Comments on: Westerns, Noirs, and Sci-Fi, Oh My!

Westerns, Noirs, and Sci-Fi, Oh My!

jonp72 — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 12:07:59 -0800

Ten Neglected Science Fiction Movies, and Ten Overlooked Noirs selected by Jonathan Rosenbaum. A follow-up to an earlier post on offbeat musicals.

By: matteo

matteo — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 12:13:25 -0800

Ten Favorite Offbeat Musicals

By: Divine_Wino

Divine_Wino — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 12:14:30 -0800

Johnny Guitar is one of my favorite films of all time, "What's eatin' the fancy man?"

By: matteo

matteo — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 12:15:12 -0800

Ten Neglected SF Movies

By: billysumday

billysumday — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 12:22:31 -0800

What, no Shane? That is one eccentric western, my friends. Roger Ebert tries to define its oddness here. And no Logan's Run? If that's not an underrated/neglected Science Fiction film, then I'm a runner headed for Sanctuary! Hey-oh!

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 12:27:49 -0800

It's neglected for it's sheer awfulness. La Jetee -- now there's neglected!

By: Iridic

Iridic — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 12:36:53 -0800

That Zardoz?

By: oneirodynia

oneirodynia — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 12:38:26 -0800

I was kinda expecting El Topo and maybe The Left-Handed Gun on the Western list.

By: Thorzdad

Thorzdad — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 12:52:46 -0800

The Nutty Professor? Sci-Fi? W T F ?

By: destro

destro — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 12:53:13 -0800

Some good stuff here, but Metropolis is considered neglected? Even though it's always on the top 100 of all time lists. And AI??? Don't get me started on that one.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 12:57:36 -0800

Your favorite neglected sci-fi film sucks.

By: hal9k

hal9k — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 13:01:53 -0800

Uh... no Dark City? In either SF or Noir!

By: porpoise

porpoise — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 13:11:09 -0800

Harrison Bergeron Screamers ... they think I'm slow because I'm Canadian, eh?...

By: blucevalo

blucevalo — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 13:12:28 -0800

I like the Overlooked Noirs page, although the page design is pretty craptacular. Also, some of the films listed, including "The Narrow Margin," "Force of Evil," and "Scarlet Street," are hardly "overlooked," but are widely considered masterpieces and templates of the genre. I like his "SBA" ("should be available" on DVD) list. Not holding my breath that they'll make it onto DVD anytime soon, alas.

By: Ironmouth

Ironmouth — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 13:13:11 -0800

No The Quiet Earth?

By: sonofsamiam

sonofsamiam — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 13:15:16 -0800

Silent Running has stuck with me for years. Dark City++

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 13:33:03 -0800

I like the neglected SF list. I gotta second Dark City, The Quiet Earth and Silent Running. But Nemesis is easily the best cyberpunk genre movie I’ve ever seen. The stilted acting only adds to that. (ok, so the last 1/4 of the movie is beyond Adam West Batman campy, still...) Up there with Ghost in the Shell. There’s a lot to like in A.I. too. It gets blown, but there are bits.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 13:41:50 -0800

Jason X and Beastmaster II: Through the Portal of Time deserve special mention, particularly if you're high. Oh, and Akira.

By: quin

quin — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 13:55:24 -0800

Seconding Logan's Run. And Silent Running... And Jason X (/hangs head in shame). But I gotta throw down with Outland; the movie that showed us that space would be dirty and scary, paving the way for movies like Aliens. (It's weird, I feel like I just posted this...) Other honorable mentions should go to Buckaroo Banzai, Death Machine, hell even Pitch Black. But since they think that old movies are better than new movies, I give you the quintessential overlooked sci-fi film: Voyage de la lune.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 13:58:23 -0800

Let's not forget the dazzling looking, satisfyingly silly Green Slime.

By: quin

quin — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 13:59:45 -0800

Oh, and how can I have forgotton Hardware? Or Hell Comes to Frogtown? Classics.

By: SBMike

SBMike — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 14:03:22 -0800

The day the Earth Stood Still?

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 14:10:50 -0800

I actually like Hardware quite a lot, but it may be connected to finding Stacey Travis hot in it.

By: justkevin

justkevin — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 14:11:23 -0800

A.I. hasn't been neglected nearly enough.

By: ROU_Xenophobe

ROU_Xenophobe — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 14:22:23 -0800

Outland; the movie that showed us that space would be dirty and scary Didn't Alien do that two years earlier? Hell Comes to Frogtown is distinctly inferior to They Live. And no love for Barbarella or Saturn 3? Thems is actually not bad.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 14:48:16 -0800

Hardware - at the very least for Lemmy. Plus Gwar and Ministry. And creepy net-addicted sex troll voyeurs.

By: quin

quin — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 14:53:37 -0800

Didn't Alien do that two years earlier? I always found the first Alien film to be more claustrophobic than dirty: the Nostromo was pretty clean and organized until the chaos started, but I concede your point. On this subject Event Horizon also fits the bill. Hell Comes to Frogtown is distinctly inferior to They Live. No argument. But if I don't know that I would consider They Live an unappreciated film. They still make references to it today in modern culture. Rightly so, it's an inspired film.

By: cell divide

cell divide — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 14:54:25 -0800

I'm glad at least one other person out there liked, no loved, AI. I thought it was amazing.

By: The Great Big Mulp

The Great Big Mulp — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 16:12:53 -0800

Yay Zardoz! But I'd have put Repo Man on that list, I think. Even though it could be debated as not sci-fi.

By: mike_bling

mike_bling — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 16:25:47 -0800

Excellent Post. Rosenbaum is one of my all time favorites. He's got a weekly column in the Chicago Reader.

By: Grangousier

Grangousier — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 16:56:44 -0800

The Falls

By: Pinback

Pinback — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 17:24:21 -0800

A.I. was a fair enough film; overhyped, yes, but what shines through is Kubrick's pre-pre-production consideration and planning out. Right up to the point of the friendly smiling aliens. That's pure Spielbergian schlock. Love him or hate him for his other work, but you have to admit he destroyed a touching pathos-laden storyline for the sake of a signature "insert-standard-alien-sequence-here" ending. The film would have twice as good if it had just finished with a long, lingering, fading shot of the underwater tomb... Also n^thing the lack of "Dark City", "Silent Running", and yes, even "Pitch Black". (Though, if you're going to include that last, how about "Soldier" instead?). And, if the list can include "Je t’aime, je t’aime", why not "Luna e l'altra"? "Shane" isn't on the western list? Maybe not 'eccentric' exactly, but certainly a multi-layered and slightly askew western.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 17:37:37 -0800

Rosenbaum had me at this: For Damon Knight’s criticism, see his superb though sadly long out-of-print collection In Search of Wonder If you care at all about classic sf, go seek out that book. It taught me how good literary criticism could be when school was doing its best to make me hate the whole idea. Wow, The 10th Victim! Haven't thought of that in years. Nice to see Tarkovsky get his props, but the moment was tarnished by going on to see A.I. held up as a masterpiece. Ah well, no accounting for taste.

By: jiawen

jiawen — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 18:25:18 -0800

Right up to the point of the friendly smiling aliens. That's pure Spielbergian schlock. Love him or hate him for his other work, but you have to admit he destroyed a touching pathos-laden storyline for the sake of a signature "insert-standard-alien-sequence-here" ending. I used to think they were aliens, too. But they're not. They're the future logical extension of mecha. Think about this again: the ending is actually very very dark. And the segment that happens in the far future is necessary, because David is incredibly long-lived, so it is the only way to show the end of his life. One of my favorite articles on the movie is "The Sad Meaning of AI". It's quite good, and shows how a lot of the seeming goofy happiness is actually quite sad. Here's a specific thought that the article made me think of: how does the movie end? With Teddy, plopping down sadly. That is, it points out how David, in his quest to be loved, even if only for a day, has forgotten someone who has been with him his entire life. Teddy is left out, thrown away by David, just as David has been thrown away by all the humans in his life. AI almost seems to be saying that the quintessentially human act is to be selfish and cruel. Doesn't get much darker than that... There is definite Spielbergian schlock in there, but if you think about a bit longer, it's really a Kubrick movie through and through. A worthy successor to 2001, I think.

By: mediareport

mediareport — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 18:48:49 -0800

I went looking for Sam Fuller's Pickup on South Street on his neglected noir list and was delighted to find it. If you don't know that one, rent it soon. It's a lean, tight, nearly perfect noir thriller with a wonderful Oscar-nominated supporting performance by Thelma Ritter (Jimmy Stewart's gossipy nurse in Rear Window). It feels slightly dated, sure, but what 1953 film doesn't? For some reason every reviewer feels obligated to call out the Communist angle, as if it needs some sort of apology, but the whole thing hangs together beautifully, is shot beautifully and has an edgy smartness to it that is rare in 1950s films. If you don't know Sam Fuller's work, it's a great introduction. Thanks for this one, jonp72.

By: mediareport

mediareport — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 18:50:16 -0800

Oh, and Zardoz is an amazing, long-winded, astonishing and exasperating mess. Definitely worthy of inclusion on a neglected scifi film list.

By: Alvy Ampersand

Alvy Ampersand — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 19:12:25 -0800

No The Beguiled, aka the best movie Clint Eastwood and Don Siegel ever made?!?

By: oflinkey

oflinkey — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 19:23:31 -0800

Thank you, jiawen, for that link.

By: Sparx

Sparx — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 19:43:37 -0800

Right up to the point of the friendly smiling aliens. That's pure Spielbergian schlock. Love him or hate him for his other . Watch a little closer next time. Thwork, but you have to admit he destroyed a touching pathos-laden storyline for the sake of a signature "insert-standard-alien-sequence-here" ending. Nope - that's all Kubrick from pre-Spiellberg development. And they're not aliens, they're future robots/mecha. I have a sneaking suspicion that those people who like AI are the kind of people who would find ET too schmaltzy and Eyes Wide Shut too tedious, though they'd probably have some respect for the construction of each. I have no evidence for this suspicion, however. On preview: thanks, also Jiawen.

By: I Foody

I Foody — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 19:43:56 -0800

I've seen every movie on the western's list. Some of them were good.

By: quin

quin — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 22:35:21 -0800

Aww crap. I just remember one more, Seriously, Demolition Man should be in there, just for how precognitive it was. And it gave us the term MDK. which was turned into a great game. I mean honestly, a phenomenal game based on a term in a movie which it has nothing to do with? That has 'unappreciated' written all over it.

By: sonofsamiam

sonofsamiam — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 06:14:10 -0800

I have a sneaking suspicion that those people who like AI are the kind of people who would find ET too schmaltzy and Eyes Wide Shut too tedious I love all those movies.

By: my homunculus is drowning

my homunculus is drowning — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 07:44:15 -0800

Last Night.

By: my homunculus is drowning

my homunculus is drowning — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 07:46:19 -0800

sorry.

By: Grangousier

Grangousier — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 08:05:31 -0800

MDK (While we're on the subject of overlooked Science Fiction...)

By: Mr.Encyclopedia

Mr.Encyclopedia — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 08:20:07 -0800

The only list of neglected films Zardoz belongs on is a list of films that didn't get MST3K treatment but should have.

By: kenko

kenko — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 10:14:47 -0800

Magma never made a movie, though.

By: ROU_Xenophobe

ROU_Xenophobe — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 10:31:32 -0800

I have a sneaking suspicion that those people who like AI are the kind of people who would find ET too schmaltzy Really? I thought that AI was at least as schmaltzy and grossly, overtly manipulative as ET. I mean, it's the movie where someone weebles to the fake kid she's abandoning in the woods, "I'm sorry *weeble* I never told you *weeble cry* about the world *weeble weeble weeble*". And the whole Flesh Fair scene is completely over the top OMG LOOK AT THE BAD PEOPLE, just like the evil scientists with guns/flashlights.

By: Phantomx

Phantomx — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 12:33:26 -0800

*joins the small huddle of AI lovers* I've not quite analyzed Zardoz when I've seen it, but it has some captivating quality. But I can totally see why people hate it, and why most hate it on principle before they've even seen it.

By: Iridic

Iridic — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 12:48:47 -0800

I just saw Pickup on South Street last night on the advice of this post. A really good movie, although all the woman-smacking was off-putting. Thelma Ritter was phenomenal--a truly great performance.

By: jiawen

jiawen — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 16:53:46 -0800

Oflinkey and sparx, you're welcome. :)

By: Sparx

Sparx — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 19:17:49 -0800

I mean, it's the movie where someone weebles to the fake kid she's abandoning in the woods, "I'm sorry *weeble* I never told you *weeble cry* about the world *weeble weeble weeble*". And the whole Flesh Fair scene is completely over the top OMG LOOK AT THE BAD PEOPLE, just like the evil scientists with guns/flashlights. Getting abandoned in the woods is a fairly common fairytale trope - the interest lies in the fact that this woman volitionally bonded the AI to her and only then abandoned it. It would be like Elliot befriending ET and then calling in the FBI himself. It's what's going on in the subtext and backstory that makes AI less mawkish. The number of people who misinterpret the implications of the ending indicates many folks are expecting typical Spielbergian shmaltz and, finding something resembling it, fail to notice the darker undercurrents. All in my humble opinion, natch. The flesh fair, well, ok, I'll give you that - not the most subtle. But there had to be some nastiness or it just would have been David And Teddy's Excellent Walk in the Park. They weren't the villians of the piece, per se, merely a sideshow attraction on the way. Sometimes evil is merely banal. /ends AI defensiveness rant

By: ROU_Xenophobe

ROU_Xenophobe — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 22:54:54 -0800

It would be like Elliot befriending ET and then calling in the FBI himself. That doesn't make the line any less horrifically awful. Dialogue that bad is criminally punishable on more civilized planets. The dark undercurrents don't make sense to me. David doesn't and can't give a shit whether Teddy loves him, or at least loyally serves him, or not. Teddy could love him with the heat of a thousand suns and it wouldn't make the slightest difference to David, because David isn't programmed that way. All that David "wants" is for Mommy (and Daddy?) to be, or at least seem, happy with David. This would be tragic if David were alive and could somehow choose to see Teddy's love and respond, of it it were fear or something like that that were keeping him from doing so. But David isn't alive, even when the movie decides that I have to be emotionally manipulated into thinking he is because he's got big, sad eyes; David is a device. He's a goal-driven Eliza engine and whatever happens to him is no more tragic than what happens to a rock, to a Sim, or to that lamp in the Ikea commercial. I do like Jude Law's character in it, though. He gives a convincing portrayal of a fundamentally not-quite-sentient robot with real cognitive limits. You're welcome to like it, though. I myself quite like Deep Blue Sea and Saturn 3.

By: biffa

biffa — Sun, 10 Sep 2006 06:08:23 -0800

I have a sneaking suspicion that those people who like AI are the kind of people who would find ET too schmaltzy and Eyes Wide Shut too tedious I found ET too schmaltzy and Eyes Wide Shut too tedious but still thought AI was crap too. I also wondered what Metropolis was doing on the list, it's always being dug up to be digitised or rescored or whatever. Tends to make me think he wanted some old SF films on the list but didn't really know many. And Zardoz was shit.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Sun, 10 Sep 2006 06:19:09 -0800

I found ET too schmaltzy and Eyes Wide Shut too tedious but still thought AI was crap too. Me too. (Although if I were forced to watch one of those over again, I'd take AI in a second—it has enough striking imagery in amongst the crap to keep me from killing myself.)

By: jonp72

jonp72 — Sun, 10 Sep 2006 11:31:30 -0800

I knew the sci-fi list was going to get the most commentary when I posted it here. You can tell that Rosenbaum is a big fan of musicals, noirs, and westerns who shares a lot of tastes that other enthusiasts of those genres would share, but he is not as big fan of the fanboy canon of sci-fi films as he is of the occasional auteurs who have dabbled in that genre (Lang, Resnais, Tarkovsky etc.). As for my two cents, I think the biggest omission on the neglected sci-fi list is John Frankenheimer's Seconds. Possibly even more paranoid than the Manchurian Candidate, but it also features what might be the best performance of Rock Hudson's career. I think Rosenbaum loves AI (he put it on his list of the top 100 films of all time), because he likes the uneasy fusion between Kubrick and Spielberg's respective directorial visions, but that this is also the reason why a lot of people react as violently to the film as they do. I don't value AI nearly as high as Rosenbaum does, but I think he's on to something when he implies that the film will probably reevaluated much more highly in the future.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Mon, 11 Sep 2006 17:16:59 -0800

great reading thanks