Comments on: You must not even think of settlement during the war

You must not even think of settlement during the war

exogenous — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:18:17 -0800

A POW takes a Rolex on credit: an amazing story told by the original documents.

By: quin

quin — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:24:27 -0800

Wow, vintage camera pr0n. So, how does one go about having a Rolex shipped to a POW camp while one is a prisoner? It seems like something that would have been confiscated at the gate.

By: amethysts

amethysts — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:26:53 -0800

what did they mean by settlement, and why must we not think of it during the war?

By: paulsc

paulsc — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:31:11 -0800

"... So, how does one go about having a Rolex shipped to a POW camp while one is a prisoner? ..." That was a time when the Geneva Conventions, and being a British officer, meant something. "what did they mean by settlement, and why must we not think of it during the war?" posted by amethysts at 11:26 PM EST on September 25 Settlement meant payment, and they deferred it (gave credit) by underscoring that as their terms in the order acknowledgement letter, noting (without overt comment) that he was ordering from a POW camp, behind German lines, and was a British officer. He wouldn't have been able to transfer money, but their vote for freedom in honoring his order was quietly noble, and it's what makes this a story.

By: paulsc

paulsc — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:32:49 -0800

Meant to say, "Great post, exogenous!" too. Best of the Web indeed.

By: Bighappyfunhouse

Bighappyfunhouse — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:35:16 -0800

Awesome

By: surplus

surplus — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:38:47 -0800

That watch has an amazing story. The family of that former POW (now deceased) should fetch a pretty penny for that Rolex on Ebay.

By: George_Spiggott

George_Spiggott — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:39:06 -0800

quin, civilized countries used to set great store by how they treated each other's officers. It was very deliberately done as a mark of how civilized you were -- and also as a mutual pact of good treatment of one's own officers. It is very unlikely that a watch like this would have been stolen or confiscated in any of the countries involved.

By: rob511

rob511 — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:46:41 -0800

Top that, Nordstrom!

By: mr.curmudgeon

mr.curmudgeon — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:47:07 -0800

"Then, after seven years, I was sent home to my family. And now, little man, I give the watch to you."

By: Heywood Mogroot

Heywood Mogroot — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:47:40 -0800

It is very unlikely that a watch like this would have been stolen or confiscated in any of the countries involved. The German army was VERY well disciplined in matters such as these (vis-a-vis the Western powers). The Amis, not so much.

By: trigonometry

trigonometry — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:50:29 -0800

George_Spiggott and quin: as an addendum to the comment on civility and officers' codes in WWII (and WWI), I'll also add the qualifier that such rules of respect and fair treatment did not apply to officers of peoples considered lower. Had the officer in question been Russian (or of Russian extraction) the story would have been very different. Well, besides being in Russian, that is... As for the original post, thank you--this was a real treat to see. I'm now dying to find out how it will do on the auction block, though in the family's place I"m not sure I could bear to part with it.

By: stammer

stammer — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:50:30 -0800

"We are happy that at last the British authorities have removed the opposition which up to the present had prevented our friends to liquidate their debt." Corporate boilerplate: they don't make it like they used to.

By: Samuel Farrow

Samuel Farrow — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:54:29 -0800

What a neat little post and story.

By: Effigy2000

Effigy2000 — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 20:59:55 -0800

"So, how does one go about having a Rolex shipped to a POW camp while one is a prisoner? It seems like something that would have been confiscated at the gate." posted by quin at 2:24 PM AEST on September 26 My heritage is German and so of course whenever I visited my friend's house (who is of British descent) while his grandfather (who fought in WW2) was there, inevitably the war stories would be brought out. He told me that the older German officers were real gentlemen and it was mostly only the younger officers who had been indoctrinated who were the the real arseholes. The older officers hated the war (and in many cases, Hitler too) just as much as the Brits did and wanted it to end as soon as possible so they could go home and be with their families. One of the most fascinating stories he told me was about the time he was a POW in a German prison camp. He and his buddies were celebrating one of his friend's birthday in their cabin and they were being quiet about it to make sure they weren't hard by any of the younger guards. Nonetheless, they were heard but it was an older guard who opened the door and busted them. He asked them what was going on and my friend's grandfather told him they were celebrating his friend's birthday. The older guard looked around, smiled, and from his coat pocket he pulled a cigar case. He took out the last cigar and offered it to the birthday boy, and wished him a happy birthday. And then he left. Apparently a few of the other guards also came later and offered him some cigarettes and alcohol as a birthday gift. So how does one get a Rolex shipped to them in a WW2 POW camp without it being confiscated at the gate? Easy. Back then, things like honour, the rule of law and things like the Geneva Convention still meant something to army officers. Being on the opposite side of a conflict didn't mean being an arsehole and it didn't mean torturing someone in secret. It meant remembering that the other guy was a human being too, and it meant having a break on Christmas Day and sharing a smoke with the guy who would later be forced by orders to try and kill you. You wouldn't get a Rolex through to someone in Gitmo because nowadays the sort of behaviour these documents in the post aluder to are a long forgotten, almost quaint tradition. And that, truly, is a sad thing. Thanks for the post exogenus. It's a good `un.

By: Effigy2000

Effigy2000 — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 21:00:54 -0800

* weren't heard

By: George_Spiggott

George_Spiggott — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 21:17:33 -0800

I don't know how much of this I'm getting from fictionalizations vs. real history, but I'm under the impression that Germany and England both had the tradition where officers were considered to be of a certain class. This had gone into decline under the Nazis but there were, as Effigy2000 observes, still many officers about -- possibly disproportionately on prison duty given their advancing years -- from the older tradition. The ruling class of both countries may have felt they had more in common with their opposite numbers than with the grunts of their own military. This would also help explain why this sort of courtesy was not extended to Russians, who had long since extirpated their ruling class.

By: hodyoaten

hodyoaten — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 21:30:06 -0800

Great post! How much is this Rolex price in today's dollars or pounds? Too bad those background appear to be of Vietnam.

By: mrbill

mrbill — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 21:31:12 -0800

hodyoaten: from the forum linked, 250 GBP then is around 665 GBP now (although the watch is worth far, far more than that).

By: George_Spiggott

George_Spiggott — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 21:38:54 -0800

and it meant having a break on Christmas Day and sharing a smoke with the guy who would later be forced by orders to try and kill you Not to take issue with your superb comment, but the Christmas Truce was WWI, and military leaders have by and large been pretty careful not to let it happen again.

By: paulsc

paulsc — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 21:42:07 -0800

I love the tenor of the correspondence detailed in this post! So much is written, between the lines, and yet is still voiced in the simple mechanisms of war time letters, and typewriters. "... you must not even think of settlement during the war..." It was wartime, April 1943. Switzerland was officially neutral, and there was no guarantee of the man ordering surviving the war. There was no system of international credit, except interbank acceptances and letters of credit, and the Swiss were notably not a credit issuing society. And yet, Wilsdorf writes immediately, as if the willingness for business as usual marked the civilized from the madmen. And drops his Swiss reserve to underline his terms, for emphasis. "As we have now a large number of orders in hand for officers, there will be some unavoidable delay in the execution of your order, but we will do the best we can for you." Meaning, "You are not alone, and we are proceeding with our normal manufacturing, as best we can, despite all wartime difficulties." Must have been extremely heartening for a man trying to keep a stiff upper lip, in the belly of the beast, more than a year before D-Day.

By: Krrrlson

Krrrlson — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 21:51:47 -0800

By: quin

quin — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 21:52:25 -0800

Fantastic tale Effigy2000, thanks for that. I guess what I find weird here, and forgive me if this is considered a Godwin (though in this thread, that seems unlikely) is that we have Nazis (freakin' Nazis) dealing with a level of honor that we find unusual in our world today. How sad a condemnation is that for our state of affairs today?

By: LilBucner

LilBucner — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 21:56:22 -0800

The way your dad looked at it, this watch was your birthright. He'd be damned if any of the slopes were gonna get their greasy yellow hands on his boy's birthright. So he hid it in the one place he knew he could hide something: his ass. Five long years, he wore this watch up his ass. Then when he died of dysentery, he gave me the watch. I hid this uncomfortable piece of metal up my ass for two years. Then, after seven years, I was sent home to my family. And now, little man, I give the watch to you.

By: LilBucner

LilBucner — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:00:32 -0800

(on preview: curmudgeon beat me to it, by over an hour. d'oh!)

By: Tiresias

Tiresias — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:10:12 -0800

As a long time reader but brand new poster (in fact, I just registered this account for the specific purpose of making this comment) I'd like to say that it's posts like this that keep me coming back to the Blue; these small, intricate stories --- barely more than anecdote --- that, somehow, lay bare the bones of our time as clearly as an x-ray. Great find.

By: dreamsign

dreamsign — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:13:56 -0800

As George_Spiggott notes, this kind of treatment was considered how civilized nations behaved, full-stop. paulsc mentions the Geneva Conventions. The 1949 Convention III on POW's is but a continuation of the 1929 Convention on the same topic, which had 97 articles covering such issues as: Art. 21. At the commencement of hostilities, belligerents shall be required reciprocally to inform each other of the titles and ranks in use in their respective armed forces, with the view of ensuring equality of treatment between the corresponding ranks of officers and persons of equivalent status. Officers and persons of equivalent status who are prisoners of war shall be treated with due regard to their rank and age. Art. 22. ... Officers and persons of equivalent status shall procure their food and clothing from the pay to be paid to them by the detaining Power. The management of a mess by officers themselves shall be facilitated in every way. and regarding personal possessions: Art. 24. At the commencement of hostilities, belligerents shall determine by common accord the maximum amount of cash which prisoners of war of various ranks and categories shall be permitted to retain in their possession. Any excess withdrawn or withheld from a prisoner, and any deposit of money effected by him, shall be carried to his account, and may not be converted into another currency without his consent. The credit balances of their accounts shall be paid to the prisoners of war at the end of their captivity. During the continuance of the latter, facilities shall be accorded to them for the transfer of these amounts, wholly or in part, to banks or private individuals in their country of origin. Post WWII it gets even more elaborate, with the 1949 Conv III stipulating that the camp canteen must be priced at fair market value, be run by the prisoners with profits going to their well-being, etc, etc.. Bit of a far cry from today, no?

By: Afroblanco

Afroblanco — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:20:24 -0800

I remember reading somewhere that the Nazis had more respect for the British then the other allied powers because the British royalty was German-descended. I mean, obviously the Nazis' sense of "honor" was very selective - I doubt that many Rolexes made their way to Auschwitz.

By: rolypolyman

rolypolyman — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:23:17 -0800

we have Nazis (freakin' Nazis) dealing with a level of honor that we find unusual in our world today. What quin said. What the hell has happened?

By: rolypolyman

rolypolyman — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:23:58 -0800

ok... and what afroblanco said

By: Falconetti

Falconetti — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:31:44 -0800

civilized countries used to set great store by how they treated each other's officers Not to beat a dead horse, but really, this was only true for a select few Western European nations and only if you were a privileged (i.e. born rich) officer. As was pointed out above, this treatment would not be given to Russian officers and god forbid you were from somewhere outside Europe. While this is a more preferable way to treat one's enemies in times of war, let's not pretend that it was anything more than what it was: nice treatment for (a few) rich white people. The great film The Rules of the Game explores this dynamic. Otherwise, awesome post. Thank you.

By: Falconetti

Falconetti — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:32:53 -0800

Oops, I meant "The Grand Illusion" not "The Rules of the Game." How embarrassing.

By: omarr

omarr — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:54:47 -0800

Wow, amazing story and pictures. Like Tiresias said, these are the kinds of posts I love to see on MeFi. For those asking about the value, they seem to go for a fair bit of money.

By: afu

afu — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 22:59:11 -0800

Reminds me of the British POWs in Slaughter House 5 who set up a play and party for the newly arrived American POWs and then are disappointed to learn they are merely enlisted men. Great post.

By: b1tr0t

b1tr0t — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 23:00:27 -0800

You wouldn't get a Rolex through to someone in Gitmo because nowadays the sort of behaviour these documents in the post aluder to are a long forgotten, almost quaint tradition. And that, truly, is a sad thing. Is there any reason to belive that there are any foreign officers at Gitmo? I thought the whole point of the place was to hold terror suspects indefinitely - people who flaunt honored military tradition, dress as civilians, and blow other civilans up in order to get on TV. Saddam seems to have played along with the whole spider-hold charade, and it seems like he was treated decently (according to the Esquire article) as a result.

By: Wolof

Wolof — Mon, 25 Sep 2006 23:20:40 -0800

Oops, I meant "The Grand Illusion" not "The Rules of the Game." Well, La Règle du jeu is about class too!

By: biffa

biffa — Tue, 26 Sep 2006 00:31:58 -0800

The prisoner's UK address is given as Eaton Road, if that was anywhere near where the modern location is, then by 1943 it has probably been bombed flat - central Coventry was destroyed in 1940. Did he have a place to go back to? As an aside, Eaton Road is where i_cola and I took amberglow for a curry on his UK tour a couple of years ago.

By: omarr

omarr — Tue, 26 Sep 2006 00:54:40 -0800

biffa, note that the letters to that address were sent in 1946. Perhaps by that point it had been rebuilt?

By: biffa

biffa — Tue, 26 Sep 2006 02:05:07 -0800

Perhaps, but I'm not sure there's any housing post-war there. It's mostly office blocks and a few shops, though that could have changed since the war, I don't know whether they would have put temporary housing up then pulled it down, quite possibly as people had to have somewhere to live. Anyway, this motivated me to find this page, which has photos of the very nearby Coventry railway station as it was in 1903 then after being bombed in 1940. Will have another look to see if there's anything after that for Eaton Road.

By: stupidsexyFlanders

stupidsexyFlanders — Tue, 26 Sep 2006 02:05:47 -0800

So...Hogan's Heroes was a documentary?

By: biffa

biffa — Tue, 26 Sep 2006 02:10:36 -0800

Ok, happy now, I think Eaton Road was a fair bit longer even post war but was mostly knocked down at some point between 1951 and 1968 and is currently a ring road around the city centre. Some maps of the development of the city centre here, Eaton Road at bottom left. Quite possibly I've driven over the site of this chap's house hundreds of times.

By: antifuse

antifuse — Tue, 26 Sep 2006 02:40:58 -0800

Fantastic story. Wonderful pictures of that watch, too. No comment on the "lamentable state of how we treat our enemies these days", as it's already been beaten into the ground that the Nazis only really treated British officers this way.

By: pax digita

pax digita — Tue, 26 Sep 2006 05:13:54 -0800

The heretofore customary honorable treatment of the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe toward captured Allied officers is what made the aftermath of "The Great Escape" so shocking. Nobody, especially the regular German armed forces, would've thought that the Gestapo would've executed fifty POWs for escaping.

By: slixtream

slixtream — Tue, 26 Sep 2006 05:31:38 -0800

Thanks for a great post exogenous.

By: Smedleyman

Smedleyman — Tue, 26 Sep 2006 06:17:56 -0800

Very cool story and pics exogenous.

By: IndigoJones

IndigoJones — Tue, 26 Sep 2006 06:26:25 -0800

we have Nazis (freakin' Nazis) dealing with a level of honor that we find unusual in our world today. Just a reminder - not all Wehrmacht were Nazis. Not all Nazis were Wehrmacht. Pity it left the family, though.

By: wilsona

wilsona — Tue, 26 Sep 2006 07:35:16 -0800

Just a reminder - not all Wehrmacht were Nazis. Not all Nazis were Wehrmacht. Indeed, Rommel (one of the greats in the WWII army) disliked the Nazis. His son wanted to join the Waffen-SS (sort of the military wing of the Nazi party) because they were more prestigious and were much better equipped than regular army (Heer, in German). Rommel disallowed it, thinking that the behaviors of the SS was nothing to be associated with. Those interested can read about it in The Rommel Papers, a compilation of Rommel's writings from the invasion of France, to Africa, to Normandy and his execution by the Nazis. I'd quote, but it's at home.

By: Amanojaku

Amanojaku — Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:57:50 -0800

And people without heads don't even need Rolexes. Yeah, I can still remember when they brutally decapitated Jessica Lynch.

By: ericb

ericb — Tue, 26 Sep 2006 16:09:09 -0800

That watch has an amazing story. The family of that former POW (now deceased) should fetch a pretty penny for that Rolex on Ebay. If that watch were in my family, no one would ever sell it. A keepsake with that story behind it is worth more than "green money."

By: IndigoJones

IndigoJones — Tue, 26 Sep 2006 18:28:30 -0800

Bonham's tells us a little more about the whole POW watch thing. Good on Mr. Wilfsdorf, who wrote a bunch of these letters. (Curious that the brought-from-home watches were confiscated but the new Rolexes were thought copacetic.) Anyway, here's hoping he at least broke even on the deals. Never knew any of this before, exogeneous, thank you. I hereby officially renounce my counter-snob disdain of Rolexes. Well, old Rolexes, at any rate.

By: IndigoJones

IndigoJones — Tue, 26 Sep 2006 18:35:14 -0800

Wilsdorf & exogenous. Sorry about that.

By: Mental Wimp

Mental Wimp — Tue, 26 Sep 2006 19:52:02 -0800

*Don't mention the war*

By: Muirwylde

Muirwylde — Tue, 26 Sep 2006 20:24:43 -0800

Yes, this was a time when ((some) men were gentleman. My dad recounted that at on Christmas Day during the Second World War, German soldiers and Bristish soldiers exchanged rations, chocolate and cigarettes in the trenches across 'the line' then resumed fighting the next day. It was a time of honor, courage and stoicism when men fought eye to eye... unlike the cowardly little fucks we are dealing with today.

By: ericb

ericb — Tue, 26 Sep 2006 20:36:44 -0800

My dad recounted that at on Christmas Day during the Second World War Also -- Joyeux Noël

"On Christmas Eve, 1914, three groups of soldiers fighting in the trenches of France lay down their rifles and celebrate together in the barren stretch of No Man's Land that separates them. Beginning with an exchange of songs, the French, German, and Scottish soldiers search for a way to overcome--if only briefly--the conflict that divides them."

By: ericb

ericb — Tue, 26 Sep 2006 20:42:20 -0800

Joyeux Noël/Merrry Christmas -- Best Foreign Language Film 2006.

"This movie is inspired by a true story, which occurred in the trenches of the World War I battlefield on Christmas Eve in 1914. When war breaks out in the lull of summer 1914, it surprises and pulls millions of men in its wake. Christmas arrives, with its snow and multitude of family and army presents. But the surprise won't come from inside the generous parcels which lie in the French, Scottish, and German trenches. That night, a momentous event will turn the destinies of four characters: an Anglican priest, a French lieutenant, an exceptional German tenor and the one he loves, a soprano and singing partner. During this Christmas Eve, the unthinkable happens: soldiers come out of their trenches, leaving their rifles behind to shake hands with the enemy."

By: witchstone

witchstone — Wed, 27 Sep 2006 10:39:42 -0800

Am I the only one who thinks it's weird that a POW was ordering a Rolex?

By: Krrrlson

Krrrlson — Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:19:18 -0800

Yeah, I can still remember when they brutally decapitated Jessica Lynch. Evidently this is just one of the many problems with your memory.

By: sonofsamiam

sonofsamiam — Wed, 27 Sep 2006 11:22:35 -0800

NICE COMBACK DUDE! FACE!

By: Amanojaku

Amanojaku — Thu, 28 Sep 2006 14:13:32 -0800

Evidently this is just one of the many problems with your memory. Uh-huh. I'll let you work out how that doesn't salvage the point you thought you were making.

By: Krrrlson

Krrrlson — Fri, 29 Sep 2006 11:15:17 -0800

Just as I'll let you discover for yourself that the only places where your nonsensical ramblings qualify as a rebuttal are the internet and political office.

By: Amanojaku

Amanojaku — Fri, 29 Sep 2006 13:17:59 -0800

Just as I'll let you discover for yourself that the only places where your nonsensical ramblings qualify as a rebuttal are the internet and political office. Since we're actually on the internet, that works out pretty neatly for me, doesn't it?

By: Krrrlson

Krrrlson — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 22:29:58 -0800

Yes, you are well on your way to making your mark in the world.