That would solve everything!

September 19, 2006 9:34 AM

Pope asked to convert to Islam. Gaddafi's eldest son calls for the obvious solution.
posted by davy (72 comments total)

Sounds reasonable. I'm sure he'll consider it.
posted by gfrobe at 9:36 AM on September 19, 2006

What was the pope's logic in quoting that, by the way? From what I understand, he quoted it and then said he didn't agree with it, or found it "harsh"?

Oh well, now the muslims have a reason to celebrate Guy Fawlks day.
posted by delmoi at 9:38 AM on September 19, 2006

Well, he's already been a member of the Hitler Youth, so...
posted by Optamystic at 9:38 AM on September 19, 2006

"We say to the pope - whether you apologise or not is irrelevant, as apologies make no difference to us."
-- Mohammed Gaddafi
posted by inigo2 at 9:40 AM on September 19, 2006

This will end well.
posted by Bageena at 9:40 AM on September 19, 2006

Earth: This will end well.
posted by sonofsamiam at 9:42 AM on September 19, 2006

byzantines are so underrated.
posted by phaedon at 9:48 AM on September 19, 2006

The Pope cannot convert to Islam. The fate of the universe hangs in the balance. Consider how many facts are grounded in reality with the phrase, "Is the Pope a Catholic?" If the answer to that question becomes "no," prepare for a massive tear in the space-time continuum -- a world where rain falls up, circles are square, and girls wear pants.
posted by brain_drain at 9:50 AM on September 19, 2006 [9 favorites]

If the Pope converts to Islam, will he still shit in the woods?
posted by Faint of Butt at 9:51 AM on September 19, 2006 [1 favorite]

*realizes she is wearing pants*

brian_drain is the prophet of the new age!
posted by gomichild at 9:52 AM on September 19, 2006

Holy Father Dali Lama Rabbi Spirit Talker Mohammed Benedict XVI. That oughta cover it.
posted by StarForce5 at 9:53 AM on September 19, 2006

After all, Christ himself converted back in 1999.
posted by Iridic at 9:53 AM on September 19, 2006

No he quoted it, then in 'apology' #1 said he was just quoting something, and then in 'apology' #2 that he regretted that people had been offended.
I think the best thing, considering all the shit he keeps saying, would be if we just had him hung, drawn, and quartered - then everyone would be happy.
posted by Flashman at 9:55 AM on September 19, 2006

His Holiness will want to consult this page. Personally, I'm disappointed to discover he won't have to be circumcised (I had a little bet with myself as to how long the video would take to show up on MetaFilter) or change his name (Pope Abdullah I—can you dig it?).
posted by languagehat at 9:56 AM on September 19, 2006

For your reference:

• The Pope's original Regensburg speech
• 
  Andrew Brown's analysis on CommentIsFree.
• 
  Scott Adams: In response to being labeled evil and inhuman by a dead Byzantine emperor, a group of Muslims did what anyone would do in that situation: They firebombed two churches in the West Bank.

posted by brownpau at 9:56 AM on September 19, 2006

I've been wishing for W. to convert lately.
posted by leapingsheep at 9:56 AM on September 19, 2006

We will fight anyone who says we only use violence.
posted by crunchland at 9:57 AM on September 19, 2006

the new pope is a nazi tool who intentionally baits muslims because he's a stupid, evil-natured prick. how's that for analysis?
posted by saulgoodman at 10:00 AM on September 19, 2006 [1 favorite]

damn--didn't mean to actually post that.
posted by saulgoodman at 10:02 AM on September 19, 2006

WHy do people pay attention to what Qaddafi's son says?

Also:
Gaddafi
Kadhafi
Qaddafi

Can we get this shit straight?
posted by Mister_A at 10:05 AM on September 19, 2006

Islam is a Catholic Conspiracy, anyway.
posted by empath at 10:05 AM on September 19, 2006

Is this gonna be a good thread? Does a bear shit in the woods? Is the pope...

wait a second...
posted by jonmc at 10:06 AM on September 19, 2006

Languagehat: from your link...

Every person is born a Muslim because we are all created by God. Therefore, a preferred term would be reversion rather than conversion. A non-Muslim becomes a Muslim when he believes in his heart : "There is no God but Allah and I bear witness that Muhammad is His Messenger" Hence, belief in the Unity and Oneness of God and that Muhammad is his Messenger makes one a Muslim at heart.

Crap! I didn't even know I was a Muslim!
posted by crowman at 10:06 AM on September 19, 2006

It's a pity the Archbishop of Canterbury doesn't convert to Islam, then the motto of the Church of England could be 'There is no God but Allah, though Allah might himself be a metaphor'. It would lend the sort of circumspection that could benefit more world religions.
posted by biffa at 10:09 AM on September 19, 2006 [1 favorite]

I came back to find 19 comments in 30 minutes. Slackers!

Seriously, if the Pope converts to Islam during 2006 I will too. I'm already circumsized and have a Muslim name (I've often seen it transliterated as Daoud, Dawood, or Dawud), but I might have trouble giving up pork products.
posted by davy at 10:11 AM on September 19, 2006

Also: A short article celebrating silly religious placards.
posted by biffa at 10:12 AM on September 19, 2006

Meh. People like to b*tch and complain about that speech -- which, dumb though it was, was little in retrospect -- while no one seems to be upset at Benedict's continuing and active protection of those who have committed child abuse while wearing the Roman collar as well as those higher-ranking Church officials who protected the abusers.

It's sad to see that Islam sees the quoting of some ancient Catholic text -- again, stupid and pointless at it may have been -- as somehow more egregious than the sexual abuse of children. Sometimes I'm really left to wonder whether Islam's contribution to religion (as a concept) might not just be an increase in the irrationality that is religion.
posted by clevershark at 10:16 AM on September 19, 2006

If he converts to Islam, can he keep his hat?
posted by b1tr0t at 10:17 AM on September 19, 2006

Dude, he's just the pope. No one's infallable.
posted by XQUZYPHYR at 10:18 AM on September 19, 2006 [1 favorite]

No one's infallable.

Comedy genius or a savage indictment of the death of the spellchecker?
posted by biffa at 10:21 AM on September 19, 2006 [1 favorite]

I think the pope should convert to Islam; Muslims should convert to First Nations style peyote cults; Lutherans to Mel Gibson style no Vatican 2 wacko Catholicism; Mainline Catholics to off brand open source Scientology jazz; Quakers to Deists; Wiccans to CoE; Snake Handlers to Hinduism; Buddhists to that Anthroposophy horsecrap; Agnostics should be beheadded and fired into the sun and Athiests get a foxhole, a Capri-sun and the dubious mercy of a damp and infinite repose at the end of this vale of tears. This, however, is why I'm not in charge. There are many many things I do not admire about militant Islam, but their sheer ballsy intense shittalking is one thing I can really get behind.
posted by Divine_Wino at 10:24 AM on September 19, 2006 [4 favorites]

You'd think that people convinced that the phrase "there is no God but Allah" represents an absolute truth would be a little less insecure about what an old German guy and some cartoonists in Denmark have to say about their religion. Whatever. Peace be upon them, I guess.
posted by Hypnic jerk at 10:24 AM on September 19, 2006

So empath, Frank Herbert was being allegorical then?
posted by davy at 10:26 AM on September 19, 2006

"If he converts to Islam, can he keep his hat?"

I want his purse!
posted by davy at 10:26 AM on September 19, 2006

Mainline Catholics to off brand open source Scientology jazz

Does this mean I get to hang out in the Times Square subway station with a couple of tin cans attached to speedometer? Cause that'd be cool.
posted by jonmc at 10:29 AM on September 19, 2006

"Do not adjust your mind - the fault is with reality."
posted by davy at 10:30 AM on September 19, 2006

Does Islam have proscriptions against wearing red shoes?
posted by clevershark at 10:36 AM on September 19, 2006

"Crap! I didn't even know I was a Muslim!"

Me either. Dammit!

*declares jihad on the people who hid this information*
posted by mr_crash_davis at 10:37 AM on September 19, 2006

jonmc, the beauty of open source is that you can already do that.
posted by fidelity at 10:38 AM on September 19, 2006

(I keep checking for a MeTa callout over this; I congratulate y'all Mefites on its absence.)
posted by davy at 10:40 AM on September 19, 2006

Gaddafi
Kadhafi
Qaddafi

Can we get this shit straight?

Subeditorfilter: They're all correct. There are apparently 32 different ways of transliterating the name into English. Unless we agree on a MetaFilter Style Guide I think we'll have to get used to having our shit curly.
posted by randomination at 10:41 AM on September 19, 2006

Thanks brownpau for the link to the actual speech. I've been curious as to what the pope actually said and the context of the quotation. Really it was just an introduction to the discussion of whether or not God is above reason or if reason is a part of God's inherent nature. Probably not the best quote to use, but hey it got people talking about his speech.

But of course I'd rather trust the media to give me the real truth about why I should be outraged. Who needs primary sources and critical thinking these days?
posted by wilky at 10:49 AM on September 19, 2006

Gaddafi
Kadhafi
Qaddafi

Can we get this shit straight?

How about we just call him 'Shorty?'
posted by jonmc at 10:50 AM on September 19, 2006

But of course I'd rather trust the media to give me the real truth about why I should be outraged. Who needs primary sources and critical thinking these days?

Actually, I read the linked source material too, and where before I assumed it was an honest misunderstanding, now I'm pissed. Those statements were clearly calculated to inflame Muslim passions, from my perspective, and that's shameful for someone in the pope's position. I think I'm in the same camp as Dostoevsky now: He considered the pope to be an antichrist. (Not just this pope, but all of them, of course.)
posted by saulgoodman at 11:03 AM on September 19, 2006

From the hitlerjugend's 'apology': I am deeply sorry for the reactions in some countries to a few passages of my address at the University of Regensburg, which were considered offensive to the sensibility of Muslims.

Has their ever been a more mealy-mouthed apology (excluding W's, of course)? He's sorry for the reactions in some countries, not for his personal idiocy.
posted by signal at 11:03 AM on September 19, 2006

we keep on waiting waiting on the world to change one day our generation is gonna rule the population ...jm
posted by 404 Not Found at 11:06 AM on September 19, 2006

Have there ever been any Islamic popes?
posted by mazola at 11:13 AM on September 19, 2006

Just think, if the Catholics and Muslims kill each other off the world will be safe for the Zionists and their Southern Baptist friends. How to provoke war between say Brazil and Syria?
posted by davy at 11:27 AM on September 19, 2006

Dude, he's just the pope. No one's infallable.

Actually, he really is infallible, but only when he sits on his special Pope Chair!
posted by splice at 11:52 AM on September 19, 2006

Oh yes, I keep forgetting it's just the dreadful west and the evil, evil pope who are inflaming things. A lecture, taken out of context, should always result in riots, fire and gunshots. Of course, it's all clear now.
posted by theinsectsarewaiting at 12:03 PM on September 19, 2006

Despite the fact that I'm a thoroughly lapsed (in fact, atheist) catholic, gratuitous pope-bashing really irks me for some reason.
posted by empath at 12:12 PM on September 19, 2006

Oh yes, I keep forgetting it's just the dreadful west and the evil, evil pope

it's not "...just the..." anything. but the current pope is actually a former nazi, and yeah, i think he's a prick.

people get angry and smash things for all sorts of reasons; those reasons usually aren't good ones, but to claim world leaders aren't responsible for having a realistic understanding of the potential consequences of their public statements is just stupid. and only an idiot couldn't have foreseen that those comments would evoke a reaction from the more radical elements within the muslim community. so which way do you want it? is the current pope a tone-deaf idiot or an asshat?
posted by saulgoodman at 12:16 PM on September 19, 2006

Despite the fact that I'm a thoroughly lapsed (in fact, atheist) catholic,

I'm not even Catholic and yet it irked the hell out of me when Sinead O'Connor made that big dramatic gesture of tearing up the pope's picture on SNL. That said, the current pope is no John Paul. And the institution of the papacy, from my particular Christian perspective, is a heresy.
posted by saulgoodman at 12:20 PM on September 19, 2006

Oh come on. Regardless of how insensitive the comments may have been, and, in my opinion, they weren't - there was a clear context - that in no way justifies gunning down nuns and burning churches. The man was delivering a lecture, at a university. In the world I want to live in, that gives him the right to say pretty much whatever he pleases. Even if he is the Pope. If we start deciding what can and can't be said based on the willingness of a death cult (to be clear: I am not talking about the Muslim faith as a whole) to burn stuff down in response, we might as well just roll over now.
posted by theinsectsarewaiting at 12:40 PM on September 19, 2006

there was a clear context -

Yeah, there was a clear context: A speech about the folly of using violence to further religious goals. The quote about Mohammed was cited as an example in a speech about the evils of using violence to further spiritual goals.

which death cult are you talking about? the one "on our side" or the one "on theirs" because it seems to me we're dealing with two.
posted by saulgoodman at 12:45 PM on September 19, 2006

Can we get this shit straight?

See, if we'd all just start using Arabic, there would be no problem: it's القذافي — end of story.

gratuitous pope-bashing

I really don't think the word "gratuitous" is at all applicable here. If he stops acting like an idiot and the bashing continues, then complaints may commence.
posted by languagehat at 12:51 PM on September 19, 2006

Make sure you read the whole thing. The current excerpts doing the rounds and the argument back and forward make no sense. The Pope, it turns out, is a Platonist - keen to move Christianity back towards it's Greek root. Given that there's a substantial Platonic tradition in Islam as well, this might be a good foundation on which to build bridges. (I can hope).
posted by grahamwell at 12:51 PM on September 19, 2006

I'm talking about the one that straps bombs to their chests as a way to get into paradise. LaHaye's readers aren't quite there, wouldn't you agree? Now, forgive me if I'm wrong about this, but you seem to be suggesting that perhaps I have a side, and I do: reason. I am on the side of reason.
posted by theinsectsarewaiting at 12:53 PM on September 19, 2006

So is Benedict the Evil Overlord this week?

Actually, I agree with theinsectsarewaiting; I've been advocating Free Speech since before the Nazis wanted to march through Skokie. (And the rest of us are free to point and jeer.) But I also agree that such remarks are irresponsible for a "world leader" to make, especially a religious one; but then maybe God told him to create a few dozen more martyrs or something.

As for Benedict XVI's speech ostensibly about "the folly of using violence to further religious goals," here's yet another obvious retort.
posted by davy at 12:56 PM on September 19, 2006

Davy, the Wikipedia article goes on to say that Tu Quoque is a logical fallacy.
posted by Iridic at 1:02 PM on September 19, 2006

Well, insectsarewaiting, for starters, there was this guy, and this guy. and there's some reason to believe that the Christian zionist movement played a big role in sustaining political pressure to prevent a cease-fire in lebanon, so yeah, I'd say there are plenty of serious crazies on "our side" of the aisle, too.

So is Benedict the Evil Overlord this week?

Davy: Nah... He's no overlord. Just evil and ugly and a former Nazi.
posted by saulgoodman at 1:06 PM on September 19, 2006

(And the rest of us are free to point and jeer.)

*points and jeers*

hey, you invited me
posted by jonmc at 1:07 PM on September 19, 2006

"I'm talking about the one that straps bombs to their chests as a way to get into paradise. LaHaye's readers aren't quite there..."

Yet. Unless Saul's right.

And yes Iridic, I know that, but they're both still wrong.

(Hey jonmc, haven't I bragged about my tiny penis already?)
posted by davy at 1:08 PM on September 19, 2006

By the way, thanks to y'all fellow Mefites now I know what this FPP should've looked like.
posted by davy at 1:10 PM on September 19, 2006

And in any case, how many centuries have to pass before the church is allowed to suggest that violence is not a good way to spread your religion?
posted by empath at 1:10 PM on September 19, 2006

saulgoodman, I'm not quite clear on the point you're trying to make, I think you might be falling into Tu Quoque territory yourself. And, once again, I'm not on any side. I just want everyone to stop shooting and start talking. There's a good debate to be had between the two religions, perhaps even a compromise position, but right now, a faction on the Muslim side doesn't even understand the idea of debate -- they're in an all or nothing game. Anyway, interesting debate, but I've gotta go.
posted by theinsectsarewaiting at 1:13 PM on September 19, 2006

Given that there's a substantial Platonic tradition in Islam as well, this might be a good foundation on which to build bridges. (I can hope).

Grahamwell--I agree, that sounds like a nice direction for the dialog to go in, but it seems to me remarks like this do nothing to further positive movement in that direction: "But for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality."

theinsectsarewaiting: it's all good.
posted by saulgoodman at 1:29 PM on September 19, 2006

There's a philosophical tradition in Christianity as well as Islam that holds that His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of Rationality. I suspect (but am not sure) that the Pope means 'categories' in it's Kantian sense - he certainly attributes this view to Kant (although Rationality is not a Category). I don't think it's something to get upset about, you either believe it or you don't.

In rejecting this super-rationality and yet as head of a church which is based on some paradoxical challenges to reason (the bizzare and archaic doctrine of transubstantiation for example) I would have though him on thin ice, but then I am not a theologian.

William Rees-Mogg has a brief but welcome return to sanity on this issue.

Journalists should not criticise Pope Benedict XVI for his lecture at Regensburg. He has done only what every sub-editor on the Daily Mail does every day. Confronted with a long and closely written text, he inserted a lively quote to draw attention to the argument. We all do it. Sometimes the quote causes trouble, but more often it opens up an argument that is needed.

posted by grahamwell at 1:44 PM on September 19, 2006

The real problem is that we have a news media that is just all aflutter over any reason to report on what Muslims think and say.

Which means the media inevitably provides voice for the fringes and the freaks. Gaddafi's son?! Who cares what that little son of shit might have to say about anything?

I think we can safely file this in the same bucket as all the Pat Robertson drool: weird little fucks who need to have their microphone taken away.

Point of fact is that the Pope says stupid shit all the time. Just the other day he was slagging Canada. Know what we did? Pretty much ignored him: he's irrelevent.
posted by five fresh fish at 6:12 PM on September 19, 2006

gratuitous pope-bashing really irks me for some reason

Gratuitous bishop-bashing is still ok, I hope?

I'm talking about the one that straps bombs to their chests as a way to get into paradise. LaHaye's readers aren't quite there..

Suicide bombing is bad for business. Thank God the evangelicals are so enthralled to Mammon.
posted by eustacescrubb at 6:21 PM on September 19, 2006

"Gaddafi's son?! Who cares what that little son of shit might have to say about anything?"

Evidently a few Muslims do take such shit seriously. I doubt anybody really thinks Ratzinger will ever convert to Islam, but now when they shoot nuns in the back they can say "Whatshisface gave that Pope guy a chance to make good and they laughed at it! They laughed at Allah and his Prophet!"

Note to any Muslim extremists in the "Kentuckiana" area: the few nuns left around here are harmless old ladies, so come after me instead. I piss on your Prophet's mother's grave!
posted by davy at 7:20 PM on September 19, 2006

Evidently a few Christians take Phelps shit seriously, too. Do you also feel we should (a) give him broad media coverage and (b) worry about what the Christians are going to do?

Actually, yes, we should.

Guess I'm agreeing with you, though I'm not entirely sure where you were heading with your thoughts...
posted by five fresh fish at 8:08 PM on September 19, 2006