Comments on: Just a girl?

Just a girl?

mr.marx — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 11:34:29 -0800

Muse + 120% pitch shift = Gwen Stefani

By: namespan

namespan — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 11:42:41 -0800

Let me be the first to ask: have they ever been seen in the same place at the same time?

By: GuyZero

GuyZero — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 11:43:12 -0800

Spooky. There must be some explanation involving harmonics or something. Or selling your soul for musical success.

By: Jon Mitchell

Jon Mitchell — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 11:46:16 -0800

I remember pitching up Michael Dorn's "There is the theory of the Mobius...a twist in the fabric of space, where time becomes a loop" from Star Trek: TNG, and it sounding almost exactly like Ron Howard in Happy Days. Odd. I never tried the reverse, though...

By: aaronetc

aaronetc — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 11:53:20 -0800

Perhaps I just haven't listened to Gwen Stefani sing since Tragic Kingdom, but the shifted version doesn't sound all that much like her to my ears.

By: clockzero

clockzero — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 11:55:26 -0800

Oh, come on. It doesn't sound like her at all.

By: LooseFilter

LooseFilter — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 11:59:10 -0800

Wait...you mean that if you pitch shift a man's voice upwards a whole bunch...it might sound like a woman?? Call the Music Police.

By: Kwantsar

Kwantsar — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:10:23 -0800

Uncanny.

By: weretable and the undead chairs

weretable and the undead chairs — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:12:21 -0800

It didn't sound even remotely like Stefani.

By: ludwig_van

ludwig_van — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:14:42 -0800

It doesn't sound like Gwen Stefani, it sounds like the guy from Muse pitch-shifted. Maybe that seems crazy if you've never played with a pitch-shifter before.

By: TheDonF

TheDonF — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:14:45 -0800

It's not that similar - I'd have struggled to work it out if the visuals weren't there. If we're posting links from this week's B3TA mailout, this Dr Who/Call Centre one is pretty funny. /derail

By: TheDonF

TheDonF — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:16:35 -0800

Pitchshifter?

By: chudmonkey

chudmonkey — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:17:11 -0800

Yeah, I'm not sure I would have heard Gwen Stefani in that if the pictures of her weren't there. And now I'll never know. Have to test it on my roomies, sound-only.

By: fire&wings

fire&wings — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:17:56 -0800

It would sound more like Gwen Stefani if the guy hadn't put the Muse song first.

By: clockzero

clockzero — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:38:34 -0800

It does remind me a little bit of early Weezer.

By: bobo123

bobo123 — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:43:37 -0800

There's a lot of stuff out there that sounds like it's trying to be a Gwen Stefani song, like the new Fergie and Paris Hilton singles... but I don't quite hear it here.

By: Stunt

Stunt — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:44:54 -0800

I'm going to throw my vote in with the "no it doesn't" crowd. I also decided to listen to it rather than see the images (and found that my brain did try to think it sounded more like gwen when I did watch it), but to me it just sounds like muse pitch-shifted.

By: loquacious

loquacious — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:48:32 -0800

Nothing at all like Gwen. Gwen has boobies.

By: Deep Dish

Deep Dish — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:52:01 -0800

Nothing at all like Gwen. Gwen has boobies. I always thought she looked like a 12 year old boy

By: BuddhaInABucket

BuddhaInABucket — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 12:56:12 -0800

It sounds more like her than not like her. It's not a perfect resemblance but it's definitely there. I was surprised.

By: cillit bang

cillit bang — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:00:49 -0800

Sounds more like Drugstore to me. The slowed-down Gwen linked further down sounds way better (probably because it doesn't involve a Muse record). Gwen has boobies. Boobs, yes. Boobies, no.

By: tomplus2

tomplus2 — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:06:03 -0800

Even better is the other way around (mp3).

By: pointilist

pointilist — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:11:07 -0800

'musing.

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:17:18 -0800

Yeah, it really does. Part of that is similar phrasing, part of that is the already pitch-corrected nature of major label releases. With many of the vocal idiosyncracities smoothed out by ProTools etc., a lot of people sound a lot like each other. Like how that guy from Muse sounds like about a million other mid-tempo Brit crooners (though I'm sure someone with more familiarity than I will point out how, no, he sounds nothing like that guy from Keane or Athlete or Coldplay or James Blount or even kinda like the guy from Mercury Rev, though I think that's really just the theramin reminding me of the saw...)

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:17:37 -0800

And the slowed-down Stefani sounds like 4 Non Blondes.

By: clockzero

clockzero — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:28:26 -0800

You are factually mistaken, klang. Those British crooners are all copying Thom Yorke, as far as any right-thinking person is concerned, and I challenge anyone who disagrees to engage in an acrimonious and infantile bout of mud-slinging.

By: ludwig_van

ludwig_van — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:32:02 -0800

Part of that is similar phrasing, part of that is the already pitch-corrected nature of major label releases. With many of the vocal idiosyncracities smoothed out by ProTools etc., a lot of people sound a lot like each other. Yeah, that must be it! Those British crooners are all copying Thom Yorke Indeed.

By: Item

Item — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:34:06 -0800

Yorke is a wuss.

By: clockzero

clockzero — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:41:32 -0800

item, I really want to abuse your position here, but you're not giving me much to work with.

By: Effigy2000

Effigy2000 — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:45:15 -0800

"Whoh" indeed.

By: robla

robla — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:46:52 -0800

Another spooky one is Jeff Lynne (Electric Light Orchestra) and Dolly Parton. I used to play ELO LPs at 45 to achieve that effect...may need to update my tech

By: Uther Bentrazor

Uther Bentrazor — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 13:57:12 -0800

To paraphrase a common snark: Is this something I would have to own a radio to understand?

By: fourcheesemac

fourcheesemac — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:17:06 -0800

This Gwen Stefani, she sings?

By: abulafa

abulafa — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:18:23 -0800

Thom Yorke derail: he's hiding behind all those unnecessary letters. I second the ProTools-enhancement normalizing vocals theory, not to mention the coincidental Gwen Stefani rasp correlating nicely with the pitch-shifted brit-crooner rasp. These big pattern-matching machines we pack in our skulls are really quite eager to do the job evolution groomed them for, methinks. Move along, nothing to hear here.

By: randomination

randomination — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:24:04 -0800

... and if you notch it up 200%, it sounds almost exactly like Alvin and the Chipmunks.

By: furtive

furtive — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:32:45 -0800

We're all chipmunks now.

By: ZachsMind

ZachsMind — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:50:51 -0800

What I'd like to know is how to use Audacity to pitchshift a vocal without affecting any of the other music. It'd be cool to be able to do that. You could appreciate songs all over again with a new sounding vocalist. Maybe Bellamy doesn't sound like Stefani but it is a distinctively feminine difference with the pitch shift. This isn't anything new. I recall a similar MeFi link about this awhile back where someone discovered on one particular song Madonna could sound like Rod Stewart or Pat Benatar could sound like that guy from Crash Test Dummies or whatever. It's amusing but not ground breaking. Occasionally you can hear this kind of tweaking on modern recordings post Milli Vanilli. The most famous of which is on Cher's last big selling album. It was pitchshifted like crazy. She can't actually hit all those notes she's never been that good. Awesome performer. Great show~~man~~person. Mediocre singer. I hear if you pitch shift her up just a tad, she sounds like Sonny Bono.

By: cortex

cortex — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 14:56:51 -0800

By: Clamwacker

Clamwacker — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:38:05 -0800

Wow. Listening to Glen Stefani sing "I'm just a girl" has rocked my entire experience. I've been told before that they use extensive digital effects just to make her voice sound reasonable, and this just makes it seem more plausible.

By: moonbird

moonbird — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:52:06 -0800

Pitch up Bruce Springsteen and you get Dolly Parton.

By: chill

chill — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:58:18 -0800

Reminds me of a rumour back in the eighties that Kylie Minogue never actually sang on her records, it was actually Rick Astley pitch shifted up, based on the fact that if you slowed down I Should Be So Lucky, it sounded like Rich Astley.

By: ZachsMind

ZachsMind — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:06:02 -0800

"So you'd like to...make the vocals be totally out of key?" Eww yeah I guess it wouldn't work then would it? But if you pitch the whole thing it makes the whole song sound weird. I guess ultimately this discovery is kinda like discovering Mentos & Diet Coke is an explosive combination. Sure it's cute and all... but doesn't quite impact the universe now does it? It's like discovering that The Fifth Element is really boron. Once you get past it's thrilling atomic weight, there really isn't anything all that exciting about boron.

By: cortex

cortex — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:16:34 -0800

Eww yeah I guess it wouldn't work then would it? Heh. Yeah. But getting different vocalists to record against carefully recorded different-key emulations would work. Though that's a whole different thing. Also, step off of boron.

By: toma

toma — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:22:36 -0800

Man, that 'Muse', who or whatever that is, is so obviously Yorke. And Stefani is pathetic. And, no, it's not that close, especially with the slow vibrato. But they both look real pretty.

By: Second Account For Making Jokey Comments

Second Account For Making Jokey Comments — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:26:37 -0800

Pitch up Dolly Parton and you get a big boobed blonde whore.

By: randomination

randomination — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:29:02 -0800

The song featured in the clip isn't really representative of Muse TBH. Muse is more big bombastic guitars and organs with Matt Bellamy's reedy voice amplified in front of it. I think Muse sounds more like Kent than Radiohead, and Kent got there first.

By: cell divide

cell divide — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:40:20 -0800

The reason it sounds a bit like Stefani is that she sings with a kind of weird effect, I don't know the techical term or even how to describe it exactly but she slighty varies the pitch within a single note, kind of how a warped record sounds for a second. It's the same effect you get from the pitchshifter, kind of.

By: KirkJobSluder

KirkJobSluder — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:45:49 -0800

randomination: The song featured in the clip isn't really representative of Muse TBH. Muse is more big bombastic guitars and organs with Matt Bellamy's reedy voice amplified in front of it. You mean, they don't normally suck as bad as the clip used? The pitch-shifted version just sounds wrong.

By: Hypnic jerk

Hypnic jerk — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:58:44 -0800

I don't know the techical term or even how to describe it exactly but she slighty varies the pitch within a single note Vibrato. Chrissie Hynde's was endearing because it was natural, Gwen's is contrived and just grating. Muse doesn't really suck that much, but Bellamy does sound a bit too much like Thom Yorke for me to either really like them or take them seriously. I kind of put them in the Our Lady Peace category: a band I won't instantly hit the Next button on the IPod when they come up, but neither do I search for them.

By: Alvy Ampersand

Alvy Ampersand — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:14:33 -0800

Actually sounds a bit more like Brandi *Swoon!* Carlile(Embedded audio) to me... or a twelve-year-old Thom Yorke.

By: ludwig_van

ludwig_van — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:16:54 -0800

What I'd like to know is how to use Audacity to pitchshift a vocal without affecting any of the other music. You can't. There might be multi-band pitchshifters out there, but I've never heard of one and doubt it would do the trick very well. And cortex, it wouldn't be out of key if you moved it up an octave. I second the ProTools-enhancement normalizing vocals theory Has anyone saying this used ProTools? Occasionally you can hear this kind of tweaking on modern recordings post Milli Vanilli. The most famous of which is on Cher's last big selling album. It was pitchshifted like crazy. She can't actually hit all those notes she's never been that good. I think you're confusing a pitch shifter with an auto-tuner or a vocoder. Auto-tune is used on most modern records. Pitch shifters and vocoders aren't. And of course, ProTools =/= auto-tune.

By: ludwig_van

ludwig_van — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:18:33 -0800

(A pitchshifter being a tool that transposes a track by a specified amount/interval, a vocoder being a tool that combines tone from an instrument with formants captured from a voice, and an auto-tuner being a tool that alters individual pitches within a track to be more in tune.)

By: Kattullus

Kattullus — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:25:55 -0800

On everybody copying Thom Yorke: It's pretty well established that the particular modern croon popularized on The Bends was a copy of the Jeff Buckley vocal style. In this month's Paste or Mojo (or possibly some other music mag) Thom Yorke talks about how he was having trouble recording the vocal tracks for The Bends and the band was getting fractious. The producer decided that they needed to have a night off and took them all to see Jeff Buckley play, and Radiohead got so fired up that they hurried back to the studio and knocked out some tracks. If you like that sort of thing I recommend Jeff Buckley's Grace. Zachsmind: The boron joke made me howl with laughter.

By: flapjax at midnite

flapjax at midnite — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:26:05 -0800

posted by Second Account For Making Jokey Comments:"Pitch up Dolly Parton and you get a big boobed blonde whore." Whore? Whore? Have you considered getting a "Third Account for Ignorant and Unwarranted Comments"?

By: Deathalicious

Deathalicious — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:36:02 -0800

OT:

By: abulafa

abulafa — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:52:00 -0800

ludwig_van: Yes. Was avoiding a bunch of "pitch 'correction' normalizes the voice in such a way that only the non-sinusoidal signals retain source characteristics so two such normalized vocal samples sharing percussive (broad-spectrum) characteristics may sound similar when reprocessed into the same pitch" babble. Regarding Stefani's vocal style: (non-snark) is it still vibrato when it only happens on the attack and not sustained throughout? It seems like there'd be another vocal term for it.

By: Dub

Dub — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 17:58:05 -0800

That's strange: If you play Talk Talk and No Doubt's (Gwen again!) version of Talk Talk's "It's My Life" They're played at EXACTLY the same tempo (except for a few bars, near the middle, where they've dropped in something suspiciously like a riff from the Police's "Roxanne")

By: arialblack

arialblack — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 18:39:46 -0800

"120% pitchshift" strongly resembles Super Psychedelic Rainbow Ken Burns Effect. I am using Firefox 1.5.0.6 does anyone else see this?

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 18:42:58 -0800

"Those British crooners are all copying Thom Yorke, as far as any right-thinking person is concerned, and I challenge anyone who disagrees to engage in an acrimonious and infantile bout of mud-slinging." Yeah, or (as noted) Jeff Buckley, though I tend to associate Buckley with more unnecessary histrionics than anything else. But I think more than just Yorke, which would be the influence they'd all acknowledge/get miffed about, they sound more and more like each other, a vague amorphous blob of similarly treated affectations and croon. And yes, Ludwig, I have worked with correcting vocals in ProTools and generally understand both the sound and the technique. And if you don't think people that don't have extensive experience can't still immediately identify the similarities in that style of treatment, and that there aren't similarities in these voices, then you're vastly overestimating the value of experience over a good ear.

By: Hypnic jerk

Hypnic jerk — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 18:58:35 -0800

Yeah, or (as noted) Jeff Buckley, though I tend to associate Buckley with more unnecessary histrionics than anything else. Can I buy the next round? Klangklangston, I don't know you, and odds are, sadly that I will never meet you and be able to buy you a real beer, but you consistently post comments on MeFI that are almost exact transcriptions of things I have said in bars over the years. So, this virtual round is on me, bro.

By: ludwig_van

ludwig_van — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:37:58 -0800

is it still vibrato when it only happens on the attack and not sustained throughout? Yes. And if you don't think people that don't have extensive experience can't still immediately identify the similarities in that style of treatment I'm saying it's incorrect to act as though ProTools, a piece of multi-track recording software, is somehow responsible for the way some people apply plugins to vocals tracks.

By: micayetoca

micayetoca — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:40:58 -0800

I too think the Muse guy is trying to copy Yorke. I wonder if changing the pitch of Yorke (or Jeff Buckley, now that he seems to be the original Yorke) would make him sound like Gwen Stefani. Anyone got the time and software?

By: liquorice

liquorice — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:01:18 -0800

Gwen Stefani has boobs? Oh, since the boob job, I see.

By: jokeefe

jokeefe — Sat, 26 Aug 2006 22:04:39 -0800

Thom Yorke talks about how he was having trouble recording the vocal tracks for The Bends and the band was getting fractious. The producer decided that they needed to have a night off and took them all to see Jeff Buckley play, and Radiohead got so fired up that they hurried back to the studio and knocked out some tracks. That was the night they recorded Fake Plastic Trees-- the second take is the one on the album. Yorke has always acknowledged Buckley's influence at that point, saying that he gave him the courage to sing falsetto. [/RH dork]

By: mmoncur

mmoncur — Sun, 27 Aug 2006 04:15:49 -0800

I didn't think it sounded anything like Gwen Stefani, although the pictures on Youtube were a nice way to enforce the suggestion. The pitched-down "I'm just a girl" sounds EXACTLY like Danny Elfman, though.

By: randomination

randomination — Sun, 27 Aug 2006 04:19:58 -0800

I too think the Muse guy is trying to copy Yorke. I wonder if changing the pitch of Yorke (or Jeff Buckley, now that he seems to be the original Yorke) would make him sound like Gwen Stefani. Anyone got the time and software?

Here is Yorke's current single, Harrowdown Hill^, pitch-shifted up by 20%. It sounds like... ermm... It sounds... like... Look, I think I need to spend the rest of the day in the garden. *turns computer off*

By: Bugbread

Bugbread — Sun, 27 Aug 2006 06:02:28 -0800

cortex : "So you'd like to...make the vocals be totally out of key?" Pump 'em up an octave (or down an octave) and you're in key. So probably only useful for dropping high singers low and low singers high...pitch shifting someone singing high even higher would just result in chipmunks, and dropping a baritone lower would just make deathmetal. ludwig_van : "I think you're confusing a pitch shifter with an auto-tuner or a vocoder." I haven't heard the Cher album, so I can't say anything with any certainty, but if the song was in C, with no troublesome low notes, but some hard to reach high notes, she could have sang the whole thing in A and then pitchifted it up to C, no? Some death-metal, for example, uses a pitchshifter (not a vocoder or autotune) to drop already low vocals an entire octave, into gutteral rumbling. So it seems like it could be done, with a much smaller interval, to help someone reach a few high notes that they normally couldn't. Now, if someone is having problems hitting high notes and low notes, then, yeah, a pitchshifter could in no way work, and auto-tuner or vocoder would be far more likely. I think the problem with Pro-Tools (er, rather, the perception of Pro-Tools) is that it only comes up among non-musicians in discussions about correcting vocalists' lack of skill, drummers' lack of rhythm, etc., so people outside of the industry associate "covering up for bad musicianship" with "Pro-Tools". I would've fallen into that trap as well, if it weren't the fact that the first place I ever heard of Pro-Tools was from an electronic musician who used no live instruments or vocals.

By: cortex

cortex — Sun, 27 Aug 2006 08:25:29 -0800

>What I'd like to know is how to use Audacity to pitchshift a vocal without affecting any of the other music. You can't. There might be multi-band pitchshifters out there, but I've never heard of one and doubt it would do the trick very well. Well, you could isolate the vocals if* the stereo separation is right, and then throw them whereever you like. *Big if, YMMV, etc. But then you'd still be throwing the vocals entirely out of key. Yes, yes, unless... Pump 'em up an octave (or down an octave) and you're in key. So probably only useful for dropping high singers low and low singers high...pitch shifting someone singing high even higher would just result in chipmunks, and dropping a baritone lower would just make deathmetal. Exactly. Sure, shift 'em by an octave. That's not exactly encouraging granularity—you'd be able to hear shit as sung by Alvin or Satan, and that's it. Might was well say, "Au contraire! We can get the kitten out of that crevice! We need only shoot it in the face!"

By: ludwig_van

ludwig_van — Sun, 27 Aug 2006 09:04:57 -0800

I haven't heard the Cher album, so I can't say anything with any certainty, but if the song was in C, with no troublesome low notes, but some hard to reach high notes, she could have sang the whole thing in A and then pitchifted it up to C, no? Sure, I suppose so, although I think the effect would be pretty obvious. I interpreted the reference as being about something like Cher's "Believe," which tends to come up in conversations about vocal processing. The production on that track is explained here. I think the problem with Pro-Tools (er, rather, the perception of Pro-Tools) is that it only comes up among non-musicians in discussions about correcting vocalists' lack of skill, drummers' lack of rhythm, etc., so people outside of the industry associate "covering up for bad musicianship" with "Pro-Tools". Indeed. I mean, blame Waves for L3 and Antares for Auto-Tune before you blame DigiDesign for ProTools. It's an excellent piece of software. (And so are L3 and Auto-Tune, they just tend to get abused.)

By: ikalliom

ikalliom — Sun, 27 Aug 2006 09:54:50 -0800

There are much more elaborate ways for changing the gender of a vocalist than simply using a pitch shifter. Pitch shifting only works if the male singing voice is high (Bellamy) and female voice low (Stefani) so that the formants of the signal do not overly change. Note how the track was sped up only 20% while the difference in average vocal range is about one octave (100%) between males and females. It's not just pitch shifting or auto tune anymore, modern vocal effects processors include for example format-corrected pitch shifters, where the resonances of the signal are kept in the same place while the pitch itself is altered (demo, changing an adult female to a child).

By: NinjaTadpole

NinjaTadpole — Sun, 27 Aug 2006 11:42:21 -0800

The Yorke shift was fab, thanks randomination. Of course, playing records at the wrong speed with excellent results would be very familiar ground to John Peel listeners. .

By: klangklangston

klangklangston — Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:14:54 -0800

"I think the problem with Pro-Tools (er, rather, the perception of Pro-Tools) is that it only comes up among non-musicians in discussions about correcting vocalists' lack of skill, drummers' lack of rhythm, etc., so people outside of the industry associate "covering up for bad musicianship" with "Pro-Tools". I would've fallen into that trap as well, if it weren't the fact that the first place I ever heard of Pro-Tools was from an electronic musician who used no live instruments or vocals." Oh, no, that's not how I meant it at all. It's just that there are certain tropes that happen when you use digital studio software lazily that are pretty apparent. Like how you can tell when someone has used FruityLoops for drum programming. ProTools (or FruityLoops, for that matter), is totally inaudible and unobtrusive when used correctly.

By: ®@

®@ — Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:27:24 -0800

I guess I'm the only guy who thinks that sounds a lot like Gwen.

By: micayetoca

micayetoca — Sun, 27 Aug 2006 14:32:39 -0800

I think so too. A lot, actually. (btw, thx randomination for taking the trouble with the Yorke shift. The results were kinda unsettling, weren't they)

By: TwoWordReview

TwoWordReview — Mon, 28 Aug 2006 06:25:53 -0800

Speaking of Jeff Buckley and pitch shifting and all that malarkay, I always loved that track (think it was on live á l'olympia but not too sure about that) where he plays Kashmir as it would sound if you played the LP at 78 rpm! It's kind of awesome!

By: parilous

parilous — Mon, 28 Aug 2006 09:13:23 -0800

I was 10 when I learned that playing Bruce Springsteen's "I'm On Fire" at 45rpm (rather than 33 1/3) makes him sound like Dolly Parton. ...Just sayin'.

By: parilous

parilous — Mon, 28 Aug 2006 09:16:58 -0800

moonbird -- D'oh -- I just saw your comment. Sorry for the duplicate without credit. :\

By: leapfrog

leapfrog — Mon, 28 Aug 2006 14:27:30 -0800

In other news, Nickelback still sucks.