Comments on: It's complicated.

It's complicated.

Meatbomb — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 07:28:14 -0800

Who hates who in the Middle East. An interactive chart from Slate. Click the graphic on the page to access the chart. Click on any cell for more details.

By: Artw

Artw — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 07:36:33 -0800

The "interaction" seems to be restricted to clicking on each sqaure in the grid and getting a pop up with a miniscule amount of information. I can't help feeling that a better designed chart would have conveyed the same information much more effectively without all the clicking. Oh, and SLATE and GOOD DESIGN == ENEMIES.

By: Faint of Butt

Faint of Butt — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 07:38:58 -0800

The design could have been better, but on the whole I thought it was quite clever and educational. Thanks, Meatbomb. (Let the pile-ons begin to show how wrong and stupid I am.)

By: SeizeTheDay

SeizeTheDay — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 07:40:42 -0800

I thought that it was really cool as well. We can't all be complete experts on every relationship in the Middle East and this clarifies things a bit.

By: ChasFile

ChasFile — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 07:48:18 -0800

Grammar police! "Who hates whom in the Middle East?""

By: jonmc

jonmc — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 07:51:17 -0800

Everybody hates whom in the middle east. The whom are a shifty bunch.

By: signal

signal — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 07:57:01 -0800

Faint of Butt writes "The design could have been better," "better"? They should have had a design to start with.

By: Artw

Artw — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 07:57:12 -0800

I hear that the Whom bombed the Kurds simply on the grounds that everybody else has and they didn't want to be left out. Now that's cold.

By: Shfishp

Shfishp — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 07:57:17 -0800

I thought the point and click design was quick, easy and quite efficient. I think ARTW and NITPICKY == FRIENDS. Thanks, Meatbomb.

By: Eekacat

Eekacat — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 07:58:19 -0800

I thought The Whom were a pretty good band.

By: Unregistered User

Unregistered User — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 08:01:31 -0800

It's not that complicated... Truly pissed off former UK ambassador to Uzbekistan Craig Murray (23 July 2006):

British diplomats at the UK Mission to the United Nations in New York - people I know personally - are putting massive effort into working against a ceasefire. ... Our policy now is to slavishly follow the Bush line that Israel may unilaterally define its own borders.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 08:02:09 -0800

I thought The Whom were a pretty good band. They were the ones who asked politely before smashing their guitars, right?

By: empath

empath — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 08:02:53 -0800

Where's Jordan?

By: jonmc

jonmc — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 08:07:07 -0800

He disappeared after the New Kids split up.

By: Stauf

Stauf — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 08:09:17 -0800

"better"? They should have had a design to start with. Har, har... Seriously, I thought it was neatly informative, particularly for those who haven't been keeping up.

By: Smart Dalek

Smart Dalek — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 08:10:27 -0800

They were the ones who asked politely before smashing their guitars, right? No, that was The Mercy Beat. It was hard to understand what instruments The Whom played, since they performed in silhouette, with lots of fog effects and muted audio. Some critics still argue wether The Whom even had an intended audience.

By: jonmc

jonmc — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 08:13:29 -0800

Some critics still argue wether The Whom even had an intended audience. They're intended audience was a subculture known as You People.

By: slimepuppy

slimepuppy — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 08:17:46 -0800

I thought it was interesting (if a bit light on detail). Been wanting something like this for a while now. Especially since I watched One Day in September and Munich back to back recently. A clusterfuck of a (current) situation, from any point of view.

By: ZenMasterThis

ZenMasterThis — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 08:18:25 -0800

I thought The Whom were a pretty good band. I saw the Whom at Rich Stadium in '83. David Johanson and The Clash opened. It was awesome.

By: Goofyy

Goofyy — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 08:20:24 -0800

Interesting that Palestine is only on one side of the chart, so they don't have to explain how the Palestinians are regarded. I think the US should deduct damages to Beirut from Israel's allowance. Maybe if Israel had to pay the price for its aggression (like Germany), maybe they'd be less inclined to such escalatory retaliation.

By: slimepuppy

slimepuppy — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 08:31:13 -0800

Ah, but Goofyy, Israel is fighting terrorism!

By: psmealey

psmealey — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 08:37:13 -0800

Yesterday's Week In Review Section of the NY Times had a somewhat higher level view of all this done in graphical format, but this has some pretty good detail in it.

By: Goofyy

Goofyy — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 08:50:53 -0800

Who has better need to fight terrorism, than Israel? Fine! Since when do bridges walk across the border to blow up buses? The definition of insanity is doing the same thing, over and over, expecting a different outcome.

By: SisterHavana

SisterHavana — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 08:51:29 -0800

Oh, the Protestants hate the Catholics And the Catholics hate the Protestants And the Hindus hate the Moslems And everybody hates the Jews

By: jonmc

jonmc — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 08:53:44 -0800

He says, i aint a racist but aristitle onassis is one greek we dont need And them niggers, jews and sigma nus, all they ever do is breed. And wops n micks n slopes n spics n spooks are on my list And theres one little hebe from the heart of texas is there anyone I missed ?

By: slimepuppy

slimepuppy — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 09:11:58 -0800

Is this the bit where I link to Monty Python's 'Never Be Rude to an Arab'?

By: nickyskye

nickyskye — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 09:18:37 -0800

Meatbomb, Excellent, brutally simple visual to make some sense of the many layered, multi-faceted complicatedness there. Thank you.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 09:19:16 -0800

I was always partial to early 60s rockers The What, who scored a minor hit with "Ride on That Magic Vehicle." You might also remember them for such classics as "Talking About Some Generation," "I Can See For An Undetermined Distance" and their concept album "Quadrothingya." They had a very generalized audience.

By: NationalKato

NationalKato — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 09:25:46 -0800

So Israel pretty much hates everyone?

By: slatternus

slatternus — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 09:29:24 -0800

And this chart just covers nation states - not factoring in trans-national sectarian hatreds. Those are always the really juicy ones. I've got an idea: let's increase our involvement in the region!

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 09:30:00 -0800

And yet they call me antisemetic when I say they're worse than nazis and criticize them for not accepting Jesus and mutilating heir baby boys weiners! Who is the real hater, I ask? (Goes to work on his antizionist blog.)

By: skallas

skallas — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 09:34:59 -0800

Since when do bridges walk across the border to blow up buses? Right. Anything in the history of warfare that isnt a sole bullet straight to Hitler's heart is a war crime!

By: gottabefunky

gottabefunky — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 10:10:13 -0800

Combined with this, I can almost make sense of this mess. Still can't keep the Sunni/Shiite thing clear in my head - any suggestions?

By: Unregistered User

Unregistered User — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 10:19:02 -0800

any suggestions? 'The New Crusades: Constructing the Muslim Enemy' Emran Qureshi & Michael A. Sells (Eds)

By: mrbula

mrbula — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 10:19:49 -0800

An excellent (and large) graphic from this past weekend's New York Times on this very subject: Strife and Power in the New Middle East. More here: For the U.S., a Newfangled Compass.

By: gottabefunky

gottabefunky — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 10:20:14 -0800

(I understand the distinction - I meant some easy way to remember it, which group is Sunni, which is Shiite, etc)

By: mrbula

mrbula — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 10:20:34 -0800

(Crap, missed gottabefunky's post.)

By: JWright

JWright — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 10:52:40 -0800

That was a fine little chart. Good info. It should have been just as deep as it was wide, though. And it should have had Jordan.

By: persona non grata

persona non grata — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 11:07:53 -0800

The Slate graphic: A cute cartoony chart for those in a hurry to comprehend and have three minutes to digest the current situation as they inhale their morning coffee and donut. "It's complicated" indeed. Thanks, mrbula, for the NYT article/graphic, which at least attempts to grant a little clarity and real understanding.

By: Termite

Termite — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 11:37:28 -0800

... and let's not forget this classic chart about what the Europeans think about each other.

By: ninjew

ninjew — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 11:37:50 -0800

Aww nobody likes Israel. Maybe they should try joining some extracurricular activities to make some new friends. Then they'll be popular!

By: cillit bang

cillit bang — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 11:45:45 -0800

"By Christopher Beam and Noam Rudnick" Christopher Beam is a Slate intern. Noam Rudnick is a Slate intern.

By: delmoi

delmoi — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 11:58:41 -0800

I'm suprised no one's posted this great NYT graphic yet. Shows similar information in a much clearer manner.

By: hoverboards don't work on water

hoverboards don't work on water — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 12:03:35 -0800

They left me out. I hate them all.

By: dhartung

dhartung — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 12:09:59 -0800

I meant some easy way to remember it, which group is Sunni, which is Shiite Rule of thumb: Everybody's Sunni. Well, everybody, except for: * Iran, which is Shi'ite * Syria, which is a Sunni population run by a Shi'ite elite * Iraq, which is mostly Sunni (including the Kurds) but Shi'ites dominate the government and army now and * Lebanon, which is Sunni and Christian, except for the South, which is Shi'ite and thinks of Hezbollah as its state. Everybody else, including HAMAS, Fatah, al-Aqsa Brigades (the three main Palestinian groups) are Sunni. Al Qaeda is mostly Sunni but pan-Muslim in its politics. But basically it's a short list of exceptions to the rule of thumb. Shi'ites are a minority -- often very small -- in every other Muslim country. Alawis and Druze (both present in Lebanon) are technically Shi'a but considered apostates by many. * The chart is pretty simplistic, though. Lebanese don't like Israel, but Israel has long supported groups within Lebanon like the Maronite Christians as a counterweight to the influence of the PLO and then Hezbollah. They also have a peace treaty with Egypt and fairly good relations with Jordan. Really, you should be able to make a chart this complicated just about Lebanon, although most of the Civil War tensions had dissipated, especially after the Hariri assassination. Israel is arguably trying to exploit those sectarian differences.

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 12:56:42 -0800

Syria, which is a Sunni population run by a Shi'ite elite Um. The Ba'athists are "Shi'ite Elite?"

By: pracowity

pracowity — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 13:16:25 -0800

Still can't keep the Sunni/Shiite thing clear in my head - any suggestions? Do you mean you can't remember which one is in power where? If that's it, here's my simplistic method. Sunni = sunny/sun = ruler of the day = majority in the world and in most Muslim countries. It's the majority denomination in almost every Muslim country, including sunniest Africa. Distribution of Islam, Sunni (green) and Shi'a (blue). Shiite = shite/shitty/shit = majority in Iraq and Iran and Lebanon, where things are so shitty of late. It's pretty much a Persian Gulf phenomenon. (I don't really want to associate Shiites with shit, of course, but it's the most obvious mnemonic. Maybe Shi'a = shah = Iran is a better alternative?)

By: i_cola

i_cola — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 13:53:04 -0800

No Jordan, Kuwait, Yemen, UAE, Turkey, Kurds, etc. in the motherfuckin' house?

By: dhartung

dhartung — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 13:53:44 -0800

Um. The Ba'athists are "Shi'ite Elite?" Assad is Alawi. Even if the Ba'athists are nominally secular and nationalist, and even if Islamists have suffered persecution under both Assads (while Islamists abroad such as Hezbollah and HAMAS have received support), Assad Senior protected his regime with members of his Alawi clan. His son has opened more positions to Sunnis and mainline Shi'a. I believe the Sunni Kurds are still pretty much out of the loop, though. It's the Assad regime. The personal power of Assad Sr.'s allies is what ensured that an opthalmologist succeeded the Lion of Damascus.

By: skallas

skallas — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 14:07:18 -0800

Jesus hates them all.

By: Stauf

Stauf — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 14:09:46 -0800

I'm suprised no one's posted this great NYT graphic yet. Shows similar information in a much clearer manner. posted by delmoi at 11:58 AM PST on July 24 [+fave] [!] Huh? Both gottabefunky and mrbula posted that exact thing above.

By: rob511

rob511 — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 14:39:39 -0800

Myspace 2.0 = Yourfatma.com* *Apologies to our own 10827.

By: phearlez

phearlez — Mon, 24 Jul 2006 17:09:40 -0800

Jeez, I guessed "7" not "23" when wondering how long into the thread till someone mentioned "National Brotherhood Week." Guess the world's not as big a Lehrer fan as I am...

By: ninthart

ninthart — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 03:25:37 -0800

Jesus hates them all. Another useful comment from skallas. Boy, you must crack yourself up, eh?

By: malocchio

malocchio — Tue, 25 Jul 2006 10:05:53 -0800

Iraq, which is mostly Sunni... Well, not according to my memory or wikipedia's:

A majority of Iraqis are Arabic-speaking Shias, forming about 55% of the total population. The second largest, is the Kurdisth population with about 21% of the total. Kurds are followers of both Sunni (a majority) and Shia sects (a minority) setc of Islam. There are also several Kurdish groups who practice pre-Islamic native Kurdish religions, such as Yezidism and Yarisanism (the Kaka'is and the Shabak). The third ethnic group are the Arabic-speaking Sunnis who form about 18.5% of the total.