Adios Viejo
December 10, 2006 10:04 AM Subscribe
Adios Viejo! Pinochet dies!
Nice to see another one of history's bad men gone.
posted by geeknik at 10:10 AM on December 10, 2006
posted by geeknik at 10:10 AM on December 10, 2006
Seriously?!? Pinochet gets a period? I don't think so.
posted by Aquaman at 10:10 AM on December 10, 2006
posted by Aquaman at 10:10 AM on December 10, 2006
Any word on Thatcher?
posted by cillit bang at 10:11 AM on December 10, 2006
posted by cillit bang at 10:11 AM on December 10, 2006
Make sure that the memory of desaparecidos and why they disappeared isn't forgotten.
posted by elpapacito at 10:13 AM on December 10, 2006
posted by elpapacito at 10:13 AM on December 10, 2006
Shame they could only hound him, and never put the prick in prison.
posted by Meatbomb at 10:13 AM on December 10, 2006
posted by Meatbomb at 10:13 AM on December 10, 2006
mad props to the successful prosecutors that managed to allow Pinochet, one of the twentieth century's criminals, to die as a rich, free man, happily 91 years old.
posted by matteo at 10:17 AM on December 10, 2006
posted by matteo at 10:17 AM on December 10, 2006
...but not rotting in a prison cell.
posted by dilettante at 10:20 AM on December 10, 2006
posted by dilettante at 10:20 AM on December 10, 2006
.
posted by Spacelegoman at 10:20 AM on December 10, 2006
posted by Spacelegoman at 10:20 AM on December 10, 2006
:D!!!!!!!!!!!
I wish he'd been prosecuted. I wish he'd died in a firing squad, or rotting in a prison cell. But this will do, indeed.
Make sure that the memory of desaparecidos and why they disappeared isn't forgotten.
What he said.
posted by kalimac at 10:27 AM on December 10, 2006
I wish he'd been prosecuted. I wish he'd died in a firing squad, or rotting in a prison cell. But this will do, indeed.
Make sure that the memory of desaparecidos and why they disappeared isn't forgotten.
What he said.
posted by kalimac at 10:27 AM on December 10, 2006
Everyone gets a period - if only to make a statement about our humanity in the absence of the deceased's humanity.
.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:31 AM on December 10, 2006
.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:31 AM on December 10, 2006
:-)
posted by five fresh fish at 10:31 AM on December 10, 2006
posted by five fresh fish at 10:31 AM on December 10, 2006
¡!
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:32 AM on December 10, 2006
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:32 AM on December 10, 2006
Shame that he never really got what was coming to him in this lifetime. His passing shall not be mourned.
posted by msali at 10:33 AM on December 10, 2006
posted by msali at 10:33 AM on December 10, 2006
fuck him too
posted by growabrain at 10:34 AM on December 10, 2006
posted by growabrain at 10:34 AM on December 10, 2006
Everyone gets a period
..... OH SHIT I'M PREGNANT
posted by Arcaz Ino at 10:35 AM on December 10, 2006 [3 favorites]
..... OH SHIT I'M PREGNANT
posted by Arcaz Ino at 10:35 AM on December 10, 2006 [3 favorites]
Shame that he never really got what was coming to him in this lifetime.
Depending on your religious beliefs, he's probably getting something a lot worse now. :)
posted by Atreides at 10:36 AM on December 10, 2006
Depending on your religious beliefs, he's probably getting something a lot worse now. :)
posted by Atreides at 10:36 AM on December 10, 2006
.|.
posted by loquacious at 10:37 AM on December 10, 2006
posted by loquacious at 10:37 AM on December 10, 2006
He's probably getting something a lot worse now
It's almost enough to make you want to believe in hell. Enjoy the flames, General.
posted by jokeefe at 10:42 AM on December 10, 2006
It's almost enough to make you want to believe in hell. Enjoy the flames, General.
posted by jokeefe at 10:42 AM on December 10, 2006
What do 3000 periods look like anyway?
posted by John Shaft at 11:02 AM on December 10, 2006
posted by John Shaft at 11:02 AM on December 10, 2006
On a second note, maybe some lead poisoning may have cured him long before. Yet somehow I guess he would have been replaced by another Pope ?
posted by elpapacito at 11:02 AM on December 10, 2006
posted by elpapacito at 11:02 AM on December 10, 2006
A heart attack is a nicer way to go than, say, being summarily executed, tortured, audaciosly assassinated by car bomb in Washington DC, or thrown out of a helicopter into the ocean tied to concrete blocks.
RIP, Pinochet's 2,278 victims.
posted by footnote at 11:05 AM on December 10, 2006
RIP, Pinochet's 2,278 victims.
posted by footnote at 11:05 AM on December 10, 2006
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posted by public at 11:19 AM on December 10, 2006
I just did a little happy dance, but am sad he didn't go to trial.
posted by notsnot at 11:39 AM on December 10, 2006
posted by notsnot at 11:39 AM on December 10, 2006
It's almost enough to make you want to believe in hell. Enjoy the flames, General.
Amen.
posted by scody at 11:40 AM on December 10, 2006
Amen.
posted by scody at 11:40 AM on December 10, 2006
F$$K.... he owed me 130 bucks.
one of the twentieth century's criminals,
yeah, just an ordinary punk...ohhhh a typo...."worst" perhaps?
why worse....Because he KILLED people. see, it gets one that, that rotten feel....not like our Milianese magic fingerman no?
(can you believe Pacino is going to DEFILE that movie)
posted by clavdivs at 11:47 AM on December 10, 2006
one of the twentieth century's criminals,
yeah, just an ordinary punk...ohhhh a typo...."worst" perhaps?
why worse....Because he KILLED people. see, it gets one that, that rotten feel....not like our Milianese magic fingerman no?
(can you believe Pacino is going to DEFILE that movie)
posted by clavdivs at 11:47 AM on December 10, 2006
I remember when SNL (during the Piscopo/Murphy days) held a contest to see if anyone could guess the year and method of Pinochet's ouster, which then happened years later. I always wondered if they actually came through for the winner. Probably not.
posted by fungible at 11:49 AM on December 10, 2006
posted by fungible at 11:49 AM on December 10, 2006
The difference in reactions to Pinochet and Castro absolutely amaze me. Both took power violently on the basis of ideology, both ruled autocratically, and both killed thousands of political and social "enemies of the state". If everyone's being honest, Castro killed, tortured and imprisioned far more internal opponents, real and imagined (homosexuals) than Pinochet ever did. In Cuba and Chile there is mixed opinion of their respective time in power and their legacies. Yet Pinochet is almost universally reviled while Castro has leagues of apologists. People castigate Washington for their support of Pinochet, and their opposition to Castro.
When Castro dies (hopefully as soon as possible), will there be glee on Metafilter, or apologies for his murderous, illiberal, criminal regime? I certainly can't imagine that his obit thread will look anything like this.
posted by loquax at 11:50 AM on December 10, 2006 [1 favorite]
When Castro dies (hopefully as soon as possible), will there be glee on Metafilter, or apologies for his murderous, illiberal, criminal regime? I certainly can't imagine that his obit thread will look anything like this.
posted by loquax at 11:50 AM on December 10, 2006 [1 favorite]
When Castro dies (hopefully as soon as possible), will there be glee on Metafilter, or apologies for his murderous, illiberal, criminal regime? I certainly can't imagine that his obit thread will look anything like this.
Aside from a few dusty old commies, I doubt there'll be that many sorry to se the old bastard go.
posted by jonmc at 11:58 AM on December 10, 2006
Aside from a few dusty old commies, I doubt there'll be that many sorry to se the old bastard go.
posted by jonmc at 11:58 AM on December 10, 2006
In Cuba and Chile there is mixed opinion of their respective time in power and their legacies. Yet Pinochet is almost universally reviled while Castro has leagues of apologists.
I think the main difference is that Pinochet got his support from the US whereas Castro did not. Many people who study Latin American politics point to a very hostile attitude towards Castro by the United States which has made the regime authoritarian. On the contrary, Pinochet got much support from the United States. Whereas Castro was one to kick out US corporations, Pinochet welcomed them. Batista, who Castro overthrew, was not democratically elected. Allende was a democratically elected president who was assassinated by Pinochet (they claim its a suicide, yeah right). It is a lot easier to have sympathy with Castro when the United States is constantly sending hostile messages (the cigars we sent him that when lit probably sent him over the edge).
posted by j-urb at 12:06 PM on December 10, 2006
I think the main difference is that Pinochet got his support from the US whereas Castro did not. Many people who study Latin American politics point to a very hostile attitude towards Castro by the United States which has made the regime authoritarian. On the contrary, Pinochet got much support from the United States. Whereas Castro was one to kick out US corporations, Pinochet welcomed them. Batista, who Castro overthrew, was not democratically elected. Allende was a democratically elected president who was assassinated by Pinochet (they claim its a suicide, yeah right). It is a lot easier to have sympathy with Castro when the United States is constantly sending hostile messages (the cigars we sent him that when lit probably sent him over the edge).
posted by j-urb at 12:06 PM on December 10, 2006
Ahh, couldn't have happened to a nicer fella. There's a nice warm seat for him right next to General Franco.
posted by ob at 12:16 PM on December 10, 2006
posted by ob at 12:16 PM on December 10, 2006
This is not to say that what Castro has done is right. Castro, Pinochet, and the United States government (particularly the United States government because that is the only one which is democratic) share responsibility. I don't know whats worse, a totalitarian state or a the democratically elected state that supports the totalitarian state.
posted by j-urb at 12:16 PM on December 10, 2006
posted by j-urb at 12:16 PM on December 10, 2006
Uhmm, I think Pinochet's death leaves me much happier than Castro's will ever do. Not because I think Castro is less of a criminal (he certainly isn't), but, paradoxically, because Pinochet at least quit years before and Chile, despite all his crimes, is a reasonably healthy, wealthy democracy where Pinochet's passing is unlikely to have much of an impact.
The day Castro dies, on the other hand, the sh*t is really going to hit the fan...
posted by Skeptic at 12:17 PM on December 10, 2006
The day Castro dies, on the other hand, the sh*t is really going to hit the fan...
posted by Skeptic at 12:17 PM on December 10, 2006
Errr: big difference between Castro and Pinochet.
Castro took power violently against another non-democratically elected strongman in what was agrguably a popular revolution. (At least at the beginning, before he turned into just another repressive fuck, albeit one with good healthcare options in his pseudo-facist state).
Pinochet kicked out a democratically elected president, with the CIAs support. Did the torture thing in a vast conspiracy across latin america, again supported by the CIA. No healthcare.
This is what sticks in lefties craws. The healthcare. And, more seriously the fact that we supported this scumbag, who directly and indirectly enabled the dissapearances of many tens of thousands of peoples across a continent, because he was "a bastard - but our bastard.".
posted by lalochezia at 12:19 PM on December 10, 2006
Castro took power violently against another non-democratically elected strongman in what was agrguably a popular revolution. (At least at the beginning, before he turned into just another repressive fuck, albeit one with good healthcare options in his pseudo-facist state).
Pinochet kicked out a democratically elected president, with the CIAs support. Did the torture thing in a vast conspiracy across latin america, again supported by the CIA. No healthcare.
This is what sticks in lefties craws. The healthcare. And, more seriously the fact that we supported this scumbag, who directly and indirectly enabled the dissapearances of many tens of thousands of peoples across a continent, because he was "a bastard - but our bastard.".
posted by lalochezia at 12:19 PM on December 10, 2006
BTW, j-urb, Castro started executing people en masse as soon as he took power. It didn't take US intervention to turn him into a nasty dictator.
US stupidity, on the other hand, is certainly to blame for the fact that he's been able to cling onto power since...
posted by Skeptic at 12:19 PM on December 10, 2006
US stupidity, on the other hand, is certainly to blame for the fact that he's been able to cling onto power since...
posted by Skeptic at 12:19 PM on December 10, 2006
He stayed alive a lot longer than he deserved to. >:P
posted by maryh at 12:23 PM on December 10, 2006
posted by maryh at 12:23 PM on December 10, 2006
It is a lot easier to have sympathy with Castro when the United States is constantly sending hostile messages
On the other hand, the Soviet Union was Casto's bestest bud. Whatever support the US gave Pinochet, it was nothing compared to the support the USSR gave Castro - that healthcare and literacy program? Yeah, it wasn't Castro. And if "lefties" are giving out props in means vs. ends arguments, I'd rather be a Chilean than a Cuban today. Doesn't Pinochet deserve equal sympathy for being shunned by the communist world? If Pinochet was "our bastard", Castro was the KGB's bastard. I fail to see the difference when it comes to ascribing blame for their victims. Or to be more clear, I do see the difference, but it has everything to do with political ideology and hypocrasy rather than genuine outrage over thier respective actions.
posted by loquax at 12:28 PM on December 10, 2006
On the other hand, the Soviet Union was Casto's bestest bud. Whatever support the US gave Pinochet, it was nothing compared to the support the USSR gave Castro - that healthcare and literacy program? Yeah, it wasn't Castro. And if "lefties" are giving out props in means vs. ends arguments, I'd rather be a Chilean than a Cuban today. Doesn't Pinochet deserve equal sympathy for being shunned by the communist world? If Pinochet was "our bastard", Castro was the KGB's bastard. I fail to see the difference when it comes to ascribing blame for their victims. Or to be more clear, I do see the difference, but it has everything to do with political ideology and hypocrasy rather than genuine outrage over thier respective actions.
posted by loquax at 12:28 PM on December 10, 2006
Yet Pinochet is almost universally reviled...
Maggie still liked him.
posted by slimepuppy at 12:30 PM on December 10, 2006
Maggie still liked him.
posted by slimepuppy at 12:30 PM on December 10, 2006
You can't go left in General Pinochet's Cadillac, at least, not without having your thumbs screwed. So, good riddance. One less blob of evil on the planet. As for Pinochet's "humanity", I don't personally count mass murderers and torturers as part of the species. They leave me to ponder whether there's more than one species that look like humans.
posted by crispynubbins at 1:07 PM on December 10, 2006
posted by crispynubbins at 1:07 PM on December 10, 2006
Er, J-urb, Allende was the democratically elected president "who committed suicide" in Argentina.
posted by stratastar at 1:12 PM on December 10, 2006
posted by stratastar at 1:12 PM on December 10, 2006
Tramp the dirt down.
posted by Elmore at 1:14 PM on December 10, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by Elmore at 1:14 PM on December 10, 2006 [1 favorite]
Live, from Chile:
Things are pretty calm, basically. There's like 10000 people celebrating downtown, like 1000 pinochetistas waving flags and throwing stuff at reporters in front of the hospital where the scumbag died. Some barricades and stuff in the poblaciones (slums) in the periphery.
All in all much, much less noise than when Bachelet won the presidency.
This is not really a huge deal, Pinochet wasn't terribly important politically for the last decade or so. The right is probably happy, as he was an embarrassment to them.
All in all, the people I've spoken (and drank) with today are happy, though a bit chagrined that he died in a hospital rather than in jail.
There's an old saying: "no hay mal que dure 100 años"(there is no evil that lasts 100 years). Apparently, evil lasts 91 years.
And stratastar: you have no idea what you're talking about, Allende was killed by Pinochet's minions in La Moneda, Chile's presidential palace.
posted by signal at 1:30 PM on December 10, 2006
Things are pretty calm, basically. There's like 10000 people celebrating downtown, like 1000 pinochetistas waving flags and throwing stuff at reporters in front of the hospital where the scumbag died. Some barricades and stuff in the poblaciones (slums) in the periphery.
All in all much, much less noise than when Bachelet won the presidency.
This is not really a huge deal, Pinochet wasn't terribly important politically for the last decade or so. The right is probably happy, as he was an embarrassment to them.
All in all, the people I've spoken (and drank) with today are happy, though a bit chagrined that he died in a hospital rather than in jail.
There's an old saying: "no hay mal que dure 100 años"(there is no evil that lasts 100 years). Apparently, evil lasts 91 years.
And stratastar: you have no idea what you're talking about, Allende was killed by Pinochet's minions in La Moneda, Chile's presidential palace.
posted by signal at 1:30 PM on December 10, 2006
More than 3,000 people were killed or "disappeared" over the next 17 years.
3,000? How many people have died to spread our current president's version of democracy in just six years?
posted by Titania at 1:42 PM on December 10, 2006
3,000? How many people have died to spread our current president's version of democracy in just six years?
posted by Titania at 1:42 PM on December 10, 2006
Here's the last known pic of Allende during his lifetime. (And, yeah, Chile.)
posted by GrammarMoses at 1:47 PM on December 10, 2006
posted by GrammarMoses at 1:47 PM on December 10, 2006
Maggie still liked him.
I think you mean Maggie still likes him.
posted by dw at 2:03 PM on December 10, 2006
I think you mean Maggie still likes him.
posted by dw at 2:03 PM on December 10, 2006
Pinochet had Allende killed on *another* September 11.
Official reports state that Allende committed suicide as forces led by Augusto Pinochet advanced on La Moneda, the fortress-like presidential palace in Santiago. Unofficial reports claim that Allende's body had dozens of bullet wounds in it, meaning that during his suicide, he would have had to pause several times to reload.
Yes, Pinochet was quite a guy. Asesino!
posted by nj_subgenius at 2:20 PM on December 10, 2006
Official reports state that Allende committed suicide as forces led by Augusto Pinochet advanced on La Moneda, the fortress-like presidential palace in Santiago. Unofficial reports claim that Allende's body had dozens of bullet wounds in it, meaning that during his suicide, he would have had to pause several times to reload.
Yes, Pinochet was quite a guy. Asesino!
posted by nj_subgenius at 2:20 PM on December 10, 2006
Titania : "3,000? How many people have died to spread our current president's version of democracy in just six years?"
Put that in proportion. 3,000 in a 12,000,000 population means something around 90,000 for a 300,000,000 population. A little less than 60,000 American soldiers died in the Vietnam war, and those were soldiers fighting in a war. Imagine the FBI arresting, torturing and killing 90,000 US citizens in US soil for their political beliefs.
posted by nkyad at 2:20 PM on December 10, 2006
Put that in proportion. 3,000 in a 12,000,000 population means something around 90,000 for a 300,000,000 population. A little less than 60,000 American soldiers died in the Vietnam war, and those were soldiers fighting in a war. Imagine the FBI arresting, torturing and killing 90,000 US citizens in US soil for their political beliefs.
posted by nkyad at 2:20 PM on December 10, 2006
Because of course, Iraqis aren't people.
posted by cillit bang at 2:27 PM on December 10, 2006
posted by cillit bang at 2:27 PM on December 10, 2006
Stratastar, I think you need to dust of the history book before you start getting snarky. Allende found dead in downtown Santiago's La Moneda presidential palace in the 1973 coup, obstensibly by his own hand (though subsequent testimony and eye-witness reports of the palace raid indicate that he was actually killed either by CIA personelle or Pinochete troops). It's pretty much a known fact by now that he most likely DID NOT committ suicide was rather, was assasinated. History, check it out sometime.
As a former resident in Santiago, I say good riddance to Pinochete.
posted by tiger yang at 2:27 PM on December 10, 2006
As a former resident in Santiago, I say good riddance to Pinochete.
posted by tiger yang at 2:27 PM on December 10, 2006
And maybe I should check out the spell check feature before I post...
posted by tiger yang at 2:37 PM on December 10, 2006
posted by tiger yang at 2:37 PM on December 10, 2006
Like Maggie, Senator Jesse Helms was fired up about Pinochet, too.
posted by crispynubbins at 3:01 PM on December 10, 2006
posted by crispynubbins at 3:01 PM on December 10, 2006
Kissinger is rapidly running out of friends.
posted by Optamystic at 3:16 PM on December 10, 2006
posted by Optamystic at 3:16 PM on December 10, 2006
I once heard Ariel Dorfman, the author of "Death And The Maiden" interviewed.
He was asked what he thought was the appropriate punishment for someone who had done so much evil.
He said that Pinochet should be strapped in a chair and a procession of his victims families, one by one, should just get to look him in the eye for a few seconds and say "you killed my father", "you killed my husband", "you killed my sister" in their turn. It would have taken weeks for everyone to file past.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 3:35 PM on December 10, 2006 [1 favorite]
He was asked what he thought was the appropriate punishment for someone who had done so much evil.
He said that Pinochet should be strapped in a chair and a procession of his victims families, one by one, should just get to look him in the eye for a few seconds and say "you killed my father", "you killed my husband", "you killed my sister" in their turn. It would have taken weeks for everyone to file past.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 3:35 PM on December 10, 2006 [1 favorite]
Any word on Thatcher?
Well...She's greatly sadenned about it.
posted by Jimbob at 3:54 PM on December 10, 2006
Well...She's greatly sadenned about it.
posted by Jimbob at 3:54 PM on December 10, 2006
Generalísimo Francisco Franco is still dead.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:17 PM on December 10, 2006
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:17 PM on December 10, 2006
For those of you playing with numbers in this thread:
The number of people murdered or disappeared as a result of Pinochet's regime do not add up to the total toll of what he did. There are a lot of "social wounds" that can't be accounted for with numbers. A regime like that often breaks the links between individuals in a society. The way people live in fear and end up suspecting each other and fearing an uncertain fate ends up destroying "normal life" in a society, and that takes many, many years to heal.
It is ridiculous to be trying to measure his "badness" from the number of people accounted to have died because of him. And then comparing it with that of others.
Pinochet was a mischievous person. What he did is unjustifiable, and it is a bit silly to try to measure it with statistics.
posted by micayetoca at 4:30 PM on December 10, 2006
The number of people murdered or disappeared as a result of Pinochet's regime do not add up to the total toll of what he did. There are a lot of "social wounds" that can't be accounted for with numbers. A regime like that often breaks the links between individuals in a society. The way people live in fear and end up suspecting each other and fearing an uncertain fate ends up destroying "normal life" in a society, and that takes many, many years to heal.
It is ridiculous to be trying to measure his "badness" from the number of people accounted to have died because of him. And then comparing it with that of others.
Pinochet was a mischievous person. What he did is unjustifiable, and it is a bit silly to try to measure it with statistics.
posted by micayetoca at 4:30 PM on December 10, 2006
Just to add to what micayetoca said:
Pinochet had people shot
Pinochet had people beaten to death
Pinochet had people burned to death
Pinochet had people thrown from helicopters (live people)
Pinochet had people raped
Pinochet had people raped by dogs
Pinochet had people have pipes shoved in their vaginas and asses, and rats shoved down these pipes
Pinochet had pregnant women raped
Pinochet had pregnant women raped and killed
Pinochet had people blinded under torture
Pinochet had people maimed under torture
Pinochet had people murdered by torture
Pinochet had people exiled
Pinochet had people blacklisted so they couldn't get jobs
Pinochet had people's pensions stripped from them
Pinochet had people sent to internal exile on far off islands where they had to fend for themselves
Pinochet had people tortured, then forced to walk around with his agents identifying their friends, coworkers and relatives, so they could, in turn, be tortured, etc.
Pinochet had millions of people's houses be searched, vandalized and robbed by the military looking for "terrorists"
Pinochet had people ridiculed publicly for searching for their disappeared relatives
Pinochet had papers publish bogus stories about how the disappeared where actually living it up in other countries
Pinochet had Victor Jara's hands broken by his thugs
Pinochet had Victor Jara shot
Pinochet had people turning in their neighbors as "communists"
Pinochet had people living in fear of their neighbors
Pinochet had the Universities under military control, to "protect" them
Pinochet had political parties shut down, and their possessions confiscated
Pinochet had indians and poor farmers shot
Pinochet had one of my relatives tortured and his friends shot next to him
posted by signal at 4:44 PM on December 10, 2006 [9 favorites]
Pinochet had people shot
Pinochet had people beaten to death
Pinochet had people burned to death
Pinochet had people thrown from helicopters (live people)
Pinochet had people raped
Pinochet had people raped by dogs
Pinochet had people have pipes shoved in their vaginas and asses, and rats shoved down these pipes
Pinochet had pregnant women raped
Pinochet had pregnant women raped and killed
Pinochet had people blinded under torture
Pinochet had people maimed under torture
Pinochet had people murdered by torture
Pinochet had people exiled
Pinochet had people blacklisted so they couldn't get jobs
Pinochet had people's pensions stripped from them
Pinochet had people sent to internal exile on far off islands where they had to fend for themselves
Pinochet had people tortured, then forced to walk around with his agents identifying their friends, coworkers and relatives, so they could, in turn, be tortured, etc.
Pinochet had millions of people's houses be searched, vandalized and robbed by the military looking for "terrorists"
Pinochet had people ridiculed publicly for searching for their disappeared relatives
Pinochet had papers publish bogus stories about how the disappeared where actually living it up in other countries
Pinochet had Victor Jara's hands broken by his thugs
Pinochet had Victor Jara shot
Pinochet had people turning in their neighbors as "communists"
Pinochet had people living in fear of their neighbors
Pinochet had the Universities under military control, to "protect" them
Pinochet had political parties shut down, and their possessions confiscated
Pinochet had indians and poor farmers shot
Pinochet had one of my relatives tortured and his friends shot next to him
posted by signal at 4:44 PM on December 10, 2006 [9 favorites]
Amen signal.
posted by prettyboyfloyd at 4:58 PM on December 10, 2006
posted by prettyboyfloyd at 4:58 PM on December 10, 2006
My dad spent half of his life in the states because of that guy (as I have spent most of mine). He won't be missed by my family.
posted by lazymonster at 5:07 PM on December 10, 2006
posted by lazymonster at 5:07 PM on December 10, 2006
What's the opposite of "."?
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:56 PM on December 10, 2006
posted by mr_crash_davis at 5:56 PM on December 10, 2006
What is the opposite of a period, anyway?
I lived in Chile as a wee tot and when the coup came down, we were back in the US. As it became apparent that the US had actively supported the coup and continued to support the regime, I had to confront the sort of loss-of-faith moment most others undergo at 17 or 18.
I was about six, and my family kept in touch with Chilean friends for years after. You could see their personalities change and their discource curtail to avoid the danger of becoming a disappeared person.
Furthermore, the Chilean coup has long been regarded as a foreign-policy success within US power circles and directly inspired (IMHO) both the horrors of the mid-80's civil wars in Central America and our current all-out assault on contitutional guarantees of civil liberties and due process. Pinochet has damaged America more than Osama ever could.
posted by mwhybark at 6:01 PM on December 10, 2006
I lived in Chile as a wee tot and when the coup came down, we were back in the US. As it became apparent that the US had actively supported the coup and continued to support the regime, I had to confront the sort of loss-of-faith moment most others undergo at 17 or 18.
I was about six, and my family kept in touch with Chilean friends for years after. You could see their personalities change and their discource curtail to avoid the danger of becoming a disappeared person.
Furthermore, the Chilean coup has long been regarded as a foreign-policy success within US power circles and directly inspired (IMHO) both the horrors of the mid-80's civil wars in Central America and our current all-out assault on contitutional guarantees of civil liberties and due process. Pinochet has damaged America more than Osama ever could.
posted by mwhybark at 6:01 PM on December 10, 2006
son of b*tch is dead. good riddance. CNN was just commenting about the left "alleging that he was involved with atrocities in Chile" - disgusting.
posted by specialk420 at 6:40 PM on December 10, 2006
posted by specialk420 at 6:40 PM on December 10, 2006
Hell has a new attraction.
posted by sacre_bleu at 6:42 PM on December 10, 2006
posted by sacre_bleu at 6:42 PM on December 10, 2006
* .|.posted by loquacious at 6:48 PM on December 10, 2006
Er, J-urb, Allende was the democratically elected president "who committed suicide" in Argentina.
Yeah, I think they've got some photos of Allende "committing suicide in Argentina."*
*By committing suicide in Argentina of course I mean being shot by soldiers in a soccer stadium.
Maybe a DC MeFite should go drop some flowers at the memorial in Sheridan Circle where Allende's foreign minister, Orlando Letelier and his associate, Ronnie Karpen Moffitt, "committed suicide" by car bombing their own volvo within visual range of the Chilean Ambassador's bedroom window.
posted by Pollomacho at 6:49 PM on December 10, 2006
Yeah, I think they've got some photos of Allende "committing suicide in Argentina."*
*By committing suicide in Argentina of course I mean being shot by soldiers in a soccer stadium.
Maybe a DC MeFite should go drop some flowers at the memorial in Sheridan Circle where Allende's foreign minister, Orlando Letelier and his associate, Ronnie Karpen Moffitt, "committed suicide" by car bombing their own volvo within visual range of the Chilean Ambassador's bedroom window.
posted by Pollomacho at 6:49 PM on December 10, 2006
D'oh. I only now realized the title of this FPP may or may not refer to Tito Puente's Revenge.
It may not surprise you,
But all of us despise you,
Please die,
And fry,
In Hell,
You rotten,
Rich old wretch,
Adios viejo!
posted by dw at 6:54 PM on December 10, 2006
It may not surprise you,
But all of us despise you,
Please die,
And fry,
In Hell,
You rotten,
Rich old wretch,
Adios viejo!
posted by dw at 6:54 PM on December 10, 2006
funny, I thought it was a direct translation from "goodbye, old man" which sounds kinda derogatory in English, but in Spanish it sounds almost nostalgic.
posted by micayetoca at 7:02 PM on December 10, 2006
posted by micayetoca at 7:02 PM on December 10, 2006
RIP Charlie Horman. Here's to Kissinger and Thatcher and the rest of these monsters living long enough to face some real justice.
posted by mano at 7:15 PM on December 10, 2006
posted by mano at 7:15 PM on December 10, 2006
Kissinger is rapidly running out of friends.
He's made new friends.
posted by homunculus at 7:20 PM on December 10, 2006
He's made new friends.
posted by homunculus at 7:20 PM on December 10, 2006
Lots of talk up-thread about how "reviled" Pinochet is. True enough -- at least on MeFi. But not true everywhere. Why, even those dedicated lefties at NPR seem to be kind of soft on the old bastard man.
posted by lodurr at 7:32 PM on December 10, 2006
posted by lodurr at 7:32 PM on December 10, 2006
[Thatcher] added: "I'm also very much aware that it is you who brought democracy to Chile, you set up a constitution suitable for democracy, you put it into effect, elections were held, and then, in accordance with the result, you stepped down."
posted by stammer at 8:40 PM on December 10, 2006
posted by stammer at 8:40 PM on December 10, 2006
Holy shit, it's clavdivs! (coming soon to NBC).
Also: I am interested and amused by the near-universal celebratory response (justified, certainly -- I'd piss on his fresh grave if I could piss that far) to the death of this villain when contrasted with the scolding tone taken by some when similar pleasure was expressed at the death of Ronald Reagan.
It can be argued that Pinochet was the greater villain, of course. And he wasn't an American president.
People may shout at me because I said this. Ah well.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 9:08 PM on December 10, 2006
Also: I am interested and amused by the near-universal celebratory response (justified, certainly -- I'd piss on his fresh grave if I could piss that far) to the death of this villain when contrasted with the scolding tone taken by some when similar pleasure was expressed at the death of Ronald Reagan.
It can be argued that Pinochet was the greater villain, of course. And he wasn't an American president.
People may shout at me because I said this. Ah well.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 9:08 PM on December 10, 2006
You'll get no scolding from me Stav.
posted by Pollomacho at 9:31 PM on December 10, 2006
posted by Pollomacho at 9:31 PM on December 10, 2006
loquax : "I'd rather be a Chilean than a Cuban today"
Who wouldn't? With the United States commercial blockade and constant political pressure, it is a small wonder that Cuba still exists in its present form. I think that if it wasn't for Osama, Bush and his minions would have already "brought democracy" to the island in the form of a military invasion followed by mass killings and the return to the pre-59 status quo, thus giving the American corporation world and the exiled Republican voters in Florida their long waited bloody revenge.
I imagine it is very hard for the average American to understand how much their country's support for people like Pinochet and Baptista (the American front-man Fidel ousted) contributed to the past and present underlying cultural rejection of the US in most Latin American countries. Their long war against Cuba only adds to the same pot (the general impression is that without the US ever present and always renewed threats, Cuba could have already become a democratic state).
posted by nkyad at 10:19 PM on December 10, 2006
Who wouldn't? With the United States commercial blockade and constant political pressure, it is a small wonder that Cuba still exists in its present form. I think that if it wasn't for Osama, Bush and his minions would have already "brought democracy" to the island in the form of a military invasion followed by mass killings and the return to the pre-59 status quo, thus giving the American corporation world and the exiled Republican voters in Florida their long waited bloody revenge.
I imagine it is very hard for the average American to understand how much their country's support for people like Pinochet and Baptista (the American front-man Fidel ousted) contributed to the past and present underlying cultural rejection of the US in most Latin American countries. Their long war against Cuba only adds to the same pot (the general impression is that without the US ever present and always renewed threats, Cuba could have already become a democratic state).
posted by nkyad at 10:19 PM on December 10, 2006
"On the other hand, the Soviet Union was Casto's bestest bud."
No, not really. Cuba became buddies with the Soviets after they were pretty well rebuffed by the Americans. I mean, they weren't Nicaragua (who were really ardent with the Third Way), but Cuba had just as many disagreements with the Kremlin as China did; Cuba wasn't a Latin Estonia.
(And the health care has kept going decently well after the collapse of the USSR, though certainly not to the same levels).
And as for actual, relevant comparisons, I'd prefer to be in Cuba than to be in Haiti, and we're nominally friends with Haiti.
posted by klangklangston at 11:10 PM on December 10, 2006
No, not really. Cuba became buddies with the Soviets after they were pretty well rebuffed by the Americans. I mean, they weren't Nicaragua (who were really ardent with the Third Way), but Cuba had just as many disagreements with the Kremlin as China did; Cuba wasn't a Latin Estonia.
(And the health care has kept going decently well after the collapse of the USSR, though certainly not to the same levels).
And as for actual, relevant comparisons, I'd prefer to be in Cuba than to be in Haiti, and we're nominally friends with Haiti.
posted by klangklangston at 11:10 PM on December 10, 2006
Are you asking that seriously? I mean really?
We should not be living in an age where national leaders should be making this choice. Despotism should be something left to history, alas it is not.
posted by Pollomacho at 11:41 PM on December 10, 2006
We should not be living in an age where national leaders should be making this choice. Despotism should be something left to history, alas it is not.
posted by Pollomacho at 11:41 PM on December 10, 2006
Glad that he's dead, though I would have preferred it been a sniper bullet to the head many, many years ago.
posted by antifuse at 2:48 AM on December 11, 2006
posted by antifuse at 2:48 AM on December 11, 2006
Who wouldn't? With the United States commercial blockade and constant political pressure, it is a small wonder that Cuba still exists in its present form.
So then it's safe to say that due to American support and investment, Chile is what it is today, and it was American support that led Pinochet to resign and return Chile to democracy?
the exiled Republican voters in Florida their long waited bloody revenge.
Exiled Chileans are victims, and exiled Cubans are rabid republican voters? Doesn't seem fair.
posted by loquax at 3:33 AM on December 11, 2006
So then it's safe to say that due to American support and investment, Chile is what it is today, and it was American support that led Pinochet to resign and return Chile to democracy?
the exiled Republican voters in Florida their long waited bloody revenge.
Exiled Chileans are victims, and exiled Cubans are rabid republican voters? Doesn't seem fair.
posted by loquax at 3:33 AM on December 11, 2006
None of what you wrote follows from the sentences that you quote, loquax.
Exiled Chileans are victims, and exiled Cubans are rabid republican voters? Doesn't seem fair.
Chileans can return to their country without much fear of the death squads etc of the illegitimate Pinochet regime since he stepped down after the withdrawal of US support.
The Cuban exile community is well known for being dominated by the ousted rich and right wing supporters of the illegitimate US backed Batista regime. Members of the community are admitted terrorists aided and abetted by successive US governments. They receive $millions in aid to 'promote democracy' which is often spent on promoting the use of playstations and other luxury goods amongst their friends and family.
There is nothing fair about them.
posted by asok at 5:15 AM on December 11, 2006
Exiled Chileans are victims, and exiled Cubans are rabid republican voters? Doesn't seem fair.
Chileans can return to their country without much fear of the death squads etc of the illegitimate Pinochet regime since he stepped down after the withdrawal of US support.
The Cuban exile community is well known for being dominated by the ousted rich and right wing supporters of the illegitimate US backed Batista regime. Members of the community are admitted terrorists aided and abetted by successive US governments. They receive $millions in aid to 'promote democracy' which is often spent on promoting the use of playstations and other luxury goods amongst their friends and family.
There is nothing fair about them.
posted by asok at 5:15 AM on December 11, 2006
Wish I could have kicked him in the teeth in the last few minutes.
posted by spitbull at 5:18 AM on December 11, 2006
posted by spitbull at 5:18 AM on December 11, 2006
Exiled Chileans are victims, and exiled Cubans are rabid republican voters? Doesn't seem fair.
Funny how that works -- when what's obvious and clear doesn't seem fair.
So then it's safe to say that due to American support and investment, Chile is what it is today, and it was American support that led Pinochet to resign and return Chile to democracy?
It was, in fact, American pressure that led Pinochet to hold a plebiscite that required him to leave office, yes. Though he didn't exactly resign willingly.
And someone should point out, explicitly and clearly, that it's the external pressure from US sanctions that's propped Castro up for all these years, even more than Soviet aid -- especially since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Without a US bogeyman, and with unhindered trade, Cubans would have stopped putting up with him at least a decade ago, if not two. If Reagan had an eighth of the courage of conviction that's attributed to him by his apologists, he would have abolished the embargo and let Levi Strauss and Pepsi (somehow I think Castro wouldn't have let Coca-Cola in the country) conquer Cuba for him.
posted by lodurr at 5:45 AM on December 11, 2006
Funny how that works -- when what's obvious and clear doesn't seem fair.
So then it's safe to say that due to American support and investment, Chile is what it is today, and it was American support that led Pinochet to resign and return Chile to democracy?
It was, in fact, American pressure that led Pinochet to hold a plebiscite that required him to leave office, yes. Though he didn't exactly resign willingly.
And someone should point out, explicitly and clearly, that it's the external pressure from US sanctions that's propped Castro up for all these years, even more than Soviet aid -- especially since the collapse of the Soviet Union. Without a US bogeyman, and with unhindered trade, Cubans would have stopped putting up with him at least a decade ago, if not two. If Reagan had an eighth of the courage of conviction that's attributed to him by his apologists, he would have abolished the embargo and let Levi Strauss and Pepsi (somehow I think Castro wouldn't have let Coca-Cola in the country) conquer Cuba for him.
posted by lodurr at 5:45 AM on December 11, 2006
How about we leave the ever incendiary subject of Cuba and Castro for another time and focus on Pinochet?
due to American support and investment, Chile is what it is today
I'll assume by saying "what it is today" you mean that "booming economy that serves as a model for the rest of Latin America" and all that.
Well, I don't really buy into that. Often, the people who hold that position quite reports of, say, the IDB. If we are to listen to those reports, Mexico is in constant growth and everything is rosy there. Yet the number of people migrating to the US continues to grow, the gap between the rich and the poor continues to widen, the violence from drug trafficking continues to get worse, the cost of living continues to stretch towards European levels while the level of income continues to sink.
The same thing could be said about Chile. Again, you can't judge reality and the everyday life of a person in a country from those reports and statistics. Yes, Chile is a free market economy with impressive macroeconomic figures, but Chile isn't Ireland, experiencing a boom after a time of hardship. The poor in Chile continue to be there, it's just that they've gotten better at hiding them. The lack of access to education is a huge problem. The social differences in Chile are as saddening, bad and worrisome as anywhere else in Latin America, but they excel at covering them so that they are not easily seen.
So, has "American support and investment taken Chile to be what it is today?"
Yes, and that is not something to brag about.
posted by micayetoca at 6:13 AM on December 11, 2006
due to American support and investment, Chile is what it is today
I'll assume by saying "what it is today" you mean that "booming economy that serves as a model for the rest of Latin America" and all that.
Well, I don't really buy into that. Often, the people who hold that position quite reports of, say, the IDB. If we are to listen to those reports, Mexico is in constant growth and everything is rosy there. Yet the number of people migrating to the US continues to grow, the gap between the rich and the poor continues to widen, the violence from drug trafficking continues to get worse, the cost of living continues to stretch towards European levels while the level of income continues to sink.
The same thing could be said about Chile. Again, you can't judge reality and the everyday life of a person in a country from those reports and statistics. Yes, Chile is a free market economy with impressive macroeconomic figures, but Chile isn't Ireland, experiencing a boom after a time of hardship. The poor in Chile continue to be there, it's just that they've gotten better at hiding them. The lack of access to education is a huge problem. The social differences in Chile are as saddening, bad and worrisome as anywhere else in Latin America, but they excel at covering them so that they are not easily seen.
So, has "American support and investment taken Chile to be what it is today?"
Yes, and that is not something to brag about.
posted by micayetoca at 6:13 AM on December 11, 2006
"quite reports of"
should say
"quote reports of"
Sorry about that.
posted by micayetoca at 6:15 AM on December 11, 2006
should say
"quote reports of"
Sorry about that.
posted by micayetoca at 6:15 AM on December 11, 2006
loquax:
So then it's safe to say that due to American support and investment, Chile is what it is today, and it was American support that led Pinochet to resign and return Chile to democracy?
No, it was our hard work and political responsibility (we actually vote in elections), along with the investments from the US, Europe, Asia, etc., as well as our liberal approach to tarifs, and our trade agreements with many, many countries (which we actually honor), our relative lack of corruption, etc.
It was actually the withdrawal of US support for Pinochet which led to his downfall.
posted by signal at 6:26 AM on December 11, 2006
So then it's safe to say that due to American support and investment, Chile is what it is today, and it was American support that led Pinochet to resign and return Chile to democracy?
No, it was our hard work and political responsibility (we actually vote in elections), along with the investments from the US, Europe, Asia, etc., as well as our liberal approach to tarifs, and our trade agreements with many, many countries (which we actually honor), our relative lack of corruption, etc.
It was actually the withdrawal of US support for Pinochet which led to his downfall.
posted by signal at 6:26 AM on December 11, 2006
How about we leave the ever incendiary subject of Cuba and Castro for another time and focus on Pinochet?
Gladly.
Gotta love that bit about chaining people to concrete blocks and shoving them out of helicopters over the ocean. The beauty part is that it was such an elaborated means of execution. It kind of gives lie to the idea that they were doing something that was necessary for the country. At that point, it's clearly more or less all about sadism.
If you're part of the crews who made those flights, how do you live with it? I seem to recall some of them couldn't keep silent and came clean.
posted by lodurr at 7:17 AM on December 11, 2006
Gladly.
Gotta love that bit about chaining people to concrete blocks and shoving them out of helicopters over the ocean. The beauty part is that it was such an elaborated means of execution. It kind of gives lie to the idea that they were doing something that was necessary for the country. At that point, it's clearly more or less all about sadism.
If you're part of the crews who made those flights, how do you live with it? I seem to recall some of them couldn't keep silent and came clean.
posted by lodurr at 7:17 AM on December 11, 2006
Death of a Dictator: Victims of Augusto Pinochet's Reign Remember Brutal Regime From the Caravan of Death to Operation Condor
posted by homunculus at 12:58 PM on December 11, 2006
posted by homunculus at 12:58 PM on December 11, 2006
a press release: ...In honor of the departure of the former Chilean President, Dr. Kissinger shall be dry humping the casket on behalf of the American people via the direction of President Cheney...
posted by amberglow at 7:20 PM on December 11, 2006
posted by amberglow at 7:20 PM on December 11, 2006
How about we leave the ever incendiary subject of Cuba and Castro for another time and focus on Pinochet?
Oddly, I probably can't, even though I did in my post above: my early-life exposure to Latin American cultures (by no means limited to Chile) culminated with my marriage to a daughter of Cubans who fled the revolution. I find such joy in my relationship with my in-laws; but I must never discuss politics with them, for I take no joy at all in our variances of opinion.
posted by mwhybark at 7:21 PM on December 11, 2006
Oddly, I probably can't, even though I did in my post above: my early-life exposure to Latin American cultures (by no means limited to Chile) culminated with my marriage to a daughter of Cubans who fled the revolution. I find such joy in my relationship with my in-laws; but I must never discuss politics with them, for I take no joy at all in our variances of opinion.
posted by mwhybark at 7:21 PM on December 11, 2006
Washington Post editorial: What's a few thousand people murdered for their political beliefs in exchange for some economic growth?
posted by amberglow at 3:05 PM on December 12, 2006
more about it: Seriously, a love letter to Augusto Pinochet and Jeanne Kirkpatrick on The Washington Post editorial page?
posted by amberglow at 3:09 PM on December 12, 2006
posted by amberglow at 3:09 PM on December 12, 2006
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posted by anthill at 10:08 AM on December 10, 2006