Comments on: CIA Secret Prisons Exposed

CIA Secret Prisons Exposed

Postroad — Thu, 11 May 2006 10:30:59 -0800

CIA Secret Prisons Exposed The disappeared: Are they dead? Are they alive? Ask Congress. Ask the president.

By: rougy

rougy — Thu, 11 May 2006 10:34:36 -0800

And don't hold your breath waiting for an answer....

By: Artw

Artw — Thu, 11 May 2006 10:38:09 -0800

We need Jon Stewarts venn diagram of secrecy and accountability...

By: uncle harold

uncle harold — Thu, 11 May 2006 10:46:22 -0800

Well the fuss made about it in Europe is smaller than the article suggests. There is an amount of evidence that borders on proof, but no European politician has the balls to actually stand up to the US.

By: Artw

Artw — Thu, 11 May 2006 10:53:47 -0800

There's a lot of European politicians whoa re actually complicit in this, and therefore unwilling to do much. the European populace, on the other hand, really care about this kind of thing, much more so than Americans, and are likely to kick up a major fuss as and when details emerge.

By: pdb

pdb — Thu, 11 May 2006 11:03:10 -0800

Are they dead? Are they alive?...Ask the President. postroad, you owe me a new monitor. And a new cup of coffee. That's comedy GOLD, my friend.

By: StrasbourgSecaucus

StrasbourgSecaucus — Thu, 11 May 2006 11:22:20 -0800

why do you support secret prisons?

By: Help Me Impeach Bush

Help Me Impeach Bush — Thu, 11 May 2006 12:18:51 -0800

Secret prisons? Warrantless spying on American citizens? Extraordinary renditioning? Just another day in Bush's America, where up is down, black is white, and torture and secret prisons are "spreading freedom".

By: C.Batt

C.Batt — Thu, 11 May 2006 12:45:14 -0800

Soon everyone will be encouraged to report their neighbours activities to the Department of Homeland Security, or some such... brb... someone's at the door.

By: russilwvong

russilwvong — Thu, 11 May 2006 13:03:17 -0800

--in an explosive, documented April 5 Amnesty International report—"Below the Radar: Secret Flights to Torture and 'Disappearance' "—there is direct testimony, for the first time, from three men who have been salted away in these secret CIA prisons. Below the Radar.

By: puke & cry

puke & cry — Thu, 11 May 2006 13:38:16 -0800

I don't know about you guys, but my favorite part about this thing was frist's reaction to the leak, calling for an investigation. So essentially his reaction was "Secret prisons? Who told you about our secret prisons?!?"

By: chunking express

chunking express — Thu, 11 May 2006 14:07:33 -0800

That Amnesty Report should have been an FPP here. Holy fuck.

By: Help Me Impeach Bush

Help Me Impeach Bush — Thu, 11 May 2006 14:24:44 -0800

So essentially his reaction was "Secret prisons? Who told you about our secret prisons?!?"

It was the same with the illegal NSA wiretaps. Instead of stopping the program, or at least modifying it to make it legal, they simply threatened to punish the whistleblowers.

By: brina

brina — Thu, 11 May 2006 14:28:36 -0800

Careful all -- say much more and we'll all be on the FBI wiretapping list. That's what happens when you, you know, object to stuff that is blatantly unconstitutional and inhumane.

By: Lee Marvin

Lee Marvin — Thu, 11 May 2006 14:32:04 -0800

Interesting...this post has been up for over 4 hours, and not a single member of the (admittedly small) MeFi Bush "Truth" Squad have dropped in to offer their views on this. Has the American mainstream press ignored this so much that the Republican strategists haven't bothered to offer their talking points on it yet? Seriously, this is beyond disgusting. I want someone who actually thinks this is a good idea (or whose blind cult of personality allegiances dictate that they at least claim that they think it's a good idea) to explain to me how this is defensible, or even conscionable. And just to stave off what I imagine the inevitable response will be: No, treating human beings worse than animals infected with virulent unknown diseases is not a necessary and determinate condition for America's security.

By: neek

neek — Thu, 11 May 2006 14:53:45 -0800

I'd like to play devil's advocate and defend these actions by the American government, but I can't. The only excuse I can think of is: they are so concerned with the safety of America that they don't care how far they go. But even that rings false.

By: IronLizard

IronLizard — Thu, 11 May 2006 16:16:05 -0800

I want someone who actually thinks this is a good idea (or whose blind cult of personality allegiances dictate that they at least claim that they think it's a good idea) to explain to me how this is defensible, or even conscionable. It's all Hollywood's fault. First it corrupted our kids and turned them into little killers, now it's twisting the minds of our impressionable, softheaded little government. You can't blame grown adults for buying into the sensationalistic images they're bombarded with on the big screen. Why, you should see how much fun they have with 'GI Electricshocktothetesticles Man' and his gang of torturing do-gooders.

By: IronLizard

IronLizard — Thu, 11 May 2006 16:16:41 -0800

Soon to be in every Happy Meal!

By: MidasMulligan

MidasMulligan — Thu, 11 May 2006 17:01:00 -0800

or whose blind cult of personality allegiances dictate that they at least claim that they think it's a good idea ... Won't happen here ... this is the place where "blind cult allegiances" dictate that the Bush administration be trashed at least once a day. Actually, I'm sorta waiting for the Big Bue to just go ahead and partner with the Village Voice ... you could program it so that articles would automatically become FPPs, then everyone could pile on and talk about how evil Bush was. Save everyone the trouble of searching for articles and posting them.

By: Malor

Malor — Thu, 11 May 2006 17:08:41 -0800

It's weird how they don't show up except en masse... it's unusual to see just one administration apologist here. On the worst stuff, there's usually dead silence, and then several of them chime in at once on the slightly less bad stuff. I'm not sure if it's collusion, them just repeating talking points, or if they're undergoing some kind of strange cognitive dissonance where they ignore the truly awful stuff. I just don't get it.

By: gesamtkunstwerk

gesamtkunstwerk — Thu, 11 May 2006 17:23:55 -0800

I don't know Neek. Are they so concerned about us? Something has happened to them that defies reason. These camps were probably build by the Soviets. I don't have much faith that the enemy now is as any more a threat than it was in the purges. The only things that seems to have changed is the nationality of the jailors and prisoners.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Thu, 11 May 2006 18:04:03 -0800

For such a hot issue, all of MeFi is pretty quiet. I suspect the public is burnt out: there has been so much bad news for so goddamn long now that it's all becoming a boring blur. It's exhausting to be outraged all the time. And soon enough, it becomes easier to just ignore it all than to try to deal with it. And thus, I suppose, are tyrannical- or dictatorial-style governments able to form: a slow dripping of evil until the pool is filled and the people are kept so busy trying not to drown that they can't deal with the cause of all their problems. This fall, you guys gotta start turning off the tap. You gotta elect honest, high-integrity do-gooders into office, and hold their feet to the fire, and make them clean up your entire government, top to bottom.

By: zpousman

zpousman — Thu, 11 May 2006 18:10:50 -0800

By: brina

brina — Thu, 11 May 2006 18:38:51 -0800

Many hours later: Sorry, I meant "NSA," not "FBI."

By: odinsdream

odinsdream — Thu, 11 May 2006 18:55:22 -0800

Won't happen here ... this is the place where "blind cult allegiances" dictate that the Bush administration be trashed at least once a day. Name one thing this administration has done that they both A) set out to do beforehand and B) didn't entirely fuck up.

By: Nquire

Nquire — Thu, 11 May 2006 18:59:21 -0800

I suspect the public is burnt out: there has been so much bad news for so goddamn long now that it's all becoming a boring blur. It's exhausting to be outraged all the time. And soon enough, it becomes easier to just ignore it all than to try to deal with it. It would be easier to be outraged if it actually accomplished something. Congress doesn't care if we're outraged or not. There is absolutely no oversight of the executive branch by congress, despite several actions by the administration that are, at the very least, legally "grey" and deserving of further investigation. Easier to just wait until November and vote, since it's obvious that the current representatives in office won't actually "represent".

By: MidasMulligan

MidasMulligan — Thu, 11 May 2006 19:18:31 -0800

Malor, all voices are welcome here. Midas' especially. Midas we miss you so please come back more often. There are lots of questions we have about being a conservative these days. I mean this in all sincerity. Without you and den Beste and aaron commenting, this really does bercome an echo chamber. To tell you the truth (and I do mean this - also - in all sincerity) - MeFi really doesn't want conservatives here. There were several (conservatives/libertarians) here a while back ... but it reached the point where it became clear that an echo chamber actually was exactly what the majority here wanted. I look in on MeFi now and then - see the daily anti-Bush posts, and notice that they now (usually) have a dozen or two posts in them (many of them one or two lines), in which everyone agrees that yes, Bush is still evil today. There was a time when this really was a more interesting place. It was actually worth it, now and then, to try to spend some time and real thought articulating a different - but equally well reasoned - perspective. A few folks always responded with demeaning comments, but others seemed to really be interested. (Not that they agreed, just seemed like they genuinely wanted a spirited, respectful debate ... it is what democratic discourse is supposed to be composed of). I actually learned a lot here. And I think, now and then, I introduced something new to the board. But those days really are over. For every one that really wants a more diverse Mefi, there are ten voices that will call anyone that dares argue against the status quo here an "apologist", or just a mindless part of a "blind cult of personality allegiances". Even hinting that just maybe the Village Voice may not be entirely objective and disinterested is to grab a rugby ball and invite a scrum. And simply assume there will be a few sucker punches at the bottom of the pile. So the board has chased everyone away anyone with even a slightly different viewpoint. Much, I believe, to the detriment of Mefi - both what it was, and what it could be.

By: Joseph Gurl

Joseph Gurl — Thu, 11 May 2006 19:22:36 -0800

What happens in Djibouti stays in Djibouti

By: Lee Marvin

Lee Marvin — Thu, 11 May 2006 20:35:37 -0800

Coming back to my computer now, a few hours after my previous post, I recognize how obnoxious it was; having just read that Amnesty report, all of my frustration got poured into that post. That being said, despite my blithely condescending tone, I really did (and still do) want someone who thinks the prisons are defensible to explain to me how to parse that logic together. It just doesn't make any sense to me. The "blind cult of personality" comment was directed at the fact that I don't even think most conservatives are with Bush on this one. As Al Neuharth, the conservative founder of USA Today, argued the other day, Bush's 31 and 32 percent polls numbers are about as low as they can go; to paraphrase ol' Mr. Lincoln's well-worn adage, this 31% is the "some of the people" who are gettin' fooled "all of the time". I guess I'll go check out Michelle Malkin's website, hopefully she's fired off some missive about this by now.

By: y2karl

y2karl — Thu, 11 May 2006 21:07:26 -0800

It was actually worth it, now and then, to try to spend some time and real thought articulating a different - but equally well reasoned - perspective. Sneeringly bellowed in more bold, italics and ALL CAPS than a Church of the Subgenius handbill.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Thu, 11 May 2006 21:08:20 -0800

There was a time when this really was a more interesting place. It was actually worth it, now and then, to try to spend some time and real thought articulating a different - but equally well reasoned - perspective. There is nothing interesting to be said about Bush and his administration: more than 70% of the country is in agreement on the subject. Everything that can be said has been said: action is the only thing left, and that ain't done by using MeFi. I wholly agree with you: Bush is boring. I actually learned a lot here. And I think, now and then, I introduced something new to the board. I agree. I think you provided a unique insight into the thinking of a powerful group of people of whom it is in our best interest to thoroughly understand, so as to best provide a sane counterbalance to what I see as a dangerous focus on self to the detriment of the greater good. What subject matter would better suit your interests? I can make a special effort to keep an eye out for an opportunity to make an FPP that brings you in. (Be warned: I don't make many FPPs. But, hey, it can't hurt to say what you want.)

By: beth

beth — Thu, 11 May 2006 21:24:36 -0800

You gotta elect honest, high-integrity do-gooders Whoa there, fella. What makes you think people like that can actually get on the ballot? The only people who succeed at politics are the ones that sell their souls to do it. It's how the game works. No funding, no advertising, voters don't even know about you. And what makes you think that, if such people somehow miraculously had a following, voters knew about them, and cast their votes that way, that the votes would actually be recorded and tabulated correctly? It ain't gonna happen. This is the land of Diebold. I know the whole voting to make things better thing has its charms, I'm just too cynical to buy it anymore. Even if you had decent candidates (and a fair vote count), voters are too stupid to see through the lies and slick advertising / demagoguery. The word "democracy", in ancient Greece, was a pejorative. For a reason.

By: Freen

Freen — Thu, 11 May 2006 21:25:38 -0800

So, Midas, your cool with the fact that someone with deep government connections could figure out exactly who you were calling, when and how often? Must be great for picking stocks.

By: Freen

Freen — Thu, 11 May 2006 21:38:18 -0800

It seems you have bought into the idea of political "teams" instead of concepts of right and wrong. You haven't yet made a comment on whether or not wiretapping is good or bad, only about the partisan politics of it. Politics is the attempt to remove the debate over actual relevant issues from the public sphere and reduce decision procedures to simple brand evangelism. There are many brand evangelists here on Mefi, many more for Brand "D" than Brand "R", and that bias is most decidedly represented in the content and discussion of the site. However, you must realize, particularly in your unwillingness to debate issues instead of "brand" that you do nothing to help your brand of choice. I suggest, in the future, if you are willing to engage in discourse about politics, you refrain from brand related discourse and stick to decision procedures, ethics, and pragmatism. Understand that if your only point is about brands of political evangelism, you are just as guilty as the rest, and moreover, are destructive of your own cause. Refusing to speak about issues, and only focusing on branding feels just as repugnant for adherents of both sides. That said, I ask you this: Do you, or do you not support a government mandated program to record all telecommunications between all american citizens? If so, why?

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Thu, 11 May 2006 22:03:55 -0800

I know the whole voting to make things better thing has its charms, I'm just too cynical to buy it anymore. If that is the case, then you need to come up with an effective alternative plan, because if all y'all don't do something the worst is going to happen.

By: y2karl

y2karl — Thu, 11 May 2006 22:04:14 -0800

*crickets*

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Thu, 11 May 2006 22:09:46 -0800

As for "branding," this is an international community. I am not a Democrat. Hell, from my political standpoint, I get the impression that the Democrats are toward the right of what I see as centre. What MeFi does have is a population of smart technology users. This place requires a certain level of technical competence, writing and communication skills, and tolerance for noise in order to participate. Almost by definition, such a population is going to skew toward social liberty and the concepts of social duty (imo, aka "sustainability"). The truth, as always, is probably somewhere in between the extremes.

By: Mr. Six

Mr. Six — Fri, 12 May 2006 02:21:57 -0800

Name one thing this administration has done that they both A) set out to do beforehand and B) didn't entirely fuck up. Getting re-elected, even after allowing 9/11 to happen on their watch?

By: y2karl

y2karl — Fri, 12 May 2006 06:46:42 -0800

Even hinting that just maybe the Village Voice may not be entirely objective and disinterested is to grab a rugby ball and invite a scrum.

Nat Hentoff (born June 10, 1925) is a civil libertarian, free speech absolutist, pro-life advocate, anti-death penalty advocate, jazz critic, historian, biographer and anecdotist, and columnist for the Village Voice, Legal Times, Washington Times, The Progressive, Editor & Publisher, Free Inquiry and Jewish World Review. He was named as one of six 2004 NEA Jazz Masters, the first non-musician to win this prestigious award... Hentoff's views on journalistic responsibility and the rights of Americans to write, think and speak freely are expressed in his weekly column, and he has come to be acknowledged as a foremost authority in the area of First Amendment defense. He is also an expert on the Bill of Rights, the Supreme Court, student rights and education...

Nat Hentoff is not the Village Voice. Nat Hentoff writes a column for the Village Voice. Read the article-- then try to spend some time and real thought articulating a different - but equally well reasoned - perspective. As if.

By: chunking express

chunking express — Fri, 12 May 2006 07:19:48 -0800

I look in on MeFi now and then - see the daily anti-Bush posts, and notice that they now (usually) have a dozen or two posts in them (many of them one or two lines), in which everyone agrees that yes, Bush is still evil today. So Bush isn't bad after all, it was just those jerks at Metafilter being Jerks. Sonsofbitches.

By: Freen

Freen — Fri, 12 May 2006 12:59:24 -0800

The Silence is truly deafening. Glad to know that you really don't give a f#$% about the issues, and only that people are talking about the issues. Think about what it means that such a simple questions as "Do you or do you not approve of a government mandated record of every single telephone call made by every single citizen?" becomes partisan?