Comments on: Vote Yes on Proposition 12

Vote Yes on Proposition 12

FeldBum — Tue, 30 May 2006 07:59:51 -0800

Vote Yes on Proposition 12? As in proposing a 12-year-old. Dutch pedophiles form a political party (English Wiki link)
Of course, they are not a one-idea party. They also favor "consensual sex between animals and humans".

By: cytherea

cytherea — Tue, 30 May 2006 08:05:05 -0800

How do you propose a twelve-year-old? Is that like "Hans, what shall we use to stop-up the dyke?" "I propose the twelve-year-old, Grettle."

By: languagehat

languagehat — Tue, 30 May 2006 08:06:15 -0800

Yuk. I thought this had to be a fake, but apparently it's not. (Link to Google cache so you don't have to visit revolting "Ped Community" site.) Still, it's just a publicity stunt with no conceivable impact on real life, unless the Dutch are a lot dumber than I think they are.

By: Heminator

Heminator — Tue, 30 May 2006 08:07:23 -0800

Quick, make Rick Santorum the Dutch ambassador!

By: Divine_Wino

Divine_Wino — Tue, 30 May 2006 08:08:34 -0800

Bark once if you want to go for a walk, bark twice if you want to throw on some Barry White and do some humpin'. Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.

By: FeldBum

FeldBum — Tue, 30 May 2006 08:08:44 -0800

How do you propose a twelve-year-old? Is that like "Hans, what shall we use to stop-up the dyke?" "I propose the twelve-year-old, Grettle." Ah yes, I meant propositioning. There went my pun :(

By: blucevalo

blucevalo — Tue, 30 May 2006 08:24:21 -0800

Quick, make Rick Santorum the Dutch ambassador! I second the nomination.

By: Meatbomb

Meatbomb — Tue, 30 May 2006 08:25:01 -0800

The broadcast of pornography should be allowed on daytime television, with only violent pornography limited to the late evening, according to the party. I am all for daytime porn, not so sure about the need for "violent pornography" at all, though. Toddlers should be given sex education and youths aged 16 and up should be allowed to appear in pornographic films and prostitute themselves. Sex with animals should be allowed although abuse of animals should remain illegal, the NVD said. And these guys are radicals? Sounds pretty milquetoast to me.

By: matteo

matteo — Tue, 30 May 2006 08:26:26 -0800

I propose a 12 year old Nebbiolo Prunotto, but 1995 was a better year for many Piedmont winemakers

By: three blind mice

three blind mice — Tue, 30 May 2006 08:31:41 -0800

The Charity, Freedom and Diversity (NVD) party said on its Web site it would be officially registered Wednesday, proclaiming: "We are going to shake The Hague awake!" Charity, Freedom, and Diversity. Indeed.

By: borq

borq — Tue, 30 May 2006 08:58:56 -0800

let them group: that way they'll float to the surface and can be watched.. doing something with what they say: no way! plz remove 'amsterdam' as a tag here, don't want my hometown linked to this sjizzle.. Amsterdam != Netherlands

By: StickyCarpet

StickyCarpet — Tue, 30 May 2006 08:59:51 -0800

I'll not click on languagehat's link for fear that my computers will soon be carted out the door and I'll be lumped together with Pete Townsend. I do know of a case where a prosecutorial target was done in when a cooperating witness called him up and said "hey, you gotta check out these wild pictures I found online, can I email them to you?" Two hours later he's in custody, now sentenced to a couple of years.

By: keepoutofreach

keepoutofreach — Tue, 30 May 2006 09:05:21 -0800

Although their agenda is clearly objectionable and probably a publicity stunt, you must put it in context. Lowering the age of consent to 12 can be seen as a shocking thing in the US but in other countries the age of consent is already very low. It's 13 in Spain and Japan, 10 in Romania, 14 in italy and many other countries. I lived in Amsterdam for seven years and in the city center you can have a McDonald's and a sex shops on the same steet. And I saw perfectly healthy and happy kids eating their happy meal while walking in front of a window with extremely explicit sexual images. I don't necessarily agree with the party's agenda - although I have nothing against daytime pornography and I think 16 as the minimum age to appear in porn movies is not such a heretic statement - but I find the right wing christian conservative agenda much more shocking and unnatural.

By: jack_mo

jack_mo — Tue, 30 May 2006 09:08:23 -0800

free train travel for all. Hee, I can just imagine the policy meeting: Paedophile Chairman: So, now that we've settled all the having sex with children and animals policies, does anyone have anything to add? Paedophile Trainspotter: Free train travel for all! Paedophile Chairman: Brilliant idea, added to the manifesto. Anyone fancy a pint? Or some sex with children?

By: mischief

mischief — Tue, 30 May 2006 09:11:04 -0800

12? Hell, I don't have the patience to deal with anyone under 30.

By: ZenMasterThis

ZenMasterThis — Tue, 30 May 2006 09:38:56 -0800

They also favor "consensual sex between animals and humans". They no doubt are trying to broaden their base so they won't remain a splinter party.

By: jokeefe

jokeefe — Tue, 30 May 2006 09:45:51 -0800

How is it possible to have consensual sex with animals?

By: maryh

maryh — Tue, 30 May 2006 09:46:02 -0800

I'll bet even these guys are creeped out by the Furries.

By: sonofsamiam

sonofsamiam — Tue, 30 May 2006 09:50:31 -0800

NAMBLA: We're not killers!

By: delmoi

delmoi — Tue, 30 May 2006 09:53:48 -0800

Hey, these guys want free train travel for all. I guess so that they get can get to their child lovers more easily? I don't think that sexual contact between children should be banned, but obviously what these guys are mainly after is the ability to exploit them. How is it possible to have consensual sex with animals? That's been debated here before, belive it or not.

By: matteo

matteo — Tue, 30 May 2006 10:11:32 -0800

"the bitch was asking for it"

By: InfidelZombie

InfidelZombie — Tue, 30 May 2006 10:25:58 -0800

Hell, she was howling for it

By: geoff.

geoff. — Tue, 30 May 2006 10:30:59 -0800

What's great about having sex in the shower with a 10 year old? You can slick his hair back and pretend he's 5.

By: symbioid

symbioid — Tue, 30 May 2006 10:56:26 -0800

sonofsamiam, FTW! "We at NAMBLA are productive members of society who, admittedly, like to molest small boys..." God I love Mr. Show. Romania age 10 consent? I can see 16, but 10? Jesus. Doesn't West Virginia have an age 14 age of consent?

By: Drexen

Drexen — Tue, 30 May 2006 11:39:42 -0800

How is it possible to have consensual sex with animals? As someone who has worked with/owned horses and dogs: if they don't like the way you're messing with them, they will surely let you know.

By: Drexen

Drexen — Tue, 30 May 2006 11:42:54 -0800

It can also be very obvious if an animal is in the mood for sex. Never seen a dog humping a couch?

By: jack_mo

jack_mo — Tue, 30 May 2006 11:44:12 -0800

Romania age 10 consent? I think he made that up. It's 15. I don't think that sexual contact between children should be banned, but obviously what these guys are mainly after is the ability to exploit them. Quite. I've always thought 16, the age of consent in the UK, is too high, if only because it technically criminalised me and everyone I had sex with before the age of 16, despite the fact that these were all wholly consensual sexual relationships with other people under the age of 16. I know cases like that are rarely prosecuted, but it seems wrong to send a message to two 13 year olds that their sex life is wrong/illegal... I reckon a law taking into account age difference would make more sense, so that two 12 year olds having sex with each other would be fine, but an 18 year old having sex with a 12 year old would not. (Seems some countries, eg. Slovenia, take age difference/maturity

By: jack_mo

jack_mo — Tue, 30 May 2006 11:45:55 -0800

... into account) Something ate the end of my post there.

By: Zozo

Zozo — Tue, 30 May 2006 11:47:53 -0800

*slowly backs away from Drexen*

By: jack_mo

jack_mo — Tue, 30 May 2006 11:52:14 -0800

Colorado has an age difference law, too.

By: Drexen

Drexen — Tue, 30 May 2006 11:56:04 -0800

Zozo: "*slowly backs away from Drexen*" I thought I had implied enough of a disclaimer, but I don't like or advocate bestiality. I'm just pointing out that some of the common arguments against it don't show much knowledge of animals.

By: jack_mo

jack_mo — Tue, 30 May 2006 12:07:04 -0800

I'm just pointing out that some of the common arguments against it don't show much knowledge of animals. I don't think anyone argues that animals are incapable of demonstrating that they aren't enjoying shagging a human, it's more that animals are too stupid to provide consent in a meaningful sense, so we shouldn't shag them. (If you're looking at it from a strictly consent-based point of view, that is. There are, obviously, several other reasons why shagging animals is not a good thing!)

By: Drexen

Drexen — Tue, 30 May 2006 12:37:15 -0800

it's more that animals are too stupid to provide consent in a meaningful sense See, that's the thing - I don't agree. Firstly, explicit verbal consent clearly isn't a pre-requisite for sex even between humans - things like body language, and not fending off the other party etc, are enough. Secondly, an animal (well, something as intelligent as a dog/horse) is clearly able to 'ask for', say, being fed, going for a walk, fetching a stick, etc. There are, obviously, several other reasons why shagging animals is not a good thing! Since I'm playing devil's advocate anyway, I presume you mean things like disease, physical danger, etc. Well, I imagine there are scenarios where those aren't an issue, at least not enough to require a law. I haven't got the stomach to figure out the details, but presumably it's so. In that case, I don't think we should let disgust get in the way of something that isn't harming anyone/thing, any more than we should for something similarly tricky in terms of consent like BDSM, or something that has been called 'disgusting', like homosexuality. If it hurts/damages/distresses the animal, that's what animal abuse laws are for. Bear in mind that we as a culture are quite happy to kill and/or maim animals when it suits our purposes, and we also subject them to not-explicitly-asked for sexual contact in breeding and in gamete collection. (Well. This was an interesting intellectual excercise. I think I need a cup of tea now. And having said all that, I certainly wouldn't vote for these Proposition 12 people.)

By: Wolfdog

Wolfdog — Tue, 30 May 2006 12:40:06 -0800

Applauds Drexen

By: moira

moira — Tue, 30 May 2006 13:05:38 -0800

"Ten years ago we were 'on speaking terms' with society. But since [Belgian paedophile killer] Marc Dutroux there is no more discussion. All paedophiles are being put in the same box. We are being hushed up," Ad van den Berg, the co-founder of the NVD party, told newspaper 'AD'. Beautiful.

By: goodnewsfortheinsane

goodnewsfortheinsane — Tue, 30 May 2006 15:47:47 -0800

Removal of "Amsterdam" tag seconded. This post has about as much to do with Amsterdam as any post about United States politics has to do with New York. If you insist on naming a city for some reason, go with The Hague - the seat of government. </geo-nitpick>

By: Cranberry

Cranberry — Tue, 30 May 2006 15:48:20 -0800

"The party's program also includes ideas for other areas of public policy including legalizing all soft and hard drugs and free train travel for all." What a trip! A trainful of naked stoners.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Tue, 30 May 2006 16:01:35 -0800

If we're going to lift restrictions on sex, why can't we do the same with violence? As Drexen points out, we are just fine with killing/maiming animals when it suits us - why can we not extend this to people? We tease ourselves with violence (movies, t.v.), but rarely do we get, if you'll pardon the pun, penetration. Violence is not something to be seen, but something to be experienced. We hide the effects of violence, even as we glorify it. Something like this proposition 12, gives me hope for my own Randomly Thrown Grenades party. Our platform is obvious, but we also support free trains - and not only to spread carnage. Now granted, a grenade randomly thrown into a crowd or group of commuters, shoppers, what have you, may not be seen as consensual. However a great deal of personal wealth goes to taxes, in part to make war. We at the RTG propose that people not only get value for their dollar - in the form of a live grenade, but are required to carry and within a proscribed period of time use the grenade. In this way we become a more participatory society, which benefits us all. Obviously certain members of society will be better equipped to handle this environment and while this might be seen as unfair, well, we've got live grenades. /yes, it's an oblique parody to the situation here, not a non-sequitur.

By: stinkycheese

stinkycheese — Tue, 30 May 2006 19:40:23 -0800

RTG for you and me.

By: scrump

scrump — Tue, 30 May 2006 21:06:28 -0800

VOTE SMEDLEY*BLAM*

By: nickyskye

nickyskye — Tue, 30 May 2006 23:46:29 -0800

In case anyone is curious about the Marc Dutroux "child abuse scandal" which The Charity, Freedom and Diversity (NVD) party feel so oppressed by that they have approached the Dutch government for 'help'. Marc Dutroux, a convicted pedophile, murderer and supposed leader of an international child pornography and prostitution ring, terrorized the city with his shocking crimes, between the mid 1980's and late 1990's. Although Dutroux was an unemployed electrician earning welfare from the state, he managed financially by trading stolen cars in Poland and Slovakia, and selling young girls into prostitution throughout Europe. Dutroux owned seven houses in Belgium, most of which stood vacant, except for those houses in which he kept the girls he kidnapped, to be later sold into prostitution or for use in pornography videos. On August 15, 1996 police raided Dutroux's house where they discovered a soundproof concrete dungeon in the basement... Dutroux was not acting on his own, but was part of a network, along with Nihoul, colleague Michel Lelievre and his former wife, Michelle Martin... Dutroux's ex-wife, Michelle Martin, left two girls to starve while Dutroux was in prison... Maybe transportation of child prostitutes is why the NVD want free train travel as part of their "public policy"? Can't believe I Googled the ethics of bestiality but after the subject was brought up here, I was curious if anyone had written anything on the subject. Sure enough.

By: jack_mo

jack_mo — Wed, 31 May 2006 04:36:15 -0800

Bear in mind that we as a culture are quite happy to kill and/or maim animals when it suits our purposes, and we also subject them to not-explicitly-asked for sexual contact in breeding and in gamete collection. I've just realised that my consent-based opposition to bestiality rests on the same, ahem, woolly thinking (preference utilitarianism) that has me believing that medical animal testing and meat eating (even cruel procedures to make yummy foods like foie gras) are not necessarily bad things. Ie, I take the reverse view to someone like Peter Singer, on the basis that the preferences of most (clever, valuable) humans outweigh the preferences of most (stupid, worthless) animals, despite this potentially having rather unfortunate implications when it comes to the im/morality of killing babies and the mentally deficient ;-) Still, as soon as a chicken writes a novel, or similar, I will happily admit that shagging animals is okay and eating them is wrong!

By: FeldBum

FeldBum — Wed, 31 May 2006 06:10:19 -0800

Amsterdam out; Netherlands in

By: kudzu

kudzu — Wed, 31 May 2006 08:30:07 -0800

The NVD Program (link in Dutch, SFW) states at point 18.3: Vlees- en visconsumptie door mensen wordt verboden. Translation: Meat- and fish consumption by humans will be forbidden. *off to cook dinner now, we are having porkchops*