Peace sign angers neighbors

November 27, 2006 1:04 PM

But some residents have children serving in Iraq!A homeowners association in Colorado has threatened to fine a resident $25 a day until she removes a Christmas wreath with a peace sign that some say is anti-Iraq war. (picture of offending wreath).

Jeff Heitz, of the association board, sent a letter to Lisa Jensen saying: "Loma Linda residents are offended by the peace sign displayed on the front of your house. ...

Past peace sign overreactions include "'Peace' T-shirt gets man arrested" and "What A Girl Wants poster controversy"... so what's so wrong with peace?
posted by DougieZero1982 (184 comments total)

so what's so wrong with peace?

No profit.
posted by nofundy at 1:07 PM on November 27, 2006 [3 favorites has favorites]

The first volley in the "War on Christmas" I predict.
Just wait 'till O'Really gets his falafel on this!
posted by nofundy at 1:08 PM on November 27, 2006

There'll be no "peace on Earth / goodwill toward men" nonsense this Christmas, young lady!
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:10 PM on November 27, 2006 [1 favorite has favorites]

Bob Kearns sounds like quite the uptight asshole.
posted by bshort at 1:15 PM on November 27, 2006

It's Jesus peace, not hippie peace.
posted by InfidelZombie at 1:15 PM on November 27, 2006 [3 favorites has favorites]

The arsehole guard involved in the peace teeshirt thing was fired, even though he says he was only following orders. After being targetted by civil liberties protestors, the mall management company dropped the charges.
posted by meehawl at 1:16 PM on November 27, 2006

When Kearns ordered the association's architectural control committee to require Jensen to remove the wreath removed, they refused. Jack Lilly, chairman of the group, said it decided it was merely a seasonal symbol that didn't say anything. Lilly also said he had received no complaints from homeowners. Kearns fired all five members of the committee.

A+++ WOULD IMMOLATE BASIC FOUNDING PRINCIPALS OF NATION THROUGH PSEUDO-LEGAL MANIPULATION OF SUBDIVISION ORDINANCES AGAIN!!!11
posted by prostyle at 1:16 PM on November 27, 2006 [11 favorites has favorites]

Also, Love & Understanding: what's so funny 'bout them?
posted by jonson at 1:19 PM on November 27, 2006

Kearns ordered the [architectural control] committee to require Jensen to remove the wreath, but members refused after concluding that it was merely a seasonal symbol that didn't say anything. Kearns fired all five committee members.

This guy is awesome.
posted by chunking express at 1:19 PM on November 27, 2006

Peace sign? Looks like a chicken's footprint to me.
posted by ColdChef at 1:22 PM on November 27, 2006

The funniest/saddest thing about that Amanda Bynes' matter was that I thought she was flashing V for Victory, not a peace sign. Doesn't anyone at the studio read history?
posted by etaoin at 1:25 PM on November 27, 2006

What? This is stupid from all angles. Tell me, why do people want HOAs? ugh.
posted by tev at 1:26 PM on November 27, 2006

Another asshat HOA president with nothing better to do than act like a busybody.
posted by drstein at 1:26 PM on November 27, 2006

Next up: Rainbow wreath.
posted by Artw at 1:26 PM on November 27, 2006

"The War on Peace" God, is that fucking sad...
posted by lobstah at 1:27 PM on November 27, 2006

DEAR USA: GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.
posted by jimmythefish at 1:31 PM on November 27, 2006

I predict that Bob Kearns will be visited by three ghosts the night before Christmas.

And the next day, he'll still be an asshole.
posted by quin at 1:32 PM on November 27, 2006

This will be on The Daily Show within a month.

Peace is very threatening.
posted by defenestration at 1:32 PM on November 27, 2006

Peace is apparently not only unpatriotic, it's downright unChristian.
posted by leftcoastbob at 1:33 PM on November 27, 2006

How nice it is to live in a free country. Good thing we're spreading this freedom concept around the world.
posted by gt2 at 1:34 PM on November 27, 2006 [2 favorites has favorites]

It's totally true. That inverted pentagram thing? Total Hollywood myth.

All the real satanists I know get their black mass on under the mistletoe.
posted by and hosted from Uranus at 1:35 PM on November 27, 2006

DENVER - A homeowners association in southwestern Colorado has threatened to fine a resident $25 a day until she removes a Christmas wreath with a peace sign that some say is an anti-Iraq war protest or a symbol of Satan. (emphasis mine)

Huh?
posted by SBMike at 1:37 PM on November 27, 2006

Peace. What is it good for. Absolutely nothing.
posted by stbalbach at 1:39 PM on November 27, 2006

LOMA LINDA PROPERTY OWNERS ASSOCIATION [phone]
posted by StrasbourgSecaucus at 1:39 PM on November 27, 2006 [3 favorites has favorites]

Oh, Satan is a big proponent of peace.
posted by found missing at 1:39 PM on November 27, 2006

OK, I'll play devil's advocate, here.

The subdivision's convenants say no signs, billboards or advertising are permitted without the consent of the architectural control committee.

Clearly, the people who complained and this Kearns guy are [insert epithet here]. But this lady signed onto these bylaws when she bought into this community. If she likes free speech so much, then why is she providing money to an organization that stifles it?
posted by gurple at 1:40 PM on November 27, 2006

Y'know, I want to be sympathetic and all, but if you willingly move into a neighborhood where other people get to tell you things like what kind of mailbox you can have, you're pretty much asking for a dicking.

And Bob Kearns is just the kind of guy who'll give it to you.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 1:40 PM on November 27, 2006 [3 favorites has favorites]

no signs, billboards or advertising are permitted without the consent of the architectural control committee

A wreath's not a sign, a billboard, or an advertisement.
posted by StrasbourgSecaucus at 1:42 PM on November 27, 2006 [2 favorites has favorites]

(high-fives mr_crash_davis)
posted by gurple at 1:44 PM on November 27, 2006

Also, it should be noted that this woman is keeping the wreath up in protest of this lunacy even though the fines will cost her around $1000. I wonder if she's accepting donations. Obviously there are more worthy causes that need money, but it seems to me that this block is sorely in need of a peace sign.
posted by SBMike at 1:47 PM on November 27, 2006

That particular peace sign actually opposes nuclear technology. Without nuclear power, we need to consume more coal and oil. Logically, calls for less nuclear energy imply conflict over alternative energy sources, such as oil. Eevry time you display the CND peace symbol, you are implicitly calling for more Iraq-like wars.
posted by b1tr0t at 1:47 PM on November 27, 2006 [2 favorites has favorites]

a symbol of Satan. (emphasis mine)

Huh?

To many True Believers, a peace sign is really just an inverted cross with the arms broken and pointed downward. to HELL!!!

srsly.

Also, they hate Ron Jim Dio's logo because if you turn it upside down, it says "Devil".
posted by First Post at 1:50 PM on November 27, 2006

b1tr0t, you're silly.
posted by DenOfSizer at 1:51 PM on November 27, 2006

Eevry time you display the CND peace symbol, you are implicitly calling for more Iraq-like wars.

So why would the parents of soldiers be upset? More Iraq-like wars means job security for their kids!
posted by Tacos Are Pretty Great at 1:53 PM on November 27, 2006

And you see here why one of our first concerns in finding a house in Houston was "no HOA" or "no mandatory HOA". Fortunately we have an all-voluntary "Neighborhood Association" that holds exactly zero power over me and my property.

I would rather live in a ghetto apartment than a nice house in a neighborhood terrorized by an HOA.
posted by mrbill at 1:55 PM on November 27, 2006

Holy spin zone, Batman! Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament = anti-nuclear-energy = pro-Iraq-war? Where did you get that one?
posted by XMLicious at 1:56 PM on November 27, 2006

b1tr0t, you're silly.

For some reason the symbolic meaning of the symbol is in the Peace Symbol page.
posted by b1tr0t at 1:57 PM on November 27, 2006

She should festoon her house with a garland of severed ears.

Entwined with pine boughs.

And candy canes.
posted by felix betachat at 1:57 PM on November 27, 2006 [2 favorites has favorites]

gurple; except the architectural control committee didn't have a problem with it. The fact that they were all fired for not having a problem with it is, itself, quite a problem.
posted by odinsdream at 1:59 PM on November 27, 2006

I'm assuming this is a very right-wing place and it's a knee-jerk fear that Cindy Sheehan moved into town.

It reminds of the the NYC hard-hat riots when all the meatheads looked for peace signs displays and cracked some skulls.

At Pace University, construction workers, attracted by the peace flag hanging outside the building, first burned the flag and then started beating students up. They hit students with construction boots, fists, lead pipes, and wire cutters. The workers broke into the university and vandalized it, breaking windows and throwing trash cans around.
posted by DougieZero1982 at 1:59 PM on November 27, 2006

Holy spin zone, Batman! Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament = anti-nuclear-energy = pro-Iraq-war? Where did you get that one?

Read the link: They are also opposed to any new nuclear power stations being built in the United Kingdom.

If you oppose nuclear power, you have to support some other power source (or live in a dark hut). Alternatives include coal and oil. Oil seems to require middle east wars. Therefore you have to tolerate middle east wars to hate nuclear power stations enough to oppose them.
posted by b1tr0t at 2:01 PM on November 27, 2006

The subdivision's convenants say no signs, billboards or advertising are permitted without the consent of the architectural control committee.

Heh. In my view, gated communities are designed to keep the assholes IN.
posted by three blind mice at 2:04 PM on November 27, 2006 [3 favorites has favorites]

Yeah, the peace sign as we know it is a stylized representation of the sempahore signs for N and D, short for Nuclear Disarmament. So from a strictly literal point of view, this is a sign. But Kearns almost certainly didn't know that, and he's still an asshole.
posted by mistermoore at 2:06 PM on November 27, 2006

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. HOA should be outlawed or made completely voluntary. If I want to purchase a house I should not be required to join their stupid little club. WHen I buy a can of tuna at the grocery store I'm not required to sign a contract saying I'll obey some wannabe dictator's little rules, and I see no reason at all why buying a house is magically different.

HOA are merely the modern incarnation of the "gentleman's agreements" of the past that required you not to resell your house to undesireables (like Jews, Blacks, Irish, or whatever group the bigots were hating at the time).

No good comes of HOA's, they are simply an excuse of busybodies to try and run other people's lives. I say we declare all HOA contracts unenforcable from orbit, its the only way to be sure.
posted by sotonohito at 2:08 PM on November 27, 2006 [1 favorite has favorites]

Yeah, the peace sign as we know it is a stylized representation of the sempahore signs for N and D, short for Nuclear Disarmament. So from a strictly literal point of view, this is a sign.

I thought the peace sign was the inverted rune for war?
posted by drezdn at 2:08 PM on November 27, 2006

And people ask why I hate Americans.
posted by mr. strange at 2:10 PM on November 27, 2006

☮
posted by found missing at 2:12 PM on November 27, 2006

If she likes free speech so much, then why is she providing money to an organization that stifles it?

Well, there's the argument of necessity: becasue she needed a place to live and increasingly new private housing tends to be part of a development which has an HOA or similar CCRs attached. The market can't solve the problem if most things in your market don't offer the right choice.

There's also the argument that she never intended to use signage on her property and thought that seasonal/symbological decoration doesn't constitute a "sign" anymore than the use of a subtraction symbol might.
posted by namespan at 2:12 PM on November 27, 2006

+
posted by stirfry at 2:17 PM on November 27, 2006

If you willingly move into a neighborhood where other people get to tell you things like what kind of mailbox you can have

Like namespan said, it's getting harder and harder to avoid such neighborhoods. You might as well say "If you willingly accept a job where the boss can fire you without cause..."
posted by languagehat at 2:21 PM on November 27, 2006

If you oppose nuclear power, you have to support some other power source (or live in a dark hut). Alternatives include coal and oil. Oil seems to require middle east wars. Therefore you have to tolerate middle east wars to hate nuclear power stations enough to oppose them.

That logic is awesome! Can I try?

If you oppose incest, you have to support some other form of sex (or kill off humanity). Alternatives include pedophilia and beastiality. Pedophilia seems to require abuse of children. Therefore you have to tolerate abuse of children to hate incest enough to oppose it.
posted by scottreynen at 2:23 PM on November 27, 2006 [3 favorites has favorites]

I'm confused.

So the people with kids serving in Iraq would prefer the conflict to continue, rather than having peace?

I take that back. They're obviously the ones who are confused.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:24 PM on November 27, 2006

Let's see:
• Christmas is about peace on Earth and good will toward men.
Check.
• Party puts up Christmas wreath shaped like a peace sign.
Check.
• Parties who support war suggest that wreath is a Satanic symbol.


Hunh. Never heard Satan called a peacenik before.
posted by Twang at 2:25 PM on November 27, 2006

If you oppose nuclear power, you have to support some other power source (or live in a dark hut). Alternatives include coal and oil. Oil seems to require middle east wars. Therefore you have to tolerate middle east wars to hate nuclear power stations enough to oppose them.

If you oppose driving to work you have to support some other mode of transportation (or walk). Alternatives include the bus and the train. The bus seems to require low-paid employees. Therefore you have to tolerate low wages in order to hate driving enough to oppose it.

If you oppose reading Metafilter at work you have to read it at some other time (or not read it). Alternatives include reading it at the cafe and reading it at home. Reading it at home seems to require ignoring your spouse. Therefore you have to tolerate ignoring your spouse in order to oppose reading Metafilter at work.

If you oppose ketchup you have to use another condiment (or eat your burger dry). Alternatives include mustard and mayo. Mayo seems to require egg yolk. Therefore, if you hate ketchup, you have to like egg yolk.
posted by rafter at 2:28 PM on November 27, 2006

(And scottreynen beat me too the punch.)
posted by rafter at 2:29 PM on November 27, 2006

“It's also an anti-Christ sign. That's how it started,"

Yeah, that thing about Jesus Christ being “The Prince of Peace”?
It’s just irony.

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid...nah, I’m just kidding."(John 14:27).

"Lo, I am with you all the days - perpetually, uniformly and on every occasion to the very close and consummation of the age. I will never leave you, nor forsake you. My peace I give you, and that peace is...*snicker* are you guys really buying all this?"(Matthew 28:20)

And really, the last thing “the troops” want is peace. We all know our brave boys want to be in harms way, losing those limbs and getting bits of their friends guts blown all over them rather than be home on Christmas with their families.

I’m so glad sometimes that, on knee-jerk, I’m a vicious bastard who would happily club this shithead to death. I mean, you don’t believe in peace? Hey, great. Then you have no real ideological problem with me crippling you. I mean, if I beat on some guy who believed in peaceful coexistance I might feel some remorse.

“If she likes free speech so much, then why is she providing money to an organization that stifles it?” -posted by gurple

Yeah, but - you don’t lose your inherent rights, contract or no. One cannot sell oneself into slavery for example, in the U.S.
Sure there’s an argument to be had there, plenty of legal wrangling I’m sure. But, as with my above statement, extension of consent by implication doesn’t really work. It’s a monkey way of dodging equitability. “But you signed this piece of paper that said we could devour your first born child. You agreed!”
posted by Smedleyman at 2:29 PM on November 27, 2006 [2 favorites has favorites]

A few years of jokes about gated communities being voluntary insane asylums might clear them out.
posted by Twang at 2:29 PM on November 27, 2006

This is beyond asinine. I can only speculate that Kearns has rooted his logic in some "Support The Troops" nonsense - that, or he is bound and determined to be "right" and "win" this pointless little stand-off.

But if these troops Kearns is at such great pains to spare a hypothetical insult by a bit of pine & wire are truly out there keeping "liberty on the march", then his suppression of expression is weapons-grade irony.
posted by EatTheWeak at 2:30 PM on November 27, 2006

Jesus unavailable to spin in grave.
posted by peeedro at 2:31 PM on November 27, 2006 [1 favorite has favorites]

(I think b1tr0t was attempting to calibrate the tongue in cheek detectors btw)
posted by Smedleyman at 2:32 PM on November 27, 2006

Why do you hate Americans, mr. strange?
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 2:37 PM on November 27, 2006 [1 favorite has favorites]

To expand: the sign arose from the British '70s movement Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament. ND = Nuclear Disarmamament. This designboom page has the most complete explanation I've found.
posted by mistermoore at 2:38 PM on November 27, 2006

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household."
posted by First Post at 2:39 PM on November 27, 2006

That particular peace sign actually opposes nuclear technology... If you oppose nuclear power, you have to support some other power source (or live in a dark hut). Alternatives include coal and oil. Oil seems to require middle east wars. Therefore you have to tolerate middle east wars to hate nuclear power stations enough to oppose them. - b1tr0t

*Al Gore sigh*
My foolish friend, the "peace sign" did not begin as a protest against nuclear power stations, but rather as a protest against Nuclear Motherfuckin' Bombs. I am old enough to remember those days - and your own wikipedia link makes it obvious for those who don't. Dumbass.
posted by Mister_A at 2:42 PM on November 27, 2006 [1 favorite has favorites]

People really are asking mr. strange why he hates Americans.
posted by stbalbach at 2:42 PM on November 27, 2006

Thank God someone is finally standing up to the peace bullies! Just the other day I was attacking my local mailman with a frying pan when out of nowhere flashing lights and sirens surround me and like four or five peace bullies pull me off that bastard and tell me it's illegal to attack people. Fine, that's fine. I'll deal with being humiliated in front of my kids and I'll pay the fine, but you can't tell me I should have to pass a big symbol mocking my inability to legally assault my mailman every day! That's ridiculous!
posted by Mentallo The Brain God at 2:46 PM on November 27, 2006 [2 favorites has favorites]

One year my mom put white doves all over our tree, which was clearly visible from the street. Imagine trying that nowadays in the gated community of Soma Valley. Here's her end of the phone call:

"But Mr. Heitz, they're just doves! What's the problem?"
. . .
"They're birds ... like albino pigeons, or, um, French hens."
. . .
"But I can't take it down — I just finished putting it up."
. . .
"Why, yes, I believe we have a stuffed eagle in the attic. And we do have ketchup in the fridge. Why do you ask?"
posted by rob511 at 2:48 PM on November 27, 2006

What a dingbat - she had a perfectly good opportunity to say she was telling Santa she wants a Mercedes. Ok a modified Mercedes. Still.
posted by yoga at 2:53 PM on November 27, 2006

Oh America, what basic tenets of your own constitution won't you hilariously misinterpret?
posted by EndsOfInvention at 2:54 PM on November 27, 2006 [1 favorite has favorites]

If mr. strange hates Americans, he has to support some other country (or move to outer space). Alternatives include Aruba and the Bahamas. Aruba and the Bahamas seem to require American tourism for their economies. Therefore mr. strange has to tolerate Americans with black socks and Bermuda shorts to hate Americans enough to oppose them.

Any questions?
posted by found missing at 2:54 PM on November 27, 2006 [1 favorite has favorites]

how dare she protest the war with a peace sign? ... doesn't she know that our troops are fighting for our FREEDOM?
posted by pyramid termite at 2:58 PM on November 27, 2006

I love the fact that the Yahoo News page in the first link includes both a picture of the peace invitation to Satanic man-rape and bestiality and all things that destroy the purity of the American way of family domination sign and a picture of a silent Tibetan protester with clown-paint tears.

Irony helps me make it through this sort of idiocy.
posted by mmahaffie at 2:58 PM on November 27, 2006

"If she likes free speech so much, then why is she providing money to an organization that stifles it?"
Well it sounds like the organization made a sound decision not to get involved, but was over-ridden by one man who didn't like the outcome. So getting rid of this HOA president would seem to be the thing to do. Since he doesn't like peace, why not shoot the sorry piece of shit?
posted by 2sheets at 2:59 PM on November 27, 2006

If you oppose peace symbols, you have to support some other form of symbols (or not display any). Alternatives include stars of David and swastikas. Swastikas seems to require Hitler. Therefore you have to tolerate Hitler to hate peace symbols enough to oppose them.
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:00 PM on November 27, 2006

“Oh America, what basic tenets of your own constitution won't you hilariously misinterpret?” -posted by EndsOfInvention
*grin*
Nice to see I’m not the only one that thinks we’re living in a situation comedy here.
If only we had a wacky theme song. The Star Spangled Banner needs more slide trombone.
posted by Smedleyman at 3:00 PM on November 27, 2006 [2 favorites has favorites]

*spraypaints bob kearns' house with peace sign*
posted by pyramid termite at 3:01 PM on November 27, 2006

Hmm.. two things stand out:

When Kearns ordered the association's architectural control committee to require Jensen to remove the wreath removed, they refused. Jack Lilly, chairman of the group, said it decided it was merely a seasonal symbol that didn't say anything. Lilly also said he had received no complaints from homeowners. Kearns fired all five members of the committee.

Jensen, a past president of the association in the subdivision of 200 homes

After seeing some of the shenanigans back in my suburban hometown, I have to wonder if this is less about the peace sign itself and more about small town busybody politics.
posted by smoothvirus at 3:04 PM on November 27, 2006

Satan is peace! Jesus is war!
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:11 PM on November 27, 2006

Well it sounds like the organization made a sound decision not to get involved, but was over-ridden by one man who didn't like the outcome.

Yeah, well, that's the problem, isn't it? The organization has the right (in the terms of the agreement she signed -- fighting it in court is a separate discussion) to censor her. Most of the organization is sensible, and decides to suspend that right. One jackass decides to nail her to the wall.

But she bought into this. She signed the document that allowed one jackass to fine her, even though the rest of the association are reasonable human beings.

I think this is great on a lot of levels. I think it highlights how ridiculous it is to sign away your freedoms (or, at least, your money, if you choose to exercise your freedoms) in this way. My parents live in a community with similar bylaws, and it drives me nuts that they would submit to those rules. Maybe stories like this will help people realize that this is just a bad idea.
posted by gurple at 3:21 PM on November 27, 2006

Peace is very threatening.

Peace is a small animal crushed by a large truck.
Peace is a mass grave unearthed in the dead of winter.
Peace is shards of glass littering an abandoned town square.
Peace is averting your eyes at the sight of the striding jackboots.

Peace kicks ass.
posted by CynicalKnight at 3:23 PM on November 27, 2006

posted by b1tr0t That particular peace sign actually opposes nuclear technology. Without nuclear power, we need to consume more coal and oil. Logically, calls for less nuclear energy imply conflict over alternative energy sources, such as oil. Eevry time you display the CND peace symbol, you are implicitly calling for more Iraq-like wars.

Actually, the Peace Symbol does not represent opposition to nuclear power; it represents nuclear disarmament.
(Semaphore N for Nuclear) + (Semaphore D for Disarmament) + (Circle representing totality) = Total Nuclear Disarmament.

Thank goodness someone's cracking down on peace symbols. Up here, some lunatic is posting crosses and numbers on a hillside!
posted by fandango_matt at 3:31 PM on November 27, 2006

HOA do have their place. Certain historic neighborhoods need a strong HOA to maintain the value of the homes as well as the historic character, etc.
posted by cell divide at 3:33 PM on November 27, 2006

If only we had a wacky theme song. The Star Spangled Banner needs more slide trombone.

I suggest the ever-versatile "Yakety Sax" (youtube).
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:36 PM on November 27, 2006

If only we had a wacky theme song. The Star Spangled Banner needs more slide trombone.

I think it's already wacky enough that the melody started out as a drinking song. (Yeah, I know Wikipedia disputes that it was a drinking song currently.)
posted by grouse at 3:43 PM on November 27, 2006

Wait a minute... Pagosa Springs has a 200 home subdivision?

Oh... looks like the subdivision is just outside town. From the town web site: "THE TOWN WHOLLY SUPPORTS THEIR PEACE SIGN DISPLAY AND ALSO WISHES FOR PEACE ON EARTH."
posted by jal0021 at 3:45 PM on November 27, 2006

So, would a large cross be considered signage?
posted by etaoin at 3:55 PM on November 27, 2006

I would have taken the sign down immediately, and replaced it with signs that say something like this:

SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!

LYNDDIE ENGLAND IS INNOCENT!

above a picture of Lynddie doing her famous pose, pointing towards a pyramid of naked, gift-wrapped muslims.

And another one with that guy who's standing hooded on the box, his electric wires providing the power for the Christmas lights that festoon his naked body.

Who could possibly be offended by such a patriotic seasonal display?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 3:57 PM on November 27, 2006 [2 favorites has favorites]

WTF has this country come to when, to some people, a wish for peace is somehow anti-troops and anti-american enough to justify this kind of petty, political bullshit? Good-fucking-grief. It's a goddamn wreath on one fucking house. Get some perspective.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:58 PM on November 27, 2006

What the gibbering fuck is wrong with (large segments of) your country?
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 4:04 PM on November 27, 2006 [1 favorite has favorites]

Yeah, well, that's the problem, isn't it? The organization has the right (in the terms of the agreement she signed -- fighting it in court is a separate discussion) to censor her.

Her HOA said nothing about banning peace-symbols specifically, and nothing about general censorship at all. The members of the committee knew this was a non-starter and did the right thing.

The remaining idiot may be pointing at her HOA while suing her, but that doesn't mean the HOA is faulty.
posted by tkolar at 4:05 PM on November 27, 2006

Which American does mr. strange hate? The one putting up the peace sign or the one demanding it be taken down? Daft c--t.
posted by Falconetti at 4:15 PM on November 27, 2006

On a related note, the latest Daft C__t album is a mesmerizing mix of trip hop dance beats.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:32 PM on November 27, 2006

What the gibbering fuck is wrong with (large segments of) your country?

Don't we wish we knew.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:33 PM on November 27, 2006

cell divide HOA do have their place. Certain historic neighborhoods need a strong HOA to maintain the value of the homes as well as the historic character, etc.

If the homes won't maintain their value without the frantic efforts of a bunch of meddlesome jackasses, they don't actually have that value.
posted by aeschenkarnos at 4:33 PM on November 27, 2006 [3 favorites has favorites]

Mmmmm...HOAs: where petty tyrants and wannabe martinets get their rocks off, and where lovers of authoritarian government run to inform on their neighbors. It's a damn shame they can't gate these communities, lock them, and give me the keys.
posted by Emperor SnooKloze at 4:38 PM on November 27, 2006

Goddamn hippies!
posted by ericb at 4:38 PM on November 27, 2006

What a fucking asshole this Kearns guy is

The subdivision's convenants say no signs, billboards or advertising are permitted without the consent of the architectural control committee.

Clearly, the people who complained and this Kearns guy are [insert epithet here]. But this lady signed onto these bylaws when she bought into this community. If she likes free speech so much, then why is she providing money to an organization that stifles it?

Yeah, but the committee said it was OK, then he fired them all. No committee, no takedowns. Just like how the king can't tax without parlement. That's how I see it.
posted by delmoi at 4:47 PM on November 27, 2006

What the gibbering fuck is wrong with (large segments of) your country?

too much drinking water, not enough drought.
posted by dflemingdotorg at 4:50 PM on November 27, 2006

Why do I get the impression that a hippie stole Bob Kearns' girlfriend back in the 1960s, fueling a life-long hatred of long hair, The Jefferson Airplane and peace symbols that's culminated in his tight-fisted domination of the local homeowner's association?
posted by MegoSteve at 4:55 PM on November 27, 2006 [1 favorite has favorites]

You don't have to have your girlfriend stolen by a hippie to hate Jefferson Airplane.
posted by Astro Zombie at 5:03 PM on November 27, 2006 [1 favorite has favorites]

It seems that Mr. Kearns' home address and phone number are easily obtainable via ZabaSearch, he noted.
posted by Eyebeams at 5:17 PM on November 27, 2006

Someone on Digg already posted his home address and phone number. Someone said it was disconnected.
posted by bob sarabia at 5:33 PM on November 27, 2006

I can see situations where an HOA would be a benefit, such as where the city does not have adequate zoning laws. I'd hate it if my neighbor decided to put an oil well in his front yard, or use his property as a junkyard. This type of thing, however, is going too far. (btw, I do not belong to an HOA)
posted by mach at 5:33 PM on November 27, 2006

Some people live in a bubble, and whenever anybody does anything that reminds them of this they get upset, and complain about wreaths. I suspect the complexities of current day domestic and foreign policy are lost on our Mr. Kearns, and he imagines that the troops are overseas fighting the nazis or the north koreans or some other equally unambiguous yesterkrieg.
posted by gallois at 5:54 PM on November 27, 2006 [1 favorite has favorites]

What the gibbering fuck is wrong with (large segments of) your country?

By "large segments of," do you mean that one guy? Search me.

Wow, lots of self-righteous people here who think they're oh-so-cool because they don't belong to HOAs. I don't know where you guys live, but if you live in South Florida, it is almost impossible to buy a house without belonging to an HOA, and you can't buy a condo without belonging to a condo association. I assume that a lot of newer communities out west, like this on in Colorado, pose the same problem. In NYC, it's co-op boards. Believe it or not, not all of the people who run these things are fascists.

When my wife and I bought our house, we didn't like the concept of living in an HOA community. Within two months of buying the house, we were president and secretary of the HOA because no one wanted the jobs. We set a precedent of unbusybodyness that persists. That option -- taking control of an HOA instead of sitting in your La-Z-Boy and bellyaching about the association -- is available to all homeowners.

When you sign a rental lease, you agree to more restrictions than a person who buys a house in an HOA neighborhood. But I don't see Mefites denouncing renters as fools who are throwing away their civil rights. Why not?

Roundly condemning all HOAs because of jerks like Kearns is like condemning representative democracies because of jerks like George W. Bush.

Kearns isn't going to be president of that HOA for long. The homeowners will throw the bum out. I'm puzzled that an HOA's bylaws would allow the president, all by his lonesome, to fire an entire architectural review board. They'd better change those bylaws.
posted by Holden at 5:57 PM on November 27, 2006 [2 favorites has favorites]

The only valid response to this situation is to laugh.

The woman moved into a subdivision with a HOA. The stand she is making is against her own decision to live in the subdivision. She isn't making a stand against the war: "Peace is way bigger than not being at war. This is a spiritual thing." Her behavior is just as thick-headed as that of the people who feel threatened by her symbol.

The situation would be slightly more amusing if she advanced my argument that her chosen peace symbol is fundamentally anti-nuclear, and therefore pro-iraq-war.
posted by b1tr0t at 6:00 PM on November 27, 2006

"I can see situations where an HOA would be a benefit, such as where the city does not have adequate zoning laws. I'd hate it if my neighbor decided to put an oil well in his front yard, or use his property as a junkyard. This type of thing, however, is going too far. (btw, I do not belong to an HOA)"
posted by mach

As long as they pay their taxes, why not have an alternate energy source or some "Lawn Jewelry" in their front yard?

Just a different perspective.
posted by Jumpin Jack Flash at 6:03 PM on November 27, 2006

Does this remind anyone else of Bobby Dooley's dirty underwear nailed to the trees?
posted by Hal Mumkin at 6:14 PM on November 27, 2006

If only we had a wacky theme song. The Star Spangled Banner needs more slide trombone.

This would be so excellent. Please, please, someone do this and post it to MeFi music.
posted by Meatbomb at 6:35 PM on November 27, 2006

It seems like lately I'm hearing so much about ultraconservative BS happening in that state.
Colorado. It's the new Texas. Only prettier.

I'd hate it if my neighbor decided to put an oil well in his front yard, or use his property as a junkyard.
In one of the areas I'd like to live - opposite a state park - somebody has a HUGE Confederate flag flying outside their house. (This is Michigan.)

But, that person has a right to fly it. Right?

I would rather live in a ghetto apartment than a nice house in a neighborhood terrorized by an HOA.

Sure you would.
posted by NorthernLite at 6:47 PM on November 27, 2006

In a parallel universe, there is an America where violence is viewed as a vile atrocity, and sex is seen as a wonderful gift.
posted by psmealey at 6:56 PM on November 27, 2006 [4 favorites has favorites]

http://durangoherald.com/asp-bin/article_generation.asp?article_type=news&article_path=/news/06/news061126_2.htm

Someone needs to really crack down on these "peace" capitlists. Clearly these people hate freedom.
posted by rydogg at 6:56 PM on November 27, 2006

Hippies are still trying to ruin the country!
posted by homunculus at 7:04 PM on November 27, 2006

Wow, and I thought we were plumb out of fucking morons.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 7:23 PM on November 27, 2006

The "satanic symbol" thing is the most absurd and yet the most ignored in this thread.

It should scare you that there are people out there that earn enough money to buy brand new houses in HOA-governed subdivisions, and yet do not know what a peace sign is.

They, quite literally, do not know WHAT IT IS.

These people vote. In droves.
posted by Ynoxas at 7:32 PM on November 27, 2006

Thanks, homunculus. Another thing to be thankful for--I don't live in Kentucky.
posted by leftcoastbob at 7:49 PM on November 27, 2006

Doesn't that hippy chick know that peace was killed off in the 60's to make way for the Chickenhawk War Machine?

Disagreeing with the war means the terrorists have won. Which, I guess, in a way, they have.
posted by fenriq at 7:58 PM on November 27, 2006

"I honestly wasn't thinking of the Iraq war. Peace is way bigger than not being at war."

Wouldn't it be a fucking awesome start, though?
posted by nanojath at 8:28 PM on November 27, 2006

Thank Buddah-Allah-Wicca-Lenin for homunculus.
posted by notswedish at 8:29 PM on November 27, 2006

...if you live in South Florida, it is almost impossible to buy a house without belonging to an HOA...

The obvious solution presents itself.

When you sign a rental lease, you agree to more restrictions than a person who buys a house in an HOA neighborhood.

This is just flat-out wrong. There are many more restrictions on what is enforceable in a residential lease than on what is enforceable by an HOA. (Is anything out of bounds for an HOA, besides no-blacks-or-Jews covenants?) Most importantly, the terms of my lease are going to be the same when the lease ends as when I signed it; the landlord can't decide halfway through that pets are no longer allowed, or that peace signs are verboten. An HOA can decide to pass whatever batshit insane nonsense it chooses at any time and you've got no recourse. Hell, for that matter, it's not bound by the constitutional protections against ex post facto laws, so unless the bylaws say otherwise, or if someone manages to get them changed, it can decide you're retroactively liable for violating a rule before it existed.
posted by IshmaelGraves at 8:44 PM on November 27, 2006

psmealey writes...
In a parallel universe, there is an America where violence is viewed as a vile atrocity, and sex is seen as a wonderful gift.

Sorry, that would be more of a perpendicular universe.
posted by tkolar at 9:15 PM on November 27, 2006

I suggest she not pay this organisation a damn penny, and get the ACLU (or even just a pro-bono lawyer) involved.

If the bylaws/agreement says she can't put up a sign, billboard etc without committee approval:
1) It's a wreath, not a sign billboard etc.
2) The committee did OK it, and then get overrode by this asshole. But if the rules say the committee has to OK it, then asshole can't just ignore committee ruling and fine anyway, imho. Get a lawyer.

I'd suggest Denny Crane, but I suspect he'd be on the asshole's side :)
posted by kaemaril at 9:15 PM on November 27, 2006

Hippies are still trying to ruin the country!

Won't somebody rid me of these meddlesome hippies?
posted by peeedro at 9:52 PM on November 27, 2006

Holy good god, I think that hippies article enumerates every false dichotomy used to argue for war.

I love things that manage to satirize themselves when the consequences aren't so dire.
posted by flaterik at 10:26 PM on November 27, 2006

I love posts like these because it gives every dim fool a chance to imprudently place some of their inexhaustible and depthless outrage and bellyaching on the head of one particular moron who stands in as a false metonymy for America thereby demonstrating their failure at simple logic and rational thought and I like run-on sentences so what.
posted by Falconetti at 10:28 PM on November 27, 2006 [2 favorites has favorites]

There are many more restrictions on what is enforceable in a residential lease than on what is enforceable by an HOA.

Damn fucking right. Do you "home owners" really think you own your house? Honestly?

Suckers.
posted by dirigibleman at 11:05 PM on November 27, 2006

In one of the areas I'd like to live - opposite a state park - somebody has a HUGE Confederate flag flying outside their house. (This is Michigan.)

But, that person has a right to fly it. Right?

Well, just as with the wreath, that would be regarded as speech. My example was the neighbor building an oil well or junkyard, which has more to do with land use (i.e. zoning)

My point was meant to be a response to all those who were decrying HOAs as having no redeemable qualities. In reality, if you choose to live in any community in the US, you are likely limited in what you can do with your property by the local zoning restrictions and the local building department. The difference between this and an HOA is really only a matter of degree.
posted by mach at 11:49 PM on November 27, 2006

We don't want the first sign of peace to be a nuclear mushroom.

About the Kenfucky link:

Whose life is more important: the 12-year-old Iraqi firing an Uzi or a soldier from Kentucky?

Wow.
posted by NewBornHippy at 11:58 PM on November 27, 2006

Thank Buddah-Allah-Wicca-Lenin for homunculus.

Thank you, but in this season it is more appropriate to sing the praises of the Great Old Ones.
posted by homunculus at 11:59 PM on November 27, 2006

gives every dim fool a chance to imprudently place some of their inexhaustible and depthless outrage and bellyaching on the head of one particular moron who stands in as a false metonymy for America

Right, this is a freak occurrence, power-drunk HOAs never abuse their authority ¹ and there is no trend here. And you're certainly not signing up for unaccountable ersatz government-by-bumbling-amateurs when you join that HOA, oh no, my friend, this is just a false metonymy, not representative of anything at all. Voluntarily agreeing to any and all rules which might at any future moment spring from the fever-dreams of a frustrated would-be bureaucrat while simultaneously assuming all liability for their incompetence is perfectly rational behavior, don't you worry. Who's going to read all that nasty fine print anyway, amirite?

1. That's right, boys and girls, my landlord can't unilaterally add a no-smoking provision to an existing lease, but your HOA can. Ain't home-ownership grand? Three cheers for the American dream!
posted by IshmaelGraves at 12:00 AM on November 28, 2006

The difference between [zoning boards and building commissions] and an HOA is really only a matter of degree.

That, and accountability to the electorate, and being beholden under the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution and assorted federal and state laws regarding government transparency and other trivial matters.
posted by IshmaelGraves at 12:06 AM on November 28, 2006

The difference between [zoning boards and building commissions] and an HOA is really only a matter of degree.

That, and accountability to the electorate, and being beholden under the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution and assorted federal and state laws regarding government transparency and other trivial matters.

Most HOAs elect the governing boards, so yes, they are accountable to this electorate as well. I don't see how HOAs are exempt from the 14th amendment. As for transparency, I guess that is subject to the specific HOA in question.

Yes, I'm sure there are some HOAs that suck, but it does not mean that as a class they are useless. Just like some building departments suck. The point is that when you live in any community, you must figure on making some concessions in order for the community to thrive. If everybody only did their own thing without a thought for how it impacted their neighbors, then it really isn't a community is it?

The real question is whether HOAs or city governments should be able to regulate which form of speech (and/or which messages) can be displayed on your property.
posted by mach at 12:34 AM on November 28, 2006

To all those who labor here in the vineyards of ration seeking shelter from the storm,

let me offer you today, and throughout this season which afflicts us, this quote by the venerable Rumi:

"Sell your cleverness, and buy bewilderment"
posted by Twang at 12:40 AM on November 28, 2006 [1 favorite has favorites]

Most HOAs elect the governing boards, so yes, they are accountable to this electorate as well. I don't see how HOAs are exempt from the 14th amendment. As for transparency, I guess that is subject to the specific HOA in question.

Yes, I suppose there is some degree of electoral accountability to many HOAs (though of course they are not governed by existing laws covering municipal elections and thus can conduct them as they please, bringing to mind Stalin's quote — then again, with the current government election systems, perhaps this isn't a bad thing). But my other points stand: the Fourteenth Amendment, in Gitlow v. New York, was held to mean that states (and, by extension, I believe, though it's too late here for me to try to find references, local governments) are governed by the First Amendment and most of the other amendments in the Bill of Rights. The HOA, a private entity, has no obligation to protect speech, religion, etc. The same is true of (usually state-level, as FOIA applies only to federal agencies) "sunshine" laws.

If everybody only did their own thing without a thought for how it impacted their neighbors, then it really isn't a community is it?

To my mind, it's almost a tautology that "community" can't be enforced, legislated, or contracted into — the entire point is that a group of people doing their own thing find other people whose own things they appreciate and thus a community emerges. I suppose this means we disagree on first principles which are not really amenable to debate.
posted by IshmaelGraves at 12:47 AM on November 28, 2006

I think I lost any surprise at what Americans do a few months ago. And sometimes, idling in the pits of despair, I wonder if a giant, fascist Islamic Caliphate would be that much worse.
posted by malusmoriendumest at 12:49 AM on November 28, 2006

malusmoriendumest, oh yes, it would be that much worse. I doubt we would be reading this thread if it were the case. I can only hope that the Internet is used to spread information such as this far and wide. Ignorance and malice can be pushed back with the painful truth.
posted by Tzarius at 1:16 AM on November 28, 2006

Mistermoore wrote: To expand: the sign arose from the British '70s movement Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament.

1970s? As one mister to another, may I suggest you go back and carefully read that webpage you ink to designboom . . . UK Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament (CND) . . . Aldermaston march. . . 1958.

Better still, CND has a webpage on the history and subsequent evolution of the CND logo: cnduk
posted by Mister Bijou at 1:44 AM on November 28, 2006

The subdivision's convenants say no signs, billboards or advertising are permitted without the consent of the architectural control committee.

Of course, the control committee did give their consent, implicitly, by refusing to order the removal of the sign.

Until they where fired, that is.
posted by spazzm at 2:51 AM on November 28, 2006

OH NO CALLED OUT

My bad.
posted by mistermoore at 3:11 AM on November 28, 2006

And people ask why I hate Americans.

Too bad you can't tell them because of your ASBO.
posted by srboisvert at 3:39 AM on November 28, 2006 [1 favorite has favorites]

About the peace symbol being a "satanic symbol":

I was part of a church group when I was 13, and we were explicitly told that Satan was trying to "trick us" with symbols that other people told us were okay, but were actually Satanic.

This included the peace symbol, because it was a cross with the arms broken -- Satan triumphant over Jesus.

Coincidentally, when I googled "peace sign satanic symbol", another article about this wreath appeared, that mentions what I was told when I was a kid.
posted by Katemonkey at 4:20 AM on November 28, 2006

That particular peace sign actually opposes nuclear technology. Eevry time you display the CND peace symbol, you are implicitly calling for more Iraq-like wars.
posted by b1tr0t at 1:47 PM PST on November 27

VS 'the peaceful atom' and leading to the conflict with Iran and their claims and the US of A and thier claims.

Logically, calls for less nuclear energy imply conflict over alternative energy sources, such as oil.

Again....Iran. What would be the reaction to Iran saying 'Welp, we are abandoning nuclear power. Due to our energy needs, we are going to keep our oil and gas'?

If gas was costing $5 a gallon, how many 'keep the atom outta Iran' crowd would be singing a different tune?
posted by rough ashlar at 4:47 AM on November 28, 2006

The situation would be slightly more amusing if she advanced my argument that her chosen peace symbol is fundamentally anti-nuclear, and therefore pro-Iraq-war.

I don't think many people are going to advance that argument as it's pretty inaccurate. CND is primarily about Nuclear Disarmament (which is an increasingly important area of debate in the UK as the government is thinking about replacing Trident).

In terms of nuclear power the actual campaign they are running is to urge the UK Government to

choose major investment in renewable energy over new nuclear power plants

So much for them choosing coal and oil automatically (also note that CND are not (at the moment) campaigning to decommission existing nuclear power stations, but to look at alternatives before building new ones).
posted by drill_here_fore_seismics at 4:53 AM on November 28, 2006

Yeah, that thing about Jesus Christ being “The Prince of Peace”?
It’s just irony.

posted by Smedleyman at 2:29 PM PST

It takes a third miracle man to break down the stalemate between Al-Dajjal and Al-Mahdi: Jesus. Yes, you read that right: when the world is about to end, Muslims too expect Jesus -- `Isa' in the Koran -- to return from heaven. It is a miraculous thing to see, since Isa returns with much dramatic display: he descends from the sky in Damascus while a mass prayer is going on. If you're a Christian, you're in for a big surprise: without an eye's blink, Jesus denounces Christianity and calls upon everybody to convert to Islam.

And Jesus is in a fighting mood. He turns out an excellent military leader, as he goes out to pick a fight with Al-Dajjal. While more and more people convert to Islam, Isa defeats the false prophet. Jesus kills Al-Dajjal himself. It happens in the valley of `Ifiq', near an Israeli airport.

And

Luke 22:36: "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."
posted by rough ashlar at 4:55 AM on November 28, 2006

The situation would be slightly more amusing if she advanced my argument that her chosen peace symbol is fundamentally anti-nuclear, and therefore pro-iraq-war.
posted by b1tr0t at 6:00 PM PST

For this to be true, you'd have to believe the Iraq war was over nuclear fission.
posted by rough ashlar at 5:01 AM on November 28, 2006

The HOA, a private entity, has no obligation to protect speech, religion, etc.,

Actually, the HOA has an obligation to abide by federal and local housing laws, including laws against discrimination.
posted by krinklyfig at 5:44 AM on November 28, 2006

The subdivision's rules say no signs, billboards or advertising are permitted without the consent of the architectural control committee.

In communist America, the architectural control committee architectures YOUR architecture !

Crash Davis if you willingly move into a neighborhood where other people get to tell you things like what kind of mailbox you can have, you're pretty much asking for a dicking.

Ah don't be silly nobody asks for that except masochists maybe. Sometime one just can't not rent or not buy a place, because it the only one accessible or that they can afford. Spare me the "they deserve what they get" tirade.
posted by elpapacito at 5:52 AM on November 28, 2006

Maybe they think it's a Mercedes logo and want people to buy American.
posted by jonmc at 6:16 AM on November 28, 2006

Won't somebody rid me of these meddlesome hippies?

And I would've gotten away with it, if it hadn't been for you meddling acid freaks. And take your talking dog and the fruity guy with the ascot with you! [shakes fist/]
posted by jonp72 at 6:39 AM on November 28, 2006

the fruity guy with the ascot with you! [shakes fist/]

I always had my suspicions about Fred as well. I mean look at Alan from Josie & The Pussycats. Matching outfits, man. They were secret lovers. Which of course left Shaggy to satisfy Velma and Daphne. They don't call him Shaggy for nothing.
posted by jonmc at 6:44 AM on November 28, 2006

HOA apologizes
posted by Kirth Gerson at 7:39 AM on November 28, 2006

Nonsense, jonmc. Velma didn't need Shaggy to satisfy her. She didn't need any man at all, if you know what I'm saying.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:40 AM on November 28, 2006

"There's a whole lot of guys left over from the Vietnam War who remember the peace sign as something very negative," said Donald Haywood, who was in the service during Vietnam.
Now, this guy is another piece of work. If he had been in the service in Vietnam, he'd know that a whole lot of guys who were there had the peace symbol on their helmets. Any of those "guys left over" are probably capable of speaking for themselves and don't need Donald (in the service during Vietnam) Haywood to protect their delicate sensibilities.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 7:49 AM on November 28, 2006

It'd be nice if sympathetic neighbors of Loma Linda took up the cause by displaying their own peace signs, a la the menorahs of Billings, Montana.
posted by hydrophonic at 7:57 AM on November 28, 2006

Nonsense, jonmc. Velma didn't need Shaggy to satisfy her. She didn't need any man at all, if you know what I'm saying.

Ah, Scooby. Roo Ro Ruddy!
posted by jonmc at 8:28 AM on November 28, 2006

As Smedleyman points out, the assumption that the "troops" would rather be blown up in Iraq than, say, spend Christmas with their families is so sad and stupid that one is not even willing to make fun of it.


imprudently place some of their inexhaustible and depthless outrage and bellyaching on the head of one particular moron who stands in as a false metonymy for America thereby demonstrating their failure at simple logic and rational thought

well, at least this thread gave you the chance to tell us how cooler and smarter than all of us you really are. And, damn, you also flaunted that "metonymy" word -- forward your comment to mom and dad, show them that overpriced education was really worth every penny -- I'm sure pretentiousness is a great palliative for the lack of independent thought. for some, at least.

see, not that you can grasp the point, but the least blinkered among us -- here and elsewhere -- have come to realize that problem is that your "one particular moron" is far from an aberration -- America is full of them, they're the ones who took your country to Iraq and who are are taking away from Americans not exactly unimportant rights like, say, free speech (abortion's next, just ask Chief Justice Roberts). that's why blaming the oversensitive liberals for your country's turning into the object of worldwide ridicule is, frankly, laughable. but you're too cool to figure that out.
posted by matteo at 8:28 AM on November 28, 2006

No good comes of HOA's, they are simply an excuse of busybodies to try and run other people's lives.

Not really. I mean, it does hurt your resale value if the people next door want to paint their garage door purple, or just remove it altogether, because no one wants to buy a house next to that. Of course, the HOA where my mom lives was worse than useless—one particular homeowner kept building additions that were partially on land belonging to the HOA, and it kept selling the land he was trespassing on to him.

What the gibbering fuck is wrong with (large segments of) your country?

Five people are large segments of our country? Maybe they are of yours.

And at least we don't have to worry about unknown third parties taking out fraudulent mortages on our homes that we'll be responsible for. You do.
posted by oaf at 10:04 AM on November 28, 2006

I'm reminded of a hymn we used to sing..."The peace of Christ, it is no peace/But strife closed in the sod..."

As for HOAs, I hope someday I'm in a position to choose to have happy neighbors rather than the highest possible potential resale value on my home. If they have a junked Chevy in the front yard, but the kids are turning it into their "fort," that's OK with me as long as it's safe. I once lived in a town where "older and wiser heads" decreed that there could be no more old sofas on porches...bad juju.
posted by pax digita at 10:26 AM on November 28, 2006

so what's so wrong with peace?

Duh! Peace means the terrorists have won.
posted by Deathalicious at 10:58 AM on November 28, 2006

As for HOAs, I hope someday I'm in a position to choose to have happy neighbors rather than the highest possible potential resale value on my home. If they have a junked Chevy in the front yard, but the kids are turning it into their "fort," that's OK with me as long as it's safe. I once lived in a town where "older and wiser heads" decreed that there could be no more old sofas on porches...bad juju.

Seriously. I'm just 25 and living in an apartment now, but if I were a homeowner, I can't imagine caring all that much what color my neighbor would paint his home. Is this just an anal-retentive gene that kicks in once you turn 30 or something?
posted by SBMike at 11:13 AM on November 28, 2006

Seriously. I'm just 25 and living in an apartment now, but if I were a homeowner, I can't imagine caring all that much what color my neighbor would paint his home. Is this just an anal-retentive gene that kicks in once you turn 30 or something?

No, it's the gene that kicks in when you've got a $300,000 mortgage on a house that you bought for $360,000 and is now worth $290,000 because the neighborhood has gone to shit.

So now your original $60,000 down payment is gone, and you need to come up with an additional $10,000 just to get back to square one and move back into an apartment.

HOAs may or may not be the answer, but don't kid yourself: buying into the wrong neighborhood may be the most expensive mistake you ever make in your life.
posted by tkolar at 11:58 AM on November 28, 2006

“Doesn't that hippy chick know that peace was killed off in the 60's to make way for the Chickenhawk War Machine?”

I don’t need no war machine.

“I would rather live in a ghetto apartment than a nice house in a neighborhood terrorized by an HOA.”

I don’t need no ghetto scene.

(and, keeping with the pop music theme)

Can’t we all just ride the peace train?

Oh no, wait...

“The difference between [zoning boards and building commissions] and an HOA is really only a matter of degree.”

That and you can more easily identify and find your local homeowner assoc. asshats and creatively re-wire the innards of their vehicles.

--
I like that fightin’ jesus too rough ashlar. But JC’s ‘peace but confront’ message was co-opted by the romans and the bust a knuckle on teh Jews crowd. The early christians had a real “fuck you but I’m a pacifist” thing going for them. Which was nice. Until the brand was co-opted.

But as to Luke 22:36 - selling your cloak and buying a sword - I’m way, way ahead there.
As to why I am.... I dig peace. I read (on here I believe) that many people don’t want peace. They want to bust things up and see their enemies suffer. I (playfully) suppose that is because there are so many descendants of Gengis Khan (best in life - crush enemies, see them driven before you, hear the lamatation of their women - Conan who?). But really it’s cause their not satisfied with their lives.
Those who do want peace, tend to be satisfied folks. And I’m pretty happy and comfortable. (in part ‘cause I’ve dodged the imposition of desire - I’m not enlightened or anything, but if you hit some rough water you know what you need and learn to shun the useless junk)

I’ve always loved the LOTR. But until my adult life I never really plugged into some of the themes. You get, as a child, a teen, that your home is worth defending, but you never get the stark contrast between peace and war unless you go to war or are in an environment without peace (a ghetto perhaps).
And thus you have many hobbits enjoying the benefits of peace while they are suspicious of the Rangers who guard them (while idolizing the ‘safe’ heros of the past), dislike disturbances from Gandalf, see alternate perspectives, ideas, symbols, and the like as strange and to be shunned - because they’ve never been truly uncomfortable. They take peace for granted and turn war into some fetish symbol for patriotism.

And yes, on the one hand it’s just this guy. On the other though, he’s not schizophrenic, he’s not an aberration. Granted he’s at the far end of the bell curve in terms of action, but his line of reasoning is ubiquitous.
There is a constant war of symbols going on and attempts to control emotion that’s extremely disparate with reality (or do all housewives have orgasmic joy over a new brand of carpet cleaner?)
Anyone who’s actually been outside that little self-created illusonary womb (whether through raw experiance, intensity of real emotion or skilled reasoning) gets really pissed off when folks like this guy try to impose their version on them.
This fake photo op plastic turkey, the t.v. set community-friends “peace” rather than the actual being unimposed upon peace that seems to only come when you’re armed, willing, and people know it. And that’s not necessarially armed with firearms (although that’s nice too).
The press f’rinstance in this case. The HOA dolt(s) apologized and backed off.
Oddly - despite them thinking it’s a satanic symbol or a ‘screw the troops’ symbol. If someone put up a truly negative symbol (whatever that might be) - or I saw someone trying to burn a cross on my neighbors lawn, I’d risk my life to stop them.
Weird how supposed principles bend and misunderstandings get cleared up once certain forces are brought to bear.
It is indeed well worth selling your cloak for a sword.
posted by Smedleyman at 1:03 PM on November 28, 2006

... the least blinkered among us -- here and elsewhere -- have come to realize that problem is that your "one particular moron" is far from an aberration -- America is full of them ...

You've removed your own blinkers so thoroughly that you can see the most tenuous connections; the ones that don't exist. Do you really think there wouldn't be petty tyrants running HOAs if Al Gore had won the presidency? I'm sure there are plenty of morons and officious pricks where you live, unless you've exiled yourself to a remote mountain peak or something.

Is this just an anal-retentive gene that kicks in once you turn 30 or something?

No, it kicks in when you realize how much of your future is tied to this one single thing you've bought into. I don't care much for HOAs myself, but this post isn't an example of a typical HOA.
posted by me & my monkey at 1:05 PM on November 28, 2006

Do you really think there wouldn't be petty tyrants running HOAs if Al Gore had won the presidency?

Please explain to those of us trying to follow along at home, just where the hell that came from.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 1:16 PM on November 28, 2006

From here.
posted by me & my monkey at 1:24 PM on November 28, 2006

She didn't need any man at all, if you know what I'm saying

OMG - Velma was getting jinky wid it!

There's a rumour on wikipedia that she gets a boyfriend called Steve in the next Doo incarnation. Steve. As in 'Adam and Steve'. Total beardorama
posted by Sparx at 1:24 PM on November 28, 2006

Sorry, I still don't see any reference to Al Gore there. Why are you bringing him up?
posted by Kirth Gerson at 1:34 PM on November 28, 2006

well, at least this thread gave you the chance to tell us how cooler and smarter than all of us you really are. And, damn, you also flaunted that "metonymy" word -- forward your comment to mom and dad, show them that overpriced education was really worth every penny -- I'm sure pretentiousness is a great palliative for the lack of independent thought. for some, at least.

I am smug, sometimes an asshole, my parents are not rich, I did not get an overpriced education, my parent's did not pay for my education, and I was intending to "flaunt" the word metonymy. You get partial credit for attacking a made up person that in some minor respects resembles me. As for the other assumptions which were dead wrong, you are pathetic. Please stick to posting about Catholic doctrine, which I've noticed you have a deep understanding of, rather than denigrating the character of strangers based on one comment. Pathetic.
posted by Falconetti at 2:02 PM on November 28, 2006

Sorry, I still don't see any reference to Al Gore there. Why are you bringing him up?

Are you really that illogical that you can’t figure it out yourself? Okay, I’ll do the math for you:

If you oppose HOAs, you have to support some other kind of association (or else live in complete isolation). Alternatives include the Democratic and Republican parties. Being a Democrat seems to require liking Al Gore. Therefore you have to tolerate Al Gore to hate home owners associations enough to oppose them.
posted by found missing at 2:05 PM on November 28, 2006

An update on the situation, in case anyone is still interested.

The HOA backed down and apologized.
posted by drstein at 3:35 PM on November 28, 2006

oaf writes "What the gibbering fuck is wrong with (large segments of) your country?

"Five people are large segments of our country? Maybe they are of yours.

"And at least we don't have to worry about unknown third parties taking out fraudulent mortages on our homes that we'll be responsible for. You do."

This guy merely typifies what's wrong with large segments of your country--and is in fact emblematic of what's wrong with your government, right on up to the big cheese in the Oval Office. Want to talk about large segments of your country? How about the multiple states with gay marriage amendments in their constitutions? How about the pernicious racism and classism? Shall I go on? America is fucked, man, and it is a depressing thing to watch.

Sure, there's issues with the fraudulent mortgage problem... which are being addressed as we type. What about that whole fraudulent war issue you've got going on there?

me & my monkey writes "Do you really think there wouldn't be petty tyrants running HOAs if Al Gore had won the presidency?"

Of course there would. There just wouldn't be one running your whole damn country.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 3:58 PM on November 28, 2006

Thanks for the update, drstein. From that page:

Bob Kearns, president of the board, and Jeff Heitz, both had their phone numbers changed to unlisted numbers Monday.

Pwned!
posted by grouse at 4:19 PM on November 28, 2006

dirtynumbangelboy, you can go ahead and pretend that Canada's populace acts substantially differently from the way the U.S.'s does, but unfortunately, you won't be able to do much but pretend. All the various -isms still exist in Canada, and there are people who abuse their power there as well. In North America, living at a higher latitude doesn't give you the moral high ground, much as many Canadians like to think it does.

Queen's Park hasn't really done anything to shift the burden away from homeowners and onto banks, but at least we voted the Republicans out of power. That should put some sort of leash on the White House, I hope.
posted by oaf at 4:57 PM on November 28, 2006

as these idiots fight about wreaths: ..."We have been under mortar fire for two days. It is 10:50 p.m. now and we can hear heavy gunfire and an attack against mosques in the area. May God save us all from the injustice of aggressors." ...
posted by amberglow at 5:15 PM on November 28, 2006

Thanks, found missing. Now I have some context for the Al Gore remark.

Also, *ahem*
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:19 PM on November 28, 2006

Christianity has proven itself to be the spiritually blind tool of a blood sucking, war mongering cult.
posted by chance at 8:31 PM on November 28, 2006

oaf writes "dirtynumbangelboy, you can go ahead and pretend that Canada's populace acts substantially differently from the way the U.S.'s does, but unfortunately, you won't be able to do much but pretend."

*blink*

Wow. You're either fantastically ignorant, or being deliberately obtuse.

Let's see... constitutional amendments banning gay marriage? Erosion of civil rights? Enthusiastic participation in a bullshit war? Rigged elections? A populace so apathetic they didn't riot when Bush stole the election the first time, and then let him do it again? A 'health care' system that drives people into grinding poverty if they're not lucky enough to have private insurance? Abstinence-based sex education?

I'll give you a big hint as to which country these things didn't happen in: Starts with C, ends with -anada.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 4:26 AM on November 29, 2006

You're either fantastically ignorant, or being deliberately obtuse.

Said the pot to the kettle.

Basic rights that are guaranteed, unless the government feels like revoking them for five years at a time. A "universal health care" system that doesn't pay for necessary medicine. Kyoto compliance about on the level of the U.S.'s (and Canada has actually agreed to it). A separatist party as Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition (OK, that was years ago, but still, how the hell does that happen?). A normally ruling party that can misuse government funds in whatever way it chooses, and yet know that it will be back in power once Gilles Duceppe wakes up on the wrong side of the bed. A currently ruling party that wants to roll back civil rights advances that Canada has made, and doesn't seem to care about anything that doesn't benefit Alberta, but that's OK because the GST is only 6% now. Signs in English and French on the 401 through Toronto, when they'd serve seven times as many non-anglophones by being in Chinese instead.

I really like (I might even say love) Canada. I am even intrigued by its ideas and wish to subscribe to its newsletter (i.e., move there). But I am definitely annoyed by the large number of people who are all too ready to blame the U.S. for anything bad that happens in the world, regardless of how big or small.

Yes, the U.S. has problems. Big ones. Yes, it causes problems. Big ones. But we're far from alone in that regard, and it doesn't mean all (or even most) of us are crazy.
posted by oaf at 5:29 AM on November 29, 2006 [1 favorite has favorites]

The fines have been dropped, and the three-member board of the association has resigned, according to an e-mail message sent to residents on Monday.

Two board members have disconnected their telephones, apparently to escape the waves of callers asking what the board could have been thinking, residents said. The third board member, with a working phone, did not return a call for comment.

...

Mr. Trimarco said he put up the wreath as a general symbol of peace on earth, not as a commentary on the Iraq war or another political statement.

In any case, there are now more peace symbols in Pagosa Springs, a town of 1,700 people 200 miles southwest of Denver, than probably ever in its history.
posted by caddis at 7:07 AM on November 29, 2006

U.S. Troops Kill 5 Girls in Assault on Insurgents
posted by homunculus at 10:03 AM on November 29, 2006

oaf writes "But I am definitely annoyed by the large number of people who are all too ready to blame the U.S. for anything bad that happens in the world, regardless of how big or small."

But I'm not doing that. I'm blaming the US for bad things that happen in the US.

I never said that Canada doesn't have problems. But seriously, how can you take an honest look at the differences between the USA and Canada, especially social policy, and say what you said?
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 4:03 PM on November 29, 2006

oaf writes "A separatist party as Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition (OK, that was years ago, but still, how the hell does that happen?)"

The Opposition's job is to challenge the government, period.

oaf writes "A 'universal health care' system that doesn't pay for necessary medicine. "

Which is, of course, much, much worse than a healthcare system that only works for the wealthy and insured.

oaf writes "Basic rights that are guaranteed, unless the government feels like revoking them for five years at a time."

Which is, of course, much, much worse than a government which revokes basic rights on a whim. You have heard of the Patriot Act, right?


oaf writes "A normally ruling party that can misuse government funds in whatever way it chooses, and yet know that it will be back in power once Gilles Duceppe wakes up on the wrong side of the bed."

Which is, of course, much, much worse than a government which stole the election, twice, and has been looting the treasury for the past 7 years.

oaf writes "A currently ruling party that wants to roll back civil rights advances that Canada has made, and doesn't seem to care about anything that doesn't benefit Alberta, but that's OK because the GST is only 6% now."

Which is, of course, much, much worse than a currently ruling President (and Governors, and State legislatures) that is preventing any civil rights advances from happening, doesn't seem to care about anything that doesn't benefit the American wealthy, but that's OK because....why, exactly?

oaf writes "Signs in English and French on the 401 through Toronto, when they'd serve seven times as many non-anglophones by being in Chinese instead."

Now that one, I'll agree with.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 5:00 PM on November 29, 2006

I seem to have suffered from extraneous commas.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 5:01 PM on November 29, 2006

tev writes "Tell me, why do people want HOAs? "

To lazy to think yet are still afraid their neighbours might?
posted by Mitheral at 1:42 PM on December 5, 2006