Janis Joplin in Festival Express
November 12, 2006 4:14 PM Subscribe
On Metafilter, much as in life... when someone tells you "trust me, it's worth it", more often than not you should not trust them and it is not worth it.
Holds true in this case, for me at least.
posted by cadastral at 4:31 PM on November 12, 2006
Holds true in this case, for me at least.
posted by cadastral at 4:31 PM on November 12, 2006
Yeah, I recognized that second clip from Festival Express, which was a great documentary.
posted by mathowie at 4:37 PM on November 12, 2006
posted by mathowie at 4:37 PM on November 12, 2006
God,that woman is missed. Strange to say, as a man, but I always related to her. And all the Lillith Fair wannabes and 'womyn's music' types have a long way to go before they're fit to carry her amps.
posted by jonmc at 4:38 PM on November 12, 2006
posted by jonmc at 4:38 PM on November 12, 2006
I dunno if it should be ignored because it's false or if it's just redundant.
"Trust me, it's worth it" is pretty much the MetaFilter tagline, isn't it? Isn't that the implication of any posted link?
(Would "Trust me, it's worth it." fit up there under the logo football?)
posted by j-dub at 4:38 PM on November 12, 2006
"Trust me, it's worth it" is pretty much the MetaFilter tagline, isn't it? Isn't that the implication of any posted link?
(Would "Trust me, it's worth it." fit up there under the logo football?)
posted by j-dub at 4:38 PM on November 12, 2006
(Janis, of course, is always 'worth it'.)
posted by j-dub at 4:39 PM on November 12, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by j-dub at 4:39 PM on November 12, 2006 [1 favorite]
I always liked Janis Joplin but somehow never got around to buying any of her albums. (Mostly because she died years before I started buying records.) Thanks for the post.
posted by notmtwain at 4:42 PM on November 12, 2006
posted by notmtwain at 4:42 PM on November 12, 2006
Hey Chuckles, thanks for the post, but this is actually Metafilter and not VH1.com. Peace, brah!
posted by stemlot at 4:54 PM on November 12, 2006
posted by stemlot at 4:54 PM on November 12, 2006
chillmost: I remeber watching you sing along with 'Down On Me' on a bar jukebox.
(I don't mean to say that there hasn't been any good music from women since Janis passed. Bjork and PJ Harvey among others, have acquitted themselves quite well, but Janis was the Mother of them all and I miss her)
posted by jonmc at 5:17 PM on November 12, 2006
(I don't mean to say that there hasn't been any good music from women since Janis passed. Bjork and PJ Harvey among others, have acquitted themselves quite well, but Janis was the Mother of them all and I miss her)
posted by jonmc at 5:17 PM on November 12, 2006
(Mostly because she died years before I started buying records.)
Look at Elvis. Well, not really a direct look since you'd need a shovel, but the records are still out there and selling quite well after the demise. Of course Janis is no Elvis so perhaps your record buying habits aren't a slur on the livingly-challenged.
posted by stirfry at 5:19 PM on November 12, 2006
Look at Elvis. Well, not really a direct look since you'd need a shovel, but the records are still out there and selling quite well after the demise. Of course Janis is no Elvis so perhaps your record buying habits aren't a slur on the livingly-challenged.
posted by stirfry at 5:19 PM on November 12, 2006
And all the Lillith Fair wannabes and 'womyn's music' types have a long way to go before they're fit to carry her amps.
Where can I find these straw womyn?
posted by liam at 5:20 PM on November 12, 2006
Where can I find these straw womyn?
posted by liam at 5:20 PM on November 12, 2006
Goddamn that woman had a pair of lungs.
According to allmusic.com "Summertime" has been covered 2,155 times. I'll put money down that no one touches her version.
posted by gwint at 5:20 PM on November 12, 2006
According to allmusic.com "Summertime" has been covered 2,155 times. I'll put money down that no one touches her version.
posted by gwint at 5:20 PM on November 12, 2006
Of course Janis is no Elvis
In many ways, she could be called the female Elvis.
posted by jonmc at 5:20 PM on November 12, 2006
In many ways, she could be called the female Elvis.
posted by jonmc at 5:20 PM on November 12, 2006
Where can I find these straw womyn?
here's some names: Holly Near, Sarah McLachlan, Paula Cole, Melissa Etheridge, Janis Ian, Liz Phair, etc.
(all the aforementioned have contributed work of value, but it would all be inconcievable without Janis' innovations is what I'm saying)
posted by jonmc at 5:25 PM on November 12, 2006
here's some names: Holly Near, Sarah McLachlan, Paula Cole, Melissa Etheridge, Janis Ian, Liz Phair, etc.
(all the aforementioned have contributed work of value, but it would all be inconcievable without Janis' innovations is what I'm saying)
posted by jonmc at 5:25 PM on November 12, 2006
waste of time and resources.
//down with metaYouTubefilter//
posted by localhuman at 5:32 PM on November 12, 2006
//down with metaYouTubefilter//
posted by localhuman at 5:32 PM on November 12, 2006
Jonmc: Next time someone posts perfomances by Muddy Waters, be sure to note that Mick Jagger and Robert Plant aren't fit to carry his amps.
posted by liam at 5:37 PM on November 12, 2006
posted by liam at 5:37 PM on November 12, 2006
jonmc, wouldn't that be Felvis?
I like Janis just fine, its YouTube I can't stand.
posted by fenriq at 5:40 PM on November 12, 2006
I like Janis just fine, its YouTube I can't stand.
posted by fenriq at 5:40 PM on November 12, 2006
Jonmc: Next time someone posts perfomances by Muddy Waters, be sure to note that Mick Jagger and Robert Plant aren't fit to carry his amps.
OK, overstatement, point taken. I just remember an online conversation I had once where someone said to me that 'janis Joplin has never been less relevant,' and it stuck with me. So, I tend to get defensive about her.
posted by jonmc at 5:43 PM on November 12, 2006
OK, overstatement, point taken. I just remember an online conversation I had once where someone said to me that 'janis Joplin has never been less relevant,' and it stuck with me. So, I tend to get defensive about her.
posted by jonmc at 5:43 PM on November 12, 2006
From the documentary with that interview I linked earlier, a couple of clips of the studio session for Summertime. You've got to admit, the greatness of that track isn't all Janis.
posted by Chuckles at 5:47 PM on November 12, 2006
posted by Chuckles at 5:47 PM on November 12, 2006
(and to be fair, as much as Janis means to me, I'd rank Ronnie Spector just above her in my personal pantheon of rock and roll goddesses)
posted by jonmc at 5:48 PM on November 12, 2006
posted by jonmc at 5:48 PM on November 12, 2006
I can't tell you how often - in completely inappropriate contexts - I attempt to summon that haggard, mileaged, rich voice and rasp out "It's all the Same Fucking Day, man..." because it can be said no better than it was by her and her life. Most kids these days have no idea what the hell I'm talking about, but then, they're too busy bowling on my lawn to care I suppose.
posted by freebird at 5:55 PM on November 12, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by freebird at 5:55 PM on November 12, 2006 [1 favorite]
According to allmusic.com "Summertime" has been covered 2,155 times. I'll put money down that no one touches her version.
I'd take that bet,with odds.
Not to dismiss Joplin's version, which is grand, but this song was mastered before she was born.
posted by Bookhouse at 5:57 PM on November 12, 2006
I'd take that bet,with odds.
Not to dismiss Joplin's version, which is grand, but this song was mastered before she was born.
posted by Bookhouse at 5:57 PM on November 12, 2006
I'd also put Bessie Smith, Rahsaan Roland Kirk, and even the Billy Stewart version up against Joplin's.
I freakin' love the Billy Stewart version. Brrrrrrrrr brat chu chuck chu chu chuck Summertime!
posted by Astro Zombie at 6:04 PM on November 12, 2006
I freakin' love the Billy Stewart version. Brrrrrrrrr brat chu chuck chu chu chuck Summertime!
posted by Astro Zombie at 6:04 PM on November 12, 2006
Oh, and Janis Martin was the female Elvis.
posted by Astro Zombie at 6:06 PM on November 12, 2006
posted by Astro Zombie at 6:06 PM on November 12, 2006
I don't think I've heard the Rahsaan version - but anyone who can make me drrroooooool over The Entertainer the way he does can probably blow a damn good Summertime. I'll have to track that down.
posted by freebird at 6:06 PM on November 12, 2006
posted by freebird at 6:06 PM on November 12, 2006
Texas -> San Fran -> heroin -> death
Not worth it. Well, 20 years ago I would have enjoyed this, but these days I just see the sadness in it all, I guess.
posted by intermod at 6:09 PM on November 12, 2006
Not worth it. Well, 20 years ago I would have enjoyed this, but these days I just see the sadness in it all, I guess.
posted by intermod at 6:09 PM on November 12, 2006
Fuck the haters Chuckles... I appreciated the post.
posted by i_am_a_Jedi at 6:15 PM on November 12, 2006
posted by i_am_a_Jedi at 6:15 PM on November 12, 2006
What i_am_a_Jedi said. Thanks, Chuckles.
posted by madamjujujive at 6:27 PM on November 12, 2006
posted by madamjujujive at 6:27 PM on November 12, 2006
here's some names: Holly Near, Sarah McLachlan, Paula Cole, Melissa Etheridge, Janis Ian, Liz Phair, etc.
(all the aforementioned have contributed work of value, but it would all be inconcievable without Janis' innovations is what I'm saying)
um, janis ian's first album was done in 1967 ... and two more names that need mentioning in this ... joni mitchell and laura nyro, who owe nothing to janis
posted by pyramid termite at 6:34 PM on November 12, 2006
(all the aforementioned have contributed work of value, but it would all be inconcievable without Janis' innovations is what I'm saying)
um, janis ian's first album was done in 1967 ... and two more names that need mentioning in this ... joni mitchell and laura nyro, who owe nothing to janis
posted by pyramid termite at 6:34 PM on November 12, 2006
I'll put money down that no one touches her version.
Feh. My favorite version doesn't even have lyrics.
Since we're youtubing MeFi, here's Sam and Dave with Booker T and the MG's.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:36 PM on November 12, 2006
Feh. My favorite version doesn't even have lyrics.
Since we're youtubing MeFi, here's Sam and Dave with Booker T and the MG's.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 6:36 PM on November 12, 2006
If You Meet The Buddha on the Road, Kill Him!
"I prefer the madness of Don Quixote de la Mancha to the sanity of most other men."
Thanks Chuckels.
posted by Huplescat at 6:45 PM on November 12, 2006
After the movie came out, there was some interesting press about Ken Walker, the grouchy guy who put the concert together. A Globe and Mail article is behind a registration wall, so I'll self-link here, where I excerpted just part of it.
posted by stevil at 6:49 PM on November 12, 2006
posted by stevil at 6:49 PM on November 12, 2006
Sarah McLachlan, Paula Cole
(all the aforementioned have contributed work of value
Ummm... ok we'll let that slide. Janis was cool and made some good music. But I think her "innovation" is overstated. She broke down the wall of the boy's club of rock and roll (along with her contemporary Grace Slick), but women had been singing/fronting bands in other genres forever: blues, folk and especially country.
If we are talking about pure voice I don't think Janis comes within a mile of Tammy Wynette, just to name one. And although she was influential, I don't think she deserves credit for every female singer since (even if the "piece of my heart" prove-how-much-of-a-soulful-white-girl-you-are cover is now a requirement)
And if I had to name women who have made a serious contribution in rock since then, I's say Joan Jett and Jenny Lewis. But that's just me.
posted by drjimmy11 at 7:00 PM on November 12, 2006
(all the aforementioned have contributed work of value
Ummm... ok we'll let that slide. Janis was cool and made some good music. But I think her "innovation" is overstated. She broke down the wall of the boy's club of rock and roll (along with her contemporary Grace Slick), but women had been singing/fronting bands in other genres forever: blues, folk and especially country.
If we are talking about pure voice I don't think Janis comes within a mile of Tammy Wynette, just to name one. And although she was influential, I don't think she deserves credit for every female singer since (even if the "piece of my heart" prove-how-much-of-a-soulful-white-girl-you-are cover is now a requirement)
And if I had to name women who have made a serious contribution in rock since then, I's say Joan Jett and Jenny Lewis. But that's just me.
posted by drjimmy11 at 7:00 PM on November 12, 2006
Personally, I don't give a shit about the historicity. I love the barely controlled rage, and the unstoppable momentum.
It is funny, she seems to attract haters in much the way Yoko Ono does.
posted by Chuckles at 7:18 PM on November 12, 2006
It is funny, she seems to attract haters in much the way Yoko Ono does.
posted by Chuckles at 7:18 PM on November 12, 2006
Thanks stevil! Wow..:
in the fall of 1998, (...) Walker tried to kill himself by jamming a Second World War-vintage .38-calibre pistol owned by his jeweller father into his mouth, and pulling the trigger as two astonished police constables watched. The bullet blew through the top of his skull and into the ceiling of the basement family room of what was then his Richmond Hill, Ont., home.posted by Chuckles at 7:21 PM on November 12, 2006
The rest of Festival Express is worth seeing, too.
posted by muckster at 7:44 PM on November 12, 2006
posted by muckster at 7:44 PM on November 12, 2006
Temporal Temper a very short short story
"Who are you?"
"A time traveller."
"Am I supposed to believe you?"
"No."
"Where are you from?"
"A future without you in it."
"Why are you here?"
"To create a future where you survive next Sunday."
"Yeah right. Charlie? Bruno? Get this jackass outta here."
"Have you recorded that birthday greeting yet for John Lennon?"
"Wait.. What?"
"About a month from now, John Lennon tells Dick Cavett he didn't get to hear your birthday greeting until after you're already dead. You really wanna be a downer for John's birthday?"
"Okay smartass. How do I die?"
"Heroin overdose."
"I ain't a psychic or a time traveller and I could guess that's how I'm gonna go--"
"So I have agents all over California. From our research in police records, customs, boat and airplane shipments, we know where all the drug activity is in America this very minute. You may have noticed how difficult it was to find your drugs this morning?"
"..."
"We narc'd. The cops know where all that junk is, and those leads will accelerate the FBI's efforts to stop drug trafficking by about a decade. They're undergoing a major crack down right now. By Sunday night you won't be able to find a gram this side of Vegas, much less afford it."
"Is that right?"
"Yep."
"Bruno? He's lying right?"
"..."
"Bruno?"
"Our wells started drying up yesterday morning. Jack is looking into other connections, but.."
"Well... Time traveller? Sounds like you've gone to a lot of trouble for little old me."
"A lot of people miss you, Miss Joplin."
"Is that right? Well you tell those people I don't wanna live in a future where I can't fucking kill myself with heroin by my own choice if I fucking want to. You got that?"
"Yes ma'am."
"You gonna call off the fuzz?"
"No ma'am. We done all we can. The rest is up to you."
"You're leaving?
"I was going to offer more help, but we can't go further without your permission, and you're obviously not interested in giving it."
"Where you going?"
"To see if your heart is still beating Monday morning. See you then."
posted by ZachsMind at 7:48 PM on November 12, 2006 [1 favorite]
"Who are you?"
"A time traveller."
"Am I supposed to believe you?"
"No."
"Where are you from?"
"A future without you in it."
"Why are you here?"
"To create a future where you survive next Sunday."
"Yeah right. Charlie? Bruno? Get this jackass outta here."
"Have you recorded that birthday greeting yet for John Lennon?"
"Wait.. What?"
"About a month from now, John Lennon tells Dick Cavett he didn't get to hear your birthday greeting until after you're already dead. You really wanna be a downer for John's birthday?"
"Okay smartass. How do I die?"
"Heroin overdose."
"I ain't a psychic or a time traveller and I could guess that's how I'm gonna go--"
"So I have agents all over California. From our research in police records, customs, boat and airplane shipments, we know where all the drug activity is in America this very minute. You may have noticed how difficult it was to find your drugs this morning?"
"..."
"We narc'd. The cops know where all that junk is, and those leads will accelerate the FBI's efforts to stop drug trafficking by about a decade. They're undergoing a major crack down right now. By Sunday night you won't be able to find a gram this side of Vegas, much less afford it."
"Is that right?"
"Yep."
"Bruno? He's lying right?"
"..."
"Bruno?"
"Our wells started drying up yesterday morning. Jack is looking into other connections, but.."
"Well... Time traveller? Sounds like you've gone to a lot of trouble for little old me."
"A lot of people miss you, Miss Joplin."
"Is that right? Well you tell those people I don't wanna live in a future where I can't fucking kill myself with heroin by my own choice if I fucking want to. You got that?"
"Yes ma'am."
"You gonna call off the fuzz?"
"No ma'am. We done all we can. The rest is up to you."
"You're leaving?
"I was going to offer more help, but we can't go further without your permission, and you're obviously not interested in giving it."
"Where you going?"
"To see if your heart is still beating Monday morning. See you then."
posted by ZachsMind at 7:48 PM on November 12, 2006 [1 favorite]
Sorry, I must of missed something...or is this only for Joplin lovers?
posted by seriocomic at 8:00 PM on November 12, 2006
posted by seriocomic at 8:00 PM on November 12, 2006
Sorry, I must of missed something
you of made that abundantly clear.
posted by quonsar at 8:09 PM on November 12, 2006
you of made that abundantly clear.
posted by quonsar at 8:09 PM on November 12, 2006
It was worth it, thanks.
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:14 PM on November 12, 2006
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:14 PM on November 12, 2006
Jesus Christ that woman had fucking heart, damn!
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:16 PM on November 12, 2006
posted by Divine_Wino at 8:16 PM on November 12, 2006
Here is more of the footage from her high school reunion.
"What do you think about your town since you've left and come back?"
"It's fanTAStic! I was across the river at the Pellican club last night, never had more fun in my life!... Except sometimes in California I have more fun."
posted by Brave New Meatbomb at 8:34 PM on November 12, 2006
"What do you think about your town since you've left and come back?"
"It's fanTAStic! I was across the river at the Pellican club last night, never had more fun in my life!... Except sometimes in California I have more fun."
posted by Brave New Meatbomb at 8:34 PM on November 12, 2006
I like Janis just fine, its YouTube I can't stand.
I don't get it. How can you like Janis and not like YouTube, which makes it possible for you and me and everyone with a computer to have access to videos of her performances? You might as well say "I like recording artists, it's recordings I don't like." I don't get it.
posted by languagehat at 8:37 PM on November 12, 2006
I don't get it. How can you like Janis and not like YouTube, which makes it possible for you and me and everyone with a computer to have access to videos of her performances? You might as well say "I like recording artists, it's recordings I don't like." I don't get it.
posted by languagehat at 8:37 PM on November 12, 2006
Love Janis, very, very much, but am I missing something? (Other than yes, we can find footage of performances on the internet.)
posted by desuetude at 8:39 PM on November 12, 2006
posted by desuetude at 8:39 PM on November 12, 2006
I like the Web just fine -- but I could do without HTML.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:42 PM on November 12, 2006
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:42 PM on November 12, 2006
I guess this is common knowledge, but she died age 27 in 1970 of heroin. Easy to forget how young she was (probably only 25 in the Cry Baby video).
posted by stbalbach at 8:47 PM on November 12, 2006
posted by stbalbach at 8:47 PM on November 12, 2006
Ohhhh. Thank you. That version of "Cry Baby" is a bonus on my copy of Pearl and it's far and away my favorite song and performance of hers.
Easy to forget how young she was
Only a couple years older than I am now, but man, if I have that much soul and fire by the time I'm eighty...
posted by hippugeek at 9:05 PM on November 12, 2006
Easy to forget how young she was
Only a couple years older than I am now, but man, if I have that much soul and fire by the time I'm eighty...
posted by hippugeek at 9:05 PM on November 12, 2006
She crammed 45 years of living into those 27 years, and sure as hell looked it.
I was talking to a cop friend about how deep her voice was, and speculating why. He said "heroin".
posted by BrotherCaine at 9:24 PM on November 12, 2006
I was talking to a cop friend about how deep her voice was, and speculating why. He said "heroin".
posted by BrotherCaine at 9:24 PM on November 12, 2006
languagehat, its part of my enigmatic nature. I do love recording artists but deeply loathe recording companies and their executives. Is that one easier to understand?
posted by fenriq at 9:29 PM on November 12, 2006
posted by fenriq at 9:29 PM on November 12, 2006
(probably only 25 in the Cry Baby video).
Both videos in the post were from the Festival Express tour. In the doc, it plays out as one in Toronto, the other in Calgary, but that could be editing. Only 3 months before she died.
posted by Chuckles at 9:35 PM on November 12, 2006
Both videos in the post were from the Festival Express tour. In the doc, it plays out as one in Toronto, the other in Calgary, but that could be editing. Only 3 months before she died.
posted by Chuckles at 9:35 PM on November 12, 2006
This last summer we were in Port Arthur Texas, and visited the Museum of the Gulf Coast. I most enjoyed the petrochemical display and the Janis Joplin memorabilia. My favorite artifact was Janis' slide rule.
In my mind's eye, I can easily see Janis doing all sorts of crazy things, but I really have to work to envision her manipulating the old Kueffel and Esser...
posted by Tube at 9:57 PM on November 12, 2006
In my mind's eye, I can easily see Janis doing all sorts of crazy things, but I really have to work to envision her manipulating the old Kueffel and Esser...
posted by Tube at 9:57 PM on November 12, 2006
Not to derail*, but why am I supposed to like Janis Joplin? I have yet to hear a song she doesn't scream and that really doesn't do anything for me. If it's her songwriting abilities, well, I guess I'll have to do without her genius.
*Really! The mister likes her and he hasn't/can't explained it to me so I "get it".
posted by deborah at 10:21 PM on November 12, 2006
*Really! The mister likes her and he hasn't/can't explained it to me so I "get it".
posted by deborah at 10:21 PM on November 12, 2006
Until I was in my twenties I would have agreed with you. One day I was doing laundry in residence, across the hall people were playing pool and blasting some blues. Over the next half hour I gradually realized, that's Janice Joplin, and she's fucking brilliant!
You've got to like music rough around the edges to get it, but there is a line between screaming and singing, somewhere.. That day, my ear kicked me in the brain, and I realized that Joplin does it right.
posted by Chuckles at 11:26 PM on November 12, 2006
You've got to like music rough around the edges to get it, but there is a line between screaming and singing, somewhere.. That day, my ear kicked me in the brain, and I realized that Joplin does it right.
posted by Chuckles at 11:26 PM on November 12, 2006
Relevant and influential does not always equal good.
posted by Dagobert at 4:59 AM on November 13, 2006
posted by Dagobert at 4:59 AM on November 13, 2006
Yeah, deborah, I feel the same way. Watching parts of those clips I view her more as the female Meatloaf than the female Elvis.
posted by papercake at 5:54 AM on November 13, 2006
posted by papercake at 5:54 AM on November 13, 2006
deborah-
Have you heard her sing the blues? I don't mean her wailing rock 'n roll blues (which I love as well) but quieter songs like Trouble In Mind? I didn't totally get her either until I heard her sing "What Good Can Drinkin Do", especially considering how she lived her life. It is so simple but it just rips me apart. I also prefer Big Mama Thornton's (a blues singer) original version of Ball and Chain.
posted by bobobox at 6:33 AM on November 13, 2006
Have you heard her sing the blues? I don't mean her wailing rock 'n roll blues (which I love as well) but quieter songs like Trouble In Mind? I didn't totally get her either until I heard her sing "What Good Can Drinkin Do", especially considering how she lived her life. It is so simple but it just rips me apart. I also prefer Big Mama Thornton's (a blues singer) original version of Ball and Chain.
posted by bobobox at 6:33 AM on November 13, 2006
The Voice is one thing, of course. On another level, when I see her clips today, I find just laying eyes on her for the duration of a song invigorating. A real face -- animated and contorted and crinkly. A real body -- sort of sweetly flat-chested. Her own kooky outfits. No makeup! Nothing concocted in committee, crafted by stylists, nipped, tucked. She's so unmediated in comparison to what I've gotten used to as 'performance' it's like she's from another planet.
posted by thinkpiece at 7:16 AM on November 13, 2006
What Saellys said. But would it have killed you to mention "janis" in your post somewhere?
No, it wouldn't. It wouldn't have killed you at all.
posted by mediareport at 8:53 AM on November 13, 2006
No, it wouldn't. It wouldn't have killed you at all.
posted by mediareport at 8:53 AM on November 13, 2006
Loved it. Good post.
posted by puddinghead at 9:10 AM on November 13, 2006
posted by puddinghead at 9:10 AM on November 13, 2006
Nope, haven't heard any quiet songs from Janis; didn't know she did any. I'll check with the mister and see if he has any of those.
posted by deborah at 4:16 PM on November 13, 2006
posted by deborah at 4:16 PM on November 13, 2006
[good]
posted by LinusMines at 6:42 PM on November 13, 2006
posted by LinusMines at 6:42 PM on November 13, 2006
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