Comments on: "Doping Scandal Rocks Tour"

"Doping Scandal Rocks Tour"

dizzycow — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 06:48:27 -0800

Big news in the cycling world. Favorites Basso, Ullrich out of the Tour de France. Should make for an interesting July.

By: ChasFile

ChasFile — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 06:52:45 -0800

Looks like Lance got out just in time.

By: Wolfdog

Wolfdog — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 06:55:29 -0800

Golly. Wow. Cyclingnews. Velonews. I wonder if Basso's in danger of losing his Giro win, now.

By: mr_crash_davis

mr_crash_davis — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:05:15 -0800

I'm sure Barry Bonds is involved somehow.

By: Wolfdog

Wolfdog — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:07:38 -0800

I look forward to this event all year and now it's just been shat all over. Man.

By: norm

norm — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:10:10 -0800

For some reason I have this unshakeable image in my head of Phil Hartman with no arms.

By: beerbajay

beerbajay — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:11:56 -0800

Wikipedia article on blood doping

By: Wolfdog

Wolfdog — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:24:28 -0800

Looks like Lance got out just in time. Nobody from Discovery is implicated, though, are they? Near as I can tell this is all centered around one doctor, who, as far as I know, didn't have any relation with Lance or any of the other disco guys.

By: monju_bosatsu

monju_bosatsu — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:26:11 -0800

Lance isn't implicated in this particular set of allegations, but he continues to have his own problems.

By: Flashman

Flashman — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:29:19 -0800

So it has nothing to do with Lance Armstrong threatening to kill Greg LeMond? Curiouser and curiouser

By: jaimev

jaimev — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:34:46 -0800

Lance "I never took performance enhancing drugs"" Armstrong? Christ he has the American media so enamored over his 7-in-a-row TDF wins, and cancer survivor story, that no interviewer during his media tour this week pressed him on his own past use of growth hormone, cortisone, EPO, steroids and testosterone.

By: Flashman

Flashman — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:36:49 -0800

zut alors - touche, m_b

By: OmieWise

OmieWise — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:40:36 -0800

Wolfdog, I don't think there's reason to despair, this simply opens things up a little bit more. I would have liked to see those guys race, but I'll be happy watching those who do start.

By: sergeant sandwich

sergeant sandwich — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:43:20 -0800

man, poor jan ullrich. for the last 7 years the guy's been hands down better in the tour than everyone else in cycling except for one dude. the mind reels to think how many tours he might have pulled down if not for armstrong. if i were him i'd be pretty pissed off at life right now.

By: plemeljr

plemeljr — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:48:25 -0800

I'm glad all of these accusations are freshly timed perfectly for the start of le Tour. Nice timing, eh? As for Operación Puerto, this is a sad day, which blows the 1998 Tour start (where a team car was found with illegal and controlled substances) right away. Look at the new odds composite: Alejandro Valverde (ILL) 6.4/1; but don't count out the Americans: Floyd Landis (Pho), George Hincapie (Dis), and David Zabriskie (CSC).

By: plemeljr

plemeljr — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:49:38 -0800

Doh! Double post! Oh well - a good place to check out additional news about the Tour is the TdF Blog.

By: brighton

brighton — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:50:35 -0800

With this rate of attrition, I might have to get my old Chopper out to make up the numbers.

By: Wolfdog

Wolfdog — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:52:45 -0800

I'd say Leipheimer'd be favored ahead of Hincapie and Zabriskie as far as GC. Savoldelli and Popovych are the most likely leaders for Discovery - I expect they'll sort that out as they go - and I don't think anyone really has any idea how they're going to handle themselves in a tour where they can't use their patented all-for-one approach.

By: matteo

matteo — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:54:39 -0800

at this point, cycling has become a bit of a joke, really. the IOC might as well use the sport as giant experiment -- erase all kind of anti-doping laws, only for cycling, sit back for three (or better yet, five) years and see what happens. at this point, it's not about being clean or not, it's about being one step ahead of the laws. these guys want to kill themselves, OK. at least they'll enjoy their wins and medals quietly, and we'll enjoy some superhuman performances (I still remember Moser's Giro in 1984, when on the last leg in Verona he was about to destroy the hour record su strada)

By: NationalKato

NationalKato — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:58:31 -0800

Do these guys have collectible bracelets? 'Cause if not, fuck 'em.

By: dseaton

dseaton — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:58:53 -0800

By: dseaton

dseaton — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:03:33 -0800

ps. plemeljr: Look at the new odds composite: Alejandro Valverde (ILL) 6.4/1; but don't count out the Americans: Floyd Landis (Pho), George Hincapie (Dis), and David Zabriskie (CSC). You don't mention Vinokourov, and he doesn't get quite the odds that Valverde does, but I think you gotta figure he's way up in the mix. I mean, especially given the situation with Astana-Würth, he's going to be seriously chasing a win.

By: sergeant sandwich

sergeant sandwich — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:05:25 -0800

if i were a betting man i'd put my money on vinokourov, but the velonews article makes it sound like he might get booted too. also, is that betting site giving top odds to floyd landis? FLOYD LANDIS? what the hell? i've got 10:1 on bob roll!

By: monju_bosatsu

monju_bosatsu — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:07:26 -0800

Cycling, of course, has always had a long history of doping. In this case, the riders were ejected for being associated with Dr. Eufemiano Fuentes, who apparently kept coded notebooks detailing the doping regime provided for the riders named. It wasn't long ago that in addition to EPO, steroids and steroid-masking agents, testosterone, and human growth hormone, riders routinely received doses of "pot belge," a ballistic compound of cocaine, caffeine, heroin, and cortisone. That'll get you going in the morning.

By: monju_bosatsu

monju_bosatsu — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:11:47 -0800

... has always had a long history ... That's some inartful prose, ain't it?

By: Slothrup

Slothrup — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:17:30 -0800

I'd say Leipheimer'd be favored ahead of Hincapie and Zabriskie as far as GC. I'm not sure why, but Leipheimer seems to be largely ignored by the mainstream American press.

By: Wolfdog

Wolfdog — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:18:52 -0800

Because he's spent most of his years riding for Euro teams.

By: mathowie

mathowie — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:48:11 -0800

I thought it was going to be a Basso win for sure. I guess Landis is going to be king this year.

By: WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot

WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:55:00 -0800

Director of UCI, Pat McQuaid, says other sports involved. "You must bear in mind also that this isn't just a problem of cycling. We have got this list from the authorities in Spain because we forced the issues; pressure came from the UCI and the French Ministry as well that we wanted this list before the Tour de France. There are other sports people from other sports involved this affair as well, and in time their names will also come out... I have been told that athletics, basketball, tennis and football are involved in this. Those details will all emerge over time."

By: dw

dw — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 08:59:40 -0800

Maybe I'm alone in saying this, but it bugs me that these guys have been tossed basically because -- as far as I can tell -- their names show up on some list somewhere. They didn't fail a blood test, didn't get the usual due process, did they? (But by all means, someone correct me if I'm wrong.) At this point, with EPO and HGH testing as primitive as it is, a list is probably better proof than a vial of blood. Remember those two Greek runners who were kicked out of the Olympics for not contributing a drug test (they said they were in an "accident?") Some have thought it was just a convenient excuse for the IOC and WADA to drop them, because they were connected to Victor Conte and BALCO. What happens if it comes out in a month that these were false accusations? Well, they're screwed. But the Tour is within its right to toss people who have the even the slightest whiff of doping. Baseball was this way for years with gambling, suspending a manager for just talking to a known bookie, putting Mickey Mantle and Willie Mays for working as celebrity greeters at a casino (they never set foot on the gaming floor). Why didn't they do this to Lance Armstrong? My guess is money.

By: plemeljr

plemeljr — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:04:15 -0800

Well, Vino's chances look even more grim now, his Astaná squad looks to be down to only 4 members, when UCI requires 6 for a grand tour - Vino might be gone also due to no teammates. I wouldn't rule out Popovych (Dis) either, but I agree that Disco's "cover all the bases" strategy weakens their overall strength; Johan Bruyneel better have kickin' plan for which rider to support when.

By: WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot

WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:05:43 -0800

It should be noted that it isn't the Tour that booted these riders - it was the team directors. Discovery's Johan Bruyneel: "We had all the directors get together in a room prior to the official Tour de France directors meeting at 1030. We all had the official documents in our possession. We talked a little bit about it, and actually we actually just agreed on what we had been discussing yesterday. #1 it's a very serious case which is damaging to the sport and even to the teams who are not involved in this. And we agreed that we had to make a decision as a group of teams and not have to wait for a decision from the UCI, or the ASO... it was better that we ourselves stood up and take responsibility." Nobody from Team Discovery is implicated.

By: beerbajay

beerbajay — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:20:11 -0800

Nicely done.

By: Nelson

Nelson — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:28:56 -0800

These guys should take up baseball.

By: rotifer

rotifer — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 10:42:08 -0800

Actually, the UCI told the riders on the list they must sign a form declaring they were not involved in doping and, should the UCI find further evidence to implicate them, they would be pulled during the Tour. The teams are protecting their chances by withdrawing the riders beforehand. By the way, there were vials - bags even - of blood found with rider's names on them - a few in code. This is a shock and the timing sucks.

By: Atreides

Atreides — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 11:08:08 -0800

Yeesh. Its like the week or so before Masters golf tournament and hearing that Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson were booted.

By: bardic

bardic — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 11:20:32 -0800

I can assure you that Phil Mickelson isn't taking any drugs to increase his physical fitness. And I guess Lance is now the Bill Clinton of cycling--blame him for everything that's wrong with the sport now that he's gone. I dunno. Maybe he was doping. But he didn't get caught. If he was, he's a dickweed who surrounded himself with the right people. That's better than just being a dickweed I guess. And he tapped Sheryl Crow. Surely that means something?

By: uni verse

uni verse — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 11:30:10 -0800

Mefi dope allegers: it's irresponsible of yourself and to metafilter to make claims however subtle against people who have not admitted anything, and are for now, innocent, is it not?

By: drezdn

drezdn — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:02:12 -0800

By: peptide

peptide — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:13:49 -0800

One would think that, if doping and drug use were confined to just a few riders, the clean riders would be very quick to speak out against them. But the fact that Lance, for example, hasn't said anything about the fact that both the second and third place riders in last year's tour were (allegedly) doping, or that Simoni's tantrum during the Giro didn't include doping as one of his crazy accusations against Basso, speaks volumes. Honestly, the silence of Lance and other supposedly "clean" cyclists in the face of constant positive drug tests, police raids, and even admissions of guilt by their fellow competitors is the most damning evidence that the use of doping and performance-enhancing drugs is widely accepted, if not universal, within the professional peloton.

By: peptide

peptide — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:20:54 -0800

Oh and so much for Vino.

By: the painkiller

the painkiller — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 12:44:10 -0800

what a stunner. looks like the worlds fastest mennonite is going to have a clear shot at the podium. i wouldn't be surprised at all if leipheimer and even danielson join him in the top ten, despite azevedo being given the #1 for the disco boys.

By: Chuckles

Chuckles — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 13:53:35 -0800

Cross referencing the velonews list of implicated riders with wikipedia's lists of standings for the last seven Tours:

Year              place
        1     2     3     4     5
2005   LA     X     X     X     X
2004   LA    AK     X     X    JA
2003   LA     X     X     X    HZ
2002   LA     X    RR    SB     X
2001   LA     X     X    AK     X
2000   LA     X     X    CM     X
1999   LA    AZ    FE    LD     X

Where X's represent implicated riders, and the two instances of AK refer to different riders (Kloden in 2004 and Kivilev in 2001).

By: dseaton

dseaton — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:39:52 -0800

Peptide: Honestly, the silence of Lance and other supposedly "clean" cyclists in the face of constant positive drug tests, police raids, and even admissions of guilt by their fellow competitors is the most damning evidence that the use of doping and performance-enhancing drugs is widely accepted, if not universal, within the professional peloton. I don't necessarily disagree that I'm a little surprised that nobody has every spoken up to condemn these guys. But on the other hand, the pro peloton -- with some noteworthy exceptions -- is pretty tight knit. You can't afford to make enemies, because who knows who you'll need to work with in a breakaway, or to chase down a breakaway, etc. This is exactly what happened between Armstrong and Simeoni, so people probably learned from that.

By: Chuckles

Chuckles — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:43:17 -0800

I don't follow cycling that much, but why has no one mentioned Rasmussen? Clearly he is weak in time trials, but in this decimated field that may not matter.

By: Chuckles

Chuckles — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 14:59:16 -0800

It's official: Vinokourov, Astaná-Wuerth out.

By: subaruwrx

subaruwrx — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 15:43:10 -0800

I really dont like these allegations. Ullrich and Armstrong have never tested positive for any performance enhancing drugs. Also, when recovering from surgery, Armstrong had to have some HGH, steroids or other drugs to help him recover. Im sure he did, because you dont bounce back fom cancer like that without something. However, he may have never used it in the training or competition of any major events. I think that makes it ok. Of course, I also think Barry should be left alone until he is proven to have taken drugs. Everyone is 99% sure he has taken steroids, but for that 1%, I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt. I remember a movie where one of the football players got huge over the summer and the coaches were saying he was juicing. It was pretty obvious, but the head coach backed them off by saying that its not impossible to get that big over the summer, if you hit the gym really hard. I think blindly implocating someone just becasue they are so good at what they do (Armstrong, Ullrich) is unfair, because there is that 1% chance that they could have done it all legitimately and these allegations really take away from and trivialize the hard work they have put into their passions... For me, Until it is proven that these guys are cheating, I am going to have respect for them as proud, hard working athletes. Bonds, on teh other hand, is hard to still have respect for...

By: fixedgear

fixedgear — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 17:26:12 -0800

I'm catching the next plane to Strasbourg. I figure they'll let anybody who can pass a piss test race at this point. What a fucking joke. Sucks that Vino can't ride, though, if only 'cause they can't fill the squad. So it'll be a big year for the remaining 'mericans, Floyd, Levi, Dave Z.

By: the painkiller

the painkiller — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 18:11:15 -0800

of course by danielson, i really meant hincapie. i need some EPO for my brain.

By: markr

markr — Fri, 30 Jun 2006 19:23:14 -0800

Interesting to look at last years placings: 1. Lance - retired 2. Basso - gone 3. Ulrich - gone 4. Mancebo - gone 5. Vino - gone 6. Leipheimer 7. Rasmussen 8. Cadel Evans 9. Landis Hopefully Cadel can take it, he's been time-trialing well this season, and there's a few long TTs this year.

By: eriko

eriko — Sat, 01 Jul 2006 04:48:08 -0800

Also, when recovering from surgery, Armstrong had to have some HGH, steroids or other drugs to help him recover Massive doses of steroids, and perfectly legal. Lance took a big risk with his cancer treatment. The normal course of chemo would have reduced his lung's ability to take in oxygen permanently. He wouldn't have been disabled, but it would have ended his racing career. Instead, he chose a much harsher course of chemo that wouldn't damage his lungs. I really feel for Vino, who wasn't touched by this, but with ASO not allowing team replacments, Astana just didn't have the six minimum needed to race.

By: bluesky43

bluesky43 — Sat, 01 Jul 2006 16:58:51 -0800

Chuckles - that accounting of alleged dopers and finishing position is heart breaking. If the allegations prove true, it would seem that anyone finishing in that top group would have to be doping just to stay in contention. Cycling is such a beautiful sport and this would ruin in. I don't think it can survive yet another of these scandals.

By: Chuckles

Chuckles — Sat, 01 Jul 2006 20:48:44 -0800

For the record, my chart has Vinokourov's two top five finishes marked with an X. At this point it looks like he is not implicated. That would make him the only "clean" rider, other than Mr. Armstrong, with more than one top five finish in the last seven years. In fact, when I initially made the chart I had question marks in Vinokourov's finishes, then I "corrected" it.. Doh!

By: WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot

WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot — Thu, 06 Jul 2006 21:50:37 -0800

Re: "azevedo being given the #1 for the disco boys" - he's certainly a contender, but he has the alphabet to thank for the honor of wearing that number.