Comments on: Comments on 5611

Post number 5611

remo — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:46:02 -0800

Virginia's Senate passes bill to make students pledge allegiance. Scary quote from the bills sponser ``I personally don't believe anybody should be allowed to object on a philosophical basis,'' he told fellow senators Tuesday.

By: milnak

milnak — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:50:17 -0800

Judging by the spelling ability demonstrated on MF, it might have been more judicious to pass a bill to make students learn how to read and write their native language.

By: isildur

isildur — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:54:52 -0800

If it does get through the House of Delegates, which I doubt it will, then it would be overturned on its first challenge. The bill is clearly unconstitutional.

By: raku

raku — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:57:15 -0800

This quote said everything I could hope to (not that I'll stop there): Sen. Janet D. Howell — "Insecure governments usually impose symbols of patriotism on their youth. Totalitarian governments always impose symbols of patriotism on their youth,'' she said. "My fear is we're moving in that direction.'' It seems to me that freedom of speech includes the freedom not to be forced to speak, and Rep. Barry's insistence that his bill isn't an infringement of the 1st Amendment because "there isn't anything in here that says you're going to be lined up against the wall and shot or anything'' is ludicrous. That the poll results on the article's site show almost 40% support for Barry's position is very disturbing also.

By: wackybrit

wackybrit — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:58:34 -0800

I thought all American kindergarten/elementary kids had to pledge allegiance when they started school anyway. Personally I don't see the problem with pledging allegiance even if you don't believe in it. After all, we all lie through our teeth most of the day anyway, so what does saying some dumb words really mean? "Yada yada yada I pledge allegiance to this flag, etc etc" So what? It's not as if some lawyer is going to sue you in the future if you 'break' this pledge. These pepped up religious folk need to think things through in simplistic terms rather than act like total a**holes and generate a whole pile of bureaucracy and red tape where it's not needed.

By: remo

remo — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:00:56 -0800

I caught the "sponsor" error right after I posted this. Apologies to all the self appointed spelling and grammar police out there.

By: Doug

Doug — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:03:51 -0800

WackyBrit, I think you're missing the point of the opposition to this bill. People aren't upset by the fact that they one day may break that pledge, which really would kinda be impossible considering the wording. It's upsetting to think that our government can force us to pledge allegience to it. It's very contradictory, because forcing a pledge is pretty much against the spirit of America. I would never, in a million years, be forced to pray, for instance, and those are just a bunch of words also.

By: delfuego

delfuego — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:13:55 -0800

Welcome to our new compassionately conservative government; fear what Bush could do to the Supreme Court, and what it would mean to the various legislature's ability to pass laws like this without fear of review.

By: jpoulos

jpoulos — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:14:30 -0800

I think it would make a great lesson for my child, if he were faced with this law--a lesson in civil disobedience. If such a law were passed in my state, I wouldn't let him stand for the pledge, and deal with the consequences together. He'd appreciate the value of free speech for the rest of his life.

By: Postroad

Postroad — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:36:02 -0800

It doesn't take much reading of these comments on MF to see that most posters are left wingers! bitch, bitch, bitch. We are after all one nation under The Supreme Court, and if you don't believe in god, then go to some commie country. How many posters made a plege to love, honor and obey etc etc when they married AND THEN BROKE THAT PLEDGE? Begin by breaking the little things and before you know it, you will have broken lots of litle things.

By: bliss322

bliss322 — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:38:32 -0800

Warren E. Barry (R) PO Box 1146 Fairfax 22030-1146 wbarry@erols.com 703.321.0900

By: jpoulos

jpoulos — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:46:48 -0800

Postroad, please refer to the comment above about using MeFi's spellchecker. Not only are your posts always hard to stomach, they're usually hard to read. We are after all one nation under The Supreme Court... No, we're one nation under the Constitution. It always amazes me that those who use a convoluted interpretation of the second amendment to protect the right of children to have their heads blown off are so frightened of the first amendment--which is truly at the foundation of our nation. Pledge on, automaton.

By: kindall

kindall — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:52:05 -0800

if you don't believe in god, then go to some commie country Why?

By: Doug

Doug — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:54:52 -0800

Wait, Postroad was serious?

By: bkdelong

bkdelong — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:56:22 -0800

and if you don't believe in god, then go to some commie country. What kind of troll statement is that? Oh...I see. Thanks for clearing that up. Despite my religion I have to believe in the Christian god to be an American? That happens to be what the Pledge of Allegiance refers to, yes? I'd love to hear what the rest of the Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Baha'is and Pagans have to say about that...

By: Postroad

Postroad — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:02:42 -0800

jpoulos --I am sorry you find it hard (difficult?) to read and to stomach my posts. And excuse me for citing the Court rather than the constituion. I was not sure but knew it was under wear you had mentioned (spell check?)...you won't have me to kick around any more...and for bkdelong: do you mean we got rid of the Jews and now have pagans and others of that ilk still here? Pledge for me is for furniture polishing

By: lileks

lileks — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:09:49 -0800

What if a child is mute? Would the Senator insist he use semaphore flags to chant along with everyone else? Or perhaps stamp it out in Morse code? Ridiculous. I have fond memories of saying the Pledge in grade school, but I have equally fond memories of inventing alternative words. Half the kids were saying something else, for that matter, but as long as we mumbled in cadence, the teacher couldn't tell.

By: terrapin

terrapin — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:10:54 -0800

Besides the language of ignorant bigotry, what language is Postroad writing? And are there rules about expounding racist comments in one's posts on MeFi?

By: sonofsamiam

sonofsamiam — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:23:00 -0800

Postroad is being facetious, I'm pretty sure.

By: Postroad

Postroad — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:26:11 -0800

goshl golly, guys. Lighten up. In a post there was no mention made about Jews, thpough so many others were mentioned. After all, we have a very powerful lobby group that runs the country and so we ought to get mentioned too. I try to write in English but so far the bi-lingual program not yet mastered (or mistressed).

By: Avogadro

Avogadro — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:26:26 -0800

And he's channeling the the spirit of Tricky Dick! (.wav) ;-)

By: holgate

holgate — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:34:29 -0800

There's also the implicit compulsion for non-citizens to pledge allegiance to a flag and republic that aren't theirs. (And not for want of trying in many cases, given the time taken by the INS to process naturalisation requests.) It's ludicrous legislation by petty legislators.

By: bkdelong

bkdelong — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:40:36 -0800

Actually, Postroad, I didn't mention Jews because I believe they worship the same god as Christians, Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses.

By: bkdelong

bkdelong — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:42:37 -0800

The Pledge of Allegiance has an interesting history.

By: beth

beth — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:55:04 -0800

Of course, there's always Bongo's version.

As I recall there have been several other versions in the Life In Hell comics...

By: sonofsamiam

sonofsamiam — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:56:02 -0800

That is interesting that it was written by a socialist. Uniformity and unanimity. With our republic. An' like that.

By: beth

beth — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:57:30 -0800

Ah, here's another version, from here:

I pledge allegiance to and wrap myself in the flag of the United States Against Anything Un-American and to the Republicans for which it stands, two nations, under Jesus, rich against poor, with curtailed liberty and justice for all except blacks, homosexuals, women who want abortions, Communists, welfare queens, treehuggers, feminazis, illegal immigrants, children of illegal immigrants, and you if you don't watch your step.

It's from 1994, but it still applies today...

By: tomorama

tomorama — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 13:06:36 -0800

I agree with whoever said they would forbid their kids to stand and say the pledge. I remember in high school (private school), they would say a prayer over the loud speaker. Everyone had to stop what they were doing, stand and pray along. I never said one word of it, not because I don't beleive in God (I do), but simply because I wasn't going to be forced to pray. I got some looks, but no one ever went so far as to confront me.

By: snarkout

snarkout — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 13:13:34 -0800

Criminy, Utopian novelist Edward Bellamy's cousin wrote the Pledge of Allegience? Thanks, BK, that's a fascinating bit of historical trivia.

By: rcade

rcade — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 13:27:17 -0800

This law is a clear violation of the 1943 Supreme Court decision West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette, which ruled that laws requiring a flag salute and pledge of allegiance by public school children were unconstitutional. West Virginia expelled kids who were Jehovah's Witnesses and would not salute or pledge.

"If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us. ... We think the action of the local authorities in compelling the flag salute and pledge transcends constitutional limitations on their power and invades the sphere of intellect and spirit which it is the purpose of the First Amendment to our Constitution to reserve from all official control." -- Justice Robert Jackson

By: thomas j wise

thomas j wise — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 13:29:34 -0800

I'm genuinely baffled. The last time I checked, Jehovah's Witnesses refused to say the pledge on _religious_ grounds. Has this changed? Do JWs no longer count? Doesn't this amount to, um, forced blasphemy? I'd think that any religious person of any faith would find the implications here somewhat troubling. On a related note: how many kids actually understand what the Pledge of Allegiance _means_? None of my teachers ever bothered to explain it...

By: sugarfish

sugarfish — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 14:07:41 -0800

i was never forced to say the pledge when i was a kid, but i was forced to stand out in the hall when i refused to say it. *shrug*

By: aaron

aaron — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 14:25:26 -0800

The last time I checked, Jehovah's Witnesses refused to say the pledge on _religious_ grounds. Has this changed?

It was 1943. Things were different then. And fundamentalists have always considered JWs to be almost as low as Satanists; I wouldn't be surprised if, at the time, the West Virginia authorities simply refused to consider JW to be a legitimate religion.

By: crunchland

crunchland — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 14:36:42 -0800

My country 'tis of thee, sweet land of liberty, of the icing... When I was a kid, I always wondered when we'd get the cake.

By: webmutant

webmutant — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 14:38:04 -0800

I think it would make a great lesson for my child, if he were faced with this law--a lesson in civil disobedience. If such a law were passed in my state, I wouldn't let him stand for the pledge, and deal with the consequences together. He'd appreciate the value of free speech for the rest of his life. Wait -- what? You would force your child to take the ideological stand you want him to, make the civil disobedience gesture you want him to make -- and that's going to teach him the value of free speech? Well, wait, actually, I guess it would. But probably not the way you'd intended.

By: daveadams

daveadams — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 14:55:48 -0800

I'd think that any religious person of any faith would find the implications here somewhat troubling Well, except maybe some conservative Christians who feel that Jehovah's Witnesses are members of a cult. And it's okay to persecute cults, of course.

By: Postroad

Postroad — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:31:06 -0800

Those who belong to fringe religous groups--cults--claim that all mainstream religions began as cults. How does one distinguish between what some would call a cult and what some believe to be religious groups?

By: gramcracker

gramcracker — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 16:13:37 -0800

The only real difference between a cult and an organized religion is its acceptance in society. Religion is tough to define--but there are generally 4 parts to most religions: 1) An explanation of the Real or the Ultimate 2) An explanation of the human condition, or human problem 3) The relationship between #1 and #2 4) Practices, traditions, beliefs, rites, etc., associated with the belief system.

By: ritualdevice

ritualdevice — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:53:56 -0800

I'm just about through with X-ians demanding that I leave this country because I happen to not believe in their (or any other) god. Attn Christians: The US is not your exclusive country. Grow up and realize that you have to share your world with people who are not like you. Get over it. Take responsibility for your own actions. Let other people live their lives as they choose, after all, we only get one chance. If you're so convinced that there's a better world waiting for you, by all means, leave this one at your earliest convenience. If you must insist on believing in convenient faerie tales, please keep them to yourself and never use them as an excuse to violate my personal freedom.

By: Avogadro

Avogadro — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 19:14:40 -0800

Thank you for tarring all Christians with the same broad brush, ritualdevice. By the bye, Postroad was joking.

By: kindall

kindall — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 19:59:33 -0800

The main difference is that cults usually (not always) revolve around a single individual who is alive at the time the cult begins.

By: croutonsupafreak

croutonsupafreak — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 20:13:26 -0800

Ahem. What most people don't seem to be getting, is that if this bill passes, it really only obligates teachers to set aside a time to say the pledge. If a kid doesn't want to, s/he doesn't have to. Earlier versions of the bill made reciting it mandatory, or suspension would result until the kid brought a note from a clergy member. This is obviously ridiculous, especially in Fairfax County, a suburb of DC. Diplomat's kids go to school here -- you expect the British ambassador's kid to pledge allegiance to someone else's flag? There's also a large Muslim population in the county, who, if I'm not mistaken, would be forbidden to pledge allegiance to anyone/thing but Allah. Atheist kids, who presumably don't have clergy, would obviously be screwed, as would any non-affiliated spiritual/religious folks. And then there's the whole freedom of speech issue. But as it stands now, the bill just says everyone has to say the pledge ... unless they choose not too. Still a big waste of time in a state that already mandates a minute of silence at the beginning of every day. How many more precious hours of teaching time can we chisel away at with meaningless gestures?

By: snarkout

snarkout — Wed, 31 Jan 2001 20:39:49 -0800

There's also a large Muslim population in the county, who, if I'm not mistaken, would be forbidden to pledge allegiance to anyone/thing but Allah. I don't see why that should be the case -- nothing in the Koran, so far as I know and barring certain Islamic nationalist interpretations, precludes pledging allegience to a secular nation (although, you know, come to think of it, pledging allegience to a flag smacks of idolatry). Any Muslims on MeFi want to give a thumbs up/down on the Pledge? OTOH, references to a monotheistic God might well bother any Hindus in the fair Virginny school system.

By: raku

raku — Thu, 01 Feb 2001 11:07:50 -0800

Aside from all the religious implications, it's still disturbing to me that we would require children to pledge allegiance to anything en masse in this way. I don't think it's the most harmful thing that could happen in terms of civil liberties (had to do it myself in school for many years), but it seems at odds with our stated principles as outlined in the BofR. And based on my own experience, I don't think it even has what I believe to be the intended effect. My respect and love for my country has much more to do with my adult understanding of our system and what it offers than 6 years spent pledging at the top of the school day. Maybe we'd be better off putting more into basic civics education instead of spending time and money in these types of battles.

By: Dreama

Dreama — Thu, 01 Feb 2001 11:34:37 -0800

Yet another fine example of the era of rah-rah, feel good, do nothing legislation from and for the brainless. Between this and the Sleep In Your Bed and No Where Else legislation discussed ad nauseum early in the week, I think the question that Virginians need to ask themselves is "Who are these jackasses we're electing?"

By: mikewas

mikewas — Thu, 01 Feb 2001 11:41:30 -0800

Persoanlly, I'm scratching my head that so many Virginia legislators seem to have nothing better to do than write stupid laws. Unfortunately, we can't even write them off as being from the backwoods, because too many of them are from *ahem* "civilization" up here 'round DC. Then again, that may be a large part of the problem.

By: holgate

holgate — Thu, 01 Feb 2001 11:57:22 -0800

It's typical of local government: I remember the council in Middlesbrough declaring a "nuclear free zone" in the 80s, even though the town is seven miles away from the nuclear power plant in Hartlepool. Local government -- and I think this applies to state government in the US -- is too often the place for those without the nous to go further. (I give you Ms Katherine Harris.)

By: croutonsupafreak

croutonsupafreak — Thu, 01 Feb 2001 12:43:32 -0800

I think the question that Virginians need to ask themselves is "Who are these jackasses we're electing?" I've been asking myself all week. I know I didn't vote for them. I think part of the problem is that even though 40% of the population of Virginia is in the DC suburbs, only 25% of the General Assembly comes from these northern parts (it's wacky, like the electoral college). As a result, the northern Va. delegates have to do all sorts of shit just to prove they're real down home Virginians so they can get other laws passed, like road construction funding laws. And even these, they don't get as many of as they want to.

By: rodii

rodii — Thu, 01 Feb 2001 12:45:05 -0800

The nous?

By: holgate

holgate — Thu, 01 Feb 2001 14:13:42 -0800

The nous, rodii.

By: rodii

rodii — Thu, 01 Feb 2001 17:15:17 -0800

Wow. That's like British Yiddish. Briddish.

By: rodii

rodii — Thu, 01 Feb 2001 17:49:33 -0800

'cuz I know you're dying to know, my previous botched post was a link to the nous.