a landscaper ... when many of his staff wanted the day off to march. I don't see that the headline or the article itself is saying that all immigrants, illegal or otherwise, are pool boys and landscapers. I am just not feeling the outrage or seeing the racism. One landscaping company shut down for a day in one town somewhere in the USA while it's immigrant staff marched in downtown, and yes ... some lawns probably didn't get mowed on Monday (at least not by that landscaping company).

By: Kwantsar

Kwantsar — Thu, 04 May 2006 16:32:56 -0800

Smedleyman wins. Oh yeah? If you work for $10/day in Mexico, that's fine, but if you work for five times that in the US, you're "exploited"?

By: a3matrix

a3matrix — Thu, 04 May 2006 16:33:00 -0800

I just mowed my own lawn. Did I steal an illegal immigrants job? Sorry hombre. My bad.

By: scrump

scrump — Thu, 04 May 2006 16:37:30 -0800

First they came for smedleyman, and I said nothing, because I was not smedleyman...

By: keswick

keswick — Thu, 04 May 2006 16:41:11 -0800

Remember kids! Anybody is against illegal immigration is racist!

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Thu, 04 May 2006 16:43:25 -0800

Maid Delays Bus Service

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Thu, 04 May 2006 16:44:40 -0800

"Anybody is against illegal immigration is racist!" - Keswick. So...that's your definition then? I asked you a straight question.

By: keswick

keswick — Thu, 04 May 2006 16:48:16 -0800

I define racism as the belief that one race is inherently superior in someway over another. The headline strikes me at worst as a case of insensitivity, which is way too often lumped in with racism.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Thu, 04 May 2006 16:51:02 -0800

Escargot Resturant Relocated

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Thu, 04 May 2006 16:54:27 -0800

"...racism as the belief that one race is inherently superior in someway over another." Why do Americans not want to do the jobs illegal immigrants will do? /by the way - go fuck yourself keswick.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Thu, 04 May 2006 16:55:43 -0800

I'm sorry, saying "go fuck yourself" was insensitive. I apologise. Did you mind? /My apology is earnest here. It was purely for illustration.

By: JeffL

JeffL — Thu, 04 May 2006 17:02:04 -0800

Why do Americans not want to do the jobs illegal immigrants will do? Uh, because other jobs pay better? I mowed lots of yards, and did lots of manual labor, 20 years ago; I don't do that sort of work anymore, not because I'm "too good" to do it, but simply because I can make more money doing other things. Nothing racist about that, I think.

By: keswick

keswick — Thu, 04 May 2006 17:02:09 -0800

I really don't mind :) Americans don't want to do the jobs illegal immigrants will do because they feel the pay does not reflect the work. Why does the pay not reflect the work? Because there are people willing to work for less. Why are they willing to work for less? Because they are here illegally and wish to send the money home. Why do they accept less money? Because the employer could call la migra on them or whatever-- illegal immigrants have less avenues to redress wrongs. If there are no illegals, the employers will have to pay a decent wage and Americans will take the job. Who benefits the most from illegal immigration? Obviously not working class Americans. Illegal immigrants? Sure, they have higher wages than they would back home, but the real winner is the big business / the oligarchical elite / whatever you want to call it.

By: cell divide

cell divide — Thu, 04 May 2006 17:08:51 -0800

Keswick why didn't you just write that in the first place instead of just being annoying? You have legitimate points, you need to control your rutting, I mean writing.

By: drstein

drstein — Thu, 04 May 2006 17:10:18 -0800

"Why do Americans not want to do the jobs illegal immigrants will do?" Dunno, but watch a few episodes of "Dirty Jobs" and you'll very quickly see that there isn't "a job an American won't do." :D

By: keswick

keswick — Thu, 04 May 2006 17:13:09 -0800

a) because it's fun being annoying b) because even when you argue those points, people still call you a racist. i don't even discuss this issue in r/l because of that, and i'd waqer a lot of people are the same way.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Thu, 04 May 2006 17:19:20 -0800

"I really don't mind :)" Good man. I'll cede the nuances of your argument, keswick. We fundamentally agree on the overall outcome. I suspect that's what lots of folks are upset about on whatever side. And insensitivity doesn't help things. Damned if I know how to solve it. Again, got my ideas, but we'd be in this thread all month if we started debating those. "Uh, because other jobs pay better?" - JeffL Why do they pay better? I'll cut to the exciting bit - why do black people make less than white folks for the same work? Why are women paid less for the same job? Why is that ok with what is basically the same 'class' of people ('cause they're doin' the same job)? See keswick's bottom line above and ask if there is a percentage in paying a privileged group less than they should get, but more than somebody else.

By: Zinger

Zinger — Thu, 04 May 2006 17:23:21 -0800

I don't know the headline was rascist so much as it was condescending, and I think that's what pissed people off. From what I gather, the day was supposed to be a grand statement that would draw attention to the issues around immigration. To say it was just "the day the lawn wasn't mowed' seems to trivialize the whole thing. It's like the paper, and the surburbanites it represents, were saying "big woo" or worse, "Oh yes, immigrant issues. Yes dear, I feel your pain. Oh and you missed a spot over there."

By: Serial Killer Slumber Party

Serial Killer Slumber Party — Thu, 04 May 2006 17:44:18 -0800

I understand keswick's point that the headline is not expressly racist, but I think that's a very naive viewpoint. The person who wrote it certainly didn't do so thinking "well when someone reads it, they will definately remind themselves that many races make up immigrants". Given the context, you would have to be a pretty poor journalist not to realise people are going to make a Latino-connection. And I agree with Zinger, it certainly trivialises the whole thing.

By: undule

undule — Thu, 04 May 2006 17:54:42 -0800

Undule, did you even read the Keswick quote I picked out? Lemme take the specific bit out for you "...Why should we have to absorb population from nations that can't control their rutting?" That's glaringly racist to anyone with a bit of common sense. Well no, it's not racist. Nationalist, perhaps, almost certainly in fact, but racist? That's a stretch -- that quote doesn't even denote racialism of any kind, he even says "nations." Now, I could undestand if you thought the concept of national sovereignty was inherently racist -- is this what you're getting at? NOTE: Say straw man some more, maybe call up a Godwin or two, it's always such a glowing reward for everyone concerned .

By: hydrophonic

hydrophonic — Thu, 04 May 2006 18:11:53 -0800

Kwanstar: Oh yeah? If you work for $10/day in Mexico, that's fine, but if you work for five times that in the US, you're "exploited"? keswick: Why do they accept less money? Because the employer could call la migra on them There's your exploitation right there.

By: Ethereal Bligh

Ethereal Bligh — Thu, 04 May 2006 18:33:16 -0800

"Racist" has become in everyday usage a catch-all term describing any sort of bigotry connected with ethnicity. Which makes sense, being as "ethnicity" has meaning while "race" does not. But I digress. So if we're over the hump of "racism", or at least if you will allow me to switch to the expression "ethnic bigotry" (or, hell, how about plain ole' "bigotry"?) then I think it's obvious that the headline is bigoted. There is obvious humor in the headline, and that humor is based in the irony of comparing thousands of people marching and taking things very seriously against some lawns not getting mowed. Translation: "their concerns are trivial, and they're not 'our' problems anyway". It was making light of the concerns of an ethnic minority by utilizing an ethnic stereotype about that minority. Like all stereotypes, there's truth in it. That doesn't make it any less a stereotype, or any less mean-spirited. And you know all this, you're just being disengenuous. By the way, comparative advantage is heavily about specialization of labor and implicitly favors labor mobility as being as important as trade. One of the many different postulated reasons for why the US has been unusually productive compared to the European economies is that our population is extremely mobile—people will, and often do, move across the country to find work. One of the things that mobility like that accomplishes is that it eases the pain and shortens the length of structural adjustments when a region that has a predominating industry is replaced by another. Almost by definition, the sorts of jobs that illegal immigrants do are jobs that even the poorest citizens are "overqualified" for. A lot of those jobs don't require literacy, for example. While some loser teenager who plays video games all day is hardly the model of a qualified worker, he is qualified by his literacy to do the sorts of menial jobs that require it. Given the investment that the public has made in managing to get that kid through at least 10 years of schooling, it makes more sense to utilize what little skills he gained instead of, for example, picking cotton. And whether you want to look at it wealth created or the waste of wealth avoided, the simple truth is that these sorts of labor arrangements benefit everyone, not the least the migrant worker who cannot feed his family on what little work he can find back home. One of the single largest souce of funds going into Mexico are dollars sent back home by illegal and legal immigrants. Mexico isn't at the botton of the developing world pile and no small reason for that is because its relationship with the US. I don't really care if you oppose that illegal immgrant's work in the US on the basis that you think that an American is somehow more deserving, or if it's simple racism, or if it's the result of a nearly-universal ignorance of economics...because whatever the reasons, by opposing immigration, including illegal immigration, you are opposing the increasing well-being of all of us, but most specifically those most in need of it.

By: JeffL

JeffL — Thu, 04 May 2006 18:37:09 -0800

Smedleyman, the reason some jobs pay better is simply because the market dictates that they pay better. If enough people are willing to do hard work for low pay (as it seems many Mexican illegal immigrants are), then that will drive down those wages. I honestly don't see the inherent racism - that's how the system works no matter what color you are.

By: eustacescrubb

eustacescrubb — Thu, 04 May 2006 18:43:29 -0800

Why now? Lawn Song

By: eustacescrubb

eustacescrubb — Thu, 04 May 2006 18:44:46 -0800

er, that's mow.

By: Vaska

Vaska — Thu, 04 May 2006 19:25:42 -0800

No Undule, that's entirely not what I'm getting at. As Etheral Bligh has so excellently put, there is such a thing as implied meaning, and in this particular case implied racism. I've heard the frankly offensive 'rutting' argument tossed about in regards to the Chinese and Latinos all the time. Keswick simply worded his statement so that he, or others, could back-pedal later and claim with wide-eyed-innocence that there was nothing in racist in the phrase and that we terrible denizens are unfairly persecuting them. NOTE: I'll throw the phrase 'straw-man' around wherever it's appropriate. Here's a few more for flavor: 'deliberately obtuse' and 'wilfully blind'.

By: keswick

keswick — Thu, 04 May 2006 19:29:03 -0800

Actually, I got the rutting thing from a Bill Hicks' routine on "white trash" and thought it worked nicely in this situation. "Can ya all stop rutting just for a moment so we can sort out this food, air deal?!?!?" Really, why do people think they have a direct hotline to my brain?

By: eritain

eritain — Thu, 04 May 2006 20:28:14 -0800

Got nothing to contribute to the slugfest, but I'd just like to say that, for me, the strongest effect of the headline was that I am now imagining Patricia Neal stopping a relatively short killer robot from outer space by stammering at it in Spanish.

By: sic

sic — Fri, 05 May 2006 01:57:47 -0800

Well said EB. This is one of those issues that is going to hurt the Republican party, because the monied elite of the Party know that immigrant labor is vital to the economy, yet the populist base is historically gung-ho about "defending" the borders. Now that the Bush administration has scared the populist republicans with the constant threat of terrorism, they have become much more active in wanting to defend the borders; minutemen, indeed. This from a president who had snowed a lot of legal, voting Latin American immigrants (a group that is predominantly conservative) that he cares about them. Wonder how they will vote in the next election? I really think this issue is a big loser for the Republicans, whether they go ahead with this legislation or they axe it.

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Fri, 05 May 2006 04:41:39 -0800

Really, why do people think they have a direct hotline to my brain? that would be like hooking up a tin can with a string to a rock

By: dobie

dobie — Fri, 05 May 2006 05:03:46 -0800

I think this this should help the discussion along nicely.

By: fungible

fungible — Fri, 05 May 2006 06:50:34 -0800

Man, I hate Illinois Nazis. BTW, keswick said at the top of the thread he was trolling. What part didn't you understand?

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Fri, 05 May 2006 13:21:28 -0800

"I honestly don't see the inherent racism - that's how the system works no matter what color you are." -posted by JeffL Got google? Do ten minutes of research . (for example: according to the Census Bureau white high school graduates earn $2 more an hour than black high school graduates - race and sex also affects welfare benefits ) This isn't touchy-feely hug a tree let's not be racists crap. I consider my education and skills as an investment and a more valuable one than many straight capital investments (I produce more "wealth" proportionally). But my return on that investment is devalued and the gimmick that's being slipped in to make me like it is that I am (as a "white" albeit hairy person) getting more than some other guy who isn't. If it was straight market forces I wouldn't have a beef with it. If some black guy is better trained, better educated and more skilled than I am, he should make more. But the social concerns skew the value of the skills, so the value of my skills are improperly weighted as well - get it? I very much enjoy free market competition. I'm all for it. If I'm smarter and work harder than the next guy (and I usually am) I get more take home. If he's more savvy than ok, he or she gets it. But the game is rigged. Ever heard the phrase bad money drives good money out of circulation? I'm not saying I'm completely right on all particulars, it's just my perspective. But I know when something is biting my ass, and something is. We can debate about the nature of that something, but you have to look at it from your own perspective. Doesn't seem to me like you've done a lot of thinking on the subject. Maybe I'm wrong. But I'm not casting aspersions. You want to make a profit on something you have to argue value. One guy wants the value as high as possible, the other guy wants it low. Right now in terms of labor and wages the guys devaluing those things are winning the argument. I think we should all be asking why.