They had all been shot in the head, in the chest.

June 1, 2006 4:32 PM

Another massacre. Is this this just what war does to people?
posted by Flashman (90 comments total)

This one goes to eleven.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 4:37 PM on June 1, 2006

It's a war. (Some) people die all the time.
posted by public at 4:38 PM on June 1, 2006

To make an omelet one must break a few eggs.
Tell it to the vegans.
posted by mischief at 4:42 PM on June 1, 2006

sweet jesus?!
posted by nola at 4:45 PM on June 1, 2006

No big deal.
This is the part of the world that was in on the massacre game early.
posted by 2sheets at 4:45 PM on June 1, 2006

This is why attack dogs don't make good pets
posted by rosswald at 4:48 PM on June 1, 2006 [1 favorite]

Yes this is what war does to people, and always has and always will. I have no doubt there have been numerous other instances of this type of thing happening, and only a small portion gets reported. What happens in situations where there are no survivors, or situations where witnesses do not come forward. Like all crime we only catch a few of the acts.

In general war is glorified and those that make the decisions to go to war rarely experience the realities of those decisions, nor do they seem to have enough empathy to be hesitant to use military force.

Ii have said it before, it is likely Iraq would be better off with that batshitinsane dictator still in power.
posted by edgeways at 4:51 PM on June 1, 2006

According to the BBC article, the military's official story is the victims were crushed by a building. Photos released by insurgents (or at least a Sunni group opposed to the USA) show gunshot wounds on the victims.

Might I ask why we'd put it past these folks to pump bullets in dead bodies to spark an outrage? Seems to me insurgents enjoy killing innocents anyways, so what's a few bullets in some people who are already dead? It would be effective propoganda.
posted by b_thinky at 4:52 PM on June 1, 2006

You're kidding, right public?
Anyway, note that the second link, from a somewhat questionable source, dates from mid-March. Only now have the reliable news sources been more assured that it's true.
I, I just can't get my head around it, that people like us, who laugh at The Simpsons, who decorate Christmas trees, who have Shania Twain on their MP3 players, can just blast a child's head apart.
posted by Flashman at 4:53 PM on June 1, 2006

"Seems to me insurgents enjoy killing innocents anyways"

Yes, I hear they like to drink the blood of christian babies, and are encouraged by the support of Michael Moore.
posted by 2sheets at 4:57 PM on June 1, 2006

I just can't get my head around it, that people like us, who laugh at The Simpsons, who decorate Christmas trees, who have Shania Twain on their MP3 players, can just blast a child's head apart.

Oh, really?
posted by Slothrup at 4:57 PM on June 1, 2006

b_thinky:

The photos are the latest evidence. Not the only evidence.
posted by -harlequin- at 4:58 PM on June 1, 2006

b_thinky: And they shot all the extra women and children the soldier's official report failed to mention?
posted by numlok at 4:58 PM on June 1, 2006

And I have said this before: war is always a Bad Idea. It's not just hard on the guys shooting at each other - if there's a war going on in your country, your life will suck (while it lasts). If your country is engaged in war somewhere else, then your country isn't going to have the money to do all that other stuff you'd like it to do. You know - healthcare, education, disaster relief, that sort of thing. So why do we keep having wars? I think General Smedley Butler had it figured out.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:00 PM on June 1, 2006

Further illustration that the concept of a Just War is arrogant and delusional in the extreme.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:02 PM on June 1, 2006

b_thinky: If you read the second link it says that the bodies were found in a back room, handcuffed and shot. It also speculates that the women and children were killed in front of the man and he was killed.
posted by puke & cry at 5:08 PM on June 1, 2006 [1 favorite]

WAR IS PEACE

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

brought to you from the Ministry of Truth
posted by garficher at 5:12 PM on June 1, 2006

We have always been at war with Eurasia
posted by i_am_a_Jedi at 5:15 PM on June 1, 2006

Marines are trained killers. Anywhere you drop them, they are going to kill relentlessly and with extreme prejudice.

Just make sure you don't drop them in civilian areas.

Oh wait too late. Damn.
posted by Mean Mr. Bucket at 5:18 PM on June 1, 2006

It's okay: our troops in Iraq are going to get ethics training. Hopefully, it'll cover advanced topics like DON'T SHOOT BABIES IN THE HEAD.
posted by EarBucket at 5:21 PM on June 1, 2006

Good the US isn't hindered by some pinko international court bullshit. That would surely impede the swift and just rooting out of these bad apples.
posted by uncle harold at 5:26 PM on June 1, 2006

I highly recommend Winter Soldier.
posted by muckster at 5:27 PM on June 1, 2006

Yes.
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 5:30 PM on June 1, 2006

Mr. Mean Bucket that doesn't make sense. The Marines are indeed trained killers-- and are trained NOT to kill innocent civilians, or to shoot prisoners, or women and children, etc. These Marines are directly defying their training and their mission orders.

Of course, this was a racist war from the start-- these men have been told directly by their leadership that this is retaliation for 9/11. Witness the flag from Ground Zero being placed on the Saddam statue in the early days of the war. Witness the American public not knowing or not caring to make distinctions between Saddam's secular government and Islamic fundamentalists, or between Saudi Arabia and Iraq-- they're all Arab muslims, so they must be guilty of something. I have heard this repeated in various ways in many places in this country.

Having been conditioned by their society and by their leaders that Muslims are dangerous and less-than-human, it's not surprising that the more violent and disturbed among them are able to commit such acts. It's a perfect mirror image of the terrorists who see all infidels as legitimate targets, as their leaders and society teaches them to various degrees.
posted by cell divide at 5:33 PM on June 1, 2006 [1 favorite]

This is what Bush does to people.
posted by fire&wings at 5:34 PM on June 1, 2006

ah, that should be third link, not second.
posted by puke & cry at 5:37 PM on June 1, 2006 [1 favorite]

...who have Shania Twain on their MP3 players, can just blast a child's head apart.

Someone who listens to Shania Twain is capable of anything.
posted by atrazine at 5:46 PM on June 1, 2006

troops in Iraq are going to get ethics training.

When they reported that on Newsnight tonight, I got an uncontrollable case of the giggles.

Is this this just what war does to people?

The war was over yonks ago. This is what peace does to people, apparently.
posted by jack_mo at 5:51 PM on June 1, 2006

1 we do not have a full report as yet.
2. a report may or may not reveal the tgruth--or it might be a coverup
3. war indeed does make people crazed--go back to Iliad for evidence of this--or if you want to stay closer to home, the treatment of Northern POWs captured during Civil War.
4. I have in my own experience seen many reports of atrocities by Americans in a war zone.
5. We can blame Bush; or Iraq, or what we will but the pressures of troops under constant sieges of one or another sort does change them...and that is why we have so many who never revert to the nice folks they were before going to war.
posted by Postroad at 5:52 PM on June 1, 2006

Damn atrazine, that's cold. Tee hee!

e.g

"There Goes The Neighborhood"

The house next door just came up for sale
She's goin' home to mama - she says he can go to hell

and

"I'm Gonna Getcha Good!"

[Chorus:]
(I'm gonna getcha)
I'm gonna getcha while I gotcha in sight
(I'm gonna getcha)
I'm gonna getcha if it takes all night
(Yeah, you can betcha)
You can betcha by the time I say "go," you'll never say "no"
(I'm gonna getcha)
I'm gonna getcha, it's a matter of fact
(I'm gonna getcha)
I'm gonna getcha, don'tcha worry 'bout that
(Yeah, you can betcha)
You can bet your bottom dollar, in time you're gonna be mine
Just like I should - I'll getcha good



Before you ask, yes, I found these on a lyrics website.
posted by lalochezia at 5:52 PM on June 1, 2006

7 Marines, Sailor Face Murder Charges -- "8 to be charged in death of Iraqi civilian in April, defense lawyer says."
posted by ericb at 6:22 PM on June 1, 2006

Getting Out: A Guide to Military Discharges

800 394-9544 (if you are outside the US call 215 563-4620)

Central Committee for Conscientious Objectors: [phone] or [e-mail].
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 6:36 PM on June 1, 2006

these men have been told directly by their leadership that this is retaliation for 9/11

posted by kirkaracha at 6:37 PM on June 1, 2006

Now we can start calling them babykillers, right?
posted by Optamystic at 6:37 PM on June 1, 2006

Ok, I'll start. Fucking babykillers.
posted by Optamystic at 6:40 PM on June 1, 2006

Only so many ways to be crazy
posted by amberglow at 6:44 PM on June 1, 2006

Don't worry, there's a chance for justice. All we have to do is hope that the perpetrators took lots of photographs of themselves doing it and shared them with their friends, and there'll be a trial before you know it. Who knows, they might even indict someone important as a Sergeant.
posted by George_Spiggott at 6:44 PM on June 1, 2006

God Bless America.
And boy do they need it cause on their actions alone Hell is a sure thing.
posted by nightchrome at 6:45 PM on June 1, 2006

It's intresting, it's bad because they ran in, shot everyone and then bombed the building. But, if they had simply bombed the building itself, the grandmothers and babies would only be "colateral damage". But dead is dead.

Of course, they could have spesifically avoided killing those old ladies and children in this instance but didn't.
posted by delmoi at 6:49 PM on June 1, 2006

I think the difference is that instead of bombing a building they didn't know contained civilians, these American soldiers apparently handcuffed five little children, lined them up against the wall, and shot them in the forehead. Dead is dead, sure, but that's a whole 'nother level of cold-blooded evil right there.
posted by EarBucket at 6:52 PM on June 1, 2006

Might I ask why we'd put it past these folks to pump bullets in dead bodies to spark an outrage? Seems to me insurgents enjoy killing innocents anyways, so what's a few bullets in some people who are already dead? It would be effective propoganda.

And then they rebuild the entire building so that it would look like it had only partially collapsed.
posted by delmoi at 6:54 PM on June 1, 2006

If Bush really means what he says about making Iraq into a fully functioning democracy, all of the troops and in particular their officers involved in any massacres of Iraqi civilians should be turned over to local Iraqi courts for justice. The resulting public mutilations and executions should be video-taped and broadcast frequently as a warning to any person, military or civilian, who would trample the inherent rights as persons the Iraqis have after three national elections.

/semi-facetious filter
posted by bardic at 6:59 PM on June 1, 2006

What war?
posted by jaronson at 7:06 PM on June 1, 2006

War is a last resort. It should be fought to fend off an invasion/attack, or to assist a country that is being invaded/attacked. The idea of preemptive war is wrong for many reasons. Among these reasons is what happened in Iraq: the belief that led to the preemptive strike was false. Another reason is that -- without exception -- horrific things happen in war. If you are going to war, you have to accept that your side will torture and kill innocent people. It happens in every war. So you better have a damn good reason for going to war, because you are accepting the torture and killing of innocent people by going to war in the first place.
posted by flarbuse at 7:16 PM on June 1, 2006

What war?

Exactly.
posted by ericb at 7:32 PM on June 1, 2006

"these men have been told directly by their leadership that this is retaliation for 9/11"

Reminds me of this:

The men of Reserve Police Battalion 101 climbed down from their trucks and assembled in a half-circle around their commander, Major Wilhelm Trapp, a 53 year old career policeman affectionately known to his men as 'Papa Trapp.' The time had come for Trapp to address the men and inform them of the assignment the battalion had received.

Pale and nervous, with choking voice and tears in his eyes, Trapp visibly fought to control himself as he spoke. The battalion, he said plaintively, had to perform a frightfully unpleasant task. The assignment was not to his liking, indeed it was highly regrettable, but the orders came from the highest authorities. If it would make their task any easier, the men should remember that in Germany the bombs were falling on women and children.

He then turned to the matter at hand. the Jews had instigated the American boycott that had damaged Germany, one policeman remembered Trapp saying. There were Jews in the village of Jozefow who were involved with the partisans, he explained according to two others. The battalion had now been ordered to round up these Jews. The male Jews of working age were to be separated and taken to a work camp. The remaining Jews - the women, children, the elderly - were to be shot on the spot by the battalion. Having explained what awaited his men, Trapp then made an extraordinary offer: if any of the older men among them did not feel up to the task that lay before him, her could step out.

Ordinary Men, Christopher R. Browning

Compare and contrast.
posted by Meatbomb at 7:33 PM on June 1, 2006

Lest we forget that yesterday marks the one year anniversary of the "last throes" of the insurgency in Iraq.

Heckuva a job Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld!
posted by ericb at 7:35 PM on June 1, 2006

Might I ask why we'd put it past these folks to pump bullets in dead bodies to spark an outrage?

Well, might I ask why "crushed bodies" appear intact... and the buildings that supposedly crushed them seem to be still standing in the bbc video?
posted by Manhasset at 7:38 PM on June 1, 2006

yesterday marks

Actually, two days ago --

'I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency."

[Vice President Dick Cheney | 'Larry King Live" | May 30, 2005]
posted by ericb at 7:41 PM on June 1, 2006

More photos here.
posted by EarBucket at 7:44 PM on June 1, 2006

If that's all that's on the video than that doesn't really show SHIT.

But enjoy your circle jerk.
posted by HTuttle at 8:10 PM on June 1, 2006

I blame Bush.
posted by Balisong at 8:11 PM on June 1, 2006

Can we call it a quagmire yet? How about "Yet Another Vietnam"? Can we call it Vietnam yet?

Fuck, man. Mission fucking accomplished, you heartless, greedy, chickenhawk motherfuckers on a stick of pure, unadultrated stupid.

I'm fucking talking to you, Middle America, listen up. I'm talking to you, you supposedly religious and godly fundamentalists. I'm talking to you, you stupid, stupid voters that were swayed by Bush's totally ingenuine religiousness and his anti-homosexual rhetoric.

I'm talking to you, you shivering, bleating, mewling, motherfucking fear eaten sheep, stampeding off to your own fucking doom and the wholesale slaughter of innocents.

I'm talking to you, you short-sighted, non-thinking mostly inanimate bundles of nerves and fears and insecurities.

You, you who have everything handed to them on a plate. You, who consume the majority of the world's resources with a fraction of a fraction of the population. You, with the world's most technologically advanced military protecting them.

And yet you still tremble and cower in fear and react like a spoilt child when confronted by anything even marginally different then your own mealy, pasty hallucination of normality. You're not normal, Middle America, you're sick with delusions of grandeur and self-importance, joyously and ignorantly wallowing in your own mental excrement.

Collateral damage, my fat fucking white ass. I wonder if you'd still so willingly and unquestioningly accept the doctrine of collateral fucking damage if it was your own goddamn neighborhoods being blown to shit, if it was your own house that was mistargeted for a precision munition, your own homes torn to shreds by nearby explosions, if it was your own neighborhoods being shattered, if it was your own children who died, if it was your own parents, or god forbid - your own life.

Fuck you, Middle America. Fuck you very much. Thanks a fucking ton. I'm sure that the Iraqi people would love to thank you personally for your magnificence, for your honesty and candor. For your deeply introspective ways and your willingness to lend a hand.


On the upside, as history repeats itself the mainstream media and even the general feel of the general public - along with Bush's incredibly low approval ratings - is kind of starting to look and feel a lot like (what I've read about) the Nixon years just before Watergate and the ensuing impeachment.

Paranoia setting in, Shrub? Walls closing in, maybe? Feeling a little harried and hassled and underappreciated?

Good. You deserve it. I hope you get everything that's coming to you. 'Cause you are a crook and a thief - and worse, a murderer. A murderer of your own people, your own child-soldiers, and a murderer of Soveriegn innocents of foreign countries.
posted by loquacious at 8:17 PM on June 1, 2006 [25 favorites]

along with Bush's incredibly low approval ratings

Poll: Bush Worst President Since 1945.

Heckuva a job, Georgie.
posted by ericb at 8:39 PM on June 1, 2006

don't forget this rare and actually factual statement by Bush (unless he's impeached and removed quick, which won't happen): President Bush said Tuesday the decision about when to withdraw all U.S. troops from Iraq will fall to future presidents and Iraqi leaders, suggesting that U.S. involvement will continue at least through 2008.

So we have years more of our troops there, and permanent bases as well.
posted by amberglow at 8:52 PM on June 1, 2006

And HTuttle is convinced that the problem is people on Metafilter.

Here we go again...
posted by dglynn at 9:02 PM on June 1, 2006

How long would vietnam have lasted if the VC had digital cameras and camcorders?

It seems like the only times people get caught doing these things is when there is actual video evidence.
posted by delmoi at 9:05 PM on June 1, 2006

Comment flagged as a favourite, loquacious.
posted by jokeefe at 9:06 PM on June 1, 2006

You, who consume the majority of the world's resources with a fraction of a fraction of the population.

Why is having a portion of the worlds population that's not the reciprocal of a prime number a bad thing? And since when is 25% a 'majority'?
posted by delmoi at 9:08 PM on June 1, 2006

delmoi: ok, a plurality if not an actual majority. way to totally miss the point.

is there a name for it when people seize on some tiny marginally-important aspect of what someone says, as though by pointing out its wrongness they have somehow invalidated the whole statement?

also, reciprocal of a prime number? wha?
posted by sergeant sandwich at 9:25 PM on June 1, 2006

... for years, the School of the Americas, at Fort Benning, GA, trained central American death squads in the art and science of terror. Those death squads eviscerated my wife's 22 year old Colombian photo-journalist niece, and threw her in the ocean, just like they were trained to do... And that was YEARS AGO.
posted by sporb at 9:29 PM on June 1, 2006

We can blame Bush; or Iraq, or what we will but the pressures of troops under constant sieges of one or another sort does change them...and that is why we have so many who never revert to the nice folks they were before going to war.
posted by Postroad

For a parent, this is the most realistic worry...not that it's more pressing than death or maiming.

No matter what happens now, our military is totally vulnerable to any charge against them.

Much of what loquacious wrote...

.
posted by taosbat at 9:50 PM on June 1, 2006

Surely its just some bad apples.
(I can't believe no one brought it up yet)

you shivering, bleating, mewling, motherfucking fear eaten sheep
Dude, I couldn't have said it better.
posted by c13 at 10:01 PM on June 1, 2006

What we need to remember, as loquacious said, is that the people in charge of this are fundamentally cowards. Their rationale is that simple survival is worth any cost, including our own freedoms and the lives of others. This is cowardice, pure and unadulterated. I'm with Patrick Henry - I would rather see us disappear than preserve our skins at the cost of what makes us worth preserving.
posted by 1adam12 at 10:34 PM on June 1, 2006

The US is going to be paying reparations for decades, if we ever want international credibility again. I say we plan to nationalilze the rich family trust funds to help pay. At least those belonging to the families involved directly (Bush, Cheny, et al) and their supporters.
posted by Goofyy at 11:10 PM on June 1, 2006

You traitors better stop complaining... or else!
posted by homunculus at 11:13 PM on June 1, 2006

Zogby, February 28, 2006 Poll of Troops in Iraq

The wide-ranging poll also shows that 58% of those serving in country say the U.S. mission in Iraq is clear in their minds, while 42% said it is either somewhat or very unclear to them, that they have no understanding of it at all, or are unsure. While 85% said the U.S. mission is mainly “to retaliate for Saddam’s role in the 9-11 attacks,” 77% said they also believe the main or a major reason for the war was “to stop Saddam from protecting al Qaeda in Iraq.”
...
More than 80% said they did not hold a negative view of Iraqis
...
The survey shows that most U.S. military personnel in-country have a clear sense of right and wrong when it comes to using banned weapons against the enemy, and in interrogation of prisoners. Four in five said they oppose the use of such internationally banned weapons as napalm and white phosphorous. And, even as more photos of prisoner abuse in Iraq surface around the world, 55% said it is not appropriate or standard military conduct to use harsh and threatening methods against insurgent prisoners in order to gain information of military value.

So in summary, 85% have been taught a false reason for being in Iraq. 1 in 5 hates all Iraqis and would like to use Nalpalm. 45% favor torture.

It only takes a few bad apples to spoil a barell, but 1 in 5 is rather excessive.

I don't blame the soldier for their opinions - they are based on information they receive that is highly filtered and shaped.
posted by MonkeySaltedNuts at 11:33 PM on June 1, 2006

Marines are trained killers. Anywhere you drop them, they are going to kill relentlessly and with extreme prejudice.

I heard a retired Marine commander on the radio this week, reacting to the massacre news, and he just cracked me up (in a bad way). He was audibly upset, really flabbergasted and upset, and he just kept saying:

"The American people need to know that this... this just isn't the Marine Corps. I just don't want people to think... The Marine Corps isn't... This, what this is, it... it isn't the Marine Corps..."

I wanted to shake and slap him, because it evidently is. The Corps has had better moments, to be sure, but all this scramble to trot out their distinguished history and high sense of honor and commitment to truth... how inappropriate to the occasion.

They need to hang the fucks who did it, apologize, and pull the fuck out of Iraq. Seriously... will they try and execute anyone for this? Not in a million years.
posted by scarabic at 12:24 AM on June 2, 2006

They need to hang the fucks who did it, apologize, and pull the fuck out of Iraq.

Oh, and never again presume to honor. That's done with.
posted by scarabic at 12:25 AM on June 2, 2006

So Saddam gets his thugs to kill people and he's probably gonna hang for it. When do we get to hang George and Tony?

And I didn't know they used the flag from Ground Zero in Iraq..... That's a disgrace and I'm surprised none of the press (US or international) latched onto the story. President uses national tragedy to further his own personal vendetta (which we all knew anyway but flying THAT flag...). Lovely fella.
posted by twistedonion at 1:42 AM on June 2, 2006

I'm wondering how many other times there wasn't a video camera present to record the event. I was going to vent, but loquacious did it for me - thanks.
posted by silence at 4:38 AM on June 2, 2006

The US military has announced that coalition troops in Iraq are to have ethical training following the furore surrounding the alleged killings. For the next 30 days, they would receive lessons in "core warrior values", a military statement said.

Ahahahahaha oh noes ! Apparently our warriors didn't receive a lesson in warrior ethics ! The lesson will include

1) marching with parade sword
2) waltz dancing at the annual dance of hot prurient babes
3) proper way to elitic warrior moral values with ejaculations unlike "kill that goddamn fucking gook ! " but like the more proper " Sir, disposses yourself of your valuables else violence will ensue upon your arse, eww ! "

This is surreal and so dissonant..we have to train killers to become gentleman warrior. Bullshit. And now for something completely different

TOP EXCUSES for any military misconduct (found so far in this thread)

a) It's a war. (Some) people die all the time. It's the catchall phrase, lads and gents ! War justifies anything !

b) Seems to me insurgents enjoy killing innocents anyways It's the glorious "they all are subhumans" so effective at making "others" look not worthy of being understood, they can't be humans can they ?

c)Good the US isn't hindered by some pinko international court bullshit. It's the "law is good only when I like it" that so much make people dance thes days !

d) This is what Bush does to people. Blaming one man , conveniently forgetting his larger entourage.

But hey there is some tought in the thread

b_t Might I ask why we'd put it past these folks to pump bullets in dead bodies to spark an outrage?

Good question ! I don't know the details but my mad CSI skills tell me there is a difference when one is shot before and after death, so I guess it can be determined +- accurately. After all they could have learned psyop tactics even if I wonder who did they imitate.

Well, might I ask why "crushed bodies" appear intact... and the buildings that supposedly crushed them seem to be still standing in the bbc video?

Can't tell much from the video. Can't see exit/enter wounds, can't see how much the buildings were damaged and which ones are damanged.
posted by elpapacito at 4:41 AM on June 2, 2006

c)Good the US isn't hindered by some pinko international court bullshit. It's the "law is good only when I like it" that so much make people dance thes days !

That was my comment and in fact was meant as a bitter, somewhat cynical comment in the exact opposite direction. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
posted by uncle harold at 5:08 AM on June 2, 2006

At last, I think I get it!

'Hearts and Minds' are the targets the Marines are to aim for, right?
posted by Shave at 6:04 AM on June 2, 2006

Amazing what our tax money can do...
posted by NewBornHippy at 6:51 AM on June 2, 2006

Horray for the troops! Yellow ribbons for everyone!
posted by squirrel at 6:59 AM on June 2, 2006

I just can't get my head around it, that people like us, who laugh at The Simpsons, who decorate Christmas trees, who have Shania Twain on their MP3 players, can just blast a child's head apart.

I can't get my head around the fact that you don't see a direct connection between our entertainment-distracted, violently religeous, energy guzzling American way of life and the toll it takes on the rest of the world.
posted by squirrel at 7:03 AM on June 2, 2006

From the link posted by homunculus :
"and remember one side is armed and one is not"

This is a common misperception among the poor deluded conservotards. This liberal shoots back, and quite frankly I have an itchy trigger finger these days when it comes to christofascists and loudmouthed rednecks.
Best you stay in your armchair watching Fox News and stuffing your face with junk food, pigs.
posted by 2sheets at 10:44 AM on June 2, 2006

Didn't they lower the standards for entry into the armed services last year because of their recruitment difficulties? I wonder ...
posted by moonbiter at 1:06 PM on June 2, 2006

Because clearly these Marines would have hopped on a plane and killed some people anyway.

“This is surreal and so dissonant..we have to train killers to become gentleman warrior. Bullshit.”

It’s what folks want at home. No one wants to know about the filthy end of the war business. No one really wants “warriors” we want nice clean “heroes” who are good to their mothers, like apple pie, and have no adrenal glands and don’t lose control like other humans do - even though we train them, give them weapons and heap ammunition on them.
Oh your buddy who was closer than a brother to you just died and IEDs are going off every day and it’s constant stress? Tough shit buddy. You’re not human like anyone else. “Displaced aggression?” is that one of those pansy headshrink terms like post-traumatic stress? There’s no such thing as “madness” in war.
You just committed an atrocity you bastard!
*pumps car full of cheap gas, goes home, fucks wife, eats nice dinner, no explosives go off within 1000 miles*

“I can't get my head around the fact that you don't see a direct connection between our entertainment-distracted, violently religeous, energy guzzling American way of life and the toll it takes on the rest of the world.” -posted by squirrel

Thanks, squirrel.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:31 PM on June 2, 2006

/+ thanks loquacious

//and no, no excuses for this. Spare me the facile retorts. I merely refuse to throw up my hands and lay it on Bushco or the Marines, etc. - the reason this is a problem is because Bushco doesn’t want to lose the political end of this thing and this is bad PR. Meanwhile - why they did it goes unresolved. ‘Oh, they’re Marines’ doesn’t cut it. Some people go crazy in civilian life. Some people get yelled at by their boss and beat their kids. I don’t condone that either. But there is a ‘why’ to it.


Optamystic here’s a good contact for you - a former Marine, he even won some combat medals so he was good at it. He contributes to truthdig.com.

Call him a babykiller to his face, I think he’s still out in Redondo Beach, hell, I’ll accept even a phone call.
Otherwise, shut the fuck up.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:51 PM on June 2, 2006

Early this year, a senior British officer publicly criticised the US army for its conduct in Iraq, accusing it of institutional racism, moral righteousness, misplaced optimism and of being ill suited to engage in counter- insurgency operations. The criticism came from Brigadier Nigel Aylwin-Foster, who was the second most senior officer responsible for training Iraqi forces.

US soldiers, the brigadier said, were "almost unfailingly courteous and considerate". But "at times their cultural insensitivity, almost certainly inadvertent, arguably amounted to institutional racism". (source)
posted by cell divide at 3:13 PM on June 2, 2006

I just can't get my head around it, that people like us, who laugh at The Simpsons, who decorate Christmas trees, who have Shania Twain on their MP3 players, can just blast a child's head apart.[- me, yesterday]

I can't get my head around the fact that you don't see a direct connection between our entertainment-distracted, violently religeous, energy guzzling American way of life and the toll it takes on the rest of the world.[- squirrel]

Well, I guess I never should've dragged Shania into this - I was just thinking of the things I/we would have in common with the guys who are doing this stuff, the love we might share for the things that are nice and beautiful, and (perhaps because I'd just been listening to Doug Coupland being interviewed on BBC Radio 4) I used these pop-culture things as a shorthand for this. I just as well might have said, oh, drinking cold mountain water or watching the sun set or stroking the velvety hair of a horse's nose.
As far as a "toll' goes, your comment is a bit of a non sequitur when it comes to understanding how a group of young men came to commit these barbarities, considering that what I wrote, Christmas aside perhaps, could apply to all of us the world over (eg I personally am not American, but I might as well be). That toll is inflicted by all of us in some way, but I don't see it as being germane to this situation - I'd be interested to hear otherwise though.
And, I guess I was a bit disingenuous about 'not getting my head around it'. I can put myself in that situation, perhaps even imagine feeling their fury as they pulled the trigger. It's not even surprising, really. Now they've done something about as horrible as can be done, in 'our' name, and that they'll have to live with for as long as they live, along with whatever else befalls them as a result. Fuck, I don't know, it's just really really sad.

Or, as someone quite succintly put it in response to the original question: yes.
posted by Flashman at 4:08 PM on June 2, 2006

“Fuck, I don't know, it's just really really sad.”

Ever wonder why most everyone who’d been in combat in the government was opposed or is now opposed to the war? Why generals coming out of the service are bitching. Only a bunch of reprobates would go to war when it wasn’t absolutely necessary. I don’t know what kind of person would seek to profit from it, much less convince others that it was absolutely necessary when it wasn’t, much less keep it going.
If I didn’t think Hussein might have had the bomb (contrary to my horse sense) I’d have never supported going to war in the first place. Now I feel bad for the Iraqis, our troops, folks who have kids over there, the guys I know who are still in, it is sad. I’ve been on the horn to everyone I know or heard of in government, I wish I knew better what to do about it. People are working to stop it, but that doesn’t help these people now.
posted by Smedleyman at 4:44 PM on June 2, 2006

...We have told our kids over and over again that are no rules in this war. That we're allowed to torture who we want, spy on who we want, kill who we want -- even the innocent -- and weasel out of it with a bizzard of signing statments, refusals to investigate any Republican treachery no matter how blatant, and "Mission Accomplished" banners.
So when anyone in your gunsights at any given moment MIGHT be a “terrorist” by the absurdly slack, one-size-fits-all-Ay-rabs definition of that word as used by the President of the United States, in a moment of fury, why not?
And the fault for setting the table for these crimes against humanity – which are simultaneously handing one overwhelming propaganda victory after another to our real enemies – lies stinking and maggot-riddled squarely on the desk of the Dear Leader and his wormy minions like Warner.
In the Dubya Universe, where “crime” is whatever the Dear Leader says it is today. Where any residual criminality and incompetence, when found above a certain pay-grade, is brushed off with Medal’s of Freedom and “Heckofajobs”.
“Punishment”, in Bushland, is only meted out CEO-style: to peons below a certain pay-grade for those stupid enough to get caught. ...
posted by amberglow at 6:38 PM on June 2, 2006

Andrew Greeley: New motto for Bush: Semper fiasco
posted by amberglow at 9:15 PM on June 2, 2006

Out of Control --
How the Haditha killings could haunt the GOP in the midterm elections.
posted by ericb at 9:44 PM on June 2, 2006

I'm at a loss for words. So, what Loquacious said.
posted by dejah420 at 12:05 PM on June 3, 2006

Posted 6/3/2006 11:52 AM ET
BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) — An Iraqi whose brother was killed by American troops during a raid north of Baghdad condemned on Saturday a U.S. military investigation that cleared forces of wrongdoing, as new footage showed that at least four children were among the victims.

The U.S. military said Saturday it found no wrongdoing by American troops accused of intentionally killing civilians during a March 15 raid in Ishaqi, about 50 miles north of Baghdad. As many as 13 Iraqis were killed.

The investigation concluded that U.S. troops followed normal procedures in raising the level of force after coming under fire while approaching a building where they believed an al-Qaeda terrorist was hiding, said Maj. Gen. William Caldwell, a U.S military spokesman.

Caldwell also acknowledged there were "possibly up to nine collateral deaths" in addition to the four Iraqi deaths that the military announced at the time.

He said Saturday there had been a great deal of attention concerning "coalition forces killing innocent Iraqi civilians. However, each case needs to be examined individually."

Issa Hrat Khalaf, whose brother was killed in the ensuing airstrike, demanded an independent investigation and said the U.S. forces responsible for the killings should be executed.

"Where are the terrorists? Are they the old lady or the kids?" he said in a telephone interview, referring to the fact that women and children were among the victims. "It looks like the lives of the Iraqis are worthless."
posted by taosbat at 12:34 PM on June 3, 2006

Maybe this link won't rot so quickly.
posted by taosbat at 9:01 PM on June 3, 2006