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Ted Haggard | New Life Church
November 2, 2006 3:43 PM   RSS feed for this thread Subscribe

Ted Haggard, one of the most prominent evangelical pastors in the nation, resigned today as president of the National Association of Evangelicals amid allegations that he carried on a three-year sexual relationship with a male prostitute. He also steps down as pastor of of his 14,000-member New Life Church while a church panel investigates, saying he could "not continue to minister under the cloud created by the accusations."
posted by ericb (1829 comments total) 37 users marked this as a favorite

Earlier thread which was deleted - here.
posted by ericb at 3:44 PM on November 2, 2006


Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
posted by interrobang at 3:45 PM on November 2, 2006 [2 favorites]


Well, I think this shows that the prior deletion was misplaced. How about resurrecting that dead thread?
posted by caddis at 3:47 PM on November 2, 2006


I don't see anything wrong with priests having sex with prostitutes. Rather than firing this guy, perhaps they should reconsider their flawed doctrine.

Treat the disease, not the symptoms.
posted by Meatbomb at 3:48 PM on November 2, 2006 [1 favorite]


Christ. What an asshole!
posted by hal9k at 3:48 PM on November 2, 2006 [1 favorite]


Original claim by gay prostitute allegedly backed up by evidence:
"Today, Jones showed the Denver Post an envelope addressed to him from 'Art,' a name Jones says Haggard used - sent from an address in Colorado Springs. Jones said the envelope came to him with two $100 bills inside.

Jones also played a recording of a voicemail left for Jones from 'Art.' Jones refused to reveal what the topic of the voicemail was about because there could be legal problems and he wants to consult with an attorney....Jones said he would take a lie detector test to validate his claims."

posted by ericb at 3:48 PM on November 2, 2006


Obviously, he stepped down so he can spend more time openly pursuing man ass.
posted by MegoSteve at 3:50 PM on November 2, 2006 [7 favorites]


Quick, somebody find a picture of him with Santorum, please.
posted by Ironmouth at 3:50 PM on November 2, 2006


So he is innocent, right?
posted by ernie at 3:52 PM on November 2, 2006


Huh. I was sure this was going to be nothing. First Foley, then this...
posted by smackfu at 3:52 PM on November 2, 2006


So at what point do evangelicals agree that they are more morally corrupt than teh gays and teh vile leftist liebrals.
posted by sourbrew at 3:53 PM on November 2, 2006


Ha ha... hooo. Hoo.

*wipes tear*

This is the weaselly little fuck who George Bush consults. This is the arrogant little asshole with his stadium-seating megachurch in Colorado Springs, the same one who told Richard Dawkins not to be arrogant. Sex with a male prostitute? Stepping down is not an admission of guilt? This is fucking great.

I've been waiting for a PTL-style meltdown for a long time, and now that these fuckers are ensconced in our government, with all the money and power that comes along with being aligned with the Plutocrat Party, some of that power-abuse is coming back to bite them in the ass. It's about time.
posted by interrobang at 3:54 PM on November 2, 2006


Obviously, he stepped down so he can spend more time openly pursuing man ass.

*snort* Good one!
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 3:55 PM on November 2, 2006


So.... this one turned out pretty much exactly like the Foley thing. Way to go, MeFi skeptics. You're 0 and 2!
posted by rxrfrx at 3:56 PM on November 2, 2006


Quick, somebody find a picture of him with Santorum, please.
posted by Ironmouth at 11:50 PM GMT on November 2


Spare me the gory details, please!
posted by dash_slot- at 3:56 PM on November 2, 2006


PTL-style meltdown

PTL?
posted by SBMike at 3:57 PM on November 2, 2006


Yup, props to whoever got this into the blue earlier. Shame it got deleted.

Welcome to hell, Ted. This one's real.
posted by imperium at 3:57 PM on November 2, 2006


...Today, Jones showed the Denver Post an envelope addressed to him from "Art," a name Jones says Haggard used - sent from an address in Colorado Springs. Jones said the envelope came to him with two $100 bills inside...

$200 hush money?!? I'm assuming the trick dough was presented in person, but the double-Benjis in question were mailed, implying a bribe, right?

If you are trying to shut someone up, at least make a real effort!
posted by ernie at 3:58 PM on November 2, 2006


P.S. grind grind grind grind grind
posted by rxrfrx at 3:59 PM on November 2, 2006


PTL
posted by mrnutty at 3:59 PM on November 2, 2006


The GOP hates the gays, fears the gays, yet many of these hated and feared gays are the GOP. hee hee. Perhaps it is time for them to find somebody else to hate?
posted by caddis at 3:59 PM on November 2, 2006


PTL. Watch for the nice Jerry Falwell quote in there.
posted by imperium at 4:00 PM on November 2, 2006


"he thinks through a gay newspaper advertisement or an online ad he posted on rentboy.com."

heh. There's something rather amusing about that domain name.
posted by drstein at 4:00 PM on November 2, 2006


pleasepleaseplease be true
posted by Falconetti at 4:01 PM on November 2, 2006


Let's get a pool going; how long before he goes into "rehab"?
posted by you just lost the game at 4:02 PM on November 2, 2006


From the Harper's article in the prev. thread:
According to Ted, it was this army of Christian capitalists that took to the streets. “They're pro-free markets, they're pro-private property,” he said. “That's what evangelical stands for.”
Supply side Christ rides again, I guess.
posted by boo_radley at 4:03 PM on November 2, 2006


Let's get a pool going; how long before he goes into "rehab"?

Alcohol is a hell of a drug!
posted by ernie at 4:03 PM on November 2, 2006


If you go to Haggard's site there's a section titled "What He Believes". But there isn't one called "What He Thinks". Wonder why?
posted by you just lost the game at 4:05 PM on November 2, 2006


What the hell does that "grind grind grind grind grind" mean? It's bad enough we have cryptic FPPs, but do we really need cryptic reasons for deletion?

(I realize this should go to MetaTalk, and I would, except that I used up my once-per-four-days)
posted by Kickstart70 at 4:05 PM on November 2, 2006


The timing on this really is excellent. I wonder if that is an accident?
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 4:06 PM on November 2, 2006


WooHoooooooooooooooo!

posted by mr.curmudgeon at 4:07 PM on November 2, 2006


In Ted's defense that rent boy was way hot. Plus he really was quite a deal. Around-the-world PLUS a reach-around for less than $50 bucks! Including breakfast! Who could pass that up?

And Ted's wife? "Gayle" Well, let's just say the former Easter German supposed "all-female" shot-putter team may be short a member.
posted by tkchrist at 4:08 PM on November 2, 2006


he seemed to be grindgrindgrindgrinding a hell of a lot of man ass, that's for sure
posted by matteo at 4:09 PM on November 2, 2006


The more they rant, the more they're hiding.

Ted Haggard to his flock: Don't be Weird (after the Harper's piece, TV crews were coming)
posted by amberglow at 4:09 PM on November 2, 2006 [1 favorite]


caddis writes: Well, I think this shows that the prior deletion was misplaced. How about resurrecting that dead thread?

Interesting question, which got me to wondering: has any deleted thread ever been resurrected, in the history of MetaFilter? Any tearful apologies and confession of sins from the moderators?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 4:13 PM on November 2, 2006


Seems strange he'd choose to be gay like that.
posted by ODiV at 4:13 PM on November 2, 2006 [22 favorites]


And maybe this will help the Air Force thing in Colorado Springs, where that church has made it a hostile place to non-Christians.
posted by amberglow at 4:14 PM on November 2, 2006


As far as I can tell, this guy was about equal to James Dobson in influence, but not in national exposure.

And he likes to have sex with other men.

As a libertarian-leaning Dem, I have no problem with that. Yet, if you make a living advocating that people who have gay sex shouldn't have the same rights as straight people, you deserve the heaping helpings of mockery, scorn, penury, and cries of "hypocrite" that you're going to get. Forever and ever amen.
posted by bardic at 4:16 PM on November 2, 2006


wtf - why would a post on this subject be deleted? this guy spoke with the president "everyday" ? influencing policy decisions. jeezus.
posted by specialk420 at 4:17 PM on November 2, 2006


Nussbaum, paraphrased: The bylaws state that when an allegation of immorality is made, this process is triggered, where he puts himself on leave. The outside board makes the final decision.

A lot of churches actually have bylaws like that -- at least, the ones large enough to merit media attention, etc. So he'd pretty much be required to do this no matter how innocent.

That said, his denials are rather... clintonesque. "I never had a homosexual relationship with a man in Denver?" What is this, a Mensa brain teaser? You just say, "No."
posted by verb at 4:17 PM on November 2, 2006


Anyone else remember this thread Turns out Haggard was the guy who ran the church profiled. Pretty interesting coincidence.

has any deleted thread ever been resurrected, in the history of MetaFilter?

I know of at least one instance, although I don't remember the specifics.
posted by delmoi at 4:18 PM on November 2, 2006


has any deleted thread ever been resurrected, in the history of MetaFilter?

I know of at least one instance, although I don't remember the specifics.


I think it was that thread about Lazarus.
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 4:19 PM on November 2, 2006 [6 favorites]


verb writes "'I never had a homosexual relationship with a man in Denver?'"

Hehe... it does sound an awful lot like a technical cop-out. Perhaps they were in a suburb of Denver at the time...
posted by clevershark at 4:20 PM on November 2, 2006


So I've been trying to find a picture of the aforementioned rentboy. Anybody?
posted by Pontius Pilate at 4:22 PM on November 2, 2006


Why do all these Christian Evangelicals keep sucking my cock?
posted by bardic at 4:22 PM on November 2, 2006 [3 favorites]


I saw a brief interview with him on the news. Looks pretty rough trade to me, with a definite Gannon vibe.

Seriously.
posted by bardic at 4:24 PM on November 2, 2006


Oh, man. I thought you were talking about Merle Haggard there for a minute.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 4:24 PM on November 2, 2006


This is alledgedly the home page of said male escort's massage business. The pictures there (95% SFW, no nudity) are a lot more flattering to this Mike Jones guy than the pic in the article tied to the deleted thread.
posted by clevershark at 4:26 PM on November 2, 2006


C'mon folks, give the man some credit. At least he was screwing grown men. Doesn't that count as standing up for family values and moral decency among today's right wing?
posted by rusty at 4:26 PM on November 2, 2006


Sweet. I still want to see the evidence online (jessamyn deleted the last post, btw).
posted by mathowie at 4:26 PM on November 2, 2006


And by Gannon-vibe, I mean that muscular-yet-beefy rather than totally ripped, semi-balding, military thing.

Is there slang for that yet?
posted by bardic at 4:26 PM on November 2, 2006


Oops, forgot the actual link in my last post :-)
posted by clevershark at 4:27 PM on November 2, 2006


If it were the New York Times instead of the Rocky Mountain News, the NYT would have held the story until next Thursday so as not to interfere with the 'sensitive' election situation, the way the Times did with Bush's illegal NSA spying.
posted by jamjam at 4:28 PM on November 2, 2006 [1 favorite]


Hillary Clinton drives another poor Christian to homosexuality!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:28 PM on November 2, 2006


Grind, grind, grind, grind, grind, grind
posted by fire&wings at 4:34 PM on November 2, 2006


From his website, "In the news", not completely up to date...
posted by growabrain at 4:34 PM on November 2, 2006


this is a case of the satanic gay agenda in action:

1 - infiltrate key, ahem, positions, in high-level evangelical GOP circles with gay moles pretending to be straight, anti-gay preachers

2 - instruct the moles to let themselves be caught by the press with, ahem, their pants down just a few days before an election, being cheerfully fisted by muscular, clean shaven young men

3 - ???

4 - profit!!!
posted by matteo at 4:36 PM on November 2, 2006


I'll admit that the timing here is awesome IMO. Dem base is fired up enough, and the key now is to hope as many social conservatives and evangelicals as possible are not willing to once again pinch their noses.
posted by bardic at 4:41 PM on November 2, 2006


I just got a Dremel for my birthday. And I found this really cool old pulaski axe in my garage. It's pretty rusty, but there seems to be enough good steel to save it. So you know what I'm going to be doing tomorrow? Literally grinding my axe. True story. I'll think of ya'll.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:43 PM on November 2, 2006


C'mon folks, give the man some credit. At least he was screwing grown men.

I don't get the "at least." What's wrong with what he did?

Or is my irony detector just miscalibrated?
posted by poweredbybeard at 4:44 PM on November 2, 2006


I think the parishioners will blame the guy for tempting him, i bet.
posted by amberglow at 4:45 PM on November 2, 2006


I read it and it still seems hypothetical. One dude claims he had sex with a preacher of a megachurch. There's no tapes, no photos, no proof. It's just hearsay at this point, total gossip with nothing to back it up.

Then why not delete the post?
posted by monju_bosatsu at 11:50 AM PST on November 2

Oh, man. I thought you were talking about Merle Haggard there for a minute.
posted by monju_bosatsu at 4:24 PM PST on November 2

That's quite a bit closer to 274 minutes, monju. And I didn't know Merle had picked up that megachurch gig. Thanks for the information!
posted by jamjam at 4:45 PM on November 2, 2006


Hate on the FPP because it's newsfilter, fine. But it ain't axe-grinding. This guy represents millions of Christian Americans. He had the president's ear. He is taking a spectacular fall.

If Michael Moore got caught being pegged by Ann Coulter, it would be mefi's job, nay, it's duty to comment upon it.
posted by bardic at 4:46 PM on November 2, 2006


> The more they rant, the more they're hiding.

You know, the thing I really can't stand about queers is they're all Evangelicals like this guy or Republicans like Foley or both. As Amberglow will be the first to tell you, the more you deny it, the more that proves it true.
posted by jfuller at 4:48 PM on November 2, 2006


He probably did sleep with Gannon/Guckert too: ... Every Monday he participates in the West Wing conference call with evangelical leaders. The group continues to prod the President to campaign aggressively for a federal marriage amendment. "We wanted him to use the force of his office to actively lobby the Congress and Senate, which he did not adequately do," says Haggard....

and from there: ...He staked out gay bars, inviting men to come to his church; ...

"come to his church" is some sexual invitation, obviously ; >
posted by amberglow at 4:49 PM on November 2, 2006


Well, looks like he couldn't bring himself to sign the Evangelical Climate Initiative, either. Chump.

And by the way, here are some actual paintings displayed in the New Life Church. Really. I'm not kidding.
posted by maryh at 4:54 PM on November 2, 2006 [3 favorites]


You know what I can't wait for? I can't wait for the day Tony Perkins is caught humping a dead, gay possum whilst jerking off a transsexual nun in a rabbit costume. That's going to be some g*d-damned interesting day!
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 4:55 PM on November 2, 2006


XD
posted by keswick at 4:56 PM on November 2, 2006


The group continues to prod the President...

heh heh...heh heh heh... heh heh...
/beavis
posted by maryh at 4:56 PM on November 2, 2006


maryh - that is amazing! My snark muscles are failing me ...
posted by rks404 at 4:59 PM on November 2, 2006


You said "prod," huh huhuhuhuhuh

/butthead
posted by keswick at 5:00 PM on November 2, 2006


"You'll find yourself right on some things and wrong on some other things. But, please, in the process, don't be arrogant."

--Ted Haggard
posted by luckypozzo at 5:01 PM on November 2, 2006


PrurientScandalFilter: Don "Choker" Sherwood paid his mistress half a million dollars to keep her mouth shut.

...just to show that Republican scandals aren't strictly a man-to-man affair. You know, "fair and balanced" and all that.
posted by clevershark at 5:03 PM on November 2, 2006 [1 favorite]


Gee, thanks jessamyn.
But for safety's sake, wear eye protection with that grinder, wouldn't want you blind blind, blind, blind, blind.
I suppose we all have our little axes.
posted by nofundy at 5:03 PM on November 2, 2006 [1 favorite]


AccuracyFilter: Sorry, make that "more than half of $500,000" to keep quiet.
posted by clevershark at 5:05 PM on November 2, 2006


Christ. What an asshole!

Christ: What an asshole!

posted by Extopalopaketle at 5:06 PM on November 2, 2006 [1 favorite]


I offer a deep tissue and swedish style massage with the pleasure of the man in mind. If you like a strong muscle man to bring pleasure to you then please call me. I am a muscle stud with a friendly personality and a caring heart. When the Broadway shows play in town the cast and crew call upon me for massage.

Rawr. No wonder he couldn't resist. I mean, come on, the cast and crew of Broadway shows call this guy when they're in town! Thanks for the link, clevershark.
posted by jokeefe at 5:07 PM on November 2, 2006


...of course, I refer to my neighbour Wally Christ, who never rakes his leaves nor mows his lawn.
posted by Extopalopaketle at 5:07 PM on November 2, 2006


Hilarious comments.
An even better thread I'd venture.
Thank you ericb.
Can we get that Harper's reference back about the statuary at his "church?"
posted by nofundy at 5:08 PM on November 2, 2006


Gay sex demons. (from May 2005)
posted by Armitage Shanks at 5:14 PM on November 2, 2006


I'm not an evangelical; emphatically so. I was raised evangelical, and left because the evangelicals are everything I hate about the modern world: slick, commercial, cool, easy, pop-psychologising, et cetera. They have no concept of their own religion, a religion I tend to have a lot of respect for.

But I have a really hard time feeling good about this. I mean, even if it were good to be happy about the downfall of an asshole (and I don't know that it is) this guy, from everything I know, has never been an asshole. His biggest crime, if you ask me, is being part of a culture of mediocrity. I haven't always agreed with the things he's said, but I've never heard him expressing those views in a violent or crude way like so many nut-job preachers have (say, Jerry Falwell.)

Just think about it for a moment: this guy has a wife, kids, who have to deal with the fact that he's been cheating on them. That's a hell of a burden.

Add to that the fact that schadenfreude is pretty disgusting when it comes down. I remember how bad it was when the Republicans brought Clinton down; how sad and sick it was to see people delighting in the fracturing of a guy's family because it brought them political gain. This isn't really different.

And it'd be nice if this were some sort of victory in the name of egalitarianism, but it's not. Human hypocrisy doesn't prove anything to anybody; this guy's moral weakness doesn't demonstrate that homosexuality is no less immoral than heterosexuality. Unfortunately, it'll probably make it worse.
posted by koeselitz at 5:20 PM on November 2, 2006 [8 favorites]


poweredbybeard: "At least" meaning "at least it wasn't teenage boys." By being an apparently normal homosexual man (albeit of the pay-for-play variety, which is rather distasteful for gays and non alike), Ted Haggard has probably done some good for the right wing image. I would think. In the "Ted Haggard proves evangelical right-wing not all pedophiles" kind of way.
posted by rusty at 5:20 PM on November 2, 2006


I think that's why jess deleted the last thread. I agree with it, if it was.
posted by koeselitz at 5:20 PM on November 2, 2006


This is why I would never become a gay prostitute. I bet half my customers would be evangelicals.
posted by obvious at 5:22 PM on November 2, 2006 [1 favorite]


the same one who told Richard Dawkins not to be arrogant

Heh. And another of his detractors, notorious creationist Kent Hovind was convicted of tax fraud today. Dawkins is a couple of days from the end of the U.S. portion of his book tour (for The God Delusion), and it does seem that the fates are conspiring to give him an interesting bon voyage.
posted by Creosote at 5:26 PM on November 2, 2006


Just think about it for a moment: this guy has a wife, kids, who have to deal with the fact that he's been cheating on them. That's a hell of a burden.

Too bad that didn't stop him.
posted by ernie at 5:26 PM on November 2, 2006


His biggest crime, if you ask me, is being part of a culture of mediocrity.

I would describe the big Evangelical churches' actions vis a vis cheerleading the Iraq War, getting Republicans elected, rallying against marriage rights, "curing" gays, and so forth as a little more than "a culture of mediocrity." More like a culture of repression, and worse.
posted by rxrfrx at 5:27 PM on November 2, 2006


From his website, Ted Haggard believes:

Hell: After living one life on earth, the unbelievers will be judged by God and sent to hell where they will be eternally tormented with the devil and the fallen angels (see Matt. 25:41; Mark 9:43-48; Heb. 9:27; Rev. 14:9-11; 20:12-15; 21:8).

Or to put it another way, he believes the universe is run by a despot who will send to eternal torment all those who fail to show appropriate fealty to the supreme leader.

I'm pretty happy to see a guy who thinks that way lose the ear of the president, although there are no doubt lots of others waiting to take his place.
posted by bowline at 5:29 PM on November 2, 2006


koeselitz: Clinton wasn't rallying thousands of followers against the Evil Demon of Blowjobs, and trying make sure that no one who engaged in oral sex could marry, or adopt, or in any way be permitted to lead a normal life in america. That's why this is different.

What all of these "moral crusader turns out to be a total hypocrite" stories always demonstrate is that the people who are the most vocally against something are usually drawn to that thing irresistably, and hate themselves for it. How many other ordinary gay men did this guy lure into his church and convince that they should hate themselves too? How much longer do we have to repeat this cycle?

Every one of them that falls is one less blot on humanity, and one more step toward freedom for all of us. Good riddance, and may the rest of them follow.
posted by rusty at 5:30 PM on November 2, 2006 [3 favorites]


rxfrx: "More like a culture of repression, and worse."

I'd wager that you don't know too many evangelicals, and that you only know them from what you see on TV and the Internet. Let me be the first to tell you, you usually have to talk to people before you can understand their culture.
posted by koeselitz at 5:31 PM on November 2, 2006


Koeselitz--that was an interesting and thoughtful post, but I will disagree with one point: ". I remember how bad it was when the Republicans brought Clinton down...This isn't really different."

It is different, and you yourself allude to the way it is: the hypocrisy. Clinton was never looked at as a beacon of virtue--he'd had his "bimbo eruptions" since he was first running for president. Haggard's job is/was to be a beacon of virtue. The schadenfreude you see here in the Blue is delight in the exposure of that hypocrisy.
posted by adamrice at 5:32 PM on November 2, 2006


Haggard preaching against homosexuality from the recent documentary 'Jesus Camp': YouTube video.
posted by ericb at 5:34 PM on November 2, 2006 [1 favorite]


rusty: "What all of these "moral crusader turns out to be a total hypocrite" stories always demonstrate is that the people who are the most vocally against something are usually drawn to that thing irresistably, and hate themselves for it."

By that logic, every person here, and Richard Dawkins too, is a closet evangelical. Somehow, I doubt it.

What a crappy argument.

Taking joy in the pain of others is always wrong.
posted by koeselitz at 5:35 PM on November 2, 2006


I remember how bad it was when the Republicans brought Clinton down; how sad and sick it was to see people delighting in the fracturing of a guy's family because it brought them political gain. This isn't really different.

I respectfully disagree. First off, Clinton's impeachment arguably helped him out. His polls actually went up, and many Republicans looked really bad and were flailing until 9/11 changed the political landscape for everyone.

I think it's a lot different for another reason. Bill Clinton didn't build his career on moralistic finger-pointing about the evils of sex outside of marriage. (Far, far from it.) Say what you will, but hypocrisy isn't Clinton's fatal flaw. Arrogance, hubris, and a willingness to use people for his own political ends? Take you pick from those three.

Human hypocrisy doesn't prove anything to anybody; this guy's moral weakness doesn't demonstrate that homosexuality is no less immoral than heterosexuality.

Ancient Greek playwrites would disagree with you, among others. Yes, I feel sorry for this guy's family, but let's not get too misty here -- the guy made a nice home for him and his through gay-baiting. When Christian Evangelicals start holding candle-light vigils every time a gay teenager commits suicide because of the hate thrown at them, maybe we can talk parity. Until then, say it loud: People telling you who you should and shouldn't fuck are probably fucking all kinds of people you don't know about. If there is a Christian God, these people (hypocrites and deceivers in general) are going to a far worse place than lil' ol' atheist me.
posted by bardic at 5:36 PM on November 2, 2006 [3 favorites]


Just think about it for a moment: this guy has a wife, kids, who have to deal with the fact that he's been cheating on them. That's a hell of a burden.

Then, let me be the first to welcome him to the g*ddamned real world, where the rest of us try to do better by our fellow citizens without jettisoning our critical thinking and reasoning skills. Where we strive to acknowledge our faults, without the promise of becoming eternal f*cking lotto winners.

Where we accept others, even with their shortcomings, because we can recognize our own. The real world. The one he's been pretending to be above and beyond.

Fuck this guy.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 5:37 PM on November 2, 2006 [5 favorites]


rusty and adamrice pretty much beat me to my main points.
posted by bardic at 5:38 PM on November 2, 2006


Give me a break.

I met him a decade ago. Along with my husband I talked to him one on one. My gaydar works just fine and his did not ping it.

It's right before an election, he is on record as being against same sex marriage along with his church, and he is a target.

Besides, do any of you believe for a minute that if this was true it would take THREE FREAKING YEARS for it to come to light????? As well known as he is????


So until some real proof comes along (and I ain't holding my breath) I'm certainly giving him the benefit of the doubt. As to him stepping down from his positions, I wouldn't expect him to do any less under the circumstances.
posted by konolia at 5:39 PM on November 2, 2006 [1 favorite]


koeselitz: Those kind, loving evangelicals who stand outside the Common Ground Fair entrance with the giant placards of what I assume they want me to believe are aborted fetuses? Or the ones who consistently deny gay men and women just like the good Rev. Haggard the same basic rights and freedoms straight people have?

I'm sure they're very nice to chat with, as long as you're just like them. Next time you hang out with some evangelicals who don't know you, tell them you're a gay Planned Parenthood employee. See how that goes.
posted by rusty at 5:41 PM on November 2, 2006 [1 favorite]


koeselitz: The difference is that this is not just a matter of private family anguish, though I imagine it will include that (of course we have no idea if his wife already knew about this or not, assuming it's true-- she may have, we just don't know). He is a hugely prominent figure who has used his moral authority over those entrusted to his spiritual care in the service of punishing his fellow gay citizens by campaigning against the right to marry as well as a laundry list of other offenses. They're already been enumerated here, so I won't repeat them. So I'm not going to celebrate his personal Gethsemane, but I will celebrate the downfall of his public moral authority, which I feel has been used in the service of bigotry and prejudice.
posted by jokeefe at 5:42 PM on November 2, 2006


Taking joy in the pain of others is always wrong.

I tend to agree. But while my giggles are inappropriate, the confirmation of my belief that the biggest moralists are often the biggest hypocrites isn't. And that power corrupts -- during the 80's and 90's, Christians were eager to jump into bed with Republican politicans. (Huh huh /beavis.) Now they're reaping what they've sown.

I hope his wife and kids can manage to live normal lives after this. My hunch is that they'd be best off moving far away from the same hypocrite-ennablers with which they've insulated themselves, and to try and live their own lives in the best way possible, as opposed to screeching at other people about how they should live their lives.
posted by bardic at 5:43 PM on November 2, 2006


My fear is that he didn't practice safe sex with either his wife or his male sex partner.
posted by TorontoSandy at 5:43 PM on November 2, 2006


konolia, I accuse you of consorting with prostitutes. You should quit your job now.

(That would be kind of silly, wouldn't it? You quitting your job because some random person accused you of something criminal and hypocritical? Unless there was, ya know, some merit. The guy obviously did it or he wouldn't have quit.)
posted by bardic at 5:44 PM on November 2, 2006


By that logic, every person here, and Richard Dawkins too, is a closet evangelical. Somehow, I doubt it.

Touche. That's actually a good point. I could argue against it, but I'm not actually fully convinced myself, so I will leave it alone to be thought upon.

Taking joy in the pain of others is always wrong.

I agree with that too. I feel bad about it. And most of my joy is not in Haggard's pain, but in the continued exposure of the hypocrisy and corruption underlying the megachurch evangelical movement and the "family values" right. But some of my joy is in the personal pain of someone I can't find anything but contempt for in my heart. And to that extent, I too am a bad person.
posted by rusty at 5:45 PM on November 2, 2006


bardic: "Ancient Greek playwrites would disagree with you, among others."

I'd like to know which one. Most of the ancient greek playwrights were big fans of rationality. Lots of them thought, as I do, that homosexuality is morally equivalent, and probably superior, to heterosexuality because of its nature, not because some guy cheats on his wife. In fact, saying that homosexuality is morally acceptable because some guy cheats on his wife doesn't even make sense. And the greek playwrights, as far as I know, liked things that make sense.

2sheets: 'I grew up in the south and know them all too well. Evangelicals are pigs. It's good to see one on the spit. Can you smell what's cooking, you hypocritical neo-hillbilly trash?"

Wow. This is going well. What a delightful thing to say.
posted by koeselitz at 5:45 PM on November 2, 2006


"This is the arrogant little asshole with his stadium-seating megachurch in Colorado Springs, the same one who told Richard Dawkins not to be arrogant."

Man, when I saw that show, the first thing I wanted to do was hit this guy as hard as I could. The next thought that crossed my mind was "boy, that guy is probably one creepily twisted hypocritical SOB with some appalling skeletons in his closet." And then I felt a little sorry for him. But I still wanted to hit him.

Thankfully, the real world is doing it for me! :)

This is exactly the kind of religious nutcase that Dawkins is 100% correct about. Nobody should ever allow someone like this to attain a position of power over them, nor look up to them as some kind of idol.

Haven't we, collectively, seen enough of these "false prophet" type assholes to know not to listen to one word they say yet?

I can usually recognize one of them after two or three sentences out of their mouth, how come so many people out there join their "flocks" so credulously??

And when you see your President (or other leader, as applicable) listening to such whack jobs, remove him from office as fast as possible.

Stupid arrogant bastard, Haggard. Enjoy the slide downwards. Try to catch yourself before you hit bottom...

"Taking joy in the pain of others is always wrong."

Well, ya got me there koeselitz. Sigh. I'm only human, and sometimes payback being a bitch induces satisfaction in me.

"Just think about it for a moment: this guy has a wife, kids, who have to deal with the fact that he's been cheating on them. That's a hell of a burden."

That is a tragedy. However, it's sort of an everyday tragedy, which will very unfortunately be amplified by the national news coverage. When I say "everyday," I mean that people cheating on their spouses and getting caught doing bad things happens every day, sort of a run-of-the-mill human behavior problem.

I feel very sorry for his family, as they are victims of his foolishness, but I agree with ernie that it's a shame this didn't stop the guy. Clearly he knows the difference between right and wrong, and that this behavior could destroy the lives of everyone around him?

Contrast that with the tragedies caused by discrimination against GLBTs, and Christian Crusaderism married with corporate greed and the world-domination ambitions of a group of megalomaniacs, in which this guy has been an active and vocal supporter and participant. This guy has been "advising" the President of the United States. Undoubtedly he has provided support for our disastrous foreign policy adventures, eh?

He's a part of a sick, twisted system, and as tragic as it is for him personally and for his loved ones - not to mention the people who've latched onto him as their conduit to God, the poor folks - he's just one of many towering egoes that need to be cut down to size for their blatant and evil hypocrisy.
posted by zoogleplex at 5:47 PM on November 2, 2006 [2 favorites]


And your "gaydar"? Please konolia, go drink a glass of sanity. Unless you've spent the summer on Fire Island recently, you're probably not an expert on the subject of who is and isn't gay.

He was probably paying the prostitute hush money and decided he could get away with stopping. Bad idea.
posted by bardic at 5:48 PM on November 2, 2006


Besides, do any of you believe for a minute that if this was true it would take THREE FREAKING YEARS for it to come to light????? As well known as he is????

Clinton continued doing what he did for what, 2 years before anyone knew about it? That's how affairs work -- both parties do it *in secret* and it only comes to light down the line when one party is tired of the secret arrangement.

Hopefully these voicemails and letters get online so we can see the evidence, though seeing him step down looks rather guilty. I remember Foley was gone before I ever saw a slutty IM online.
posted by mathowie at 5:49 PM on November 2, 2006


Yeah, chill, 2sheets. That was uncalled for.
posted by jokeefe at 5:50 PM on November 2, 2006


rusty: "I'm sure they're very nice to chat with, as long as you're just like them. Next time you hang out with some evangelicals who don't know you, tell them you're a gay Planned Parenthood employee. See how that goes."

I haven't done that. I have walked up to them and asked them to stop protesting before. And I've told my evangelical parents that I was having sex with my girlfriend, that I was moving in with her, and that I wouldn't be going to church any time soon. So before you talk to me about their hatred, know that I've experienced most of what it has to offer.
posted by koeselitz at 5:50 PM on November 2, 2006


"Ancient Greek playwrites would disagree with you, among others."

I think bardic is referring to the fact that in Greek Tragedy Hubris is often followed by Nemesis.
posted by ericb at 5:53 PM on November 2, 2006


Oh, and by the way:

"...the same one who told Richard Dawkins not to be arrogant."

What an idiot. I'm sure he spent his prayer time telling god to be less all-powerful; I imagine that was about as productive.

posted by koeselitz at 5:53 PM on November 2, 2006 [1 favorite]


"This guy, from everything I know, has never been an asshole. His biggest crime, if you ask me, is being part of a culture of mediocrity. I haven't always agreed with the things he's said, but I've never heard him expressing those views in a violent or crude way like so many nut-job preachers have (say, Jerry Falwell.)"

Well, let's see, Koeselitz. He preaches on and on about the evils of homosexuality, declares gays are going to hell, and advocates an anti-gay marriage amendment to his *millions* of followers.

Sounds like an asshole to me!
posted by mijuta at 5:53 PM on November 2, 2006


I was making a long-winded point that fatal flaws, usually in the form of hubris rather than hypocrisy, are the stuff of some great art and tragedy. This situation doesn't exactly qualify, but there's a common theme in demagogues gone off the rails. So yeah, I'm a giggly voyeur to this trash, but again rusty said it better than I did -- it's not delighting in the pain this causes his family as much as delighting in yet another example of IOKIYAChristian, a common variant on IOKIYAR.

More simply, the party of moral values isn't. Hell, the religion of moral values isn't. The more stuff like this comes to light, the more quickly these worthless memes will go away, hopefully.
posted by bardic at 5:53 PM on November 2, 2006


My gaydar works just fine

Does your gaydar flash a little red light, or is it the kind that makes a whoop-whoop sound?
posted by Armitage Shanks at 5:55 PM on November 2, 2006 [5 favorites]


has any deleted thread ever been resurrected, in the history of MetaFilter?

yes, this one was deleted because of subject matter but many protests caused matt to change his mind ...
posted by pyramid termite at 5:56 PM on November 2, 2006


If he was framed, stepping down seems like the wrong move. Its so easy to characterize that as an admission of guilt.

I wouldn't be suprised if he was framed, or if he like to suck a bit of dick now and again.

What a crazy bitch this life is, eh?
posted by dobie at 5:58 PM on November 2, 2006


rxfrx: More like a culture of repression, and worse.

Are you kidding me? Go reread your Foucault - these guys absolutely can't stop talking about sex and the radical sex demons who want to sex them up sexually. It's the furthest thing from repression imaginable!

Just as the Meese Report was its era's filthiest pr0n, the discourse of evangelicals is more jam-packed fulla hot steamy man-on-man action than anything from Colt Studios.
posted by adamgreenfield at 6:03 PM on November 2, 2006


Koeslitz, you have your experience with fundamentalists. I'm glad your parents didn't disown you. And "fundamentalists" can cover many degrees, from basically devout to frothing at the mouth. Many of my family fall at different parts of that spectrum. I used to, myself.

But, you know, sometimes comeuppance is deserved. Perhaps this man's falling off his pedestal will lessen the hatred that he has *dedicated his life* to fomenting against gays. To be honest, I don't care enough about him to want him to suffer. I just want him to be unable to keep spouting his hatred of gays (and others) in God's name. Because he's not doing God any favors. And if it takes a public scandal to do it, then so be it.

I'm sorry for his family, but it is him, not us, who is dragging them through the mud. He's the one who cheated on his wife, who made himself a visible symbol of homophobia. Take his family's pain up with him, not with us. Otherwise, people who do wrong would always be able to hide behind their families so no one could call them on it.
posted by emjaybee at 6:03 PM on November 2, 2006


Haggard: homosexuality is a “sin” and “devastating for the children of our nation and for the future of Western civilization.”
posted by ericb at 6:05 PM on November 2, 2006


Why does Matthowie hate black people huge cocks?
posted by bardic at 6:12 PM on November 2, 2006


"I met him a decade ago. Along with my husband I talked to him one on one. My gaydar works just fine and his did not ping it."

Konolia, maybe your gaydar is total crap? Because if you watch this video, you'll see what an obvious cock sucker he is.

(I say this as a cock sucker myself. A male cock sucker, that is.)
posted by mijuta at 6:14 PM on November 2, 2006 [1 favorite]


Perhaps this man's falling off his pedestal will lessen the hatred that he has *dedicated his life* to fomenting against gays.

My bet is he will join the Born Again Whatever, claiming it was the devil and abuse of some drug he now doesn't get anymore, but that now he talks with Jesus or something.

A stream of bullshit as usual.
posted by elpapacito at 6:15 PM on November 2, 2006


Never been to Fire Island BUT have had lots of experience being around and talking to gay people. Give me a break, most of you have gaydar too.

As to the stepping down part-a lot of large churches have this sort of procedure should accusations like this come up. Kinda like a cop going on desk duty or unpaid leave if he or she shoots someone in the line of duty. Doesn't mean they did anything wrong, it's simply standard procedure. Besides, I know if I were accused of something like this, my mind certainly would not be on work.

I cannot believe you all believe this without any shred of real evidence. Something like this could happen to anyone. It is frighteningly not uncommon in politics, where false accusations ruin lives and careers simply to protect the power of crooked politicians.
posted by konolia at 6:19 PM on November 2, 2006


I don't try to take joy in someone else's suffering, but there are only a few in this world who probably deserve it more.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:20 PM on November 2, 2006


koselitz, don't be lazy. there's an entire google of information out there if you actually care to learn about the influence of guys like Haggard on the president, and how this mainly worked to effect bigotry, mixing of church and state, and neocon-style fascism. The dude's own personal hypocrisy doesn't even need to enter into this, as much as it should.
posted by rxrfrx at 6:22 PM on November 2, 2006


Well, the evidence so far is that a gay male prostitute claims he had lots of sex with Ted Haggard. Nothing is confirmed yet, but that's evidence.

If that was totally baseless, Haggard should have denied, period, and gone on with his life.

Like I said, if a random stranger accused me of a criminal act, I'd deny it and go to work the next day. Because I haven't committed a criminal act for a while.

But in any event, if this is confirmed, please come back to this thread and remind us that because of his actions, Ted Haggard will burn in hell forever for being gay, a hypocrite, and a deceiver of his fellow Christians. That'd be good fun. Then get back out their with your keen "gaydar" and out some more sinners for us, you loon.
posted by bardic at 6:27 PM on November 2, 2006


My gaydar works just fine and his did not ping it.

Really? Mine spiked and shorted out from overload the second I saw him. It may not work, though. After all it goes off everytime I see a Tom Cruise movie.
posted by tkchrist at 6:27 PM on November 2, 2006


This November surprise proves that while God is neither a Democrat or a Republican, He sure doesn't want the GOP getting any traction from the Kerry kerfluffle.

And with Haggard's possible fall will come more allegations. It's 1987 all over again. And from the falls of Swaggart and Bakker and Roberts came the openings that led Robertson and Dobson and Haggard to the top of American Christianity.

The Christian church in America is about to go through another transformative cycle. The question is whether it's going to emerge looking more like Brian McLaren's Emerging Church or Mark Driscoll's neo-Reformed Movement.

For you atheists and non-Christians, this last bit is all irrelevant to you. Just know this: You're about to get a generation in the spotlight. Enjoy it, because soon enough Richard Dawkins is going to be spotted having gay sex with a Jehovah's Witness or saying "God bless you" when someone sneezes. And then, some other group replaces you. Probably a politicized Church of SubGenius campaigning for a constitutional amendment guaranteeing right to slack.
posted by dw at 6:28 PM on November 2, 2006 [1 favorite]


People I feel sorry for, in ascending order, if this turns out to be false:
* Pastor Ted's wife and children
* Pastor Ted
* millions of gay Americans who have to live with the effects of his homophobic bullshit

People I feel sorry for, in ascending order, if this turns out to be true:
* Pastor Ted
* Pastor Ted's wife and children
* millions of gay Americans who have to live with the effects of his homophobic bullshit
posted by Armitage Shanks at 6:28 PM on November 2, 2006


Bardic, I could talk about the sinfulness of assuming the worst about someone just because someone else said so.

That's enough to send someone to hell if they refuse to repent.
posted by konolia at 6:32 PM on November 2, 2006 [1 favorite]


I haven't done that. I have walked up to them and asked them to stop protesting before. And I've told my evangelical parents that I was having sex with my girlfriend, that I was moving in with her, and that I wouldn't be going to church any time soon. So before you talk to me about their hatred, know that I've experienced most of what it has to offer.

Take this in the best way you can: You have no idea what their hatred is, if that's your experience. That's not my opinion for you to disagree with, it's a fact for you to understand and accept.
posted by odinsdream at 6:34 PM on November 2, 2006 [1 favorite]


koeselitz: I gave it some more thought, and I actually think you're right about the "closet evangelical" thing. I can't speak for anyone else here, but here's what I find when I think about that. My original point essentially was that we have particular hatred and loathing for that which we envy and deny ourselves. Ok? So naturally, gay Rev. Haggard works out his issues by crusading against gays.

But I'm a farily outspoken athiest, and while I'm not out crusading anywhere, I feel a deep personal loathing for all kinds of fundamentalists, and religious ones in particular. So am I a closet evangelical? I find that basically I am. I envy the simple, uncomplicated worldview that fundamentalists can afford. There is Good and there is Evil. We are Good. We fight Evil. That's basically all there is to it. And for Christians, becoming Good is easy as falling off a log. "I accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior." Bada-bing! Done!

My own worldview is a lot more complicated than that. It involves thinking about issues in context, considering more than one side of any given issue, trying to determine what I think might be best for people in general and me in particular, trying to take into account the wisdom of a lot of really terrifyingly smart people who have been doing this since forever, and many of whom disagreed radically with each other. I have to worry about questions like "How can people figure out how to get along with each other and make the most of the infinitely short time that we have?" I have to try to understand what really drives people to do terrible things, individually and as whole societies, and how we can prevent these things from happening in the future.

I mean, no one has charged me with figuring it all out or anything, but I feel like it's everyone's responsibility to think about this stuff. And sometimes there are not any obviously good answers. It can make a thinking moral being feel pretty damn helpless sometimes.

So yes, I am in a way a closet evangelical. It would be so easy, so seductively easy to simply assign everything to one of two categories and go to town against the Evil stuff. It would be so much easier if I could get my entire ethos out of one convenient book. Or, even better, one convenient TV show, hosted by a guy who says he's read the one book. Who needs all the effort involved in being a rational moral actor anyway? Screw it. Let's go bash some fags and call it a day, right?

And the fact that I can feel that temptation, and completely understand and sympathize with it, makes me feel such an intense loathing for the hordes of people who have given in to it, or never even realized they had a choice.

So yes, I stand by my original claim, that what we envy and deny ourselves is what we hate the most. Including what that statement says about me.
posted by rusty at 6:34 PM on November 2, 2006 [21 favorites]


Ah, and you miss the point yet again. Men fucking other men isn't a sin. What's sinful is hypocrisy and deceit, on the scale of millions of people, i.e., his followers.

So if this a false accusation, I'm guilty of thinking that Haggard is gay when he isn't. What wouldn't change is that he's dedicated his life to sewing hatred against a minority group, and he's gotten rich doing it.

If he does like to suck cock, well, he's still a hateful bigot. But a hateful bigoted hypocrite as well.
posted by bardic at 6:35 PM on November 2, 2006


Blame it all on the gay agenda!
posted by ericb at 6:35 PM on November 2, 2006


Kinda like a cop going on desk duty or unpaid leave if he or she shoots someone in the line of duty. Doesn't mean they did anything wrong, it's simply standard procedure. Besides, I know if I were accused of something like this, my mind certainly would not be on work.

Only, you know, the difference is between someone being accused of doing something, and a cop actually shooting another human.

One thing actually happened, and the other thing is an accusation.
posted by odinsdream at 6:36 PM on November 2, 2006


konolia writes "Bardic, I could talk about the sinfulness of assuming the worst about someone just because someone else said so."

And yet you seem to be assuming that Jones is lying.
posted by clevershark at 6:36 PM on November 2, 2006 [1 favorite]


I cannot believe you all believe this without any shred of real evidence.

Wow! To hear these words from konolia... My irony detector just blew so hard it knocked out my gaydar.

I just got a Dremel for my birthday. And I found this really cool old pulaski axe in my garage. It's pretty rusty, but there seems to be enough good steel to save it. So you know what I'm going to be doing tomorrow? Literally grinding my axe. True story. I'll think of ya'll.

Dude, that's the fastest way to ruin the heat treat on the steel. A regular mill file works just fine.
posted by c13 at 6:37 PM on November 2, 2006 [1 favorite]


Re: the 'Gaydar' mini-thread - it was obvious, to me at least, while watching the Richard Dawkin's documentary several months ago that Haggard was gay.

And what about that video- fascinating for so many reasons:

An obviously gay man talking about 'processing',

the 'disassociated' character that refers to itself as 'we' rather than I,

the 'John Kerry' thing!,

and the "I've never had sex with a man in Denver" action.

I wonder how much suffering this man has caused to his parishioners by inflicting his message that homosexuality is wrong.
posted by jettloe at 6:39 PM on November 2, 2006


I cannot believe you all believe this without any shred of real evidence.

I was fairly skeptical, until he claimed to have voicemails. If he's lying, that's a pretty bold claim to make. One way or the other, we'll know real soon.

There are various stories in the Old Testament about God letting the Hebrews stray into sin for years and years before finally laying the smackdown on them. I imagine one could write quite a sermon on the parallels to our current situation.
posted by EarBucket at 6:42 PM on November 2, 2006


(That would be kind of silly, wouldn't it? You quitting your job because some random person accused you of something criminal and hypocritical? Unless there was, ya know, some merit. The guy obviously did it or he wouldn't have quit.)

I'll reiterate: I'm no fan of Haggard's, but yes. The 'morality scandal' issue is something that churches and religious institutions tend to either ignore completely and brush under the carpet, or take very seriously. Most large churches have rules about this kind of thing: if you're accused of something that goes against the church's basic beliefs or moral precepts, and you're in a leadership position, you step down temporarily while things get sorted out and the truth of the matter is resolved. It's happened to folks I know, and it's not -- in and of itself -- news.

Mind you, I find his weirdly precise denials a bit odd, and it's the kind of story that I dont' find difficult to believe at all based on my experience in the church. But stepping down for the duration of an investigation into the matter is SOP for megachurches and minichurches and what not.
posted by verb at 6:44 PM on November 2, 2006


emjaybee: Perhaps this man's falling off his pedestal will lessen the hatred that he has *dedicated his life* to fomenting against gays.

Unfortunately, however it affects Haggard, I think his flock will learn to be more homophobic.

This gives them a tremendously negative example of homosexuality, doubtlessly added to an already biased sample set. They'll see a community leader fed to the flames he helped ignite. They'll see homosexuality conflated with the crime of prostitution, the secrecy and shame of adultery. And, possibly, they'll see all of it framed by the destruction of a marriage and a career.

What homophobic people need to see, fear to see, is a successful, adjusted homosexual relationship. A marriage, if you will. This sort of example will only make them worse.
posted by kid ichorous at 6:47 PM on November 2, 2006 [1 favorite]


konolia: Something like this could happen to anyone. It is frighteningly not uncommon in politics, where false accusations ruin lives and careers simply to protect the power of crooked politicians.

Too true. I was falsely accused of something bad several years ago. It was awful. Even though the person making the accusation had zero credibility, and anyone who cared to look into the matter knew that he was a flake, there still were people who believed the accusations.

If someone who is mentally unstable decides to accuse you of something bad, there's not much you can do about it other than to allow "the process" to exonerate you in the eyes of those who are willing to base their opinions on evidence. That's why I'm going to wait until there's more information before I start drawing any conclusions.

So far as I can tell, Haggard is doing what the procedures of his church say he's supposed to do when such accusations are made. He's the head of an organization that has encouraged churches to develop these processes for handling accusations, and now you all think that if he's really innocent he would refuse to allow "the process" to work, and if he is following the stated process it must be a sign of guilt?
posted by peeping_Thomist at 6:50 PM on November 2, 2006


I wonder how much suffering this man has caused to his parishioners by inflicting his message that homosexuality is wrong.


Replace "homosexuality" with pedophilia and see how that reads.

I am not disagreeing with the fact that homosexuals go thru pain out of nonacceptance. I submit that pedophiles do as well. That does not mean that either act is acceptable or not sinful. For that matter, adulterers probably don't appreciate being told that that is sin. Murderers? Well, I think most of them have no problem admitting that murder is a sin, interestingly.

If you don't claim God as your authority figure by all means do as you will. You can do nothing else. But Ted has made a profession of following God, therefore he will believe as I do that certain actions are sin against a holy God. If these accusations do turn out to be true I will be truly flabbergasted.

In contrast I had no problem believing Swaggart messed up.
posted by konolia at 6:53 PM on November 2, 2006


I, by the way, have gaynar -- I can detect homosexuals through sound.
posted by TheWash at 6:53 PM on November 2, 2006 [7 favorites]


So this is the guy that wanted to dictate what morality should be for all of us? And he fucks gay hookers and takes meth while we are compelled by the government to do what he says?

Sorry - I'm laughing myself silly over this and I don't even feel vaguely bad about it. He deserves a lot worse for his arrogance and this whole event, weirdly enough, makes me feel like there is a god up there, dishing out some old testament style poetic justice.
posted by rks404 at 6:56 PM on November 2, 2006


konolia writes "Replace 'homosexuality' with pedophilia and see how that reads."

Why is it that the "religious" have so much problem differentiating homosexuality from pedophilia? Why the obsessive need to associate the two?
posted by clevershark at 6:58 PM on November 2, 2006


Replace "homosexuality" with pedophilia and see how that reads.

How dare you equate the two?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:59 PM on November 2, 2006


Oh no, you did NOT just equqte consensual adult sex with child molesters.
posted by ltracey at 7:00 PM on November 2, 2006


"equqte" = "equate" (see Blazecock Pileon above.)
posted by ltracey at 7:01 PM on November 2, 2006


“They're pro-free markets, they're pro-private property, they're pro-felching man ass” he said. “That's what evangelical stands for.”
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:03 PM on November 2, 2006


What homophobic people need to see, fear to see, is a successful, adjusted homosexual relationship. A marriage, if you will.

As before (in the deleted thread) --

Gay marriage has actually helped strengthen the institution of marriage in Scandanavia.
"Seventeen years after recognizing same-sex relationships in Scandinavia there are higher marriage rates for heterosexuals, lower divorce rates, lower rates for out-of-wedlock births, lower STD rates, more stable and durable gay relationships, more monogamy among gay couples, and so far no slippery slope to polygamy, incestuous marriages, or 'man-on-dog' unions."

[Wall Street Journal | October 27, 2006]

posted by ericb at 7:03 PM on November 2, 2006 [2 favorites]


konolia: If you don't claim God as your authority figure by all means do as you will. You can do nothing else.

Not true. God has impressed the natural law upon the heart of every person. Even when someone is so depraved as to deny the existence of God, the natural law remains at the core of that person's being, commanding him or her to do what is right. That's why we spend so much time listening to music and watching tv and surfing the net and so on: we are all afraid of silence because if we don't keep up a steady stream of distractions we might hear the still, small voice at the center of our hearts, and be forced to confront the gap between who we are and who we know we should be. Better to whistle past that particular graveyard, thank you very much.
posted by peeping_Thomist at 7:04 PM on November 2, 2006 [4 favorites]


Replace "homosexuality" with pedophilia and see how that reads.

Replace "Konolia" with "wingnut fruitcake" and see how that reads.

Not that I'm equating the two of course.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 7:06 PM on November 2, 2006 [4 favorites]


That does not mean that either act is acceptable or not sinful.

And, by all means, don't eat shrimp! God Hates Shrimp.
posted by ericb at 7:07 PM on November 2, 2006


God has impressed the natural law upon the heart of every person. Even when someone is so depraved as to deny the existence of God, the natural law remains at the core of that person's being, commanding him or her to do what is right.

When you're making something up, you can make it up however you want. Fantasizing is cool until you mistake it for reality.
posted by jsonic at 7:09 PM on November 2, 2006


God hates figs.
posted by EarBucket at 7:10 PM on November 2, 2006 [1 favorite]


Proof that fundamentalists selectively quote the Bible: A lesson about the book of Leviticus.
posted by ericb at 7:10 PM on November 2, 2006


"The moral hypocrisy and intellectual constipation of Bible literalists."
posted by ericb at 7:12 PM on November 2, 2006


From the comments on the onegoodmove video site: "Why is it when I look at Pastor Ted, I can't help but think: "This guy has had a man's dick in his asshole . . . many, many times . . .""
It'd be fine if it were a woman's dick, though.
posted by fish tick at 7:13 PM on November 2, 2006


Forget the men lying with men shctick ...

Women must not wear gold or pearls (1 Timothy 2:9).

A woman must not "teach or... have authority over a man" (1 Timothy 2:12).

People must not "not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material" (Leviticus 19:19).

Men must not shave (Leviticus 19:27).

People must not eat rabbit (Leviticus 11:6), pork (Leviticus 11:7), or shellfish (Leviticus 11:9-12).

It is "disgraceful" for a woman to speak out in church (1 Corinthians 14:34-36) and that if she has any questions, she should wait till she gets home and ask her husband.

The penalty for going to work on Sunday (Exodus 35:1-3) is death.

The man who rapes a virgin should buy her from her father (Deuteronomy 22:28-29) and marry her.
posted by ericb at 7:18 PM on November 2, 2006 [1 favorite]


And what exactly did Jesus and those twelve single young virile men who followed him have to say about homosexuality anyway?
posted by ericb at 7:20 PM on November 2, 2006


Konolia, newsflash: not all gays wear horns and forked tails so as to be easily recognizable by good christian woman like yourself. Just a little tidbit of information to help you along your way.
posted by Hildegarde at 7:20 PM on November 2, 2006


"Replace 'homosexuality' with pedophilia and see how that reads. I am not disagreeing with the fact that homosexuals go thru pain out of nonacceptance. I submit that pedophiles do as well. That does not mean that either act is acceptable or not sinful."

Oh, konolia, you just lost any shred of accountability you were striving for. You can go on with the ludicrous and patently false claim that homosexuality is akin to pedophilia (Criminology 101: the overwhelming percentage of pedophiles are heterosexual), but eventually reality is going to catch up to you.

And you were trying to convince people that you had gaydar and that you talk to gay people? Yeah, maybe you work for one of those ex-gay organizations.

I'm not surprised by your self-righteous and judgmental comments. It's typical of evangelicals, who from their holier-than-thou pedestals love to condemn others--and are the quickest to cry foul when someone accuses one of their own of hypocrisy. (See, for example, your defending Haggart. How does it feel to get a taste of your own medicine?)

By the way, you should check out the book WHAT THE BIBLE REALLY SAYS ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY. I think you'd be flabbergasted by how deeply you've been brainwashed.
posted by mijuta at 7:24 PM on November 2, 2006


Konolia: Not like you couldn't have figured this out or anything, but what the hell, here goes anyway.

You can determine what in your list is "a sin" (I'll use terms you're comfortable with here) or not without God's Law by examining if someone is harmed by it. So:

* Consenting adult gay couples have sex? No one harmed. Therefore no sin.

* Man has sex with child? Child is hurt. Therefore: Sin.

* Adultery: Usually the faithful spouse is hurt, and family stability in general is a good thing for society, so Sin. Extra bonus sin if you've screwed up a family with kids, who will also be hurt. And if you conduct your adultery as a public figure whose family will be totally dragged through the gutter in extremely public ways, well you've hit the sin jackpot.

* Murder: Person murdered is hurt, and also prevented from doing anything else they might have done in life, and so forth for ramifications that ripple far beyond that specific person. Usually murderer suffers quite a bit as well. So, also, sin.

What you see there above is a rational, internally consistent moral system, which does not depend on some imaginary being to lay down arbitrary rules. And it's probably worth noting that my system and yours agree on all those sins except the one in which no one is harmed. That is, teh gay.

I am fully aware that you can construct a moral system with a diety at the top of it, supposedly telling you what to do. When are you going to conquer your ignorance to the extent of realizing that you can also make one that does not involve a diety? I won't ask you to believe in it, but simply to acknowlege that it can be done.
posted by rusty at 7:25 PM on November 2, 2006


That would be kind of silly, wouldn't it? You quitting your job because some random person accused you of something criminal and hypocritical? Unless there was, ya know, some merit. The guy obviously did it or he wouldn't have quit.

The bylaws [of the National Association of Evangelicals] state that when an allegation of immorality is made, this process is triggered, where he puts himself on leave. The outside board makes the final decision.

now, which part of that do you not understand?
posted by quonsar at 7:25 PM on November 2, 2006


Sin is what God says it is. Period.
posted by konolia at 7:32 PM on November 2, 2006 [1 favorite]


Good thing we sorted that one out.
posted by Hildegarde at 7:35 PM on November 2, 2006 [2 favorites]


Who is this 'God' character of which you speak?
posted by jettloe at 7:35 PM on November 2, 2006


konolia: Awesome. More shrimp for me!
posted by rusty at 7:35 PM on November 2, 2006 [2 favorites]


You know, that same gaydar that flashes a red light whenever an evangelical tells another man he's "bringing [his] desire to the surface so he can eliminate it," is the same gaydar that pings when I see GWB. Really.
posted by maxwelton at 7:36 PM on November 2, 2006


Let's all be really quiet and see if we can hear what God's telling us!

Oh no - wait, he wrote it all down! Don't question why we think an ancient book of mythology was really actually written by God, though. Just assume it is. It's easier to not question anything.
posted by odinsdream at 7:37 PM on November 2, 2006


The bylaws [of the National Association of Evangelicals] state that when an allegation of immorality is made, this process is triggered, where he puts himself on leave.

Gaping Denial-of-Service Vulnerability.