Comments on: Pentecostal bedlam

Pentecostal bedlam

Brian B. — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 11:37:09 -0800

Pentecostals are a lively group. According to some, they rank among the fastest growing religions in the world, especially among the poor. A map shows their concentrations in America.

By: wfc123

wfc123 — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 12:04:39 -0800

My sister and her family are Pentecostal. It's a true cult. Cult or not, if the mainstream U.S. media can brainwash the middle class into becoming Republicans (and thereby consistently vote against their best interests), then this video is not a real revelation (pardon th pun).

By: Artw

Artw — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 12:08:23 -0800

Which comes first, poverty or the death of rational thought?

By: SBMike

SBMike — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 12:09:43 -0800

Which comes first, poverty or the death of rational thought? I think they both decay incrementally in a perverse feedback loop.

By: Laugh_track

Laugh_track — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 12:20:01 -0800

Which comes first, poverty or the death of rational thought? I know, right?? I was at my yacht club last Sunday, and we raised that very question over a bottle of champagne. The debate was so heated, I accidentally dropped my monocle in my champagne glass! Good thing I wasn't wearing my hand-made Italian suit that day, or I would have had to buy another one.

By: Alvy Ampersand

Alvy Ampersand — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 12:23:56 -0800

I'm guessing too much sugar in the Kool-Aid.

By: Alvy Ampersand

Alvy Ampersand — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 12:24:32 -0800

But that redhead was hawt!!!

By: Mr_Zero

Mr_Zero — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 12:25:20 -0800

I find the map depressing. Has anyone seen numbers on how fast the non-religous groups are growing?

By: Artw

Artw — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 12:26:27 -0800

Laugh_track; Heh. Are you insinuating that i'm a faux elitist?

By: Mr_Zero

Mr_Zero — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 12:32:52 -0800

I bet the video went down something like this. Everyone in the reserved seating showed up an hour early and for punch and a *special* reserved seating brownie.

By: papakwanz

papakwanz — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 12:34:01 -0800

Surprising how much of it is concentrated in the northwest and how little was in the north-midwest. To me at least.

By: four panels

four panels — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 12:44:03 -0800

Viruses of the Mind by Richard Dawkins.

By: Brian B.

Brian B. — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 12:44:17 -0800

The idea that a religion can successfully proselyte among the poor with a message of getting rich by faith is sociologically noteworthy, because it naturally feeds at the bottom as its mode of recruitment. As wealth is elusive, the disappointment forces the convert into a state of cognitive dissonance, which is believed by many to tbe source of all proselytizing--in an effort to convince themselves by convincing others. A recipe for sectarian success. As far as Christian doctrine is concerned, I'm not so sure it began any differently, because so many parables are based on economic symbolism.

By: MrLint

MrLint — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 12:44:57 -0800

ok that video is jsut creepy as hell

By: whatzit

whatzit — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 12:45:55 -0800

...a lively group: Certainly less stoic than other Christian faiths, but not all Pentecostal and related faiths are snake-handling charismatics. poverty or the death of rational thought? I can't speak for the US, but there's been significant research on the growth of Pentecostalism in Brazil, where, particularly in urban lower-income areas, it is the fastest growing religion. This is amazing considering the strength that the Catholic church has historically held in Brazilian society, politics, and life. One of the major contributing factors, it was found, is that the Pentecostals were very active in the communities and supporting the growth and development of their people. Incoming Pentecostal churches and organizations often meant nutritional or educational programs, employment and training services, and even financing programs. Community members were eligible whether or not they adhered to the Pentecostal faith, but as a result of their direct and open-ended involvement with the community, many people eventually find themselves part of the congregration. (Catholic services were found, in contrast, to be more frequently limited to people within the faith and were also based more on donations to the poor rather than empowerment.) There's a great book on this topic, Coping with Poverty: Pentecostals and Christian Base Communities in Brazil, by C.L. Mariz, which I'd recommend to anyone interested in more details about the above.

By: leftcoastbob

leftcoastbob — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 13:07:05 -0800

I've done magic mushrooms before but didn't realize how much the experience had in common with the Pentacostals.

By: orthogonality

orthogonality — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 13:21:59 -0800

What has any of this to do with Jesus preaching the Beatitudes? They act like a troop of chimpanzees, hooting and howling and writhing about -- seems great evidence for evolution, and nothing to do with the dignity of man or the soul.

By: dov3

dov3 — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 13:24:18 -0800

That must've been a heck of a joke!

By: psmealey

psmealey — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 13:26:41 -0800

A laugh track is never a positive enhancement.

By: carsonb

carsonb — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 13:32:50 -0800

you know, when he swung his arm out and everybody fell down into their chairs, "drunk"

By: The Great Big Mulp

The Great Big Mulp — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 13:38:31 -0800

On the video: Having been through the gamut of these experiences, from babbling incoherently to spontaneously falling over, I can say there is definitely something to it, something quite similar to the euphoria sometimes experienced on hallucingens. Also, these sorts of things tend to happen after hours of singing, generally something very repetative, making it a sort of mass hypnosis. The closest experiences I've found since those days have been at trance parties: the repetative music along with the presence of large quantities of hallucinogens creates the same sort of feeling of one-ness with everyone else present. These days, I'm all set with the "mass hypnosis" thing.

By: The Great Big Mulp

The Great Big Mulp — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 13:38:57 -0800

And repetative music.

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 13:40:56 -0800

They act like a troop of chimpanzees, hooting and howling and writhing about they call it "being slain in the spirit by the holy ghost" or "taking the holy ghost" and they take it quite seriously ... it's a sign that one has been not just saved, but "annointed" by god they were an insular and impoverished sect of people, with very stringent rules ... women can't wear make up or slacks ... families can't have tvs ... they were one of the big practictioners of cultural seperatism in the past 20 years they have become more involved, more affluent and much less strict about "mingling one's affairs with the unbelievers" and "yoking christ with belial" they're really just like any other group of people ... really ... but i have noticed one thing ... when they turn bad, they REALLY turn bad

By: nola

nola — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 13:41:21 -0800

holy crap carsonb, thats super.

By: chimaera

chimaera — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 13:43:08 -0800

self-hypnosis.

By: Laugh_track

Laugh_track — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 13:45:06 -0800

What has any of this to do with Jesus preaching the Beatitudes? I think if we knew the answer to that, we would understand Christianity a lot better. The earliest sources we have (Pauline epistles) suggest that the Pentecostals are probably the best modern-day analogue to what the Christian church was actually like at its inception.

By: Captaintripps

Captaintripps — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 13:45:33 -0800

It's better than doing it in Klingon.

By: speug

speug — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 13:46:41 -0800

The video makes no sense whatsoever... (Perhaps I forgot to take my 'reality disconnect' pill this morning.) Interesting map though. Has anybody had a chance to review the raw data? The numbers look a bit high...

By: borkingchikapa

borkingchikapa — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 14:03:56 -0800

So wait, you're saying that people who believe in a god are crazy?

By: orange swan

orange swan — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 14:11:26 -0800

A friend of mine who is a Christian (a conservative Mennonite actually) tells me that Pentecostal churches often serve as the gateway to Christianity. People convert there, but in six months or a year they go shopping for another denomination. Her husband (who has a completely secular family background) did that himself. It is my experience that those who remain Pentecostals aren't generally very intelligent or well-educated. Though I am now an agnostic, I grew up in a more intellectually oriented kind of church and was always very repelled by the the emotional and facile atmosphere in the Pentecostal churches I visited. The pastor would stride around the platform yelling, "I'm tired of getting my can kicked around by the devil!" and other such slogans repeatedly, and I would think, "If you don't think of something interesting to say SOON, I shall join Satan in that activity."

By: leftcoastbob

leftcoastbob — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 14:12:19 -0800

"yoking christ with belial" Thanks, pyramid termite, "belial" is my new word of the day. From Wikipedia: uncircumcised heathens are considered to be "sons of Belial".

By: heatherann

heatherann — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 14:13:58 -0800

Has anyone done much real investigation into this? I used to go to churches that were into this type of stuff, and I've seen it tons of times, enough times to know that it's not drugs like some people here are hypothesizing. I could see the group hypnosis angle... a good worship leader/preacher knows exactly when and how to create opportunity for these types of experiences with music and certain phrases in a certain tone of voice at specific times. I would imagine that motivational speakers rely on a lot of the same devices. Does anyone know if there's anyone doing research into how this works?

By: quonsar

quonsar — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 14:22:02 -0800

metafilter: sitting in the seat of mockers

By: psmealey

psmealey — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 14:25:00 -0800

Well, whatever floats your boat, I guess. That all just looks over the top creepy to me, but then I used to go Killing Joke shows with warpaint on and bump up against other folks in the mosh pit. I'm sure that would look equally strange, and perhaps scary to them.

By: whatzit

whatzit — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 14:32:33 -0800

heatherann: can you be more specific about what aspect you're interested in hearing about? I can point you to quite a few scholarly books and/or peer-reviewed articles on some of the issues raised in this thread... (The short answer is, yes, there's research. Most of it anthropological, but there are tie-ins with a lot of other disciplines, as well.)

By: quonsar

quonsar — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 14:36:29 -0800

From Wikipedia: uncircumcised heathens are considered to be "sons of Belial". posted by leftcoastbob at 5:12 PM EST on October 1 [+] [!] actually, no. deceptive editing on leftcoastbob's part completely distorts what wikipedia actually says to make it seem as if all pentecostals consider uncircumcised heathens to be "sons of Belial". from wikipedia: Belial (also Belhor, Baalial, Beliar, Beliall, Beliel; from Hebrew Bliyaal בליעל) is an evil being in Hebrew mythology. The name means "without worth". In the Book of Jubilees, uncircumcised heathens are called "sons of Belial". the book of jubilees is a non-canonical hebrew document. but hey, good try bob. it must be the republican in you.

By: Twang

Twang — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 14:51:54 -0800

Phew. Thank Knob for Richard Dawson.

By: jack_mo

jack_mo — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 14:56:20 -0800

Does anyone know if there's anyone doing research into how this works? This article has references to various studies and is an interesting overview of glossolalia. It concludes that glossolalia should be considered a learned behaviour, rather than being down to hypnosis or trance states (is that fancy scientist talk for 'they're all totally faking it'?). Something I found fascinating was the fact that folk who speak in tongues often do so in private as well as at religious gatherings.

By: Biblio

Biblio — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 14:58:03 -0800

There is a woman in my very middle of the road Episcopal parish who likes to get all Pentecostal-like during our services. She starts whooping and hollering and getting slain in the spirit must to the consternation of the little old church ladies and the Sunday School kids. Trust me, it's not our preacher hypnotizing her! I think it's more a case of "look at me!"

By: Brian B.

Brian B. — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 14:58:11 -0800

Of course, there are antecedents to Protestant religious frenzy, specifically Shakerism. and its offshoots.

By: jack_mo

jack_mo — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 15:00:29 -0800

On not preview: That all just looks over the top creepy to me, but then I used to go Killing Joke shows with warpaint on and bump up against other folks in the mosh pit. I think that's the root of it all, really: people tend to really, really like to get fucked up, whether that's gibbering in church, jumping around to loud music, smoking crack, bungee jumping...

By: porpoise

porpoise — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 15:10:40 -0800

... learned behavior... My take on it is that it isn't so much "faking" it, but it's a behavior that has been associated with some emotional/mental state. Perhaps something similar to how someone isn't naturally a "moaner" in bed, then after watching some porn then get the notion that it's "normal" to be vocal in a particular way during sex, then just starts moaning and thus "learned" the behavior of moaning.

By: vertriebskonzept

vertriebskonzept — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 15:22:51 -0800

It's probably very relaxing if you do this just for fun. But the sad part is that they promote superstition.

By: GrammarMoses

GrammarMoses — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 15:30:43 -0800

On that map showing the density of Pentacostals (heh), the lowest three percentage ranges, corresponding to shades of light pink, are quite small (0%, 0.1 - 2.4%, 2.5 - 6%). But red areas correspond to a rather large range (6.1 to 20.6%) which makes the map misleading. What if most of these red areas really only have, say, 7 or 8%? (A few places obviously have many more, hence the range.) A handy way to make it look like your formerly declasse denomination is strong and growing stronger, methinks.

By: GrammarMoses

GrammarMoses — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 15:37:29 -0800

Excuse me, "déclassé."

By: leftcoastbob

leftcoastbob — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 15:45:18 -0800

actually, no. deceptive editing on leftcoastbob's part completely distorts what wikipedia actually says to make it seem as if all pentecostals consider uncircumcised heathens to be "sons of Belial". from wikipedia: Belial (also Belhor, Baalial, Beliar, Beliall, Beliel; from Hebrew Bliyaal בליעל) is an evil being in Hebrew mythology. The name means "without worth". In the Book of Jubilees, uncircumcised heathens are called "sons of Belial". the book of jubilees is a non-canonical hebrew document. but hey, good try bob. it must be the republican in you. posted by quonsar I'm sorry, quonsar, I didn't mean to imply that all pentecostals consider uncircumcised heathens to be "sons of Belial." Or that only pentecostals believe it for that matter. Having never read the book of jubilees, I never even knew what a Belial was before, much less anyone's belief in it. Him. Whatever. Must be an evil creature, though, if he is the instrument through whom I have finally been outed as a Republican, though.

By: Brian B.

Brian B. — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 16:09:13 -0800

GrammarMoses, all the valpo maps are that way. Catholicism, Jewish, Mormon, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist.

By: 2sheets

2sheets — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 16:15:47 -0800

I've attended a service with these morons and it's a disgusting spectacle. The one I went to had a lot more screaming and thrashing on the floor, and at one point a bunch of hicks started surrounding me and touching me with their grubby little fingers because I wasn't having a jesus seizure. The reason I went was that a friend of mine had kicked drugs and fallen into this crap, so I wanted to check it out. He has continued to go between smoking crack and gettin' his jesus on for something like 20 years now.

By: GrammarMoses

GrammarMoses — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 17:06:00 -0800

Brian B., point taken. However, some have ranges that are more balanced or predictable (Catholics, Mormons, Baptists, Lutherans) than others (Jews, Pentacostals). I'm assuming that's because for Catholics, Mormons, et al., the absolute numbers are greater, so it's possible to divide the categories more evenly. Speaking of which, it's interesting to me (raised Jewish, longtime New Yorker) that there are places where more than 50% of the population adheres to one denomination.

By: Mr_Zero

Mr_Zero — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 17:17:14 -0800

I used to go Killing Joke shows with warpaint on and bump up against other folks in the mosh pit. I'm sure that would look equally strange, and perhaps scary to them. It would only be scary if Killing Joke was an imaginary band that you worshiped and would put your life down for.

By: pyramid termite

pyramid termite — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 17:39:17 -0800

re: belial "Corinthians 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?" ps - mainstream protestants and catholics were and sometimes still are reckoned as "unbelievers" i have actually heard pentecostals say it as "yoking christ with belial", though

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 18:15:50 -0800

the Pentecostals are probably the best modern-day analogue to what the Christian church was actually like at its inception That explains so much about Christianity today.

By: nightchrome

nightchrome — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 18:36:14 -0800

I heard a compelling argument recently about how "Christianity" in America is to real Christianity like Voodoo is to Roman Catholicism. A spiritualist folk-religion culture only superficially related to the source by naming conventions and artifacts.

By: ninazer0

ninazer0 — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 20:52:10 -0800

Nightchrome: That's a very interesting take on the matter. Do you remember where you heard/saw the argument? I'd really like to chase that one up if possible. Email is on profile.

By: Iridic

Iridic — Sun, 01 Oct 2006 21:59:27 -0800

On an tangential note, Robert Duvall's The Apostle is a fascinating movie. Duvall plays a Texas Pentecostal minister, a riveting, ranting preacher. It's a masterpiece performance; a non-judgmental study of how a person can be charismatic, inspiring, and good-intentioned while still being a anger-prone, lecherous, prayer-junkie.

By: Kudos

Kudos — Mon, 02 Oct 2006 01:02:54 -0800

A: Bad example of a single church B: Wiki article C: Population map ------- Conclusion: ....ummm, what exactly?

By: goo

goo — Mon, 02 Oct 2006 03:59:53 -0800

Does anyone know if there's anyone doing research into how this works? This article has references to various studies and is an interesting overview of glossolalia. It concludes that glossolalia should be considered a learned behaviour, rather than being down to hypnosis or trance states (is that fancy scientist talk for 'they're all totally faking it'?). It's classic NLP. I was raised Pentecostal, and we 'caught the holy spirit' (started speaking in tongues) by repeating the word 'hallelujah' over and over again, out loud, for as long as possible as often as possible. It took most people three days to a week before the hallelujahs became repetitive gibberish. You infer meaning in the gibberish, and you're speaking in tongues.

By: pracowity

pracowity — Mon, 02 Oct 2006 05:01:42 -0800

If they weren't faking it -- I'm sure some of them were making themselves laugh for fear of looking unholy among the holy rollers on the floor, but still -- if they weren't faking it, they were having a great time. I would love a church that could make me feel that good. Of course, they'd have to be hypnotists and really make me feel that good, because ain't nothing going to rationally convince me there are gods, but if I could get hypnosis-induced rolling-on-the-floor laughing once a week without messing up my head the rest of the week, I might pay the dues and wear the cheesy suit and hang out with the comb overs and Texas hairs once a week. But I'd try to find a less polyester version.

By: Afroblanco

Afroblanco — Mon, 02 Oct 2006 06:59:10 -0800

I knew a pentacostal growing up. She wasn't allowed to dance or gamble. Her hair and skirts had to be a certain length. I don't think she was allowed to talk to me (because I was a boy). She mentioned speaking in tongues, but didn't go into detail.

By: Bovine Love

Bovine Love — Mon, 02 Oct 2006 07:12:54 -0800

That video just made my day a lot less bright; this is one of the more depressing things I have seen in some time. I was born and bred and I wish I could say it was not in the least representative, but alas it was. On a recent trip home, it totally struck me how very very few of those pentecostals I grew up with got a decent education (outside of bible college) and did something contstructive with their lives. It is quite sad. I try not to paint them all with the same brush, and I know people who were 'rescued' by the religion too (genuinely), but it is hard if you actually were involved with them to see it positively, since I believe the religion does more harm on the whole then good.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Mon, 02 Oct 2006 09:32:14 -0800

if I could get hypnosis-induced rolling-on-the-floor laughing once a week without messing up my head the rest of the week Weed.

By: leftcoastbob

leftcoastbob — Mon, 02 Oct 2006 09:36:59 -0800

Looks more like magic mushrooms, in my opinion.

By: figment of my conation

figment of my conation — Mon, 02 Oct 2006 18:34:04 -0800

My pentecostal babysitter used to practice french kissing on me. Not sure if this is to blame for my lesbian lean or my atheism.

By: obeygiant

obeygiant — Thu, 05 Oct 2006 13:55:37 -0800

bonar

By: Brian B.

Brian B. — Fri, 06 Oct 2006 10:03:54 -0800

Pentecostals widening their influence.