Glickman v. Barlow
August 20, 2006 8:59 AM Subscribe
Dan Glickman, president of the MPAA, and John Perry Barlow, Greatful Dead lyricist and co-founder of the EFF, debate movie piracy in this interview (RealVideo) on the BBC's "Click".
I just rented a copy of Star Trek Five The Final Frontier via MovieLink for the soul purpose of enjoying RiffTrax. You spend three bucks and get a timed copy of ST5 which lasts all of 24 hours. I thought I'd try it to see if I'd like it. I feel like Barnum is laughing at me from his grave.
Screw Glickman. Screw the MPAA.
"Theft is when you take something from somebody and they don't have it anymore! That's theft!" - John Perry Barlow
He's my hero! =)
posted by ZachsMind at 9:37 AM on August 20, 2006
Screw Glickman. Screw the MPAA.
"Theft is when you take something from somebody and they don't have it anymore! That's theft!" - John Perry Barlow
He's my hero! =)
posted by ZachsMind at 9:37 AM on August 20, 2006
This is a little over six minutes into it. This is a precious gem of words right here. I think the question posed to Barlow was something like what would you say to people like Glickman to get them to calm the fuck down. What's the good news and the bad news and the good news?
"The good news is that you guys have managed to buy every major legislative body in the planet, but you know the problem is, the bad news is that you're up against a dedicated foe that is younger and smarter than you are and will be alive when you are dead, and has historical forces on its side, and is using its technological acumen very adeptly to ward off all of your efforts of control and you're gonna lose that one. I mean you're fifty-five years old and these kids are seventeen and they're just smarter than you are. So you're gonna lose that one. But the good news is you guys are mean sons of bitches and you've been figuring out ways to rip off audiences and artists for centuries really, and all you gotta do is get outta bed a little earlier in the morning for a spell and you'll find new ways of doing this. I have every faith in you and you should give yourselves a little credit, instead of howling that you're going to be victimized. It's not like you to be victimized." - John Perry Barlow
He's my hero!
posted by ZachsMind at 9:51 AM on August 20, 2006 [1 favorite]
"The good news is that you guys have managed to buy every major legislative body in the planet, but you know the problem is, the bad news is that you're up against a dedicated foe that is younger and smarter than you are and will be alive when you are dead, and has historical forces on its side, and is using its technological acumen very adeptly to ward off all of your efforts of control and you're gonna lose that one. I mean you're fifty-five years old and these kids are seventeen and they're just smarter than you are. So you're gonna lose that one. But the good news is you guys are mean sons of bitches and you've been figuring out ways to rip off audiences and artists for centuries really, and all you gotta do is get outta bed a little earlier in the morning for a spell and you'll find new ways of doing this. I have every faith in you and you should give yourselves a little credit, instead of howling that you're going to be victimized. It's not like you to be victimized." - John Perry Barlow
He's my hero!
posted by ZachsMind at 9:51 AM on August 20, 2006 [1 favorite]
Oh my God RealPalyer sucks so bad. It's now taken me a half hour to watch six minutes of the video.
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:25 AM on August 20, 2006
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:25 AM on August 20, 2006
It's worth it though, right? Six minutes in? Barlow is so like beyond cool and stuff. =)
posted by ZachsMind at 10:34 AM on August 20, 2006
posted by ZachsMind at 10:34 AM on August 20, 2006
arrghh... i'll never understand why China thinks BBC is so damn dangerous. NY Times, unblocked, Washington Post, unblocked, das Spiegel (which has been very critical after a man was killed for talking to a German film crew), unblocked... BBC, unaccessible even with a proxy.
Anyone know of a transcript or mirror?
posted by trinarian at 12:39 PM on August 20, 2006
Anyone know of a transcript or mirror?
posted by trinarian at 12:39 PM on August 20, 2006
(just for reference, Robert Hunter was the main lyricist for the Dead]
posted by trinarian at 12:45 PM on August 20, 2006
posted by trinarian at 12:45 PM on August 20, 2006
In these discussions, it should be against the "rules" to make any form of analogy between the sale of physical objects (clothes, cars, etc) and digital media.
JPB used the word acumen, which is a fine word. His analogy with Dead taping isn't entirely fair though - the band made the bulk of their money off concert sales - dead tapes don't compete with their (generally crappy :-) albums.
If a performer doesn't want copies of the performance/media copied, one should respect that, not distribute it and then make some claim that it's morally "okay".
Hey MPAA, here's a tip: make better/original movies. Then I might start attending again.
Jeez.
posted by parki at 1:02 PM on August 20, 2006
JPB used the word acumen, which is a fine word. His analogy with Dead taping isn't entirely fair though - the band made the bulk of their money off concert sales - dead tapes don't compete with their (generally crappy :-) albums.
If a performer doesn't want copies of the performance/media copied, one should respect that, not distribute it and then make some claim that it's morally "okay".
Hey MPAA, here's a tip: make better/original movies. Then I might start attending again.
Jeez.
posted by parki at 1:02 PM on August 20, 2006
Glickman is really annoying and his musty, clueless argument sucks.
posted by chance at 1:54 PM on August 20, 2006
posted by chance at 1:54 PM on August 20, 2006
"Hey MPAA, here's a tip: make better/original movies. Then I might start attending again.
Jeez."
Yeah, and while you're at it, get the fucking theater chains to stop charging 10 bucks for a ticket, five bucks for a soda, and three bucks for a box of raisinets.
Last time I took my whole family out to see a movie, Brokeback, I think, it cost me almost a hundred dollars after tickets and concessions!
You shouldn't have to take out a second mortgage to go see a goddamned movie!
posted by stenseng at 4:02 PM on August 20, 2006
Jeez."
Yeah, and while you're at it, get the fucking theater chains to stop charging 10 bucks for a ticket, five bucks for a soda, and three bucks for a box of raisinets.
Last time I took my whole family out to see a movie, Brokeback, I think, it cost me almost a hundred dollars after tickets and concessions!
You shouldn't have to take out a second mortgage to go see a goddamned movie!
posted by stenseng at 4:02 PM on August 20, 2006
"You shouldn't have to take out a second mortgage to go see a goddamned movie!"
You don't have to, Stenseng. That's the point. You just wait for the film to be available by other means and watch it in the privacy of your own home, where you can eat and drink what you want, smoke if you want, have alcohol if you want, and if you wanna shout at the screen and throw popcorn at it, it's your house.
Glickman's a fossil. He and his kind are extinct. They just haven't had the decency to get covered by dirt and turn into petroleum products.
posted by ZachsMind at 6:12 PM on August 20, 2006
You don't have to, Stenseng. That's the point. You just wait for the film to be available by other means and watch it in the privacy of your own home, where you can eat and drink what you want, smoke if you want, have alcohol if you want, and if you wanna shout at the screen and throw popcorn at it, it's your house.
Glickman's a fossil. He and his kind are extinct. They just haven't had the decency to get covered by dirt and turn into petroleum products.
posted by ZachsMind at 6:12 PM on August 20, 2006
JPB used the word acumen, which is a fine word. His analogy with Dead taping isn't entirely fair though - the band made the bulk of their money off concert sales - dead tapes don't compete with their (generally crappy :-) albums.
And in a recent bit of irony, the Grateful Dead has forced archive.org to stop distributing "soundboard" live recordings of Grateful Dead shows.
posted by milnak at 6:27 PM on August 20, 2006
And in a recent bit of irony, the Grateful Dead has forced archive.org to stop distributing "soundboard" live recordings of Grateful Dead shows.
posted by milnak at 6:27 PM on August 20, 2006
Do we agree, ZachsMind, that this is theft?
Hey MPAA, here's a tip: make better/original movies. Then I might start attending again.
posted by parki at 9:24 PM EST on August 20 [+] [!]
It isn't theft, it's copyright infringement., i.e. you are infringing someone else's rights, namely their right to control how the product they created and own gets distributed.
I know it's fun and hip and very dot-cool to talk about how illegal digital distribution actually helps them blah blah, but it's all hot air.
And the "better movies" argument fails too. The movies are good enough that people want to break the law to get them. And if you are over 18, the movies in the the big chain theaters aren't really fo you. Do you really think movie studios spend hundreds of millions of dollars to make movies about comic book superheroes in tights because they think the over 30 priofessional is going to see it? This stuff is for 14 year olds.
What's wrong with netflix, or pay per view? You can get a movie your whole family can see for literally pennies.
posted by Pastabagel at 8:25 PM on August 20, 2006
Hey MPAA, here's a tip: make better/original movies. Then I might start attending again.
posted by parki at 9:24 PM EST on August 20 [+] [!]
It isn't theft, it's copyright infringement., i.e. you are infringing someone else's rights, namely their right to control how the product they created and own gets distributed.
I know it's fun and hip and very dot-cool to talk about how illegal digital distribution actually helps them blah blah, but it's all hot air.
And the "better movies" argument fails too. The movies are good enough that people want to break the law to get them. And if you are over 18, the movies in the the big chain theaters aren't really fo you. Do you really think movie studios spend hundreds of millions of dollars to make movies about comic book superheroes in tights because they think the over 30 priofessional is going to see it? This stuff is for 14 year olds.
What's wrong with netflix, or pay per view? You can get a movie your whole family can see for literally pennies.
posted by Pastabagel at 8:25 PM on August 20, 2006
arrghh... i'll never understand why China thinks BBC is so damn dangerous
I suspect it's the same reason we have to turn to the British Broadcasting Corporation for a serious debate between two Americans. The BBC is subversive because they actually explore topics in depth and to a degree of sophistication and complexity totally unknown in the US.
Glickman isn't a fossil, Barlow is. He represents one of the largest industries in the United States. Barlow was in a band most seventeen year olds have never heard of. What people don't get is that not only is he legally correct, he's morally in the right as well. Someone spends a lot of money to make X. People on the internet really want to see X. Aren't they morally obligated to compensate the creator for X?
This is part of a larger trend of ridiculing and vilifying everything from large corporations. Corporations are charging too much to make huge profits, blah blah blah. But part and parcel with this is a certain immaturity - I don't want to pay what they want so I'll just take it anyway. Wrong. If you don't want to pay to see it, don't see it at all. The collective filesharing community seems to have difficulty with this notion.
the bad news is that you're up against a dedicated foe that is younger and smarter than you are and will be alive when you are dead, and has historical forces on its side, and is using its technological acumen very adeptly to ward off all of your efforts of control ...
Well, they may be younger, but what exactly makes them smarter? That they invented bittorrent, or cracked CSS? The RIAA seems to have no trouble finding and suing these younger, smarter criminals.
And "ward off all of your efforts of control"? Who is he kidding? How many kids sign up for myspace, which is basicaly a market research collection engine for News Corp. Go through the archives of digg and metafilter, and look at all the praise and excitement over google's every beta rollout. We all know that google is tracking everything you do and yet no one seems to care.
Barlow is the fossil, not Glickman. Barlow seems to think the 60's ethos of fighting the man is alive and well. John, take a look at youtube or myspace some day. Every single one of those people in those videos or with a myspace page wants to work in the entertainment industry. Hell, look at how many myspace photos are professional headshots.
These "kids" (they are 17 for crying out loud stop calling them kids) don't want to fight the man, they want to work for him, because he's the ultimate sugar daddy. Ipods and Lugz cost money after all. These kids are part of a generation that is more willing to conform and obey than any other. The term "sell out" has no meaning when rap lyrics are littered with luxury brand names.
We're two wars and counting and piling up more national debt and consumer debt faster than anyone can keep track of, do you see 18 yr olds taking to the streets, dropping out of the system, rioting, doing any of the things they did in the 60s? These kids that John highlights are going through all this trouble to avoid paying for movies and CDs while they (collectively) try to score big VC and hollywood money. It's not about tuning in and dropping out, it's about fitting in and cashing out.
The sixties are dead, John.
posted by Pastabagel at 9:08 PM on August 20, 2006 [1 favorite]
I suspect it's the same reason we have to turn to the British Broadcasting Corporation for a serious debate between two Americans. The BBC is subversive because they actually explore topics in depth and to a degree of sophistication and complexity totally unknown in the US.
Glickman isn't a fossil, Barlow is. He represents one of the largest industries in the United States. Barlow was in a band most seventeen year olds have never heard of. What people don't get is that not only is he legally correct, he's morally in the right as well. Someone spends a lot of money to make X. People on the internet really want to see X. Aren't they morally obligated to compensate the creator for X?
This is part of a larger trend of ridiculing and vilifying everything from large corporations. Corporations are charging too much to make huge profits, blah blah blah. But part and parcel with this is a certain immaturity - I don't want to pay what they want so I'll just take it anyway. Wrong. If you don't want to pay to see it, don't see it at all. The collective filesharing community seems to have difficulty with this notion.
the bad news is that you're up against a dedicated foe that is younger and smarter than you are and will be alive when you are dead, and has historical forces on its side, and is using its technological acumen very adeptly to ward off all of your efforts of control ...
Well, they may be younger, but what exactly makes them smarter? That they invented bittorrent, or cracked CSS? The RIAA seems to have no trouble finding and suing these younger, smarter criminals.
And "ward off all of your efforts of control"? Who is he kidding? How many kids sign up for myspace, which is basicaly a market research collection engine for News Corp. Go through the archives of digg and metafilter, and look at all the praise and excitement over google's every beta rollout. We all know that google is tracking everything you do and yet no one seems to care.
Barlow is the fossil, not Glickman. Barlow seems to think the 60's ethos of fighting the man is alive and well. John, take a look at youtube or myspace some day. Every single one of those people in those videos or with a myspace page wants to work in the entertainment industry. Hell, look at how many myspace photos are professional headshots.
These "kids" (they are 17 for crying out loud stop calling them kids) don't want to fight the man, they want to work for him, because he's the ultimate sugar daddy. Ipods and Lugz cost money after all. These kids are part of a generation that is more willing to conform and obey than any other. The term "sell out" has no meaning when rap lyrics are littered with luxury brand names.
We're two wars and counting and piling up more national debt and consumer debt faster than anyone can keep track of, do you see 18 yr olds taking to the streets, dropping out of the system, rioting, doing any of the things they did in the 60s? These kids that John highlights are going through all this trouble to avoid paying for movies and CDs while they (collectively) try to score big VC and hollywood money. It's not about tuning in and dropping out, it's about fitting in and cashing out.
The sixties are dead, John.
posted by Pastabagel at 9:08 PM on August 20, 2006 [1 favorite]
"Paging Mr. G. Gekko... Mr. G. Gekko to the white courtesy phone please..."
posted by stenseng at 10:27 PM on August 20, 2006
posted by stenseng at 10:27 PM on August 20, 2006
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posted by digaman at 9:17 AM on August 20, 2006