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October 14, 2006 7:28 PM Subscribe
This post was deleted for the following reason: this is not a good post for metafilter, save your pranking for elsewhere.
If there had never been this war, he probably would have grown up, married, had children, and become successfull, or not.
Lucky for him we have this war so he can be remembered as a HERO!
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posted by shnoz-gobblin at 7:37 PM on October 14, 2006
Lucky for him we have this war so he can be remembered as a HERO!
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posted by shnoz-gobblin at 7:37 PM on October 14, 2006
“He never took his eye off the grenade, his only movement was down toward it,”
Not that it makes it any less heroic, but if I were him my thoughts would have been more on (very quickly) picking the grenade up and tossing back out the door - thus saving all of our hides - rather than doing a bellyflop on it.
Though I suppose it is easily possible to attempt to achieve both goals at once - attempting to dispose of it while still using one's own body as a shield. It's not that difficult of a decision to make amidst the time-diliation of an extreme adrenaline hit.
posted by loquacious at 7:39 PM on October 14, 2006
Not that it makes it any less heroic, but if I were him my thoughts would have been more on (very quickly) picking the grenade up and tossing back out the door - thus saving all of our hides - rather than doing a bellyflop on it.
Though I suppose it is easily possible to attempt to achieve both goals at once - attempting to dispose of it while still using one's own body as a shield. It's not that difficult of a decision to make amidst the time-diliation of an extreme adrenaline hit.
posted by loquacious at 7:39 PM on October 14, 2006
Wow, it was a good read. Is it bad that the cynical part of me wants to try and put his actions down to training? The realistic part of me is absolutely in awe of his sacrifice. Awed and humbled.
posted by fenriq at 7:40 PM on October 14, 2006
posted by fenriq at 7:40 PM on October 14, 2006
Great meaning to a sacrifice such as his. What would I have to offer my life for in the clutch? Throwing myself over a bag of spinach in the produce aisle?
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posted by hal9k at 7:41 PM on October 14, 2006
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posted by hal9k at 7:41 PM on October 14, 2006
but if I were him my thoughts would have been more on (very quickly) picking the grenade up and tossing back out the door
assuming one knows how much time the grenade has left to go boom ... which is a really big assumption ... hell, he couldn't have been even sure that it wasn't going to explode before he got on top of it
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posted by pyramid termite at 7:44 PM on October 14, 2006
assuming one knows how much time the grenade has left to go boom ... which is a really big assumption ... hell, he couldn't have been even sure that it wasn't going to explode before he got on top of it
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posted by pyramid termite at 7:44 PM on October 14, 2006
it's really hard to click on a dot... that said...
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posted by Dome-O-Rama at 7:45 PM on October 14, 2006
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posted by Dome-O-Rama at 7:45 PM on October 14, 2006
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I've wondered whether I'd be able to do that. I don't have an issue with the idea I might take a bullet for someone, but a grenade is a for-sure death sentence, as opposed to many people surviving a bullet wound. Definitely heroic.
Now, just to put some dark humour in this thread:
I've wondered whether I'd be able to do that. I don't have an issue with the idea I might take a bullet for someone, but a grenade is a for-sure death sentence, as opposed to many people surviving a bullet wound. Definitely heroic.
Now, just to put some dark humour in this thread:
*posted by Kickstart70 at 7:46 PM on October 14, 2006 [2 favorites]
Seriously, as if the .-only comments weren't bad enough, now we have a .-only FPP?
That said, I love Keane's comment.
posted by kdar at 7:47 PM on October 14, 2006
That said, I love Keane's comment.
posted by kdar at 7:47 PM on October 14, 2006
27 Marines threw themselves on grenades in WWII: the three who lived were awarded the Medal of Honor.
...uncommon valor was a common virtue — Admiral Chester W. Nimitz.
posted by cenoxo at 7:51 PM on October 14, 2006
...uncommon valor was a common virtue — Admiral Chester W. Nimitz.
posted by cenoxo at 7:51 PM on October 14, 2006
Though I suppose it is easily possible to attempt to achieve both goals at once - attempting to dispose of it while still using one's own body as a shield. It's not that difficult of a decision to make amidst the time-diliation of an extreme adrenaline hit.
Who replaced loquacious with Steven C. De Beste?
posted by secret about box at 7:53 PM on October 14, 2006
Who replaced loquacious with Steven C. De Beste?
posted by secret about box at 7:53 PM on October 14, 2006
loquacious: Michael Weisskopf, an embedded journalist, saw a grenade land in his Humvee. He grabbed and threw, saving his life but losing his hand in the process.
At first I thought it was a rock, the specialty of street urchins--a harmless shot against an armored humvee. I gazed down and spotted an object on the wooden bench 2 ft. away. The dark oval was as shiny and smooth as a tortoiseshell, roughly 6 in. long and 4 in. wide. None of my fellow passengers seemed to notice. I confronted the intruder alone, a journalist caught in a military moment. Something told me there was no time to consult the soldiers.
Is it bad that the cynical part of me wants to try and put his actions down to training?
Of course it's training. You don't have a lot of time to reflect. I would say that people who do this have already made more than one split-second decision.
Jumping on a grenade is practically a guarantee of a posthumous Medal of Honor. This is what a guy from my hometown did in Vietnam:
Pfc. Bellrichard was with 4 fellow soldiers in a foxhole on their unit's perimeter when the position came under a massive enemy attack. Following a 30-minute mortar barrage, the enemy launched a strong ground assault. Pfc. Bellrichard rose in face of a group of charging enemy soldiers and threw hand grenades into their midst, eliminating several of the foe and forcing the remainder to withdraw. Failing in their initial attack, the enemy repeated the mortar and rocket bombardment of the friendly perimeter, then once again charged against the defenders in a concerted effort to overrun the position. Pfc. Bellrichard resumed throwing hand grenades at the onrushing attackers. As he was about to hurl a grenade, a mortar round exploded just in front of his position, knocking him into the foxhole and causing him to lose his grip on the already armed grenade. Recovering instantly, Pfc. Bellrichard recognized the threat to the lives of his 4 comrades and threw himself upon the grenade, shielding his companions from the blast that followed. Although severely wounded, Pfc. Bellrichard struggled into an upright position in the foxhole and fired his rifle at the enemy until he succumbed to his wounds.
posted by dhartung at 7:53 PM on October 14, 2006
At first I thought it was a rock, the specialty of street urchins--a harmless shot against an armored humvee. I gazed down and spotted an object on the wooden bench 2 ft. away. The dark oval was as shiny and smooth as a tortoiseshell, roughly 6 in. long and 4 in. wide. None of my fellow passengers seemed to notice. I confronted the intruder alone, a journalist caught in a military moment. Something told me there was no time to consult the soldiers.
Is it bad that the cynical part of me wants to try and put his actions down to training?
Of course it's training. You don't have a lot of time to reflect. I would say that people who do this have already made more than one split-second decision.
Jumping on a grenade is practically a guarantee of a posthumous Medal of Honor. This is what a guy from my hometown did in Vietnam:
Pfc. Bellrichard was with 4 fellow soldiers in a foxhole on their unit's perimeter when the position came under a massive enemy attack. Following a 30-minute mortar barrage, the enemy launched a strong ground assault. Pfc. Bellrichard rose in face of a group of charging enemy soldiers and threw hand grenades into their midst, eliminating several of the foe and forcing the remainder to withdraw. Failing in their initial attack, the enemy repeated the mortar and rocket bombardment of the friendly perimeter, then once again charged against the defenders in a concerted effort to overrun the position. Pfc. Bellrichard resumed throwing hand grenades at the onrushing attackers. As he was about to hurl a grenade, a mortar round exploded just in front of his position, knocking him into the foxhole and causing him to lose his grip on the already armed grenade. Recovering instantly, Pfc. Bellrichard recognized the threat to the lives of his 4 comrades and threw himself upon the grenade, shielding his companions from the blast that followed. Although severely wounded, Pfc. Bellrichard struggled into an upright position in the foxhole and fired his rifle at the enemy until he succumbed to his wounds.
posted by dhartung at 7:53 PM on October 14, 2006
Thanks for the post. We all need daily reminders of the losses that are being suffered as a result of the decisions of our government.
To the family of Petty Officer 2nd Class Michael A. Monsoor, I offer my condolences.
May we all treat this event with the respect it deserves.
posted by HuronBob at 7:55 PM on October 14, 2006
To the family of Petty Officer 2nd Class Michael A. Monsoor, I offer my condolences.
May we all treat this event with the respect it deserves.
posted by HuronBob at 7:55 PM on October 14, 2006
why talk of beauty what could be more beaut-
iful than these heroic happy dead
who rushed like lions to the roaring slaughter
they did not stop to think they died instead
- e e cummings
posted by scottreynen at 8:04 PM on October 14, 2006
iful than these heroic happy dead
who rushed like lions to the roaring slaughter
they did not stop to think they died instead
- e e cummings
posted by scottreynen at 8:04 PM on October 14, 2006
Throwing myself over a bag of spinach in the produce aisle
...thus saving us from a horrible e. coli death.
posted by quonsar at 8:06 PM on October 14, 2006
...thus saving us from a horrible e. coli death.
posted by quonsar at 8:06 PM on October 14, 2006
As for being a useless twat who wants to post a complaint, this has already been covered recently
posted by ZachsMind at 8:15 PM on October 14, 2006
posted by ZachsMind at 8:15 PM on October 14, 2006
Sorry, ZachsMind - i don't think it's been covered. Hence, MeTa.
posted by casconed at 8:18 PM on October 14, 2006
posted by casconed at 8:18 PM on October 14, 2006
"It's not that difficult of a decision to make amidst the time-diliation of an extreme adrenaline hit."
And you note this given your extensive experience lobbing back grenades during adrenaline hit time-dialation, no doubt.
posted by jscalzi at 8:21 PM on October 14, 2006
And you note this given your extensive experience lobbing back grenades during adrenaline hit time-dialation, no doubt.
posted by jscalzi at 8:21 PM on October 14, 2006
hats off to al Monsoor. Also to fff for crafting the ultimate one-link newsfilter. What form!
posted by mwhybark at 8:24 PM on October 14, 2006
posted by mwhybark at 8:24 PM on October 14, 2006
...but a grenade is a for-sure death sentence...
From Combat Casualty Care Guidelines, Operation Desert Storm, February 1991 — The Nature of Combat Injuries and the Role of ATLS in Their Management:
posted by cenoxo at 8:27 PM on October 14, 2006
From Combat Casualty Care Guidelines, Operation Desert Storm, February 1991 — The Nature of Combat Injuries and the Role of ATLS in Their Management:
Explosive Munitions. Explosive munitions range in size from hand grenades, which weigh several ounces, to aerial bombs, which weigh several tons. The basic design of a fragmentation munition requires that a metal container break apart when an internal explosive charge detonates. Depending upon the munition’s size and design, several thousand metal fragments may be produced, ranging in weight from a few milligrams to many grams and in initial velocity up to 5,000-6,000 fps. Fragments radiate from the detonation site and can retain their wounding potential for up to several hundred meters. An explosion also can injure by its blast and thermal effects. However, the radii of blast and thermal effects are very much shorter than the radius for fragments, and a casualty who sustains blast and thermal injuries from an explosive munition will probably be killed by fragments. The observed lethality associated with a conventional shell is about 1 in 5. Hand grenades fatally injure about 1 casualty in 10.Even so, imagine the prospect of lying on one of these^.
posted by cenoxo at 8:27 PM on October 14, 2006
Wow. Some of you guys take your MetaSnobbiness to new levels of douchebaggery in this thread. I hope I never have anything serious to say here.
Me: "Hey my Dad died in a car accidnet today."
You: "Well he must have been a shitty driver! And Jesus Christ, don't you know how to use a fucking comma?"
posted by Darth Fedor at 8:28 PM on October 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
Me: "Hey my Dad died in a car accidnet today."
You: "Well he must have been a shitty driver! And Jesus Christ, don't you know how to use a fucking comma?"
posted by Darth Fedor at 8:28 PM on October 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
And just to beat you to it:
"...or spell accident!"
posted by Darth Fedor at 8:29 PM on October 14, 2006
"...or spell accident!"
posted by Darth Fedor at 8:29 PM on October 14, 2006
And you note this given your extensive experience lobbing back grenades during adrenaline hit time-dialation, no doubt.
No, 'cause I've never, ever gone paintballing with live pressure grenades, and then there certainly wasn't the 3 extremely nerdly years of illicitly leaping from catwalk to catwalk in Photon arenas, and of course before that I never even thought once about playing pickup games of street Lazer Tag that involved a lot of falling out of trees, leaping from apartment building rooftops, diving into dumpsters and otherwise attempting to kill myself with the divine combination of gravity and stupidity.
And goodness knows I would never, say, attempt to play with fireworks or - heavin forbid! - have a fireworks war where we might possibly do something as utterly unbelieveable as fire bottle rockets or throwing cherry bombs, M-50s and M-80s at each other.
So, no. I have never, ever picked up a sputtering explosive and threw it back whence it came.
In fact, the experience is entirely beyond the realm of my puny imagination. I might as well attempt to imagine rolling the moon in my palm like a marble. Ok, that wasn't so hard. It feels chalky and heavy. I'm going to imagine insufflating an entire globular cluster of galaxies, next. Ok, that burns a whole lot. It's full of stars. Nevermind. Bad example.
And of course I never, ever spent the years prior to that throwing rocks or dirt clods at other boys and imagining they were real, live grenades.
God forbid, it might have been a normal white American male adolescence in suburbia frought with violence both real and simulated, otherwise.
He's a human being who happens to be trained as a SEAL, not fucking Kal-El from The Great Inky Beyond.
Which only makes him more of a hero, of course, but still. He did something that any of us could easily do. Thankfully, not many of us are in a position to have to make such decisions.
But what I am saying this: as other comments indicated in this thread, if you or I were in his well-worn shoes we would hopefully attempt to do the same.
Consider it my optimism for humanity. People do indeed regularly do some incredibly stupid, heroic shit, and it's nothing but awesome.
posted by loquacious at 8:48 PM on October 14, 2006 [2 favorites]
No, 'cause I've never, ever gone paintballing with live pressure grenades, and then there certainly wasn't the 3 extremely nerdly years of illicitly leaping from catwalk to catwalk in Photon arenas, and of course before that I never even thought once about playing pickup games of street Lazer Tag that involved a lot of falling out of trees, leaping from apartment building rooftops, diving into dumpsters and otherwise attempting to kill myself with the divine combination of gravity and stupidity.
And goodness knows I would never, say, attempt to play with fireworks or - heavin forbid! - have a fireworks war where we might possibly do something as utterly unbelieveable as fire bottle rockets or throwing cherry bombs, M-50s and M-80s at each other.
So, no. I have never, ever picked up a sputtering explosive and threw it back whence it came.
In fact, the experience is entirely beyond the realm of my puny imagination. I might as well attempt to imagine rolling the moon in my palm like a marble. Ok, that wasn't so hard. It feels chalky and heavy. I'm going to imagine insufflating an entire globular cluster of galaxies, next. Ok, that burns a whole lot. It's full of stars. Nevermind. Bad example.
And of course I never, ever spent the years prior to that throwing rocks or dirt clods at other boys and imagining they were real, live grenades.
God forbid, it might have been a normal white American male adolescence in suburbia frought with violence both real and simulated, otherwise.
He's a human being who happens to be trained as a SEAL, not fucking Kal-El from The Great Inky Beyond.
Which only makes him more of a hero, of course, but still. He did something that any of us could easily do. Thankfully, not many of us are in a position to have to make such decisions.
But what I am saying this: as other comments indicated in this thread, if you or I were in his well-worn shoes we would hopefully attempt to do the same.
Consider it my optimism for humanity. People do indeed regularly do some incredibly stupid, heroic shit, and it's nothing but awesome.
posted by loquacious at 8:48 PM on October 14, 2006 [2 favorites]
Any spelling errors, grammatical noodling or typos in the previous post is brought to you by the letter 2, the numeral U and a friday night vodka bender that's probably not going to end until Monday.
posted by loquacious at 8:50 PM on October 14, 2006
posted by loquacious at 8:50 PM on October 14, 2006
Hey! You have too done that stuff, according to our records.
posted by shnoz-gobblin at 9:02 PM on October 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by shnoz-gobblin at 9:02 PM on October 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
Honestly, people, don't hate on him. He demonstrated more valor and courage in combat than any of the current leadership ever showed under live fire.
I mean, think about Dubya's combat experience. Or Cheney's. Or Rumsfeld's. Or Rove's.
Don't hate on our fighting men and women of our all-volunteer professional armed forces. Hate on the hucksters that put them in harm's way in the name of politics.
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posted by dw at 9:03 PM on October 14, 2006
I mean, think about Dubya's combat experience. Or Cheney's. Or Rumsfeld's. Or Rove's.
Don't hate on our fighting men and women of our all-volunteer professional armed forces. Hate on the hucksters that put them in harm's way in the name of politics.
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posted by dw at 9:03 PM on October 14, 2006
Can someone explain the origin of the single dot to me? I get the gist, but am still a bit confused.
posted by chrisamiller at 9:08 PM on October 14, 2006
posted by chrisamiller at 9:08 PM on October 14, 2006
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posted by SisterHavana at 9:13 PM on October 14, 2006
posted by SisterHavana at 9:13 PM on October 14, 2006
. x 2700
I feel sorry for his family. If you guys had an even remotely decent government, this boy would not have had to die in this way. Nor would 2700 others.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 9:15 PM on October 14, 2006
I feel sorry for his family. If you guys had an even remotely decent government, this boy would not have had to die in this way. Nor would 2700 others.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 9:15 PM on October 14, 2006
chrisamiller: it's the textual equivalent of a moment of silence, in the MetaFilter subdialect of Internet English.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 9:16 PM on October 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 9:16 PM on October 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
A dot for each US soldier killed in Iraq. I'd do one for each of the 600,000 or so Iraqis, but the server can only handle so much.
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2760 American deaths, and over 44,000 casualties. and for what?
posted by chrisamiller at 9:24 PM on October 14, 2006 [4 favorites]
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2760 American deaths, and over 44,000 casualties. and for what?
posted by chrisamiller at 9:24 PM on October 14, 2006 [4 favorites]
And the problem is, the 2760 dots blur together into an image that is something else entirely. Not just an optical illusion.
What this one particular soldier did was an act of self-sacrifice, not toward victory over an ideological enemy, or in the service of corporate interests, but to protect his comrades. An that was a singluar act.
And this was a singular post, (as I explain in more depth here) but don't ANYBODY ever do it again.
posted by wendell at 9:37 PM on October 14, 2006
What this one particular soldier did was an act of self-sacrifice, not toward victory over an ideological enemy, or in the service of corporate interests, but to protect his comrades. An that was a singluar act.
And this was a singular post, (as I explain in more depth here) but don't ANYBODY ever do it again.
posted by wendell at 9:37 PM on October 14, 2006
"God forbid, it might have been a normal white American male adolescence in suburbia frought with violence both real and simulated, otherwise."
Yes, I can see how all that paintball and Lazer Tag is almost exactly like having a live grenade dropped into your lap in the middle of an actual shooting war. Also, how a normal white American male adolescence in suburbia is uncannily similar to fighting in a battlezone as part of the military.
I don't know how I could have possibly confused these two states. How silly of me for doing so.
Now I think I'll go play some Counter-strike, which I think should qualify me for a GI Bill.
posted by jscalzi at 9:48 PM on October 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
Yes, I can see how all that paintball and Lazer Tag is almost exactly like having a live grenade dropped into your lap in the middle of an actual shooting war. Also, how a normal white American male adolescence in suburbia is uncannily similar to fighting in a battlezone as part of the military.
I don't know how I could have possibly confused these two states. How silly of me for doing so.
Now I think I'll go play some Counter-strike, which I think should qualify me for a GI Bill.
posted by jscalzi at 9:48 PM on October 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
Hand grenades fatally injure about 1 casualty in 10.
That's a pretty useless stat. Falling on a grenade is not the same as one going off in your general area and hitting you in the arm with shrapnel.
posted by smackfu at 9:55 PM on October 14, 2006
That's a pretty useless stat. Falling on a grenade is not the same as one going off in your general area and hitting you in the arm with shrapnel.
posted by smackfu at 9:55 PM on October 14, 2006
Also, how a normal white American male adolescence in suburbia is uncannily similar to fighting in a battlezone as part of the military.
Oddly more similar than either of us would care to admit, perhaps.
My point was is that he was probably trying to remove the grenade, not jump on it, or an attempt to do both. If I can experience similar thoughts/urges in gameplay why is it so unfathomable to extrapolate to warfare when it really counts?
People are capable of incredible feats of speed/skill/strength when called upon. The fact that these skills can be easily called forth again and again in mere games only supports my argument that to someone as trained and skilled as a SEAL it should become even more effective and natural.
And incidents and tales of people throwing time-fused grenades back are pretty common.
While it wasn't a life-or-death situation, I've done it with paintball grenades with similarly timed "fuse" delays. The only difference was that instead of dying, I'd probably only be covered in paint and stung a little. However, the adrenaline and panicked mindset is almost entirely there.
I don't indicate and reiterate this to imply I'm some kind of stupendous badass, but rather to point out that I'm a goofy, clumsy nerd. And if a big, clumsy, goofy nerd can do it... etcetera, etcetera.
posted by loquacious at 10:04 PM on October 14, 2006
Oddly more similar than either of us would care to admit, perhaps.
My point was is that he was probably trying to remove the grenade, not jump on it, or an attempt to do both. If I can experience similar thoughts/urges in gameplay why is it so unfathomable to extrapolate to warfare when it really counts?
People are capable of incredible feats of speed/skill/strength when called upon. The fact that these skills can be easily called forth again and again in mere games only supports my argument that to someone as trained and skilled as a SEAL it should become even more effective and natural.
And incidents and tales of people throwing time-fused grenades back are pretty common.
While it wasn't a life-or-death situation, I've done it with paintball grenades with similarly timed "fuse" delays. The only difference was that instead of dying, I'd probably only be covered in paint and stung a little. However, the adrenaline and panicked mindset is almost entirely there.
I don't indicate and reiterate this to imply I'm some kind of stupendous badass, but rather to point out that I'm a goofy, clumsy nerd. And if a big, clumsy, goofy nerd can do it... etcetera, etcetera.
posted by loquacious at 10:04 PM on October 14, 2006
Hero? I suppose it's a question of interpretation.
Def. 1.2
Def. 2.2
Def. 1.3.b
But I'm sure GWB really appreciates the sacrifice, so it wasn't in vain.
posted by Meatbomb at 10:10 PM on October 14, 2006
Def. 1.2
Def. 2.2
Def. 1.3.b
But I'm sure GWB really appreciates the sacrifice, so it wasn't in vain.
posted by Meatbomb at 10:10 PM on October 14, 2006
"Oddly more similar than either of us would care to admit, perhaps."
No, not really.
I think it's cute that you continue to try to generate some sort of equivalence between your paintball adventures and actual combat, but I'm not really sold on the idea that having your clothes splattered with paint is a close analogue to having your guts blown out, or that this fellow's choice to use his own body to save his fellow soldiers deserves to be armchair quarterbacked via a comparison to what one would do whilst playing Lazer Tag.
posted by jscalzi at 10:16 PM on October 14, 2006
No, not really.
I think it's cute that you continue to try to generate some sort of equivalence between your paintball adventures and actual combat, but I'm not really sold on the idea that having your clothes splattered with paint is a close analogue to having your guts blown out, or that this fellow's choice to use his own body to save his fellow soldiers deserves to be armchair quarterbacked via a comparison to what one would do whilst playing Lazer Tag.
posted by jscalzi at 10:16 PM on October 14, 2006
Perhaps it is sad, but I can't imagine a better way to die than by laying on a grenade to save a room full of Navy Seals--Or maybe just one. Except maybe passing naturally from old age, lying in bed next to my spouse. Maybe.
Ascribe it to training if you like, I'm happy with that. Just don't say "only" the training, unless you've passed that training yourself. Fat chance. The sacrifice started with the training. It only ended with the grenade.
posted by Goofyy at 10:17 PM on October 14, 2006
Ascribe it to training if you like, I'm happy with that. Just don't say "only" the training, unless you've passed that training yourself. Fat chance. The sacrifice started with the training. It only ended with the grenade.
posted by Goofyy at 10:17 PM on October 14, 2006
?An American Sentenced to Death in Iraq
posted by homunculus at 10:25 PM on October 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 10:25 PM on October 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
I think it's cute that you continue to try to generate some sort of equivalence between your paintball adventures and actual combat
Ok, you can ascribe whatever emotionally irrational attributes to any argument you'd ever care to, but you're either willfully ignoring my point, or you're picking nits or you're an idiot, or all of the above:
My point is this: We shouldn't assume what was going through this soldier's mind at the time.
I'm simply saying he may not have been intending solely to cover the grenade. Intentional, self-sacrificial suicide doesn't come as easy as simply trying to solve the problem.
The possibility that he was trying to save his own hide as well as his comrades doesn't detract from any nebulous, ill-defined attributes such as "heroism".
posted by loquacious at 10:40 PM on October 14, 2006
Ok, you can ascribe whatever emotionally irrational attributes to any argument you'd ever care to, but you're either willfully ignoring my point, or you're picking nits or you're an idiot, or all of the above:
My point is this: We shouldn't assume what was going through this soldier's mind at the time.
I'm simply saying he may not have been intending solely to cover the grenade. Intentional, self-sacrificial suicide doesn't come as easy as simply trying to solve the problem.
The possibility that he was trying to save his own hide as well as his comrades doesn't detract from any nebulous, ill-defined attributes such as "heroism".
posted by loquacious at 10:40 PM on October 14, 2006
Ok, you can ascribe whatever emotionally irrational attributes to any argument you'd ever care to, but you're either willfully ignoring my point, or you're picking nits or you're an idiot, or all of the above:
Hah, what? The difference between death and being splattered with paint is not a "nit".
posted by delmoi at 10:57 PM on October 14, 2006
Hah, what? The difference between death and being splattered with paint is not a "nit".
posted by delmoi at 10:57 PM on October 14, 2006
l'm not dissing the sentiment, but the only way this post could've been worse in a "following MeFi best-practices" sense is if you'd not included any tags at all. Even something as small as a title="" in the post link would've been an improvement!
All that said: .
posted by sparkletone at 11:11 PM on October 14, 2006
All that said: .
posted by sparkletone at 11:11 PM on October 14, 2006
No, I pity him. Poor misguided schmuck.
I pity you. This "schmuck" did something nobler than you will ever likely do, or can even contemplate doing, apparently.
.
posted by Urban Hermit at 11:38 PM on October 14, 2006
I pity you. This "schmuck" did something nobler than you will ever likely do, or can even contemplate doing, apparently.
.
posted by Urban Hermit at 11:38 PM on October 14, 2006
Hah, what? The difference between death and being splattered with paint is not a "nit".
I'm not talking about dying or not dying. I'm talking about not wanting to die being plenty of motivation to try and, you know, not die being very strong in people, and that he was very probably trying to do just that - not commit suicide jumping on a grenade.
I was indicating I had sympathy with such a scenario through similar experiences in game play designed to simulate warfare. I wasn't saying I was a goddamned SEAL.
I don't see why I'm getting jumped all over 'cause I suggested it might be possible he was trying to remove the grenade, and I don't understand why some of you think it's some kind of physically impossible thing to do. dhartung links to a story where a journalist did it.
A Vietnam vet friend I just asked says he was probably trying to toss the grenade, not cover it, and the covering was either an intended or accidental side effect.
posted by loquacious at 11:40 PM on October 14, 2006
I'm not talking about dying or not dying. I'm talking about not wanting to die being plenty of motivation to try and, you know, not die being very strong in people, and that he was very probably trying to do just that - not commit suicide jumping on a grenade.
I was indicating I had sympathy with such a scenario through similar experiences in game play designed to simulate warfare. I wasn't saying I was a goddamned SEAL.
I don't see why I'm getting jumped all over 'cause I suggested it might be possible he was trying to remove the grenade, and I don't understand why some of you think it's some kind of physically impossible thing to do. dhartung links to a story where a journalist did it.
A Vietnam vet friend I just asked says he was probably trying to toss the grenade, not cover it, and the covering was either an intended or accidental side effect.
posted by loquacious at 11:40 PM on October 14, 2006
I would have backed off the grenade in any way possible. It would have been instinct. And then, only after I had survived the blast, if I survived at all, would I even have had a chance to think about what had just happened. The event of it landing in my foxhole wouldn't even play theough my head until my ears were ringing and I was checking myself for shrapnel.
And at that point any one of the soldiers near me would certainly feel safer without my shaky hands on the assault rifle. And I wouldn't get over it for days.
I have a beloved friend in basic training right now, and thank god that he's made of stronger mettle than I am, but I have to imagine that most people's reactions would be similar to mine. I too played faux-lazer-tag, and bottle-rocket-wars, and any number of likewise amusements in my adolescence. But riding a roller-coaster isn't the same as falling uncontrollably down a mountain, and watching a horror movie isn't the same as dealing with a killer in your house.
This guy saw a grenade land in his foxhole, and instead of backing off of it, he ran towards it in the hopes that he could do something. And he made that decision in the blink of an eye. Now, I'm sure that, if possible, he would've thrown the grenade back. Human nature is such that we don't generally cuddle a grenade until it explodes, and if he could have, he would've gotten it away from his whole team and hopefully lived to see his family once again. I'm also sure that training had a lot to do with it, but I doubt that foru months of drills alone can override millions of years of instinct for self-preservation. He made a choice to be willing to die for his team if that's how it went down. And he made it in the blink of an eye.
I'd like to think that I could do the same, but I imagine I'd be incapable of it. I don't want to debate the nature of heroism, but I'd certinly hope that making a split-second choice to be willing to die so that others may live would fit the bill.
.
posted by Navelgazer at 12:36 AM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
And at that point any one of the soldiers near me would certainly feel safer without my shaky hands on the assault rifle. And I wouldn't get over it for days.
I have a beloved friend in basic training right now, and thank god that he's made of stronger mettle than I am, but I have to imagine that most people's reactions would be similar to mine. I too played faux-lazer-tag, and bottle-rocket-wars, and any number of likewise amusements in my adolescence. But riding a roller-coaster isn't the same as falling uncontrollably down a mountain, and watching a horror movie isn't the same as dealing with a killer in your house.
This guy saw a grenade land in his foxhole, and instead of backing off of it, he ran towards it in the hopes that he could do something. And he made that decision in the blink of an eye. Now, I'm sure that, if possible, he would've thrown the grenade back. Human nature is such that we don't generally cuddle a grenade until it explodes, and if he could have, he would've gotten it away from his whole team and hopefully lived to see his family once again. I'm also sure that training had a lot to do with it, but I doubt that foru months of drills alone can override millions of years of instinct for self-preservation. He made a choice to be willing to die for his team if that's how it went down. And he made it in the blink of an eye.
I'd like to think that I could do the same, but I imagine I'd be incapable of it. I don't want to debate the nature of heroism, but I'd certinly hope that making a split-second choice to be willing to die so that others may live would fit the bill.
.
posted by Navelgazer at 12:36 AM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
And as long as I live
I'll never know the reason why
The worst of men must fight
And the best of men must die
"The Ballad of the Reuben James"
Woodrow Wilson Guthrie (1941)
posted by rdone at 12:53 AM on October 15, 2006
I'll never know the reason why
The worst of men must fight
And the best of men must die
"The Ballad of the Reuben James"
Woodrow Wilson Guthrie (1941)
posted by rdone at 12:53 AM on October 15, 2006
If I can experience similar thoughts/urges in gameplay why is it so unfathomable to extrapolate to warfare when it really counts?
Because you simply can't compare gameplay and the real thing. You didn't spend months in training for your gameplay. You didn't see people die all around you in your playground fun. You didn't experience episode after episode of PTSD. I don't know why you're still arguing about this persons actions. You weren't there, you were never there, you've never experienced anything similar no matter how much you think you might have.
posted by cell divide at 12:58 AM on October 15, 2006
Because you simply can't compare gameplay and the real thing. You didn't spend months in training for your gameplay. You didn't see people die all around you in your playground fun. You didn't experience episode after episode of PTSD. I don't know why you're still arguing about this persons actions. You weren't there, you were never there, you've never experienced anything similar no matter how much you think you might have.
posted by cell divide at 12:58 AM on October 15, 2006
Nothing changes the fact that he threw himself upon a grenade that was thrown by someone because someone else was invading his home.
If a well-armed platoon occupied my home and I lobbed in a grenade to repel the invaders, and someone foiled it, I would be pissed at the asshole who stymied my attempt to reclaim my home.
posted by sourwookie at 1:01 AM on October 15, 2006
If a well-armed platoon occupied my home and I lobbed in a grenade to repel the invaders, and someone foiled it, I would be pissed at the asshole who stymied my attempt to reclaim my home.
posted by sourwookie at 1:01 AM on October 15, 2006
Shit, I think I was cut off about 2/3 of the way through.
Doesn't matter though. They're brown, distant, and have unpronouncable names.
SEMPER FI! ARMY OF ONE! HOOOHA!
posted by sourwookie at 1:25 AM on October 15, 2006
Doesn't matter though. They're brown, distant, and have unpronouncable names.
SEMPER FI! ARMY OF ONE! HOOOHA!
posted by sourwookie at 1:25 AM on October 15, 2006
In case you thought that was a lot, it's actually just less than 15% of the 600,000, by Microsoft Word's count. Heroism, to my mind, requires a heroic macro-cause. You don't need to risk Godwinising this thread to see that. I'm with the wookie.
posted by imperium at 2:08 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by imperium at 2:08 AM on October 15, 2006
sourwookie, You left out the traditional "Scr00llll b1tch!!" And Kickstart70 wins.
But just for some prespective, lets remember how our leaders have always view such sacrifice:
Men will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon. - Napoleon Bonaparte
posted by jeffburdges at 3:37 AM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
But just for some prespective, lets remember how our leaders have always view such sacrifice:
Men will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon. - Napoleon Bonaparte
posted by jeffburdges at 3:37 AM on October 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
I pity you. This "schmuck" did something nobler than you will ever likely do, or can even contemplate doing, apparently.
posted by Urban Hermit at 11:38 PM PST
So putting oneself into a position where one can be shot at and killed because the leadership said that a nation under sanctions was a threat makes you noble?
posted by rough ashlar at 4:14 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by Urban Hermit at 11:38 PM PST
So putting oneself into a position where one can be shot at and killed because the leadership said that a nation under sanctions was a threat makes you noble?
posted by rough ashlar at 4:14 AM on October 15, 2006
A hero?!
..putting oneself into a position where one can be shot at and killed because the leadership said that a nation under sanctions was a threat makes you noble?
oh, wait, never mind. *sigh* - maybe one day we'll have hero's.
posted by stbalbach at 5:42 AM on October 15, 2006
..putting oneself into a position where one can be shot at and killed because the leadership said that a nation under sanctions was a threat makes you noble?
oh, wait, never mind. *sigh* - maybe one day we'll have hero's.
posted by stbalbach at 5:42 AM on October 15, 2006
I do not wish to detract in any way the valiance of the soldier who jumped on that grenade, but two things strike me as odd:
1) I can't vouch for the US, but in Canada I was taught, and taught to teach that by jumping on a grenade you create more shrapnel and thus risk increasing the danger for your friends, best to lie down on your belly, cross your legs and put your hands over the back of your neck. Obviously this isn't an easy option when in a foxhole, which leads me to...
2) All foxholes that have been around for more than 8 hours should have a pit dug in one of the corners at a 45 degree angle and descending as deep as possible (.5-1.0 metres) to which grenades can be kicked into, thus containing most of the explosion and redirecting the remaining blast to a narrow cone.
I'd be curious to know if the US military does the same, and if so, why it wasn't applied in this situation.
posted by furtive at 5:56 AM on October 15, 2006
1) I can't vouch for the US, but in Canada I was taught, and taught to teach that by jumping on a grenade you create more shrapnel and thus risk increasing the danger for your friends, best to lie down on your belly, cross your legs and put your hands over the back of your neck. Obviously this isn't an easy option when in a foxhole, which leads me to...
2) All foxholes that have been around for more than 8 hours should have a pit dug in one of the corners at a 45 degree angle and descending as deep as possible (.5-1.0 metres) to which grenades can be kicked into, thus containing most of the explosion and redirecting the remaining blast to a narrow cone.
I'd be curious to know if the US military does the same, and if so, why it wasn't applied in this situation.
posted by furtive at 5:56 AM on October 15, 2006
As nobody has posted this already: PO2 Monsoor, going by his name, was probably Arabic-American, in case you wanted an extra helping of dramatic irony.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 6:08 AM on October 15, 2006
posted by AmbroseChapel at 6:08 AM on October 15, 2006
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Michael A. Monsoor, and others who have acted selflessly in the war, I am humbled, thankful, and hold you in highest honour.
As a convenience to our MeFi wankers, here's the link you want: MetaTalk. I just know some useless twat will want to post a complaint.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:29 PM on October 14, 2006