Comments on: Tour winner disgraced?

Tour winner disgraced?

beagle — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 07:34:56 -0800

Landis tests positive for doping.

By: beagle

beagle — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 07:37:39 -0800

More here.

By: mischief

mischief — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 07:37:52 -0800

Is this bad?

By: thirteenkiller

thirteenkiller — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 07:39:40 -0800

By: mathowie

mathowie — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 07:43:28 -0800

well, there is a second test still to come.

By: dead_

dead_ — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 07:45:14 -0800

Nice

By: drezdn

drezdn — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 07:46:33 -0800

Couldn't he just have a lot of testosterone?

By: StrasbourgSecaucus

StrasbourgSecaucus — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 07:47:31 -0800

Is it really that hard to ride a bike?

By: Dantien

Dantien — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 07:49:26 -0800

*raises arms* Nooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!! *camera pulls back skyward*

By: Dantien

Dantien — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 07:50:59 -0800

Strasbourg, I've posted this before but here is how hard it is to ride a bike in the Tour de France: "The Tour de France’s status as the world’s most physiologically demanding event is largely unquestioned. The riders cover 2,272 miles (3656 km) at an average speed of 25 miles per hour (40 km/h), roughly the equivalent of running a marathon almost every day for almost three weeks. In the Pyrenees and the Alps, they climb a vertical distance equal to three Mount Everests. They take in up to 10,000 calories per day, the equivalent of 17 Big Macs, elevating their metabolic rates to a level that, according to a Dutch study, is exceeded by only four species on earth."

By: Skorgu

Skorgu — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 07:53:15 -0800

Well shit.

By: ibmcginty

ibmcginty — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 07:54:08 -0800

This is very sad. I hope it's not true.

By: NotMyselfRightNow

NotMyselfRightNow — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 07:55:09 -0800

This two-sentence news article doesn't really say that much. The following text, from the NY Times profile of Landis a couple weeks back, should be kept in mind: On my second day with Landis, we traveled with Kay to Chao’s San Diego office for Landis’s pretour cortisone shot in his hip. (Cortisone, a non-performance-enhancing hormone with a variety of anti-inflammatory and other beneficial effects, is a banned substance. Landis’s condition, however, which his doctors have selectively described as “bursitis,” has allowed his team to obtain a therapeutic use exemption from the Union Cycliste Internationale, cycling’s governing body.)

By: mrbill

mrbill — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 07:57:03 -0800

I say he just has MASSIVE BALLS.

By: leftcoastbob

leftcoastbob — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 07:59:55 -0800

Oh, for heaven's sake--who cares?????

By: deadfather

deadfather — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:00:23 -0800

Canseco had a point.

By: karmaville

karmaville — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:00:26 -0800

Damn French officials, just can't let another American win huh? Seriously, though, Skorgu said it best. Here's hoping for a negative B sample.

By: fixedgear

fixedgear — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:00:36 -0800

I care deeply, Bob. We still have to wait for the B sample, but it doesn't look good. Miraculous recovery? Testosterone is known to aid in recovery. It seems inconceivable for him to think he wouldn't get tested/caught (stage winners always get tested). They might have just miscalculated the dose. Color me disappointed. Can you say 'shunning?'

By: Jeff_Larson

Jeff_Larson — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:00:50 -0800

FUD. I remember the same rumors flying after Lance started winning tours. The UCI has waged a long (~10 yr) political campaign against winners of the tour.

By: Falconetti

Falconetti — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:01:09 -0800

This is terrible, I hope it is not true.

By: rand

rand — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:02:41 -0800

"...tested positive for the male sex hormone testosterone." Imagine that, a male testing positive for testosterone. Maybe the elevated levels were from that magic beer that he and his coach shared after stage 16? On a less snarky level, this isn't good. He had an incredible comeback on stage 17 after being cracked on stage 16, rode with a rotting hip, and now this. The BBC article was interesting, as it started that Landis had withdrawn from two European races this week. My impression was that he was pretty much done riding for now, as he was getting hip replacement surgery in a few weeks.

By: Faint of Butt

Faint of Butt — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:03:27 -0800

I am appalled by these allegations. There is a long history of substance use by film directors. Why this sudden attention on the very talented Landis?

By: deadfather

deadfather — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:03:32 -0800

They might have just miscalculated the dose. Don't worry, they'll get it right next time. Remember when baseball mitts were barely bigger than your hand? Sport evolves!

By: grubi

grubi — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:06:56 -0800

I wonder if Reitman's next.

By: jimmythefish

jimmythefish — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:10:59 -0800

NotMyselfRightNow, Cortisone isn't going to account for the increased testosterone:epitestosterone ratio, which is what they test for. It's a corticosteroid, which is quite different from an anabolic steroid which would cause an increase in testosterone levels. Anabolic steroids aren't the stuff of choice for endurance athletes. HGH (human growth hormone) and straight-up testosterone are the more likely choices, especially for a guy who needs to make up 9 minutes in one stage. In any case, yeah, bad for cycling. I'm a competitive distance runner and over the years have come to the jaded conclusion that these tests are more political in nature...ie they don't positive-test their high-profile stars (Armstrong, for example) as long as they're playing the game the federations want them to play. It's no wonder that the shit hit the proverbial fan, doping-wise, the year after Armstrong retired. Armstrong was the best thing to happen to cycling, well, ever.

By: xmutex

xmutex — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:16:37 -0800

Jose Canseco was right!!!!!!!!

By: xmutex

xmutex — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:17:19 -0800

oh crap deadfather beat me to it

By: bluesky43

bluesky43 — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:17:52 -0800

There were rumours about this when he failed to show for two scheduled events after the Tour. I hope it isn't true.

By: inigo2

inigo2 — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:21:53 -0800

What I don't get is WHY?? I understand the desire/need to do well, make up for a bad stage. But -- assuming this is all true -- did he really think he'd get away with it? (I have the same question about people getting caught with steroids in other sports, such as baseball and track & field. Do they just get careless? What is it?)

By: mogabog

mogabog — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:23:39 -0800

It's NOT DOPING! Nothing has been proven yet - the headline is wrong. One test says he had inceased levels, that does not equal definate doping. -A

By: jaimev

jaimev — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:24:25 -0800

Has there been any tour rider, or athlete for that matter, that has ever tested positive for a performance enhancing drug or blood doping and said "my bad, you caught me"? Maybe if his "B" sample tests positive, Landis will be one of those people who'll do a mea culpa.

By: clevershark

clevershark — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:29:20 -0800

By: fenriq

fenriq — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:29:52 -0800

Damn, his own team admitted it was him that tested positive? Wow, they really don't support him at all, not during the race and not after either. I hope this is just sour grapes from the French again and Landis can publicly tell them to suck his balls. But its not looking good.

By: PinkStainlessTail

PinkStainlessTail — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:33:06 -0800

Maybe if his "B" sample tests positive, Landis will be one of those people who'll do a mea culpa. If this guy has endorsement deals and the like, he won't be saying anything that hasn't cleared a brazilian lawyers first. "Yeah, I did it," is unlikely to make the cut.

By: anonetal

anonetal — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:33:38 -0800

That's a rather strange turn of events. Riders who test positive usually do so for substances that increase the amount of oxygen in the blood (like EPO), not muscle-building hormones like testosterone. I was wondering the same thing. From what I can find on the web, there don't seem any short-term benefits from testosterone. Does anybody know otherwise ?

By: dseaton

dseaton — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:35:00 -0800

This is ridiculous. There's no B sample confirmation. There's been no opportunity to scrutinize the data, do counter analysis, or make any kind of appeal. If you read the Statement from Phonak, it basically says that nobody seems to know what's happening and it would be unethical to race until this is sorted out. Basically explaining why Landis pulled out of some of the crits he was scheduled for. Let's not make more of this than there is right now.

By: Skorgu

Skorgu — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:39:34 -0800

dseaton nearly answered what I was going to ask before I asked it, but what are the criteria that a governing body uses to separate normal human variances in hormone levels (esp in hugely demanding sports like the Tour) from definite doping?

By: Falconetti

Falconetti — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:48:18 -0800

dseaton nearly answered what I was going to ask before I asked it, but what are the criteria that a governing body uses to separate normal human variances in hormone levels (esp in hugely demanding sports like the Tour) from definite doping? First they determine your nationality. If you test positive for being an American, they increase the level of scrutiny.

By: ORthey

ORthey — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:55:11 -0800

leftcoastbob - what is wrong with you? If you don't care, go away!

By: cell divide

cell divide — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:55:36 -0800

First they determine your nationality. If you test positive for being an American, they increase the level of scrutiny. Right, like all those riders thrown off before the tour even started, were they all American? Get a grip, this has nothing to do with nationality-- that is reserved for the Press.

By: muckster

muckster — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:55:51 -0800

See you next Wednesday!

By: solid-one-love

solid-one-love — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:56:35 -0800

I guess he forgot that week to use the same masking agents as everyone else.

By: clevershark

clevershark — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:57:42 -0800

So is MeFi in a competition with Fark for knee-jerk French bashing now?

By: SeizeTheDay

SeizeTheDay — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:00:29 -0800

With all the (so-far) baseless French accusations against Armstrong, can you blame people for blaming the French for this witchhunt? You cry wolf long enough and people will stop believing you.

By: jaimev

jaimev — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:04:30 -0800

I guess he forgot that week to use the same masking agents as everyone else. Or maybe he was going to rely on his beer defense.... "In cases where doping with testosterone is suspected, the possibility should be considered that at least part of an observed increased testosterone/epitestosterone ratio in urine is ascribable to previous ingestion of ethanol." :-)

By: zouhair

zouhair — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:05:55 -0800

Seriousely I am no US fan but this Landis was so good to watch it will be a great shame if the second test positive too :(

By: clevershark

clevershark — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:08:06 -0800

Did any of you actually fucking bother to check whether the team making the allegations (Phonak) is actually French or not? Because it's not. It's Swiss. FYI that's a different country from France. So you can keep whining about how the evil Frenchies are trying to victimize the poor defenceless American all you want. You're just making yourselves look just a bit dumber every time.

By: Mitheral

Mitheral — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:08:21 -0800

inigo2 writes "did he really think he'd get away with it? (I have the same question about people getting caught with steroids in other sports, such as baseball and track & field. Do they just get careless? What is it?)" Well all the guys you don't hear about (and some you do say the home run hitter guy) are getting away with it.

By: furtive

furtive — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:08:45 -0800

Dick Pound is having an epynonymous wank at this very instant.

By: turducken

turducken — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:10:14 -0800

According to the NYT article, Landis isn't allowed to race pending the results of the B test -- something about a "Pro Tour Ethical Code." So the no-shows aren't an admission of guilt, they're a strict adherence to the rules (a very Mennonite thing to do). Communication could be better, tho. Also -- since most performance-enhancing steroids are synthetic, they actually decrease your natural testosterone production. The only one I know of that increases natural testosterone in the body is old-skool Androstenedione -- a.k.a. Mark McGwire's "andro."

By: greasy_skillet

greasy_skillet — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:12:21 -0800

If this comes across as incredibly stupid, I apologize. I don't follow sports, so I don't know anything about the debate surrounding performance enhancing drugs. But, why is it against the rules for athletes to use them? It can't be that they would give an unfair advantage, because if they were legal, each athelete would presumably have access to the same drugs. I can understand if it has to do with health concerns, but it seems weak to me because professional atheletes seem to be at risk for health problems anyway because of the strain on their bodies. These guys/girls are freaks of nature anyway (see here), wouldn't it be more entertaining if they were even more so?

By: Mitheral

Mitheral — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:14:12 -0800

clevershark writes "So you can keep whining about how the evil Frenchies are trying to victimize the poor defenceless American all you want. " To paraphrase Jon Stewart: Because of the unfair additional scrutiny he experienced because of his nationality, my country's poster boy was accused with doing drugs ... that he tested positive for!

By: nadawi

nadawi — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:15:41 -0800

Clevershark: It wasn't Phonak that made the allegations, they just admitted it was Landis. It's the UCI that tested/told his team about the results. Now, the UCI's headquarters are in Switzerland and it's an international agency, so the french bashing still doesn't make a lot of since (especially since the president of the UCI is Irish). Just thought I'd clear that up.

By: pezdacanuck

pezdacanuck — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:18:01 -0800

Actually, testosterone has many uses, not just for mass buildup, but for increased production of adrenaline as well. Higher levels of testosterone have been shown to elevate the emotions which in turn contributes to stress driven levels of adrenaline. It doesn't take too much of an increase either. Higher levels of testosterone also aid in burning fat reserves, though I can't see how that would help in this case. Either way, we wait for the B sample to be tested and go from there. I neither care nor disprove of the potential result. It is what it is. PS... I must concur with clevershark about the French bashing. Is it really necessary?

By: Mitheral

Mitheral — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:19:13 -0800

greasy_skillet writes "I can understand if it has to do with health concerns, but it seems weak to me because professional atheletes seem to be at risk for health problems anyway because of the strain on their bodies. These guys/girls are freaks of nature anyway (see here), wouldn't it be more entertaining if they were even more so?" I think it's more about the health concerns of the guys who don't make even the semi pro leagues. They want to keep the stigma of drug use = cheating to discourage teenagers from using this stuff. It's not just in human athletics where this is considered cheating either. Top caliber race horses for example are probably tested more often than humans.

By: killdevil

killdevil — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:24:12 -0800

greasy_skillet: to answer your question, allowing elite athletes to chemically enhance themselves would probably lead to a lot of deaths, both during and after competition. Many of the substances athletes have used over the past thirty years or so have notoriously serious health consequences over the long term, but for those in pursuit of first-place glory, those consequences aren't necessarily a disincentive. If performance enhancers were legal, not only would athletes themselves be choosing to sacrifice their health in order to gain an advantage, but they'd probably often be pressured by teams, coaches and trainers to do so, despite their own reservations about it. Aside from the health issues, of course, taking drugs to gain an advantage in stamina or strength that isn't intrinsic seems to me, anyway, to be a gross contravention of a central tenet of sport in general: that those with the best genetic endowment who work the hardest tend to win out in the end.

By: suckerpunch

suckerpunch — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:25:15 -0800

Here's one small thing to keep in mind as this goes on : due to the loss of his testicle, Lance Armstrong was allowed to take testosterone supplements during his post-cancer racing career. This has no bearing on Landis, of course, but it's interesting in light of the rest.

By: bluesky43

bluesky43 — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:27:25 -0800

I follow pro cycling pretty closely but I have never understood why the results of the A test are released in the absence of the results of the B test. Why don't they do these tests simultaneously? Or why don't they wait to release any information given an A positive until they do the B test? I suspect the answer has to do with some technical aspects of these tests (anybody?) but there is a lot on the line here. Even if the B is negative, this race will forever be tainted by the frenzy generated by the positive A test.

By: turducken

turducken — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:31:42 -0800

jaimev: "Ingestion of 110-160 g of ethanol...increased the ratio between testosterone and epitestosterone in urine." At 28.35 g per ounce, and 0.5 ounces of ethanol per 12-ounce beer, we're talking 7.7 - 11.3 beers! Maybe Phonak had a kegger after Stage 16?

By: dseaton

dseaton — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:37:01 -0800

greasy_skillet: to answer your question, allowing elite athletes to chemically enhance themselves would probably lead to a lot of deaths See Simpson, Tom

By: ijsbrand

ijsbrand — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:40:32 -0800

I follow pro cycling pretty closely but I have never understood why the results of the A test are released in the absence of the results of the B test. Why don't they do these tests simultaneously? The accused athlete has to demand a second test, it is as simple as that. He or she is accused of having done wrong, and the second sample is there for the counter expertise. And the main reason why the news broke today, was that after yesterday's rumours about a positive test in the Tour the media simply called all the national cycling unions to hear if it was one of their athletes. Then Phonack stepped in.

By: Mitheral

Mitheral — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:41:10 -0800

bluesky43 writes "I follow pro cycling pretty closely but I have never understood why the results of the A test are released in the absence of the results of the B test." Because the athlete is restricted from competition while waiting for the results of the second test. I imagine they don't do the tests simultaneously to: a) reduce costs b) cut down on the number of false positives (while letting some false negatives slip thru) c) allow different labs or workers to do the second test to increase the robustness of the process.

By: Ironmouth

Ironmouth — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:47:16 -0800

You never test both samples at the same time. If one is contaminated and gives a false positive, a second done at the same time will do so too. Someone else does the other sample. All samples are split for these reasons.

By: blucevalo

blucevalo — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:51:41 -0800

By: JMOZ

JMOZ — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:54:10 -0800

turducken: jaimev: "Ingestion of 110-160 g of ethanol...increased the ratio between testosterone and epitestosterone in urine." At 28.35 g per ounce, and 0.5 ounces of ethanol per 12-ounce beer, we're talking 7.7 - 11.3 beers! Not that the defense is terribly believable, but I just wanted to comment a bit on this math. First, the assumption of 0.5 oz/EtOH / 12 oz beer assumes fairly weak beer: (4.16% ABV). While this is typical in the US, it's not typical of the rest of the world, where it can be as much twice as high for some beers. Also, most of the world drinks half-Liters (or pints). Thus, if we assume pints of 8.32% ABV beer, we get 2.9 - 4.24 beers. It's possible (though IMHO rather unlikely) that after being counted out of the tour entirely by most people, Floyd might have tossed back a few pints.

By: baker dave

baker dave — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 09:56:23 -0800

dose this mean landis is a dope pedaler

By: cell divide

cell divide — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:03:50 -0800

Actually I do remember hearing that he drank a beer the day of the 17th stage (I think). Anyway... the cycling-doping thing is just such a turnoff to that sport. Seriously, so lame.

By: jmgorman

jmgorman — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:09:36 -0800

It's possible (though IMHO rather unlikely) that after being counted out of the tour entirely by most people, Floyd might have tossed back a few pints. I don't know if it is all that unlikely. His strategy in stage 17 was "Fuck them. I can do this. I'm still in this. I'm going to fucking sprint up three mountains." That sounds exactly like my thought process after a few pints. Of course, when I read this I felt kicked in the stomach. I really, really hope this is a false positive.

By: mullingitover

mullingitover — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:19:09 -0800

I'd love to give him the benefit of the doubt. However, there's something fishy about his racing record:

2006 - Phonak Hearing Systems * 1st overall – Tour de France o Yellow jersey, General Classification leader during Stages 12, 13, 16 and 20. o 1st, Stage 17 (Combativity award) o 3rd, Stage 19 (ITT) o 4th, Stage 15 o 3rd, Stage 11 o 2nd, Stage 7 (ITT) o 9th, Prologue (ITT) * 1st overall – Tour de Georgia o 1st, Stage 3 (ITT) – Tour de Georgia * 1st overall – Paris-Nice * 1st overall – Tour of California o 1st, Stage 3 (ITT) – Tour of California * 1st, Profronde van Stiphout (post-Tour criterium) 2005 - Phonak Hearing Systems * 3rd overall and Stage 3 win – Tour de Georgia * 9th overall – Tour de France * 11th overall – Dauphiné Libéré o 4th, Prologue and Stage 3 – Dauphiné Libéré o 5th, Stage 4 – Dauphiné Libéré 2004 - U.S. Postal Service * Overall – Volta ao Algarve o Stage 5 – Volta ao Algarve o 2nd, Stage 4 – Volta ao Algarve * Team time trial – Tour de France * Team time trial – Vuelta a España * 3rd, Stage 5 – Paris-Nice * 3rd, Stage 4 – Ronde Van Nederland * 4th, Stage 19 – Tour de France * 5th, Stage 17 – Tour de France o 8th, Stage 3 – Criterium International o 8th, Stage 3 – Dauphiné Libéré * 23rd overall – Tour de France 2003 - U.S. Postal Service * 77th overall – Tour de France 2002 - U.S. Postal Service * 2nd overall – Dauphiné Libéré * 3rd stage, Tirreno-Adriatico * 5th overall – Circuit de la Sarthe * 61st overall – Tour de France 2001 - Mercury Pro Cycling Team * Boulevard Road Race * 13th overall – Criterium International o 2nd, Stage 3 (ITT) 2000 - Mercury Pro Cycling Team * Overall – Tour du Poitou-Charentes * 4th overall – Tour de l'Avenir * 5th overall and 1 stage win – Tour de Langkawi * 6th – Prix des Bles d'Or (Mi-Août bretonne) * 8th – Prix du Lèon (Mi-Août bretonne) * 9th – Redlands Classic 1999 - Mercury Pro Cycling Team * 2nd overall and 1 stage win – Cascade Classic * 3rd overall – Tour de l'Avenir * 4th – Red Zinger Classic * 5th overall – GP Cycliste de Beauce * 7th – Fitchburg-Longsjo Classic

How did he go from not placing first in any events in previous years to winning every single race (overall) this year?

By: jennaratrix

jennaratrix — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:20:23 -0800

If this guy has endorsement deals and the like, he won't be saying anything that hasn't cleared a brazilian lawyers first. "Yeah, I did it," is unlikely to make the cut. Why not American lawyers? French, even? Sorry, that just stuck out. As to the actual topic - I'll wait to see the second test and any possible explanations for testing positive before passing judgment, but I'll say now that it'd really be too bad.

By: AJaffe

AJaffe — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:22:56 -0800

Drugs don't go gently into that not-so-good Mennonite

By: JMOZ

JMOZ — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:24:03 -0800

mullingitover: How did he go from not placing first in any events in previous years to winning every single race (overall) this year? Well, before 2005, he wasn't generally racing for himself. (He was a domestique in previous editions of the TdF when he rode for US Postal. I'm not sure about other races). 2005 was his first year with a new team. That usually means readjustment, especially when Phonak didn't immediately embrace Landis as its leader. Once you start getting your act together as a team, your chances for improved results increase. Landis' improvements this year aren't all that terribly far outside the norm for someone with his career path.

By: OmieWise

OmieWise — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:24:58 -0800

Man, that's a blow. I hope the B test comes out clear.

By: JMOZ

JMOZ — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:28:53 -0800

jmgorman: I don't know if it is all that unlikely. His strategy in stage 17 was "Fuck them. I can do this. I'm still in this. I'm going to fucking sprint up three mountains." That sounds exactly like my thought process after a few pints. Well, yeah, I guess that's how I think I'd think, too. But, after 3-4 pints of strong beer after almost 3 weeks of racing, I'm pretty sure my performance the next day would not be the ride-of-my-life. Hell, I feel like shit the next day after not-much-more than that now, and I'm still a bit younger than Landis.

By: OmieWise

OmieWise — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:29:39 -0800

mullingitover writes "How did he go from not placing first in any events in previous years to winning every single race (overall) this year?" The change is in the entire structure of the sport, who else is racing, which races are chosen, what other teams look like, and not just in Landis' record. Certainly any results from teams on which he was not the leader (anything before Phonak) need to be taken off your list. Last year was his first year with Phonak, the peloton looked a lot different, and he was a new team leader. While I don't know if he's used drugs, I do know that his race results are not inconsistent with racing clean, if you understand how bike racing works.

By: scheptech

scheptech — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:35:55 -0800

I'm lost on this testing thing - so if the B test comes back negative there must be a C test to break the tie? Or is there no tampering method that could lead to a false negative? How did he go from not placing first in any events in previous years to winning every single race (overall) this year? His TdF trajectory since '02: 66, 77, 23, 9, 1. I don't know this sport assuming the big event was his main goal, maybe this is a reasonable pattern? Normal enough?

By: booksandlibretti

booksandlibretti — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:38:15 -0800

Why not American lawyers? French, even? It's a joke.

By: JMOZ

JMOZ — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:40:45 -0800

scheptech: the big jump from 23 to 9 is when he started riding for himself. (Team Phonak vs. U.S. Postal). From 9 to 1 isn't really a surprise in a tour where the two top favorites were eliminated from day 1 and several other top contenders (Valverde, for example) were eliminated pretty early on in one way or another. As for the C test, I'm not sure there is one, but my (inexpert) guess is that you're given the benefit of the doubt if your second test comes back negative. Generally, I would think the B test is probably done very carefully and with quite a bit of scrutiny to prevent tampering.

By: jennaratrix

jennaratrix — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:42:18 -0800

booksandlibretti: Thanks, I missed that one.

By: true

true — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:42:22 -0800

from 02-04 he was a support rider - his main goal was not to win the Tour but to assist Armstrong. He was good enough at that that in 05 and 06 he was a team lead. Since at least 4-5 of the top 10 from 05 were not riding this year moving from 9 to 1 wouldn't be that suprising.

By: MegoSteve

MegoSteve — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:46:47 -0800

This is terrible, but I bet Jay Leno is happy to have him scheduled to appear on the Tonight Show tomorrow night.

By: dvdgee

dvdgee — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:47:42 -0800

JMOZ, I would beg to differ on your assessment of common alcohol levels in beer. Most common US beers are 5.0% by volume (Budweiser, Coors, Michelob, etc), and specialty brews are often higher. Most common beers elsewhere are around 5.0% too (Stella 5.2%, Harp 5.0%, Hoegarden 5.0%, Boddingtons 4.8%, Castle Lager 5.0%, Heineken 5.2%, Newcastle Brown 4.5%, Guinness 4.1%, Fosters 4.6%, Asahi 5%). Mexican beers tend to be slightly weaker, but still in the 4.5%-5.0% range. This is a pretty common myth, probably because the mass-produced US beers have a dirty "watered-down" taste, but that's really not got much to do with alcohol content. "Lite" beers are generally weaker, and there's arguably more consumption of light beer in the US (yuk), but the weakest light beer I could find was Amstel, at 3.5%, and probably the most common light beer in Europe.

By: [expletive deleted]

[expletive deleted] — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:53:03 -0800

Mullingitover, it's a quaint notion, but I think it's possible that Landis won because he simply wanted it more. He rode like his life depended on it this year because he knows he may never race competitively again. He rode this Tour knowing that no one has ever recovered from a hip replacement and continued to race at his level. That said, he rode with a necrotic right hip. He can barely walk up stairs. I don't care if he injected radioactive spider venom in order to win, it was still an amazing accomplishment, and it was great to watch. Personally, I don't really care about doping. I don't buy the argument that it is unfair. When they test for blood doping, some atheletes test positive because they have naturally high levels of hemoglobin. They have to establish consistent levels over an extended period of time to be exonerated. So basically, you can't take a drug, or inject your own RBCs to raise your hemoglobin concentration to what your opponent has naturally because that would be unfair. What the fuck is that? I thought sports was about who wanted it more, not what asshole won the genetic lottery. Juice up, as far as I'm concerned. The atheletes should be tested still, and if someone is putting their health in serious risk as a result of doping, then suspend them for health reasons, sure. Publish the results of drug tests, so everyone can see who does what. With the slew of new therapies in the development pipeline, I don't think it will even matter in a few years anyways. When someone can just inject themselves with a virus that will alter their genes enough to give them an edge, we'll consider all this hysteria over doping cute.

By: John

John — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 11:05:08 -0800

Interesting article: German doctor Kurt Moosburger, who has looked after Jörg Jaksche (among others) for the past two years, has told dpa that he believes that performance enhancing drugs are "indispensable" for high level cycling. In a frank interview, Moosburger pointed to the average speeds of modern professional races, especially hard tours. "The average in last year's Tour was 41 kilometres per hour - that is incredible. You can do a hard Alpine stage without doping. But after that, the muscles are exhausted. You need - depending on your training conditions - up to three days in order to regenerate." To help recover, testosterone and human growth hormone can be used. "Both are made by the body and are therefore natural substances," he said. "They help to build muscle as well as in muscle recovery." Dr Moosburger explained how it was done. "You put a standard testosterone patch that is used for male hormone replacement therapy on your scrotum and leave it there for about six hours. The small dose is not sufficient to produce a positive urine result in the doping test, but the body actually recovers faster." Dr Moosburger went onto explain that, "The supply of oxygen to the blood decides what the body is capable of in terms of fat- and carbohydrate metabolism. This capacity is mostly genetically determined.The muscles of athletes who are able to reach the top level of sport can carry about 60 millilitres per kilo per minute in an untrained condition. That of an average person is only about 40 millilitres per kilo. In order to be able to keep up with the world's best, it must be 85 to 90 millilitres. EPO helps oxygen carrying capacity, and has long been the performance enhancing drug of choice in endurance sports. "It enables you to hold the haematocrit of the blood in the upper level of what's allowed for the whole season. Before the EPO test, for example, athletes injected 4000 units three times per week. Now they inject a small dose almost daily." Finally, in the opinion of Dr Moosburger, blood doping via transfusion would give an athlete a five percent boost for two to three weeks. "And therefore can last for a grand tour." Source: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/jul06/jul07news3

By: dseaton

dseaton — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 11:06:21 -0800

Mullingitover: Just to clarify this point more, riders who aren't team leaders -- domestiques (or helpers) -- sacrifice themselves by putting in hard efforts so the team leader can take it easier and save his energy. Landis used to blow himself out leading Armstrong through the mountains. Landis would put in a hard effort while Armstrong drafted him, eventually Landis would crack and lose tons of time, while Armstrong would push hard up the final climb and win. Last year he became leader of Phonak, so other people started working for him. Hence the upturn in results. That said, Phonak's record with doping isn't exactly stellar, so who knows what else was going on.

By: mullingitover

mullingitover — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 11:12:15 -0800

[expletive deleted] writes "With the slew of new therapies in the development pipeline, I don't think it will even matter in a few years anyways. When someone can just inject themselves with a virus that will alter their genes enough to give them an edge, we'll consider all this hysteria over doping cute." This is probably true. Meanwhile, I'm a cynic who believes that there are two types of pro cyclists: those who get caught doping, and those who don't get caught. So I'm not trying to vilify Landis if he was indeed doing it, I'm just pointing out the glaring difference between previous years results and this year.

By: mullingitover

mullingitover — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 11:17:00 -0800

Yes, I know all about domestiques. Meanwhile I'm waiting to hear what my favorite cycling blogger, The Fat Cyclist, will have to say about this fiasco.

By: Shfishp

Shfishp — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 11:23:09 -0800

I, for one, believe that Mr. Landis is totally innocent. Yours truly, Ben Johnson.

By: misanthropicsarah

misanthropicsarah — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 11:27:01 -0800

This is the response I posted on my blog when I heard the news earlier today. --- it’s gonna piss me off if floyd landis is found guilty of doping. i’ve watched the tour for year (not in recent years, but i’ve followed it) and it’s THE sport in my mind. it’s long, it’s grueling, it requires years of training, and it’s more than carring a ball back and forth, or kicking it back and forth. people who compete and finish the race amaze me. so what if you’re last, you still did it. and to win the race is fucking amazing. i was all a-twitter when lance won it for the sixth and seventh time. and he did it without doping. so did lemond and indurain and merckx. so i just hope the landis did it clean too, because otherwise he’s sullied the tour. yes, he’ll get stripped of the title, but the guy who really won then won’t get all the fanfare that he rightly deserves. and, you know how america and the government got all riled up over that baseball player who was doing steroids? do you think they’ll care about this? no, because it’s a foreign race and it’s “just” biking.

By: Danf

Danf — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 11:28:58 -0800

Reminds me of (since it happened where I live) the case of Mary Slaney who had a urine test which showed a disproportionate testosterone to epitestosterone ratio. She retired, (loudly and at length) maintaining her innocence, the US track body seemed to agree with her, but the international track body stayed by its original finding. I imagine that you would still find passionate arguments on both sides.

By: matteo

matteo — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 11:45:21 -0800

Couldn't he just have a lot of testosterone? then he has a future in porn to our OMFG NO! friends: just wait until they get Armstrong, then the proverbial shit will hit the proverbial fan as I said in the past here, they might as well stop testing, create a huge lab for pro sports, cycling as zona franca. then see what happens. legalize it. this is worse than legal doping, and more pathetic. legalize it

By: Slothrup

Slothrup — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 11:48:03 -0800

My brother claims that "everyone does it"; that it's impossible to compete on that level without *some* kind of chemical assistance. And while he's no stranger to talking out of his ass, he did race semipro for a few years and one of his good friends has been in the Tour several times.

By: Falconetti

Falconetti — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 11:53:02 -0800

So you can keep whining about how the evil Frenchies are trying to victimize the poor defenceless American all you want. You're just making yourselves look just a bit dumber every time. Calm down, it was a throwaway joke based on the accusations that the French were targeting Armstrong unfairly the last couple Tour de France's. And if you are responding to me specifically, please point to one other time I ever made a French joke. You must be one of those hot-blooded Italians.

By: dseaton

dseaton — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 12:06:35 -0800

i was all a-twitter when lance won it for the sixth and seventh time. and he did it without doping. so did lemond and indurain and merckx. This is a joke, right? Merckx tested positive at the 1969 Giro, Armstrong almost certainly was taking EPO in 1999, and Lemond and Indurain both raced at a time when doping controls were, at best, minimal. If Landis doped, then it sucks. But it's not like all the great riders of the past were perfect and clean and now everybody has shat upon the holy Tour de France. It's a bike race. There are lots of bike races. And many people win said races with the help of banned substances. It's been going on forever, and, I promise, it's going to continue forever.

By: mullacc

mullacc — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 12:11:10 -0800

I say we just let 'em use motorcycles.

By: JackFlash

JackFlash — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 12:17:08 -0800

... due to the loss of his testicle, Lance Armstrong was allowed to take testosterone supplements during his post-cancer racing career. False. From Lance himself.

By: Mitheral

Mitheral — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 12:17:37 -0800

JMOZ writes "From 9 to 1 isn't really a surprise in a tour where the two top favorites were eliminated from day 1 and several other top contenders (Valverde, for example) were eliminated pretty early on in one way or another." If nothing else he gains one spot from Lance being out this year.

By: loquacious

loquacious — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 12:25:47 -0800

jimmythefish wrote: Armstrong was the best thing to happen to cycling, well, ever. Meh. Personally, I can think of a lot of things that were better for cycling. Index shifting. Elastomeric gel seats. Self-sealing tubes. Ultrastiff custom frames. I could go on. greasy_skillet wrote: If this comes across as incredibly stupid, I apologize. I don't follow sports, so I don't know anything about the debate surrounding performance enhancing drugs. But, why is it against the rules for athletes to use them? It can't be that they would give an unfair advantage, because if they were legal, each athelete would presumably have access to the same drugs. Besides the health issue listed above, it all turns the sport (any sport) into even more of a money or arms race. But it looks like it is becoming more and more common in all kinds of sports, and we should probably get used to it and begin outlining safe ways to implement it. Just as there are safety guidelines for equipment, perhaps we need the same for chemical/hormone performance enhancement. But it's just such a weirdly nebulous grey area. What's a "performance enhancing" drug? Would hits of pure oxygen count? What about electrolyte drinks? High-glucose energy gels?

By: jimmythefish

jimmythefish — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 12:53:52 -0800

loquacious, Well, um...obviously, I'm talking about the marketing of the sport of cycling and exposing the Tour to Americans rather than, well, just any aspect of cycling.

By: sic

sic — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:09:37 -0800

jimmythefish wrote: Armstrong was the best thing to happen to cycling, well, ever. Maybe the best thing for getting "bandwagon" Americans interested in cycling, but for the sport itself, not so much. By the way Armstrong was doping, he just never got caught; how anybody can doubt this is always shocking to me. Try doing just one stage of the Tour de France, not even a mountain stage, see how you feel the next day. Try doing that almost every day for a month. These guys are all doping. Believe it.

By: fixedgear

fixedgear — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:19:11 -0800

Former pro Marcel Wüst, himself a stage winner in the Tour de France, told Cyclingnews: "Shit happens..."

By: Mitheral

Mitheral — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:19:17 -0800

sic writes "Try doing just one stage of the Tour de France, not even a mountain stage, see how you feel the next day. Try doing that almost every day for a month. These guys are all doping. " Not to disagree but I wonder if Terry Fox was using any performance enhancers.

By: MegoSteve

MegoSteve — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:20:59 -0800

Landis talks to mother, tells her "no way" he failed test.

By: bardic

bardic — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:24:01 -0800

All of these guys are doping, it's just a question of which teams have the money, doctors, and political clout to not get caught. So what matteo said. This whole thing is a farce. (And I don't give a fuck about baseball any longer either, because the kabuki dance of on dope/not on dope is so hypocritical and annoying. These guys are paid athletes, and if they want to die at 40 with breasts and shrivelled testacles, fine. Because many of them are going to anyways. And they're adults with the right to make this choice to be a godlike physical specimen until their metabolism catches up with them.)

By: Shfishp

Shfishp — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:29:50 -0800

"Try doing just one stage of the Tour de France, not even a mountain stage, see how you feel the next day. Try doing that almost every day for a month. These guys are all doping. " Well, sic, I KNOW that I cannot do this, nor can anyone else reading these comments I'll wager, but you're not talking about regular folks here. These are ridiculously conditioned, highly trained, elite athletes...not 9-5ers who go for a nightly bike ride around the block. To say that they are all doping is a pretty unfair statement I think. I'm not saying that doping isn't part of the sport, but I do think there are a lot of men and women who accel at their sports cleanly. Just because YOU can't do something, doesn't mean that everyone else MUST be cheating.

By: sic

sic — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:37:05 -0800

Shfishp, I know this is true the same way I know a hitter can't crank out over 70 homeruns in a season unless they are doping. It's the ridiculous level they are doing these stages at, day after day. The average of last years Tour was over 40 km/hr ---- the average! I don't care if you have one testicle or no testicles or three testicles, you need drugs to keep that pace up!

By: jaimev

jaimev — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:48:52 -0800

Landis tells an SI reporter he denies cheating. His mother and sister believe him. He's going to have an HC climb convincing many others.

By: bardic

bardic — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:54:02 -0800

Just so you all know, my mother and sister think I'm an exceptionally cool dude. I hope you'll treat me as such from now on.

By: brain_drain

brain_drain — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:59:30 -0800

ESPN.com's measured take on this news, from the front page: "If Floyd Landis, the winner of the Tour de France, is confirmed to have cheated, can we ever trust anyone again?"

By: Shfishp

Shfishp — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 13:59:50 -0800

If I had three testicles, you can be damn sure I wouldn't be hopping up on one of those little bike seats...owwwch! sic, like I said, I agree that there are drugs in the sport, probably in all sports, except bowling and curling. I just feel bad for the few honest ones who do it cleanly and get painted with that broad "cheater" brush you're using. To use your 70 home run example, yeah, I agree, the big bruisers who are hitting that many are completely (in my opinion) guilty of doping, but guys like Ichiro Suzuki, an amazing player, is probably playing clean, just like the riders at the back of the Tour de France pack.

By: Rashomon

Rashomon — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 14:01:09 -0800

If true, then there just may be no more sports superheros left. { : ^ ( His ride was amazing. I can only hope he passes the second test.

By: peptide

peptide — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 14:06:54 -0800

"The last time a final yellow jersey was disqualified from the race was in 1904 when defending champion Maurice Garin was stripped of his title when it was judged he had taken a train during the race, rather than completing the full route." Also from cyclingnews today.

By: mr_roboto

mr_roboto — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 14:11:39 -0800

peptide writes "The last time a final yellow jersey was disqualified from the race was in 1904 when defending champion Maurice Garin was stripped of his title when it was judged he had taken a train during the race, rather than completing the full route." Now there's a guy with three balls.

By: bluesky43

bluesky43 — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 14:27:31 -0800

Peptide - that is the only thing in this set of comments that made me laugh.

By: sic

sic — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 14:39:16 -0800

From ESPN interview where Landis denies cheating: He raised the possibility that the cortisone shots he's been taking for his ravaged right hip -- the hip he'll soon have replaced -- may have had some effect on the test. Then he revealed this: "I've had a thyroid condition for the last year or so and have been taking small amounts of thyroid hormone. It's an oral dose, once a day." Hmmph, pretty soon all Tour de France winners will have to have some medical condition (one testicle, bad hip) to justify using "good" drugs that can be mistaken for "bad" drugs. Plausibly deniability and all that. By the way, that guy who took the train is THE MOST AWESOMEST CHEATER EVER!

By: sic

sic — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 14:44:09 -0800

Sorry I wanted to link to that "Sports Illustrated" interview.

By: jokeefe

jokeefe — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 15:20:42 -0800

Arlene Landis, the rider's mother, said in a phone interview from her home in Farmersville, Pennsylvania, on Thursday that she wouldn't blame her son if he was taking medication to treat the pain in his injured hip, but "if it's something worse than that, then he doesn't deserve to win. I didn't talk to him since that hit the fan, but I'm keeping things even keel until I know what the facts are. I know that this is a temptation to every rider but I'm not going to jump to conclusions ... It disappoints me." That's gotta hurt.

By: JackFlash

JackFlash — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 15:27:22 -0800

sic, you may have missed the previous comment. My intent was to correct someone's previous erroneous statement. Armstrong was not taking testosterone supplements. It is not permitted by the rules.

By: sic

sic — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 15:51:09 -0800

Ah, Lance denies taking drugs? Well both Landis and his MOM said he didn't cheat and I'm still skeptical.

By: Mitheral

Mitheral — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 16:36:49 -0800

Shfishp writes "If I had three testicles, you can be damn sure I wouldn't be hopping up on one of those little bike seats...owwwch!" You'd just need this saddle. Shfishp writes "I agree that there are drugs in the sport, probably in all sports, except bowling and curling." Unless of course beer is a performance enhancer in these sports.

By: Devils Rancher

Devils Rancher — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 16:37:08 -0800

"I'm shocked. SHOCKED to find doping in athletics!" . . . . . "Your steroids, sire." "Thank you."

By: jack_mo

jack_mo — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 16:50:02 -0800

This is a joke, right? Merckx tested positive at the 1969 Giro, Armstrong almost certainly was taking EPO in 1999, and Lemond and Indurain both raced at a time when doping controls were, at best, minimal. Precisely - anyone who follows the sport knows that doping is a huge and essential part of it. It used to be strychnine, coke, smack and red wine in the water bottle, now its hormones and arcane compounds. There's only one Tour winner I can think of who is generally supposed to have done it clean, but his name has been tarnished rather by suggesting that the holy Armstrong was up to no good. "You have no idea what the Tour de France is. But do you want to see how we keep going? Cocaine for the eyes. Chloroform for the gums. You want to see the pills too? Under the mud our flesh is white as a sheet. Our eyes are swimming and every night we dance like St. Vitus instead of sleeping." - Henri Pelissier, 1924

By: tkchrist

tkchrist — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 16:57:51 -0800

I agree with Bardic. I used to be a big sports fan. Watching the NBA now I just sit there and think what a bunch of over-paid, coddled, cry babies these guys are... and then I remember how much an over-paid, coddled, cry baby I am. And I feel even worse. So rather than self loath, I project my steady laser beam of hatred with even more intensity on the TV until it over heats and explodes.

By: Decani

Decani — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 18:29:59 -0800

Oh, for heaven's sake--who cares????? Err... people who think that cheaters are scum?

By: fixedgear

fixedgear — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 18:39:48 -0800

Hinault: Tour can be won with 'mineral water'

By: stenseng

stenseng — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 19:40:50 -0800

"like I said, I agree that there are drugs in the sport, probably in all sports, except bowling and curling." Um, you have seen The Big Lebowski, right?

By: jimmythefish

jimmythefish — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 20:18:16 -0800

The idea that doping is simply 'cheating' in the Tour isn't quite right, in that, basically, everyone on a pro team at that level is doping. I've heard first hand that pro team contracts stipulate that the rider is to do whatever the team asks of him, and thus, essentially, you're entering into a contract which will require you to dope. So, what it amounts to is an even playing field again - albeit a playing field with serious health and safety consequences (which is why doping isn't openly legal in the first place). It's not cheating if everyone is doing it, but it is still very sad that it's the way it must be. Personally, given this scenario, I admire the hell out of a guy like Armstrong even if he was (I think he was) doping. He was still the best.

By: IshmaelGraves

IshmaelGraves — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 20:20:00 -0800

What the fuck is that? I thought sports was about who wanted it more, not what asshole won the genetic lottery. You did? Really?

By: delmoi

delmoi — Thu, 27 Jul 2006 22:38:28 -0800

I don't know if it is all that unlikely. His strategy in stage 17 was "Fuck them. I can do this. I'm still in this. I'm going to fucking sprint up three mountains." That sounds exactly like my thought process after a few pints. First of all, I don't see why ethanol should be allowed if caffeine isn't. Certainly it would help you mentally push yourself. Anyway. The whole anti-dope thing is ridiculous. A lot of the 'banned' substances these guys take are things that make normal people healthier. I mean Testosterone? Increasing Hemocrit levels? Why should someone with naturally low levels be at a disadvantage to someone with naturally high levels, since it's just genetic? Well, sic, I KNOW that I cannot do this, nor can anyone else reading these comments I'll wager, but you're not talking about regular folks here. These are ridiculously conditioned, highly trained, elite athletes...not 9-5ers who go for a nightly bike ride around the block. I could bike the tour de France rout, it would just take me a lot longer. And that's the thing these guys are all within a few % of each other's capability. Drugs can improve performance by a few % and so it makes a lot of sense to take them, if you think you can avoid getting caught.

By: Skeptic

Skeptic — Fri, 28 Jul 2006 00:11:58 -0800

What I find completely amazing in this thread is that nobody has yet bothered to point out that, if Landis' "amazing" 17th stage recovery was due to (or helped by) doping, Oscar Pereiro has been robbed of the top moment in his career. Even if Landis is stripped of his yellow jersey and Pereiro recognised as TdF winner, he will have missed the whole Champs Elysees celebrations. That's reason enough to be really angry with Landis (if the positive is confirmed).

By: sic

sic — Fri, 28 Jul 2006 01:00:32 -0800

Skeptic, I have thought about that. So, what it amounts to is an even playing field again - albeit a playing field with serious health and safety consequences (which is why doping isn't openly legal in the first place). It's not cheating if everyone is doing it, but it is still very sad that it's the way it must be. Personally, given this scenario, I admire the hell out of a guy like Armstrong even if he was (I think he was) doping. He was still the best. posted by jimmythefish at 8:18 PM PST on July 27 [+fave] [!] I disagree, Armstrong was never on a level playing field. Apart from being a .5 stud, he had much much more money backing him during his incredible run. What does this mean? Better doctors to give him better drugs in such a way as to better mask them from the weak-ass testing administered. Moving on, more money also means that you can buy a team that includes animals like Landis and Roberto Heras, just to name two. At the time he was sacrificing himself for Armstrong, some thought Heras was the best climber in the world (he was later stripped of his victory in the Vuelta de España for, guess what?). Level playing field? Not by a long shot.

By: spira

spira — Fri, 28 Jul 2006 01:31:56 -0800

If the reports that have been coming out are correct, Landis' A test did not show a high testosterone leve; it showed a low epitestosterone. While I tend to believe that everyone on the tour is taking something, I believe that some of these tests do not prove what these organizations claim they prove.

By: Pendragon

Pendragon — Fri, 28 Jul 2006 03:48:48 -0800

Did Armstrong take part in other large races during 1999-2005 ? the Giro or the Vuelta ? No. That could explain his supremacy in the Tour for seven years.

By: Pendragon

Pendragon — Fri, 28 Jul 2006 03:49:38 -0800

That should be six years...His first win was in 1995...

By: dseaton

dseaton — Fri, 28 Jul 2006 04:39:08 -0800

First of all, I don't see why ethanol should be allowed if caffeine isn't. Certainly it would help you mentally push yourself. Anyway. I have no idea what this means, but I'll point out that caffeine is allowed. That's why everybody's always drinking those little cans of coke during the race. And, in fact, ethanol is legal too, but it happens not to be performance enhancing. But that's why you can drink a glass of champagne on the last stage into Paris and not get kicked out of the race.

By: sfenders

sfenders — Fri, 28 Jul 2006 05:19:00 -0800

basically, everyone on a pro team at that level is doping. I've heard first hand that pro team contracts stipulate that the rider is to do whatever the team asks of him, and thus, essentially, you're entering into a contract which will require you to dope. I really have no idea what the truth is, but at the moment I'm leaning towards the idea that it's those who do dope up that spread this kind of information. They may well believe that since the only way they can get by is with illegal pharmaceutical assitance, that therefore everyone must be doing it. Not really logical, but you can see how it would be an appealing notion. I've no idea about Landis, but I've seen other top riders discuss this issue and if they aren't clean, then as well as being remarkable atheletes, they're also world-class talented liars. Very possible, but I see no less reason to trust those who say they don't cheat than those who say everyone does it.

By: Mitheral

Mitheral — Fri, 28 Jul 2006 07:06:14 -0800

jimmythefish writes "I've heard first hand that pro team contracts stipulate that the rider is to do whatever the team asks of him, and thus, essentially, you're entering into a contract which will require you to dope." Contracts in Canada can't require you to do anything illegal, is it different in France?

By: jimmythefish

jimmythefish — Fri, 28 Jul 2006 07:47:08 -0800

Contracts in Canada can't require you to do anything illegal, is it different in France? Well, no - but the guys who end up on the pro teams are willing to do, well, pretty much anything to make a living out of riding their bikes, and/or to win bike races. You can say no, but there's no alternative. Dope and ride, or don't ride for that team.

By: Decani

Decani — Fri, 28 Jul 2006 16:36:41 -0800

I've heard first hand that pro team contracts stipulate that the rider is to do whatever the team asks of him, and thus, essentially, you're entering into a contract which will require you to dope. I do hope you're not implying that signing a contract to do immoral things somehow makes those things okay, are you? I'm sure you're not, but that is what it sounds like. Support our Troops!

By: Decani

Decani — Fri, 28 Jul 2006 16:38:49 -0800

The idea that doping is simply 'cheating' in the Tour isn't quite right Uh, if doping is against the rules then I'm afraid it damned well is, by definition, and you can't spin your way out of it. Sorry.

By: furtive

furtive — Sun, 30 Jul 2006 07:57:01 -0800

Dr Moosburger explained how it was done. "You put a standard testosterone patch that is used for male hormone replacement therapy on your scrotum and leave it there for about six hours. The small dose is not sufficient to produce a positive urine result in the doping test, but the body actually recovers faster." So has anyone checked if he shaves his scrotum? And, in fact, ethanol is legal too, but it happens not to be performance enhancing. But that's why you can drink a glass of champagne on the last stage into Paris and not get kicked out of the race. Your point is slightly overshadowed by a certain french cultural phenomenon. Is it not?

By: Chuckles

Chuckles — Sat, 05 Aug 2006 04:54:34 -0800

Landis' B second sample confirms original finding. And a link to the AskMe question: Is Landis a dope?