Comments on: In Praise Of Loopholes, Part II

In Praise Of Loopholes, Part II

scrump — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 12:55:40 -0800

For Orthodox Jewish mothers with small children, the Shabbat can be challenging. The answer, for many communities, is the establishment of an eruv (discussed previously here, in passing). This San Francisco Chronicle article details the history behind Berkeley, California's unique instance. This isn't the first time an eruv has been attempted in the Bay Area: the failed effort to create one in Palo Alto was covered by the Chronicle, as well as the Jewish News Weekly. Berkeley isn't the only United States city with an eruv—the Boston eruv maintains a large list of domestic and international eruvim—nor is it the city with the most unusual eruv, or even the largest. Inevitably, perhaps, there's a blog entirely dedicated to the subject of eruvim, and vigorous commentary on the subject from several others.

By: Mayor Curley

Mayor Curley — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:12:44 -0800

Why would God make a law if he wanted you to weasel your way out of it? Why would an all-powerful being force you to wear a hat and not carry stuff, anyway? Just to fuck with you and laugh? You know He's totally doing that when he orders those people to cut off part of their babies' wieners. God probably wishes He'd told some group to put diced meat up their asses on thursdays or something now. But not orthodox jews, because apparently they'd just put a little bit in their back pocket and say "close enough."

By: matteo

matteo — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:15:39 -0800

Just to fuck with you and laugh? this morning I was reading Job, and frankly, the answer seems to be yes

By: monju_bosatsu

monju_bosatsu — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:19:36 -0800

MetaFilter: Diced meat up their asses on thursdays.

By: jikel_morten

jikel_morten — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:24:15 -0800

God will smite the loopholers.

By: tastybrains

tastybrains — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:26:20 -0800

Why would an all-powerful being force you to wear a hat and not carry stuff, anyway? Why would God make babies that can't walk right away and then expect you not to carry them? This is one of life's great mysteries.

By: blacklite

blacklite — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:29:56 -0800

this is hilarious.

By: Postroad

Postroad — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:30:13 -0800

For those oh-so-smart commenters, please note that million of children and adults did not find a loophole when Hitler began to figurateively stick it up their asses.

By: amber_dale

amber_dale — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:30:43 -0800

There was some interesting litigation dealing with the establishment of an eruv in New Jersey. The town selectively enforced an ordinance so the eruv could not be attached to utility poles, while lost dog posters and the like got a pass. The Third Circuit said that violated the First Amendment. Here's a link to the opinion (pdf).

By: piratebowling

piratebowling — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:34:35 -0800

Judaism is all about interpretation and rigorous thought. Deaing with laws that describe what requires "work" and "rest" using terminology that doesn't consider modern innovation often require creative rulings. Orthodox Jews therefore occasionally come up with an understanding of what satisfies said law that seems "crazy" to outsiders. So fucking what? Does that give anyone else reason to snark and be a dick about it? Judaism, even in it's most orthodox forms, is less intrusive into other's lives than most mainstram religions. So what if they want to stay home on saturday with their fridge light taped into the "on" position because they consider opening the door the same as striking a match in that instance? So what if they decide to extend the meaning of private space so a woman can carry her baby? How does it fucking effect you? But please, do go on about how much smarter/better/whatever you feel you are than religious individuals.

By: tastybrains

tastybrains — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:38:38 -0800

Judaism, even in it's most orthodox forms, is less intrusive into other's lives than most mainstram religions. Except for all of the orthodox women who were raised to believe that they are second rate beings who have to invent loopholes so they can carry their children, or otherwise be prisoners in their homes. I guess my only issue with orthodox Judaism is the sexism - my same issue with pretty much every other major organized religion on earth.

By: Malor

Malor — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:45:01 -0800

Postroad, the fact that they were persecuted for their beliefs have nothing whatsoever to do with their validity. Shame on you for invoking Godwin when it was completely unrelated.

By: Alexandros

Alexandros — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:46:19 -0800

piratebowling: Agreed. But you know what? I don't want to see the same folks who are defending this turn around in the next thread about Catholicism or Islam and go on about how it's fucking ridiculous that they believe in the consecration of the eucharist or Mohammed receiving visions from Allah. Because God knows I have seen that sort of thing about 352,126 times on Metafilter.

By: Malor

Malor — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:46:21 -0800

s/beliefs have/beliefs has/

By: piratebowling

piratebowling — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:47:18 -0800

tastybrains, you are correct, Orthodox Judaism has some serious issues with Women (Including how they workd descriminiory treatment in language that makes it so scholars can say "we reat women like theis becuas they are more special, we honor them). But that is not th issue I was discussing when I was talking about intrusiveness. I was talking about getting accosted by missionisers on the street, or hearing about how their specific "Jewish Values" need to be upheld in national law. Forget it. This is gonna start a shitstorm no matter what, I'm going ot try to duck out now.

By: prostyle

prostyle — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:48:10 -0800

dealing with laws that describe what requires "work" and "rest" using terminology that doesn't consider modern innovation often require creative rulings. While, on the other hand, living your life based on ancient dogma that doesn't consider modern innovation is completely practical. See the rub? You don't even have to try to be condescending, it's so clearly ridiculous that there's no intelligent comment that won't come across as crass and dismissive. The pace of that conversation would be like two boxers duking it out with their hands tied behind their backs, randomly shuffling about, slamming their greasy bodies against each other with no apparent point. Does that give anyone else reason to snark and be a dick about it? Who needs a reason? Because God knows I have seen that sort of thing about 352,126 times on Metafilter. Fantastic.

By: piratebowling

piratebowling — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:49:32 -0800

Alexandros, I agree with you completely. I am not advcating special treatment for Jews. I think all religions need equal respect, I'm just sick of (inevitably) the first post on a religios thread in metafilter being a post says "Here's why I'm better/smarter than the followers of this religion."

By: tastybrains

tastybrains — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:49:53 -0800

piratebowling - Sorry, I misinterpreted your point. I agree that people should be able to go about their daily business, no matter what I think of it. I also agree that this thread really can't go anywhere good, and am going to follow your lead in ducking out.

By: bugbread

bugbread — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:51:21 -0800

Postroad : "For those oh-so-smart commenters, please note that million of children and adults did not find a loophole when Hitler began to figurateively stick it up their asses." Since we've moved on to "random information related to jews that contains the word loophole", let me augment your insightful comment with this: please note that Ben, the jewish guy studying astrophysics across the hall from me in my college dorm, found a loophole that allowed him to keep a pet turtle, even though pets were not allowed in the dorm." Also, "There are many, many jewish people who know how to spell 'loophole'". I hope these two examples help you to make whatever point it is you were trying to make.

By: Mayor Curley

Mayor Curley — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 13:55:16 -0800

So what if they decide to extend the meaning of private space so a woman can carry her baby? How does it fucking effect you? I'm not saying they shouldn't be allowed to do it. I'm just saying that it's funny. Sincerely, I'm glad that orthodox jews are very insular and wish that all very religious groups would follow their lead of looking through me. I think all religions need equal respect Hug a rainbow, brother!

By: The Bellman

The Bellman — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 14:01:48 -0800

I have to say, bugbread and Postroad, this thread sure took a turn for the surreal more quickly than I would have expected.

By: rollbiz

rollbiz — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 14:04:21 -0800

Postroad : "For those oh-so-smart commenters, please note that million of children and adults did not find a loophole when Hitler began to figurateively stick it up their asses." Compare apples and avocados much? This is idiotic and belongs here much less than the comments it criticizes.

By: blacklite

blacklite — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 14:05:51 -0800

"Here's why I'm better/smarter than the followers of this religion." Hey, what the fuck. If it makes me a horrible person to think that I've got my shit together better than people who feel that God will smite them if they take their sandwich into their back yard without putting up a laser light "fence" around it first, I guess I'm a horrible person. Please buy my future book which will point out the flaws in thinking that mindless tolerance is a useful replacement for critical discussion.

By: piratebowling

piratebowling — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 14:07:26 -0800

I'm sorry, blacklite, I must have missed that "critical discussion" you mentioned.n Please, by all means, point it out.

By: Gamblor

Gamblor — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 14:11:11 -0800

piratebowling: I think all religions need equal respect Agreed. And the amount of the respect they deserve is very little.

By: Kifer85

Kifer85 — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 14:22:51 -0800

blacklite--most jews dont believe that not following the law will cause god to smite them. They see it as an inherited duty and it is instilled through an education based on intellectual examination of the law and tradition, not through fear.

By: Mayor Curley

Mayor Curley — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 14:23:02 -0800

I'm sorry, blacklite, I must have missed that "critical discussion" you mentioned.n Please, by all means, point it out. Point 1: What's the point of believing a restriction was put in place by Almighty God if you only make some concessions to it rather than follow it? Point 2: Is it ridiculous to think that an all-powerful being who created the universe and everything in it would actually tell you not to carry your baby one day a week? Or force you to wear a hat? (Or eat wafers or whatever.)

By: Keith Talent

Keith Talent — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 14:23:29 -0800

So somehow a pretend wall, crossable by anyone, therefore not a barrier at all is supposed to please God? People are strange.

By: scblackman

scblackman — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 14:23:48 -0800

Tsk. Tsk. What a shame - to find such a nice loophole after I've paid my Shabbos Goy in full for the year.

By: [expletive deleted]

[expletive deleted] — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 14:26:45 -0800

This is what keeps me coming back to metafilter, the snide and the snark. Seriously, it's entertaining. While, on the other hand, living your life based on ancient dogma that doesn't consider modern innovation is completely practical. See the rub? You don't even have to try to be condescending, it's so clearly ridiculous that there's no intelligent comment that won't come across as crass and dismissive. So what if they want to stay home on saturday with their fridge light taped into the "on" position because they consider opening the door the same as striking a match in that instance? So what if they decide to extend the meaning of private space so a woman can carry her baby? How does it fucking effect you? Mocking people's beliefs and ideas is funny, see? This isn't sarcasm. Even if you live your life based on ancient dogma, surely you can find some other ancient dogma that you percieve to be more ridiculous. What makes Metafilter great is that we can have raucous, snide, sometimes nasty arguments about something that other people feel the need to kill over. We use our words, and the result is hilarious.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 14:27:47 -0800

Jews don't have to wear hats. Just a tradition. Yump da da dump da dump, tradition!

By: Malor

Malor — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 14:38:33 -0800

One thing that really fascinates me here is that the rules about Shabbat are obviously strange and rather contradictory. Rather than actually examining the beliefs directly and realizing that they ARE strange and contradictory, and just ceasing to follow the ones that don't make sense.... they work around the limitation by adding in a whole new set of rules. It reminds me a lot of when I was a little kid, and the witches would get me at night when it was dark, unless I stayed completely under the covers. Witches, you see, can't reach under the blankets to get helpless children... only if something sticks out can they grab you. But then the air gets kinda stale and nasty, so if you arrange the covers _just so_, and make a tunnel, you can breathe fresh air but the witches still can't get in. And if you need to go to the bathroom, if you run real fast, close the door quick, and turn on the light, they can't get you. And sometimes, when you forgot something on the floor, you can reach down to find it. If you do it fast enough, they won't get you then either.

By: greatgefilte

greatgefilte — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 14:45:31 -0800

Actually, I was once going to write an essay about the concept of Eruv and why such a blatant loophole is allowed. Something to do with the fact that building a public Eruv takes an entire community, who all have to cooperate and come together for their own mutual benefit, blah blah blah. Then all the Orthodox Jews in Brooklyn starting fighting over whether their Eruv is kosher or not. So much for that.

By: scrump

scrump — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 14:49:29 -0800

Malor, you're forgetting the sharks. You can only evade them by staying in your bed, on the top of the mattress, no limbs over the side: they'll jump up and take an arm or leg clean off. Also, you drop something on the floor, it's gone, baby, until the light goes on. The only safe way to get to the bathroom is to run like hell to the door and hope there aren't any sharks in the immediate area. Unlike the witches, the sharks aren't instantaneous, they have to swim over from the wall. Plus, once you turn on the light, no sharks. Of course, everyone knows that the shark/witch zone stops at the line of carpet at the door, but you have to have both feet on the hall carpet, or they can still get you.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 14:50:55 -0800

You know, very few Jews think God is up in heaven with a ledger,marking down if you happened to light a lightswitch or carry your keys on Shabbos. They do it because their communial identity is tied into these traditions, many of them enjoy the traditions, many of them enjoy identifying themselves as the sorts of Jews who try wholeheartedly to create an environment based on traditional interpretations of Jewish law, and they do it because they think there is something valuable in seperated one day as sacred from the rest of the profane week. It's not an easy task, but who said the act of making something unique and meaningful was easy? As for loopholes -- well, they don't just exist because Jews like to worm their way out of contracts. They exist becasue a tradition may put undue hardship on a member of the community, and, if there is way within that tradition to relieve that hardship, it should be explored. It just doesn't seem like this is something people need to make much of a fuss about, or throw on their sense of personal superiority. The Ultra Orthodoxy of Judaism, which rejects modernity, represents only about 3 percent of the Jewish community. Most Orthodx really do live in the 20th century, really do address the needsof modernity, but try to do so trough the lens of tradition.

By: i_am_joe's_spleen

i_am_joe's_spleen — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 14:57:47 -0800

Malor, these halachic contortions are the epicycles of Judaism. The funny thing is that the extension goes both ways. Eg, here we have the eruv, which from the outside appears to weaken the prohibition on work. Yet something as basic as separating meat and dairy comes from extending the commandment "thou shalt not seethe the kid in its mother's milk" into something far more onerous than not eating goat korma, just to be on the safe side. It seems to me that half of all rabbinical rulings are in the direction of leniency, lest the law be too hard on you, and the other half are on strictness, lest we accidentally annoy God by misunderstanding what he was really asking. (And then there are the rulings that prohibit something not because it is forbidden in itself, but because it might lead to something forbidden, or cause other people to do something forbidden through misunderstanding). Mayor Curley, the answer is that we don't and can't know *exactly* what God wants. So we fill in the gaps as best we can. It's God, it doesn't have to make sense.

By: i_am_joe's_spleen

i_am_joe's_spleen — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 14:58:28 -0800

(Or to put it another way, if you're committed to the irrational idea of God, why insist that anything else be rational?)

By: carter

carter — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 15:00:19 -0800

Loophole, schmoophole ... This must go on in orthodox religions of every stripe, all the time. I like the idea that you could walk around a city and see bits of string and wire tied to things, and realise that these could have a deep cosmological significance for somebody. It's like a landscape hidden within a landscape.

By: carter

carter — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 15:02:20 -0800

P.S. Mayor Curley, that diced meat example is hilarious.

By: luriete

luriete — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 15:08:08 -0800

my favorite Shabbat loophole: The elevators in Israel that stop on every floor on the sabbath, so you don't have to push a button. Because, you know, having CONTROL over the machinery is work, but the machinery wasting even more power by stopping and starting on every floor, as long as you don't push a button, isn't.

By: MikeMc

MikeMc — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 15:23:11 -0800

"Then all the Orthodox Jews in Brooklyn starting fighting over whether their Eruv is kosher or not. So much for that." The time and energy devoted to these types of debates just boggles my mind. Not being Jewish, or even religious, I just don't "get" it. A cursory examination of some of the linked articles leads me to believe that there are probably people out there that make their life's work out of defining things like "work" and "wall". How do people remember all of countless little nuances and details day in and day out? If you're not sure if sometrhing constitutes "work" do you just not do it (cuz you certainly can't pick up a phone and call someone)? Seriously.

By: bugbread

bugbread — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 15:23:35 -0800

I dunno, that makes sense to me. I presume that the rule is that people can't work, not that machines can't work. Regarding Astro Zombie's comment that some jews don't follow these teachings to get into God's Daily Ledger, but just because it is tradition, that rings true to me, because I knew a very strongly atheistic jew (as in ethnicity, not religion, obviously) who observed all kinds of traditions and rules despite not believing one iota in any form of divine entity.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 15:24:25 -0800

When you've followed the rules of the Shabbos for your entire life, you've pretty much got the rules down.

By: rob paxon

rob paxon — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 16:05:43 -0800

Has anyone yet come up with a loophole to the Golden Rule that allows me to have anal intercourse without having to worry about letting the woman stick something up MY ass? TIA, I'm really worried about this. It didn't take someone long to bring up that Hitler had some Jews killed. Let's all take a moment of silence to reflect on the relevancy, I think we need it. Good stuff from the Mayor there. Honestly folks, most reasonable people, regardless of their faith or lack thereof, are going to be able to find these rules and loopholes ridiculously hilarious. Why? Because they are, of course. posted by [expletive deleted]: This isn't sarcasm. Even if you live your life based on ancient dogma, surely you can find some other ancient dogma that you percieve to be more ridiculous. Great point there. To take it a step further, I'll say that it is because ancient dogma of all forms is downright batty. LOL @ Zuess throwing lightning bolts. Come on, you know you all have, so LOL along with me. I can do anything I want as long as it is through this hole in the sheet! But why would you WANT to have sex with a computer? (Something along those lines; great show).

By: rob paxon

rob paxon — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 16:16:14 -0800

P.S. "Zeus". Apologies to any followers of Greek Mythology. Ancient Greeks suffered at the hands of Persians after all and I should take more care to not offend them.

By: 0xFCAF

0xFCAF — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 16:22:18 -0800

I think most reasonable individuals are capable of making a distinction between traditions like getting together at certain days in the winter season, singing certain songs, wearing attractive hats, etc. and traditions like amputating portions of babies' genitals, wasting time erecting a single-wire fence, and preventing women from leaving the house because they can't carry their children. I'm happy to respect the former regardless of why you think you should do them, but I have to take a more critical view of the latter. Would their faith be improved if they took the time they waiting for the elevator/tying their keys to their belt/not carrying things, and instead spent it on talking to their children or family members about the importance of faith, values, and why they do the traditions they do?

By: rob paxon

rob paxon — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 16:31:09 -0800

Good point, 0xFCAF , but of course then you'd be ignoring the inconsistent rulings made by centuries of Rabbis. Well, fully ignoring rather than just conveniently ignoring. It makes me think what our lives would be like if our court systems weren't allowed to overturn rulings or change interpretations over time. We have so much conflict in law as it is, I couldn't imagine. Maybe you'd be allowed to kill people indirectly, say by poisoning their wine or cutting their breaklines.

By: lineman

lineman — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 17:04:19 -0800

Please let me explain in layman’s terms. An eruv is not a loophole at all. There are very few areas where there is a Biblical proscription to carry on Shabbos. Carrying in other areas is only forbidden rabbinically. It was the Rabbis who prohibited carrying, and it was they who enacted the laws of eruvin to allow carrying. Some of the disagreements regarding eruvin are based on whether the area under consideration is regarded as a biblically proscribed area or not. Additionally, there is no specific prohibition against women carrying children, men can’t carry without an eruv as well.

By: Gamblor

Gamblor — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 17:30:29 -0800

0xFCAF, I see where you're coming from, and I wish more people were able to act that way. Reasonable individuals should be able to draw the line between quaint customs and self-inflicted harmful practices. But being reasonable means being able to reason, and when religion is involved, people tend to emphasize faith over critical thinking. If I say space aliens are watching me from up in the sky, you'd probably say I'm nuts. But if I say God is watching me from up in the sky, that changes everything, and you're not allowed to judge my opinion anymore. When you say something is a religious belief, it's supposed to be immune from judgement, or criticism, or especially ridicule. So what would you say if you had some neighbors who aren't religious, but they refuse to carry their babies in public on Saturdays unless there are some pieces of wire and string tied up around the block?

By: TheOnlyCoolTim

TheOnlyCoolTim — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 17:56:58 -0800

Every time I read about the intense Jewish law I think of some hugely complicated board game or RPG. Like they should be rolling a d20 and checking the manual to see if they made their saving throw. When I was in college dorms a couple years back the super Jews all lived on the third - fifth floor of a 17 story building because it was a sin to ride the elevator. Then we had hotel-style magcard swiper door locks, so it was a sin to use those, because it is the same as flicking as lightswitch, which is the same as suffering a witch to live or whatever. So every friday afternoon they put tape over the bolts so the door could not lock. If anyone else did that or otherwise arranged for their door to remain unlocked they got a $50 fine. On the bright side, though, I get to never ever have classes on Friday afternoons, because of all the sins the Jews would have to commit to get home after them. So that's nice.

By: naxosaxur

naxosaxur — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 17:57:34 -0800

>>Since we've moved on to "random information related to jews that contains the word loophole", let me augment your insightful comment with this: please note that Ben, the jewish guy studying astrophysics across the hall from me in my college dorm, found a loophole that allowed him to keep a pet turtle, even though pets were not allowed in the dorm." Also, "There are many, many jewish people who know how to spell 'loophole'". I hope these two examples help you to make whatever point it is you were trying to make. posted by bugbread at 10:51 PM CET on July 7 [+fave] [!] so what was his supplementary loophole to justify keeping a completely traf animal as a pet?

By: naxosaxur

naxosaxur — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 18:08:18 -0800

TheOnlyCoolTim, that was a great story. I'd love to hear more about your xenophobia of teh jews tia.

By: breath

breath — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 18:25:32 -0800

Like they should be rolling a d20 and checking the manual to see if they made their saving throw. Ha ha, cool analogy. I bet it's exactly the same sort of thinking that leads to both types of rule-following.

By: rob paxon

rob paxon — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 18:59:10 -0800

TheOnlyCoolTim, that was a great story. I'd love to hear more about your xenophobia of teh jews tia. posted by naxosaxur This is what qualifies for xenophobia these days?

By: TheOnlyCoolTim

TheOnlyCoolTim — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 19:02:56 -0800

TheOnlyCoolTim, that was a great story. I'd love to hear more about your xenophobia of teh jews tia. This one time, I heard that they had sex through a hole in a sheet. Also, they're always cooking with the blood of Gentile babies.

By: Mayor Curley

Mayor Curley — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 19:15:04 -0800

Also, they're always cooking with the blood of Gentile babies. How fucking long is it going to take to rid the world of that kind of slanderous bullshit? All this made up shit about jewish ritual murder really gets under my skin. It's a lie and you know it's a fucking lie. You know as well as I do that jews only need christian baby blood to make Passover matzoh. That's it-- once a year, in the spring. "Always cooking" indeed!

By: kozad

kozad — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 19:44:04 -0800

I live within a few blocks of Eruv territory and think it's pretty strange. I think it's nice to have a day of rest. I wouldn't even mind if the government told us: stop working for a day...it would be a nice break and maybe even make us nicer people cuz a day of total fucking rest is a good idea. And I think that tying the ideas about what kind of food you eat with your place in Heaven is ridiculous. I think the idea of making hair and dress an issue in your relationship with the Deity is absurd. You think He cares? But, then, I have worn red Tibetan initiatory threads until they fell off my wrist. To each, her own. The Golden Rule (and, even as a goyim, I prefer the lingusitic nuances of the Talmudic version) is good enough. Enough with the killing, though, OK?

By: Sir BoBoMonkey Pooflinger Esquire III

Sir BoBoMonkey Pooflinger Esquire III — Fri, 07 Jul 2006 22:28:20 -0800

Sometimes when a nut isn't tight, and it happens to be rusted in place, trying to tighten it up just ends up snapping the bolt off, leaving it useless. Fundamentally, for me, this, as well as many other oddities concerning the human species, comes down to the stress of change versus the stress of adaptation. Within a system or large social group, is change to an old system more stressful on that system/community, or is the forced non-adaptation to a changing environment more stressful. Both create stress and anxiety on the system, but which one is worse? Somehow I seem to best understand religious dogma in terms of mechanical systems needing to adapt. So, with my rusted nut analogy, sometimes what is needed is a little WD-40. In my opinion, that should be the religious leaders, slowly, carefully, applying a little bit of lubricant to the system, allowing it to turn if possible and knowing when to back off, because they have that special feel, that special understanding of the stress-fracture limits of metal. Their heads cocked to the side, the nerves in their hands on the wrench, the sixth sense coming in to let them know that either that damn nut will turn or that the bolt is gonna snap. But then, this way of thinking about it bases it somewhat in logic, and these sorts of things don't travel well in that realm. What the hell am I writing here exactly? I don't know, I'm lost too.

By: bugbread

bugbread — Sat, 08 Jul 2006 06:08:25 -0800

0xFCAF : "Would their faith be improved if they took the time they waiting for the elevator/tying their keys to their belt/not carrying things, and instead spent it on talking to their children or family members about the importance of faith, values, and why they do the traditions they do?" I may just be special, but I have an amazing ability to talk to people while waiting, tying things, and not carrying things. I'm somewhat surprised that you have to carry things in order to talk.

By: LittleMissCranky

LittleMissCranky — Sat, 08 Jul 2006 09:25:39 -0800

I think most reasonable individuals are capable of making a distinction between traditions like getting together at certain days in the winter season, singing certain songs, wearing attractive hats, etc. and traditions like amputating portions of babies' genitals, wasting time erecting a single-wire fence, and preventing women from leaving the house because they can't carry their children. In other words, reasonable individuals can clearly see that your traditions are super, and other traditions are lame. Convenient, that. Care to explain why erecting a single-wire fence is such a colossal waste of time, but apparently dyeing hard-boiled eggs or shopping for "attractive hats" isn't?

By: Goofyy

Goofyy — Mon, 10 Jul 2006 01:20:08 -0800

Since when is a child, created in the image of G_d, a 'thing'? Here's the loophole folks: Your kids aren't 'things'. Just a thought from a goy. Shallom, anyway.