Comments on: "An archaic, vestigial piece of ridiculousness."

"An archaic, vestigial piece of ridiculousness."

EarBucket — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 10:19:41 -0800

A judge has thrown out a 201-year-old North Carolina law making it illegal for unmarried couples to live together. The case was previously discussed here.

By: psmealey

psmealey — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 10:21:41 -0800

This is an outrage. Someone must stop these liberal activist judges.

By: internet!Hannah

internet!Hannah — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 10:24:30 -0800

By: chunking express

chunking express — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 10:28:13 -0800

But people who live together before they are married might have sex. It's a very real possibility. What will Alabama do now? What will they do? Let us all pray.

By: Witty

Witty — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 10:28:32 -0800

...I hope it doesn't get appealed or overturned. It won't. Not much to discuss here really.

By: chunking express

chunking express — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 10:28:40 -0800

And by Alabama, I do mean North Carolina. We should pray for everyone I suppose.

By: It's Raining Florence Henderson

It's Raining Florence Henderson — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 10:29:42 -0800

Couples who marry are 100% more likely to divorce. Divorce doesn't kill marriages - marriages do! There is only one way to save this sacred institution - we must kill it before it can commit suicide!!!

By: easternblot

easternblot — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 10:35:35 -0800

I didn't even know this was illegal anywhere. I mean in the western world. (I'm kind of shocked at how naive I was to think that it was nobody's business who you live with.) Crazy!

By: Pastabagel

Pastabagel — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 10:42:49 -0800

There should be a law making it illegal for jowly white men over the age of 60 to have a stern countenance.

By: triolus

triolus — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 10:43:05 -0800

I'm amazed by this as well.. I know a lot of states have some really old socially conservative laws, but this takes the cake. How could you even enforce this? It'd be like locking someone up for being gay. Or for being with someone who isn't in your ethnic group. .. oh, wait...

By: sequential

sequential — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 10:43:09 -0800

I didn't even know this was illegal anywhere.

Surprisingly, it's on the books in a variety of ways in some states. In 2003, when I lived with my partner in Florida, we consulted an accountant regarding our filing status. Given she was in school, was of the proper age, and met all income guidelines, I was under the impression that I could claim her as a dependant. The accountant informed us that in some other states that this was possible, but because of an old law that made cohabitation by unmarried couples illegal I could not do so in the state of Florida. He then explained that this law had not been enforced for a long time, but was left on the books as a tax incentive for marriage.

By: Western Infidels

Western Infidels — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 10:46:20 -0800

Does anyone know what the law actually said? Was it OK to live with someone you weren't having sex with? Was it legal to live with someone you weren't in love with? Would it be legal for, say, a brother and a sister to live under the same roof, or was that forbidden, too? How exactly do you write such a law without a ton of stupid unintended consequences?

By: Witty

Witty — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 10:49:44 -0800

201 years ago folks.

By: Faint of Butt

Faint of Butt — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 10:54:03 -0800

There should be a law making it illegal for jowly white men over the age of 60 to have a stern countenance. They'd better not, Pastabagel. Look for my stern jowls sometime around 2040.

By: tadellin

tadellin — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 10:56:53 -0800

What will Alabama do now? I think Alabama should invade Canada (AKA France's little sister). Shouldn't take more than a few of our National Guardsmen, and then we can all have beaver pelts!

By: caddis

caddis — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 11:03:15 -0800

I am glad to see another nanny state law struck down. Why do people hate freedom?

By: scottreynen

scottreynen — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 11:04:56 -0800

I know a lot of states have some really old socially conservative laws, but this takes the cake. How could you even enforce this? You couldn't. That's exactly why old laws like this are still in effect. No one enforces them, so they can't possibly get challenged in court. There's a whole bunch of similar dumb laws at dumblaws.com.

By: Smart Dalek

Smart Dalek — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 11:06:04 -0800

sequential's only scratched the surface. If unmarried couples were prmitted to rent/lease together, folks might feel inclined to experiment with...notions of rent control.

By: justgary

justgary — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 11:07:01 -0800

And by Alabama, I do mean North Carolina. We should pray for everyone I suppose. posted by chunking express Don't worry 'bout it chunking. Alabama, North Carolina, Florida, it's all the same. Don't stress your brain trying to see them as individual states.

By: glenwood

glenwood — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 11:10:27 -0800

Alabama, North Carolina, Florida, it's all the same. Don't stress your brain trying to see them as individual states. If you actually believe that then you haven't spent very much time in any of them, I assure you.

By: George_Spiggott

George_Spiggott — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 11:14:25 -0800

Couples who marry are 100% more likely to divorce. Put more clearly, married people account for 100% of all divorces.

By: chunking express

chunking express — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 11:14:37 -0800

glenwood, I think justgary was being funny and making fun of me.

By: It's Raining Florence Henderson

It's Raining Florence Henderson — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 11:16:53 -0800

I do not wish to be put more clearly. Obscurity is my only defense.

By: George_Spiggott

George_Spiggott — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 11:17:39 -0800

Also 100% of all spousal abuse and 100% of all marital infidelity. It's a scourge, I tell you.

By: glenwood

glenwood — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 11:18:13 -0800

Ok. Sorry I missed the context. We blue-county southerners can be awful jittery and defensive sometimes.

By: Plutor

Plutor — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 11:23:29 -0800

I would like to see the studies cited by the person who said that couples who cohabitated prior to marriage were more likely to divorce. The CDC released the results of its Cohabitation, Marriage, Divorce, and Remarriage in the United States (5M PDF) study in 1998. Among many other things, it points out that that there's a nine percentage-point difference in the rate of divorce in the first ten years for spouses who cohabited before marriage compared to those who didn't. It's not a huge difference, granted, and it's disputed.

By: It's Raining Florence Henderson

It's Raining Florence Henderson — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 11:23:30 -0800

Also 100% of all marital relations. Mothersinlaw, for the less interesting example.

By: oaf

oaf — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 11:33:30 -0800

In 2003, when I lived with my partner in Florida, we consulted an accountant regarding our filing status. But you'd just go by federal regulations, anyway, wouldn't you, since you're filing a federal tax return?

By: Marla Singer

Marla Singer — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 11:33:58 -0800

I would like to see the studies cited by the person who said that couples who cohabitated prior to marriage were more likely to divorce. I had been under the impression that the large majority of studies found the opposite. Still, this is a good ruling, and I hope it doesn't get appealed or overturned. posted by internet!Hannah at 10:24 AM PST on July 21 Sorry, but you heard wrong. Sociological studies have shown over and over that couples who cohabit before marriage are more likely to divorce. There are various theories for why this is. As one example, the super-uptight, no-hanky-panky-before-marriage crowd are less likely to divorce later because, well gosh, they made a commitment before GOD! In a church! They might go to hell if they get divorced! Not that any statistical fact gives the state a right to manage peoples' private lives. What a screwy country this is, where homosexual couples who want to marry can't, and heterosexual couples who don't want to marry are legally required to.

By: jennyb

jennyb — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 11:44:07 -0800

I am proud to have broken that law for the entire four years that I lived in North Carolina, even though I didn't know it existed until today. When we were first looking for housing, we looked at an apartment managed by a property company that displayed a sign in their offices that said: Property Company will not rent to unmarried couples. I always wondered how they could do that, and I guess this explains it.

By: Zozo

Zozo — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 11:44:17 -0800

Sociological studies have shown over and over that couples who cohabit before marriage are more likely to divorce. Please cite one. I'm not being bitchy; I would actually like to see one. I've always been curious.

By: JanetLand

JanetLand — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 11:44:25 -0800

Does anyone know what the law actually said? Here's the law. "If any man and woman, not being married to each other, shall lewdly and lasciviously associate, bed and cohabit together, they shall be guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor" What's interesting, looking at the history of it, is that it was revised in some way as late as 1994, which means it's not like it's been sitting there unnoticed since 1805.

By: Zozo

Zozo — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 11:45:43 -0800

Oh: please make sure you're citing one that proves that the cohabitation is what causes the divorce. Thanks.

By: sfts2

sfts2 — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 11:48:01 -0800

Can gay couples cohabit?

By: caddis

caddis — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 11:59:14 -0800

No one is saying that it causes divorce, but I too have seen these studies that show higher rates of divorce for couples that cohabit prior to marriage. I am not going search for one for you though.

By: Zozo

Zozo — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 12:05:09 -0800

My second comment was bitchy, and I apologize. I've honestly never seen a study that even correlated the two, but I may not have been looking hard enough. Marla's aside about the super-uptight is in line with the research I've seen: that those who are willing to cohabitate are probably more open to the idea of divorce if the marriage goes poorly, as opposed to those who object to either regardless of circumstance; I've just never seen proof that it actually affected statistics. Couples who cohabitate premaritally may be more likely to divorce, but premarital cohabitation doesn't make a couple more likely to divorce. You hear that, Mom? Stop calling me.

By: blucevalo

blucevalo — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 12:08:36 -0800

I read an article about this decision the other day that mentioned that Michigan was one of only seven states that still had a cohabitation law on the books. I find a perverse satisfaction in the fact that while I lived in that state for almost 3 years under the same roof with my same-sex partner, I was guilty of a crime known as "lewd and lascivious cohabitation and gross lewdness" (Michigan Penal Code, Act 328, Michigan Compiled Laws 750.335), which is "a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 1 year, or a fine of not more than $1,000.00."

By: Plutor

Plutor — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 12:09:37 -0800

Zozo, I already cited one. Quit ignoring it.

By: Plutor

Plutor — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 12:10:45 -0800

As for correlation vs. causation, my gut and unmarried.org agree with you.

By: weretable and the undead chairs

weretable and the undead chairs — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 12:12:42 -0800

Debora Lynn Hobbs, a Pender County emergency dispatcher, filed the constitutional challenge last year after Sheriff Carson Smith discovered she had a live-in boyfriend and gave her an ultimatum: marry, move or leave her job. Wow. What a fucking asshole.

By: bardic

bardic — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 12:19:15 -0800

Does this mean I can have sex with dogs now?

By: Bugbread

Bugbread — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 12:20:38 -0800

Marla Singer : "heterosexual couples who don't want to marry are legally required to." ???

By: Zozo

Zozo — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 12:22:02 -0800

I wasn't ignoring it, Plutor, I missed it. Thanks.

By: caddis

caddis — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 12:34:15 -0800

Plutor, I just skimmed it but didn't see a statistic on marriage stability following cohabitation versus not following cohabitation. Is that really there, and if so where? I saw stuff on stability of cohabitation relationships but that is different.

By: ZenMasterThis

ZenMasterThis — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 12:44:53 -0800

What will Alabama do now? Force unmarried first cousins to live separately?

By: Mitheral

Mitheral — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 12:51:37 -0800

triolus writes "How could you even enforce this?" Isn't there some places in the states that make you get a habitation permit everytime you move if you are renting?

By: Pastabagel

Pastabagel — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 13:26:23 -0800

Can gay couples cohabit? posted by sfts2 at 2:48 PM EST on July 21 [+fave] [!] Yes, but not too closely.

By: Mr_Zero

Mr_Zero — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 13:41:24 -0800

But people who live together before they are married might have sex. It's a very real possibility. What will Alabama do now? What will they do? Same thing they have always done. Have sex with their brothers and sisters.

By: Plutor

Plutor — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 13:52:19 -0800

Plutor, I just skimmed it but didn't see a statistic on marriage stability following cohabitation versus not following cohabitation. Hm, I've skimmed it twice now myself and come to the same conclusion. I kind of assumed it was in there, since unmarried.org refuted it specifically. I don't feel like reading all hundred-plus pages in detail, so I don't know for a fact that it makes the claim that they allege is inaccurate.

By: EarBucket

EarBucket — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 17:03:55 -0800

Here's the results of one study that seems to indicate cohabitants have a higher divorce rate. They conclude it's probably due to several factors, including the fact that the kind of people who aren't willing to cohabitate before marriage are also more averse to divorce once they're married. In addition, a person's standards may be somewhat lower when chosing a cohabitation partner than when choosing a spouse--and once in that cohabitating relationship, the inertia of common living space and shared possessions can sometimes carry into a marriage. That said, my fiancee and I are glad to finally be cohabiting legally.

By: jokeefe

jokeefe — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 19:03:25 -0800

One possibility is that couples who are living together may decide to marry in an attempt to shore up relationships which are starting to come apart, or to revive ones that are failing. I can say that I know of a few couples who married after living together for a number of years, and that the marriages were over within another year or two.

By: mediareport

mediareport — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 19:03:28 -0800

Can gay couples cohabit? Sure, it's one of the benefits to living queer in a straight-centric world. We had it extra good in NC up until last summer, when the legislature expanded the indecent exposure law to include incidents of exposure to either gender. Damn them, we were having such fun exposing ourselves willy-nilly with impunity. Anyone interested in this cohabitation case, btw, should glance at the NC Family Policy Council's policy paper from last year, "Living Together: How Cohabitation Undermines Marriage and the Family." [pdf] They really, really, *really* want laws against fornication and cohabitation strictly enforced.

By: flarbuse

flarbuse — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 20:15:05 -0800

Adult Probation in my county in North Carolina was recently instructed to start violating people who are on probation for living with a member of the opposite sex. Most of the judges have been ignoring it as a violation when it is brought before them and leaving the terms and conditions of the defendants' probation unchanged. We have, however, had a Superior Court judge who has for years made a specific term of probation be that the defendant may not cohabitate with a member of the opposite sex that he/she is not married to. This same judge also explained to me on one occassion why lying about a blow job was much worse than lying about reasons for invading a country.

By: dopeypanda

dopeypanda — Fri, 21 Jul 2006 23:49:57 -0800

Do these studies correct for the length of time that people were cohabitating before getting married? (i.e. you should compare time since first living together rather than time since marriage).