Awesometastic!

December 15, 2006 6:54 AM

Attraction is not a choice as the saying goes in the PUA community, and their main discussion forum provides plenty of instruction on meeting and seducing women. Stop asking the questions of an AFC and step into a whole different level of male/female interactions. Instead of pickup lines and techniques, start reading the field reports posted by new and veteran PUAs. (via)
posted by Tasty Like Your 9V Battery (206 comments total)

Some pickup artists in the community write up "Field Reports" ("FRs") and "Lay Reports" ("LRs") detailing their experiences with women which they share on Internet forums for constructive criticism, or to serve as examples for others.[16]. Others, notably Mystery[17] and Stevie PUA[18] have released 'sarge' audio of themselves 'sarging' in the field as a model to others. Some audio has included 'full closes' (i.e. sex).

Ladies, watch out. Love is coming for you!
posted by Tasty Like Your 9V Battery at 6:54 AM on December 15, 2006

I read The Game and am floored that any of that can work. I especially liked the scene at the PUA seminar where two of the guys are talking to the girl at once, one fast talking, one with "suggestions", to the point where the girl was overcome and passed out.
posted by dr_dank at 7:02 AM on December 15, 2006

PUA community,

Skirt chasers are a damned 'community,' now? Sweet lord almighty. Somewhere in America there must be a factory that keeps manufacturing new and exciting flavors of bullshit.
posted by jonmc at 7:02 AM on December 15, 2006 [2 favorites]

Syd: I made a schedule on my computer.
Dex: How Marcia Brady of you!
posted by hal9k at 7:03 AM on December 15, 2006

Also, there is no 'technique' to picking up women for random encounters. Everytime it's happened to me, it's had everything to do with whatever internal drama the woman is going through at the time and very little to do with me. I just happened to be there. In many cases I could've been replaced by a dildo duct-taped to a two-by-four.

So the secret to getting laid is just be there a lot and something will eventually happen.
posted by jonmc at 7:05 AM on December 15, 2006 [1 favorite]

I guess it's a hobby like any other for these guys. A little sociopathic, though.
posted by delmoi at 7:05 AM on December 15, 2006

Picking Up Girls Made Easy - The Women's Clothing Store Pick-Up

Narrated by the author, Eric Weber, this album was released in the mid-70's. Pure cheese and amazing that these pick-ups could actually work (well maybe on girls who are not playing with a full deck of cards). What's even more amazing is that this is still in print (no longer on LP, but on cassette!).
- Otis Fodder

TT-6:39 / 6.09MB / 128kbps 44.1khz
from the LP, "Picking Up Girls Made Easy"

Find the awesometastic audio file here courtesy of the 365 Days Project archived at U B U W E B.
posted by beelzbubba at 7:07 AM on December 15, 2006

This goes far beyond the level of skirt-chasing. What really struck me about The Game was how none of the really devoted pick-up artists (even the author, despite claims otherwise) actually did it for sex. The author seems to indicate that this obsessive level of dedication to "seduction" usually stems from either hideous self-esteem issues or a compulsive need to manipulate people.
posted by Ndwright at 7:09 AM on December 15, 2006

I'm glad Ndwright brought up the word "obsession."
posted by muddgirl at 7:11 AM on December 15, 2006

Also, there is no 'technique' to picking up women for random encounters. Everytime it's happened to me, it's had everything to do with whatever internal drama the woman is going through at the time and very little to do with me. I just happened to be there.

jonmc explains the technique known as "getting lucky."

it is better to be lucky than good.
posted by three blind mice at 7:20 AM on December 15, 2006 [1 favorite]

So the secret to getting laid is just be there a lot and something will eventually happen.

I would wager there are people that are there a lot to whom nothing happens, which is why they would resort to such things.
posted by splice at 7:22 AM on December 15, 2006

I would wager there are people that are there a lot to whom nothing happens,

Eh, no matter how unattractive you might be, somebody will eventually throw you a bone.

jonmc explains the technique known as "getting lucky."

that's all any guy ever is when it comes to this stuff. women aren't like guys, they don't walk into a bar, look at some dude and say 'I must have that.' Women can have sex whenever they want, so if they go out looking for it, they're usuaully working out some other shit with it. (Mind you, I'm talking about random casual sex here, not relationships. two very different things).
posted by jonmc at 7:26 AM on December 15, 2006

La
posted by caddis at 7:30 AM on December 15, 2006

Ndwright:The author seems to indicate that this obsessive level of dedication to "seduction" usually stems from either hideous self-esteem issues or a compulsive need to manipulate people.

Thats what jumped out at me reading the book. Instead of going the conventional route (something that they call the hallmark of the AFC - Average Frustrated Chump), they get into the psychology/sociology of the situations and hack them to their advantage.

By the end of the book, you realize that there is no end game or exit plan on most of their parts. There is only the game. Friends fade away, rivalries amongst pickup styles form, and all these guys do is run the treadmill of "sarging". Within months of PUA group depicted The Game renting the house in Hollywood, all of the girls they ran into knew all of their tricks that they and their army of PUA clones were using.
posted by dr_dank at 7:31 AM on December 15, 2006

I love how guys like Mystery and Neil Strauss are making tons of money convincing people that they have some special "technique" or "method." More power to 'em! Let them rake it in.

If you read The Game, you'll quickly realize that there is no technique. There is no method. If there is any hypnosis going on at all, it's self-hypnosis, where the self-styled "PUA" tricks themselves into feeling strong and confident in a situation that most men find uncomfortable and awkward.

The hardest part really is just going up to her and talking to her in the first place. Bonus points if you can manage to not totally trip over your tongue or be completely distracted by her Rack.

Ok, now give me a million dollars.
posted by Afroblanco at 7:32 AM on December 15, 2006

will you take a check?
posted by jonmc at 7:32 AM on December 15, 2006

Caddis, it was for the eponystericalism. Is that so naughty?
posted by Tasty Like Your 9V Battery at 7:38 AM on December 15, 2006

women aren't like guys, they don't walk into a bar, look at some dude and say 'I must have that.'


Um, sometimes we do. We just don't have a cool slangy vocab like these bozos.

Eventually I got tired of just making out, decided I wasn't gonna be bothered dealing with it that night, and sent her home so I could play Civ4 till 2am. - From one of the "lay reports."

I weep for the next generation.
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:45 AM on December 15, 2006

Um, sometimes we do. We just don't have a cool slangy vocab like these bozos.

Agreed, but my point is this. Women know when they're going to get laid, since if a woman makes it known she's available, it's gonna happen. Guys know that they're going to try to get laid. Which means this whole silly scorpion dance has less to do with them and much more to so with the women involved and whatever drama they're playing out. So, the pick-up artists are basically just deluding themselves that they have any control over the situation at all. Women have the upper hand in these transactions, always have, always will.
posted by jonmc at 7:49 AM on December 15, 2006

Eventually I got tired of just making out, decided I wasn't gonna be bothered dealing with it that night, and sent her home so I could play Civ4 till 2am.

Translation: she didn't put out, but I got to first base, really and truly I did!
posted by PeterMcDermott at 7:54 AM on December 15, 2006

I think this issue is far from decided, with probably 90% of the success of any of these "techniques" being enhanced confidence on the part of the guy, and being desensitized to outright rejection.

For instance, I think you could run a workshop where you taught guys to do nothing but recite the first paragraph of the Gettysburg Address to random women as an "opener", and that guy would probably become more successful with women after getting over shyness and awkwardness of the "approach".

But, in this melange somewhere, is the fact that almost all women will say "it doesn't work like that", however many, many women when honest will say there is a guy out there in their past that they have no idea why they hooked up with them. They were just in a mood, and this guy was in the right place at the right time.

This is what jonmc is getting at, but it is not unreasonable to think this process can be steered somewhat.

So, it's a combination of improved confidence, greatly improved number of potential targets (i.e. talking to 15 girls a night instead of 1 and giving up), growing adept at identifying girls that it will "work on", and getting lucky.

Alternatively, this could just be a process for not screwing up the getting lucky. I figure, in the aggregate, many more sexual experiences are "lost" by guys rather than "gained". In other words, they drop the ball much more than they hit home runs.

(on preview: agree with jonmc 100%. Girls do not have to wonder "if" they can get laid on a particular night. If they are feeling frisky, their only job is to go out and turn on the batsignal, and choose from an entire roomful of suitors.)
posted by Ynoxas at 7:55 AM on December 15, 2006

For some quick reinforcement to jonmc's point, click the "via" and read the accompanying AskMeFi thread. In nearly every single case of a bona fide pickup-line-gone-good, the "target" was male.
posted by Partial Law at 7:57 AM on December 15, 2006

Can I come live in your world, Jon?
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:57 AM on December 15, 2006

This is what jonmc is getting at, but it is not unreasonable to think this process can be steered somewhat.

Well, just don't do anything stupid or crass and you're usually fine. (Although, one time I was in a bar, and I had overindulged a bit, and some beer went down the wrong tube and I puked all over the foot of the bar. As I finished, I looked up and at that exact moment two pretty girls had materialized right next to me. They looked vaguely repelled. I grinned widely and said "Hellllooo, ladies..." They skedaddled. I ordered another beer)
posted by jonmc at 7:59 AM on December 15, 2006 [2 favorites]

that's all any guy ever is when it comes to this stuff. women aren't like guys, they don't walk into a bar, look at some dude and say 'I must have that.'

C'mon man, some bars are thick with files male and female. Having some social skills to enable you to strike up a conversation just makes it more likely you'll connect. The game doesn't seem more complicated - or more satisfying - than that.
posted by three blind mice at 8:00 AM on December 15, 2006

jonmc: "So, the pick-up artists are basically just deluding themselves that they have any control over the situation at all. Women have the upper hand in these transactions, always have, always will."

While that's definitely true, there are unarguably things that men can do that can maximize their opportunities. Not hard things, but stuff like not being a jerk, not being obnoxious, not being a slob or a crashing bore, etc. etc.

Some of the guys who featured in The Game definitely seemed to struggle with these basic principles, and were triumphant when they felt they were finally overcoming them. Though they rarely seemed to overcome all of them, and often had to settle for concealing them for as long as possible.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:00 AM on December 15, 2006

thick with files flies

that's right: thick with flies.
posted by three blind mice at 8:01 AM on December 15, 2006

Can I come live in your world, Jon?

Well, let me check with my wife. Plus, I haven't cleaned in a while.

CL, I'm not saying that women have more power in the world at large, just in the erotic arena.
posted by jonmc at 8:01 AM on December 15, 2006

I haven't checked out the links yet because I'm sure I've seen them already. A few months ago a friend of mine came to me with a copy of the game and after 90 days of reading books and watching videos from Mystery, David Deangelo, Carlos Xuma, Ross Jefferies and Robert Greene et al (not to mention various NLP texts) I can tell you that there is something more to it than just going out and trying to score. To me it it's more about being an alpha male every day in life, not being content to sit back and watch life pass you buy so that you wind up laying on your deathbed and thinking "why didn't I ever do that?" I'm sure that a number of social rejects are drawn to this speed seduction with the hope of quick scores but for me it has been all about operating on a higher level of social interaction.

I don't think any of the things I have read from the main players have been derogatory toward women or unhealthy or sick. I won't speak for the various misanthropes on the forums but I think a lot of the stuff I have looked at has been great for me.

Ross Jefferies bastardazation of NLP actually has some really interesting methods to clearing out the fear and nervousness that a lot of men have when they think about approaching a really attractive woman. Deangelo's scientific approach to attraction really does serve to explain a lot of human courtship. And lets face it, the cocky funny thing really does work. These master PUAs are just helping to reinforce this to a lot of men who neither knew or were unable to act in this way. It really is fascinating watching Jefferies taking a bunch of nervous 30 year olds and transforming them in a few minutes with a simple ritual.

I'm sure most people looking at this think it's disgusting and manipulative and crass and sorry and so forth but for me it's something else. Once you get past the jargon and the pickup lines (which any PUA will tell you is the least important part of the whole) you actually have some pretty powerful transformative self help techniques. For some its the difference between staying at home on a Friday night playing Xbox and going out the bar and talking to a few chicks. For others it's about seeing that hot chick in the supermarket, saying hi and getting a coffee date. For me it started out being about meeting 20 chicks over the course of a 2 week span and then inviting them all over to my house at once for happy hour and seeing which one stuck. I haven't really watched or listened to anything recently but the confidence has stuck with me.

(on preview: yes it is mainly a numbers game and a bunch of self hypnosis. It is also true that there is no method other than the game itself. It is also highly effective after you have been into it for a few weeks. No complaints here. )
posted by daHIFI at 8:04 AM on December 15, 2006

As an observation, it's interesting how quasi-militaristic these communities are: the over-emphasis on acronyms, "sarging", "wingman", the competitive perspective on "conquering" your mission, "destroying" any males in the process.
posted by Bora Horza Gobuchul at 8:06 AM on December 15, 2006

i'm glad someone else caught that comment -- following those links totally derailed my morning. and not in a good way.
posted by sonofslim at 8:10 AM on December 15, 2006

Also, I've found that girls are way more subtle than we are, so if you have a feeling that she is into you, more than likely in her eyes she is throwing herself at you.

That site is chock full of great tips.
posted by craniac at 8:10 AM on December 15, 2006

Sweet Jesus, it's everywhere. I've been in and out of the "seduction community" since 1999. I've had some moderate success but it should be noted that I'm not a fan of canned routines and Ross Jeffries as always struck me as being, well, a creep.

Some of the advice you'll get from the community is very good. Some of it, not so good.

Since The Game came out, the community has exploded. I remember when my local "Lair" was just 10-12 guys. Now it's more like 100, and you have to be active or you get kicked out. You cannot go to any bar in this town without seeing someone from the Lair or at the very least overhearing someone run material. There is not a single social group for singles in the entire city that doesn't have at least a few lair members in it.

It's everywhere. It's mainstream now. It's going to be even more mainstream after the movie comes out.

I have to admit I miss the days when it was still underground and there were maybe 20 people inside the Beltway that knew anything about it.
posted by smoothvirus at 8:11 AM on December 15, 2006

it is better to be lucky than good.

I've seen the lucky, and the good get "lucky" far more often (and less randomly when it comes to who with).

ah, daHIFI, I was wondering when someone would mention NLP. That's the attempt at least. I can't believe anyone would read The Game and come to the conclusion that these guys are just trying to boost their confidence. I just read a couple of excerpts and it was clear that they were at least aiming for hardcore manipulation, down to fine detail ("Ask her her name but don't answer with yours" is the only specific one I recall -- I wasn't impressed).

It all rang quite familiar as I used to have a girlfriend who did this with her best friend -- run down entire conversations and gestures to produce desired effects. And it worked. Brilliantly. Maybe with these guys, not so much. But they're definitely trying for more than just confidence.
posted by dreamsign at 8:13 AM on December 15, 2006

so if you have a feeling that she is into you,

'you' is the tricky word here. in the whole one-night-stand thing, it has very little to do with the specific individuals involved. She's merely looking to get laid by somebody. The guys job is to merely 1)not blow it by being repulsive or stupid and 2)not blow it by missing her signals.
posted by jonmc at 8:14 AM on December 15, 2006

Women know when they're going to get laid, since if a woman makes it known she's available, it's gonna happen

This is definitely not true.
posted by dead_ at 8:20 AM on December 15, 2006

got anything to back that up, sir?
posted by jonmc at 8:21 AM on December 15, 2006

jonmc... it's not all about one night stands. In fact I'd say that the majority of guys who are into this stuff are late bloomers that were seeking to improve their dating skills. Two friends of mine who were in the community married women they met using the skills they learned.
posted by smoothvirus at 8:23 AM on December 15, 2006

smoothvirus: "Sweet Jesus, it's everywhere. I've been in and out of the "seduction community" since 1999. I've had some moderate success but it should be noted that I'm not a fan of canned routines and Ross Jeffries as always struck me as being, well, a creep.
"

Many years ago, I came across Lewis DePayne on some newsgroup or other, and he was trying to help Jeffries get some sort of net presence, so he sent me Jeffries material for free. It just struck me as being material for losers who can't get laid. That must have been around about 1994 or so?

I might have responded differently had I been fourteen or fifteen though.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:26 AM on December 15, 2006

Ah, so Fleetwood Mac was right. (But not on all matters - as a point of fact, thunder doesn't happen only when it's raining.)
posted by billysumday at 8:26 AM on December 15, 2006

Sorry, losers is too perjorative. Smoothvirus's term 'late bloomers' is a much kinder way of putting it. However, the fact that Jeffries was trying to make some sort of business out of this seemed extremely sleazy to me -- taking advantage of the social anxieties of these 'late bloomers' if you will.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:30 AM on December 15, 2006

Metafilter: You could've been replaced by a dildo duct-taped to a two-by-four.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 8:32 AM on December 15, 2006

Sorry, losers is too perjorative.

No, I like the word losers. Beck empowered that word. It's ok, I'm taking it back.
posted by jonmc at 8:32 AM on December 15, 2006

Ross is definately creepy. Much of the material he promotes is manipulative and narcissistic. A lot of the fundamentals that Ross teaches are quite true, however.

That's why David DeAngelo has become so popular, it's Speed Seduction with all the creepiness and manipulation stripped out of it.
posted by smoothvirus at 8:34 AM on December 15, 2006

In fact I'd say that the majority of guys who are into this stuff are late bloomers that were seeking to improve their dating skills. Two friends of mine who were in the community married women they met using the skills they learned.

Damn, this must be why I always see complete "nerds" going out with hot chicks. In Austin, it's like an epidemic.

(I'm only 75% sarcastic)
posted by muddgirl at 8:34 AM on December 15, 2006

daHIFI said: I can tell you that there is something more to it than just going out and trying to score. To me it it's more about being an alpha male every day in life, not being content to sit back and watch life pass you buy so that you wind up laying on your deathbed and thinking "why didn't I ever do that?"

If laying a bunch of women is what it takes to make you happy about your life on your deathbed, then your priorities were pretty questionable.

With a decent shot of self-respect, you don't have to worry about your deathbed at all. If you are worried about your feelings upon it, then the solution to the problem is inside you.

Not out there somewhere in the laps of women or bungee-jumping or whatever else you think you need to do to assert your alpha maleness.

And PS - if you have to try that hard to be an alpha, you probably aren't one and should accept that fact rather than trying to be something you're not.
posted by InnocentBystander at 8:36 AM on December 15, 2006 [1 favorite]

'A good player is always lucky.'
-Jose Raul Capablanca
posted by MtDewd at 8:42 AM on December 15, 2006

CL, I'm not saying that women have more power in the world at large, just in the erotic arena.

One season's pass to the erotic arena please!
posted by Merlyn at 8:43 AM on December 15, 2006

Merlyn, I've said it before: no matter how unattractive a woman might think she is, there is some poor slob out there is who is madly pining away for her. Not so for men. Except for a select few exceptionally good-looking or charming guys, it's an 'A for effort"/sheer luck equation for guys. This gives women the upper hand. Once they know that, the world is their oyster.
posted by jonmc at 8:46 AM on December 15, 2006

I've just been glancing at the Field Reports, and these guys really just don't seem to grasp the idea that you can talk to women. A woman on a date will do or say something, and rather than ask her why she did or said it, they'll go back to their community and invite them to try and interpret it.

Why can't they just ask her what's going on in the first place? And why would anyone take the advice of this group of 'late bloomers' on such matters?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:48 AM on December 15, 2006

jon: just saying that I, and many men I know, have been in plenty of situations where a woman has made herself available and has been rejected.
posted by dead_ at 8:49 AM on December 15, 2006

Many years ago, I came across Lewis DePayne on some newsgroup or other, and he was trying to help Jeffries get some sort of net presence,

alt.seduction.fast ... that was the home of a certain odious who used to crosspost to alt.flame

i had to cure him of that, of course ...
posted by pyramid termite at 8:49 AM on December 15, 2006

Sorry, losers is too perjorative. Smoothvirus's term 'late bloomers' is a much kinder way of putting it.

In western culture, we are socially conditioned to view males who are unsuccessful sexually as "losers" who don't succeed with women because, well, they don't deserve to.

For some reason we're supposed to look down our noses and scoff at any man who would dare to challenge the common notion of "either you have it, or you don't."

There are thousands of men out there (and I know I'm speaking for myself as well here) who were geeky and awkward as teenagers, who managed to succeed academically and professionally, but watched all the jocks get all the girls. After college they're out in the real world, suddenly finding that they're 10-15 years behind the power curve in their dating and social skills. While everyone else was out partying and necking with girls at age 15, we were home, programming our computers. So when we were out there in the dating world, we had to find some way of catching up.

"Either you have it or you dont" is a lie. Dating and flirting are skills that can be learned, despite what television and movies try to tell you.
posted by smoothvirus at 8:50 AM on December 15, 2006

This idea that women have men wrapped around their fingers and can get all the dates and sex they want is totally untrue. When saggy 40 year old guys talk about women having it so easy, they're thinking about firmbodied 18-25 year olds (as if they ever think of anything else).

But what about the saggy 40 year old women? What about the single mothers? What about the fatties? The post-menopausal? The very old? The flat-out ugly? The terminally shy? The disabled? The girls who've suffered at the hands of men and want one but can't bring themselves to trust one? What about the 3 billion women elsewhere in the world who you immediately rule out because you think marrying abroad is for losers who "can't get a proper woman"?

The lonely guy puts women up on such a pedestal that it becomes impossible for him to imagine there are imperfect women out there who would be quite happy to accept his imperfect self.

For every single, balding, middle aged man who sneers at women for rejecting him, there are a multitude of women who he has rejected without even thinking about it. You think 60 year old women don't want love? Is your 40 year old self turned off by the thought of dating a 60 year old woman? Then why do you expect 20 year old babes to be all over you?

If you're sad and lonely, quit watching porn and go and meet some real women. You'll find they're just like you.
posted by hoverboards don't work on water at 8:52 AM on December 15, 2006 [19 favorites]

Damn, this must be why I always see complete "nerds" going out with hot chicks.

(being 100% sarcastic) Nerds shouldn't be allowed to date women. They're supposed to die lonely and alone. The television told me this, so it must be true.
posted by smoothvirus at 8:53 AM on December 15, 2006

Not so for men.

OK jon, I'll call bullshit on that. There's a girl pining for every guy, too. There was a saying among my friends: "Shy women like shy men. Shy men like forward women. Forward women like forward men." This approach just teaches men to be forward men.
posted by muddgirl at 8:53 AM on December 15, 2006

Merlyn: "One season's pass to the erotic arena please!"

Can you pass the age and weight tests, Merlyn?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 8:53 AM on December 15, 2006

That's what I was trying to say.
posted by dead_ at 8:54 AM on December 15, 2006

What hoverboards said, that is.
posted by dead_ at 8:54 AM on December 15, 2006

(thanks hoverboards)

smoothvirus - no, but it's just strange that I rarely see a "nerd" girl with a jock, to be stereotypical about it.
posted by muddgirl at 8:55 AM on December 15, 2006

jon: just saying that I, and many men I know, have been in plenty of situations where a woman has made herself available and has been rejected.

Then you either are

a) so attractive that it happens to you all the time, so you're bored with it, and this is the internet, so I'll rule that out

b)in a relationship and remaining faithful

c) she was unattractive to the point of deformity

cause it's been my experience that single guys will generally sleep with anything that says yes.
posted by jonmc at 8:55 AM on December 15, 2006

OK jon, I'll call bullshit on that. There's a girl pining for every guy, too.

I don't buy that. Not for one minute. Nobody ever went to bed at night saying "I wonder if jonmc likes me?" and the same is true of most guys. Dosen't mean we can't get laid or fall in love or have people fall in love with us, just makes it a different playing field.
posted by jonmc at 8:57 AM on December 15, 2006

Well, I guess every decision I make doesn't center around my dick?
posted by dead_ at 8:58 AM on December 15, 2006

cause it's been my experience that single guys will generally sleep with anything that says yes.

this is one of those statements that says more about you than it says about other people
posted by pyramid termite at 8:59 AM on December 15, 2006 [1 favorite]

dead_: "What hoverboards said, that is."

Actually, I was also trying to say the same thing in my comment to Merlyn, but in a much more elliptical and less articulate fashion.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 9:00 AM on December 15, 2006

Exactly.
posted by dead_ at 9:00 AM on December 15, 2006

Sociopathic Dorks Full of Themselves, Film at 11.
posted by tehloki at 9:01 AM on December 15, 2006

Am I the only one creeped out by someone calling himself "smoothvirus" bragging about his pickup success? Yikes.

And Jon, obviously if a woman wants to get laid she generally can, but earlier you suggested any woman could have any man she wanted, hence my desire to immediatelt decamp for Jonland. No more getting brushed off by the hot dude and ending up sodden and mortified - hurrah!
posted by CunningLinguist at 9:02 AM on December 15, 2006

pyramid termite

Not necessarily... I think the views of Hoverboard and Jonmc can easily be reconciled.

Yes, men DO sleep with anything that says yes... they're just exceedingly careful about who they ask the question.
posted by InnocentBystander at 9:03 AM on December 15, 2006

Except for a select few exceptionally good-looking or charming guys, it's an 'A for effort"/sheer luck equation for guys.

jon, the line between opinion and fact doesn't exist for you, does it?

you talk about your experience like it is everyone's. it's not. i know because i know what mine is.

i read the game a couple years ago and i read a couple of books on NLP (which are a little bit on the creepy side, but whatever) and all they did was give me the confidence to approach people that i wouldn't have before and strike up a conversation (which has more applications in the business world, at conventions; i'm a whole lot less afraid to go to an event myself than i was before simply because i know how to gain rapport with people now). beautiful women have said on very regular basis that they hate having the creepy, awkward guy come up to them at the bar, but when a non alpha male comes up to them and isn't afraid of them because they're beautiful, it generally turns their head.

that's what this is. it's not a system of pickup lines and wearing the right things (although this is part of it to start). it's getting past that part of yourself that believes that meeting people is pure luck and that charm is innate. charm is learned and made possible with confidence.

my friends often remark on how i tend to date above my league, that my alpha male guy friends and i are usually aimed at the same girls at the bar. it's not because i've changed who i am (i'm still the skinny kid with the ragged beard) but i've changed how i can market myself to other people. i'm not awkward and afraid of a girl because she's beautiful.

and truth be told, above meeting girls in a bar, it makes me really excited at the possibility that the girl of my dreams won't walk by with me thinking i should've gone to talk to her. 'cause that's what it's about for most of us, in the end.
posted by dflemingdotorg at 9:04 AM on December 15, 2006

jon, the line between opinion and fact doesn't exist for you, does it?

dude, feel free to mentally preface everything I say with 'IMHO.' Of course, it's only my experience and observation, who else's could I have?
posted by jonmc at 9:08 AM on December 15, 2006

Again, jonmc, bullshit. She probably sat behind you in math class. She didn't have to wonder whether you liked her, because she "knew" you were out of her league.
posted by muddgirl at 9:08 AM on December 15, 2006 [1 favorite]

and truth be told, I never found 'the game' or 'the chase' all that much fun. It's a nerve-wracking freakshow, which is why I'm glad not to be a part of it.
posted by jonmc at 9:09 AM on December 15, 2006

Although, one time I was in a bar, and I had overindulged a bit, and some beer went down the wrong tube and I puked all over the foot of the bar.

Hmmm, Is this jonmc?
posted by Armitage Shanks at 9:10 AM on December 15, 2006

Again, jonmc, bullshit. She probably sat behind you in math class. She didn't have to wonder whether you liked her, because she "knew" you were out of her league.

I spent most of math class face down on the desk with drool leaving the corner of my mouth, and I was way out on the social periphery, so I wasn't in or out of any league. I wasn't even in the game back then.
posted by jonmc at 9:11 AM on December 15, 2006

jonmc: I'm trying to figure out of my dad travelled to NYC around the time you were born. You have to be my long lost brother. You might ask your dad if he was in Tennessee about 1969. My mom was probably vulnerable to "speed seduction".
posted by Ynoxas at 9:11 AM on December 15, 2006

go and meet some real women. You'll find they're just like you

Well that's the last thing anyone wants.
posted by dreamsign at 9:12 AM on December 15, 2006 [3 favorites]

wonders if jonmc likes him; frets; waits by phone.
posted by sonofslim at 9:15 AM on December 15, 2006

*calls up sonofslim, gives hime details about an exciting offer on long distance calling plans*
posted by jonmc at 9:17 AM on December 15, 2006

Dflemming, so you totally don't see the giant massive creepiness that is the field reports and taping? The utter disrespect that is behind the manipulation idealized there?
posted by Tasty Like Your 9V Battery at 9:22 AM on December 15, 2006

TLY9VB: as I said, the whole shuck is a delusion. It's the chicks who are doing the manipulating, up to and including listening to books and videos like this. They're trying to see how big of an asshole we're willing to make our ourselves in the name of getting laid.
posted by jonmc at 9:25 AM on December 15, 2006

This wikipedia excerpt cracked me up:

They believe that physical looks are less important to women in selection of a partner than they are to men, as evidence by top gurus who rated poorly with their looks on a Hot or Not style of website.

Heeee! The "top gurus" may not be getting laid quite as much as they claim, we'll never know for sure, but I guarantee that when I was on the prowl I always went for the best looking man at a party. (Note: "Best Looking" to me may not match up to your ideal. I hate overly processed, overly buff, overly confident men.)

It strikes me that this whole "game" complete with "wingmen" and "maneuvers" is all part of the competitive, can-do spirit where men get caught up in the process. This has been on my mind a lot lately because I have been fascinated by the product reviews on a huge sex toy website.

The men write in with various instructions for modifying (first I drilled a hole and inserted a PC pipe through the middle, then I filed down the ridges...) and usage (I warmed up with Giant Man, then I got out Fat Boy, then I used The Gigantor, then I ...) as well as recipes for success (I use a combination of crisco, boy-butter, and...) But what really gets me about this web site is the drive to accomplish greater and greater things ( I was only able to accommodate the first 7 inches after a month but I am sure that soon I hope to make those last 3 inches!) to the point of absurdity. I swear I feel like something has gone very, very awry with the sex drive of these particular men because they are driven to insert larger and larger objects into their rectums, to the point that they are complaining their bones are getting in the way.

Maybe it is the testosterone, but I just don't see women becoming as obsessed with "The Game" whether that is watching football or collecting stamps or inserting butt plugs .
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:25 AM on December 15, 2006 [1 favorite]

Wow, this is sad. A bunch of men sitting around talking about what women want. Could we be any more in denial?
posted by tehloki at 9:26 AM on December 15, 2006

(ladies, tehloki is trying to show you how sensitive he is with that comment. is it working?)
posted by jonmc at 9:27 AM on December 15, 2006

This is what I've never understood: Nerds yearning for cheerleaders.

She doesn't play wow, she can't balance her checkbook, she can't read a line of code, she doesn't know what clock speed is, she wants to go to parties not watch reruns of Season 1 of Pants of the Space Lord.

Why would you want to go out with her? Just to sleep with her a couple of times and realized you've broken your own heart?
posted by ewkpates at 9:27 AM on December 15, 2006 [1 favorite]

jon: I'm not trying to prove I'm sensitive. I'm trying to prove that we are doing something dumb, and we should stop it, because it is so inconceivably dumb, and I'm being dumb for even entering the discussion.

Fuck.
posted by tehloki at 9:29 AM on December 15, 2006

"Seduction community?"

This stuff is so weird and foreign to me. Was the Tom Cruise character in Magnolia based on this?

I feel like I have been "successful" at the dating game in my life. Between the ages of 16 and 38, I had several girlfriends, one-night-stands, flings, and relationships, and I am now happily married. I look back with fondness on the trial-and-error approach that worked well enough for me as an Average Frustrated Chump. It was often awkward at the time, sure, and I never felt like some kind of Seduction Expert. But I learned a lot about women in the process, and I don't think that I hurt more than my fair share of women's feelings. I really had no idea that there were Techniques and Manuals and Communities and all that. After reading through the Fast Seduction Forums I am glad that I am married now and out of this game. It doesn't look like it's much fun.
posted by Cookiebastard at 9:30 AM on December 15, 2006

Spot on dflemingdotorg, spot on. Smoothvirus is on point as well.
posted by daHIFI at 9:36 AM on December 15, 2006

do nothing but recite the first paragraph of the Gettysburg Address to random women

Totally true. "Baberaham" Lincoln got more tail than a spider monkey.

I weep for the next generation.

There isn't going to be a next generation if they're playing Civ 4 instead of getting laid.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:36 AM on December 15, 2006 [1 favorite]

So no one deals cocaine as a way to manipulate teh hot women anymore?

Given a choice between spontaneity, discovery and being genuine vs. technique and certainty of getting laid, I’d take the former. It’s been my experience that the women that are plugged into the latter aren’t worth the exercise. This is just an intellectual exercise for justifying lust, and either you run your dick or it runs you. Took me some time to grow up and realize that. And most women tend to have a serious advantage in social skills and pick up perception in the first place. Best way to win is not to play. Now if you’re seriously introverted or what have you there are things that might help boost your confidence and if that’s what you need, solid. But past that ultimately either you’re accepted for yourself or what you can do with technique. And who wants to be “on” 24/7?
posted by Smedleyman at 9:44 AM on December 15, 2006

Peter McDermott:Can you pass the age and weight tests, Merlyn?

Age and weight are secondary considerations in the arena!

jonmc:
[...]Once they know that, the world is their oyster.

not disagreeing with you, it was just that the I loved the the term "erotic arena".

and on preview I see the conversation is flying well beyond this... oh well.
posted by Merlyn at 9:44 AM on December 15, 2006

This is just an intellectual exercise for justifying lust

Lust needs no justification. It's built into the human body. Way more so in males than in females.
posted by jonmc at 9:45 AM on December 15, 2006

Comments like this, both by jon:

cause it's been my experience that single guys will generally sleep with anything that says yes.

and

It's the chicks who are doing the manipulating, up to and including listening to books and videos like this. They're trying to see how big of an asshole we're willing to make our ourselves in the name of getting laid.

are terribly sad and myopic. Not only that, there's a undercurrent of seething misogyny. And strange resentment.

You do not speak for all men, jon. And your purview of women is incredibly limited. You've apparently observed only the biggest losers on earth. Don't mistake anecdote for empirical rules. And don't phrase things this way if you don't want to get accused--over and over and over again, in endless threads--of doing so.
posted by veronica sawyer at 9:48 AM on December 15, 2006

You do not speak for all men, jon.

I never claimed to. And if you've been reading this site for any length of time you'd know that I occasionally use over-the-top (and self-deprecating) humor to make a point. And of course my purview is limited, that goes without saying. Is it possible to have an unlimeted purview? on anything?
posted by jonmc at 9:53 AM on December 15, 2006

This is what I've never understood: Nerds yearning for cheerleaders.

She doesn't play wow, she can't balance her checkbook, she can't read a line of code, she doesn't know what clock speed is, she wants to go to parties not watch reruns of Season 1 of Pants of the Space Lord.

Oh dude. This isn't about cheerleaders.
Your perfect, cute little nerd is going to run off with one of the jocks, mark my word. She might not stay with him, but you may as well consider her gone for the rest of grade 11.
posted by dreamsign at 10:00 AM on December 15, 2006

Smedleyman, I like the cut of your jib. Well said.
posted by Cookiebastard at 10:02 AM on December 15, 2006

I never claimed to. And if you've been reading this site for any length of time you'd know that I occasionally use over-the-top (and self-deprecating) humor to make a point. And of course my purview is limited, that goes without saying. Is it possible to have an unlimeted purview? on anything?

it's possible to talk about your purview without it sounding like you're speaking for everyone else.
posted by dflemingdotorg at 10:03 AM on December 15, 2006

dflemingdotorg: putting 'in my experience,' and 'to me,' around every obvious statement of opinion makes for very clunky prose, and I give the MeFi membership credit for enough intelligence to recognize an opinion (especially a hyperbolic one) when they see it.
posted by jonmc at 10:06 AM on December 15, 2006

How can so many of you be missing something so obvious? jon and others above are not talking about crushes and finding your dream boy, they are talking about scoring i.e. random one-night-stand sex.

Here, it's like this:

If a guy is horny and decides "Hey, I'm going to the bar and I'm going home with something tonight, as long as she's not a post-op tranny", there is *STILL* a significant chance that man is going home alone.

If a woman is horny and decides "Hey, I'm going to the bar and I'm going home with something tonight, as long as he's not a post-op tranny", there is PRACTICALLY ZERO CHANCE SHE WILL GO HOME ALONE.

How is this hard to understand? In a typical meat-market, there are tons of guys begging for anything, and a few women who get to pick the best of the litter, even if that litter is sorta sad and scary. They still get to pick.

Women get the bad end of the bargain in many, many facets of modern society. Love, dating, and sex is not one of them. In America, women are in control of the entire situation, from beginning to end. They control the supply, for which there is nearly unlimited demand. So please spare me the "It's just as hard for girls!" drivel. In the workplace, in academics, in sports, in most other things, okay, you have my attention.

In love/sex? Sorry. Girls win. Grand Champions 200,000 years running.

It's a lesson politicians learned a long time ago. You can see what works and what doesn't.

"Come on Saudi Arabia, you know I love you. You've always been the girl for me. You know Iraq doesn't mean anything to me, she's just the good-time girl, everyone's had a fling with her. Now come on and give me some of that sweet light crude. Ah yeah, that's it. That's the stuff."
posted by Ynoxas at 10:07 AM on December 15, 2006 [3 favorites]

Wow, this is sad. A bunch of men sitting around talking about what women want

All you have to do is ask, buddy, and I'll tell you what I want. But I can only speak for myself-- not all womankind.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:08 AM on December 15, 2006 [1 favorite]

*adds Ynoxas to the 'gets it' group*
posted by jonmc at 10:09 AM on December 15, 2006

Well, okay, not 200,000 years running, there was the whole knocking the girl over the head with a big bone and dragging her back to your cave thing. But you know what I mean.
posted by Ynoxas at 10:10 AM on December 15, 2006

In love/sex? Sorry. Girls win. Grand Champions 200,000 years running.

You obviously don't know your history.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:15 AM on December 15, 2006

Whatever they call themselves and however many cutesy little acronyms they invent, it's just guys looking to get laid and talking about it, a concept new as dirt.

What's different here and makes this post-worthy is the use of technology which pushes the creep factor up an extra notch or two and, one suspects, lays the groundwork for possible future embarassment for everyone concerned by permanently recording all this crapola.

In love/sex? Sorry. Girls win. Grand Champions 200,000 years running.

Agree if you limit your view to one-night-stands only and within the realm of civilized behavior (non-rape situations etc).

Disagree overall, women most certainly don't "win" any more than men do when it comes to finding actual love.
posted by scheptech at 10:19 AM on December 15, 2006

I've read The Game, but long before that I looked at old school (probably discredited now) books like Desmond Morris' The Naked Ape. Humans, like most mammals, have a courtship process. I'll freely admit that I'm not good at it, and, while I have yet to put any of the PUA community's advice into practice, I wouldn't discount it, either.

It's not just about that nebulous "confidence." Confidence, as far as I can tell, is that magical catch-all term people use when they want to avoid the hard, ugly truth that people (including women) are influenced by things like looks, money, social position, and so forth. "Dude, it's not that you're 5'2", drive a beater, and have a really bad case of acne ... you just don't have enough confidence."

Some folks just didn't come with the great package of social skills. The speed seduction community, while it has its fair share of creeps, features a way to take what's unconsciously easy for some men and make it into a conscious (although often stilted) process. The improv classes and the on-site practice just make it into something easier for the mind to deal with under high pressure situations.

It's like dancing classes for people who aren't great dancers. Some folks are born with it, but a lot have to work at it. Am I supposed to resent people who have to work at flirting well? I suppose you could consider it crass and deceitful, but so are foundation makeup and pushup bras. Let's talk about how weird and manipulative a few issues of Cosmo are.
posted by adipocere at 10:24 AM on December 15, 2006

Secret Life of Gravy: Ohmigawd! A real girl responded to my comment! *girly bend-one-leg-at-the-knee thing*
posted by tehloki at 10:26 AM on December 15, 2006

knocking the girl over the head with a big bone

Over the head?
posted by solid-one-love at 10:29 AM on December 15, 2006

I think that jonmc has raised some valid points. perhaps he's just speaking from his own experience. since he's married, it's clear that something worked.

otherwise, thanks for the link. It's rather amusing. Some of the stuff in here is pretty funny and sounds like it came from deleted scenes from "A Night at the Roxbury."
posted by drstein at 10:36 AM on December 15, 2006

(which has more applications in the business world, at conventions; i'm a whole lot less afraid to go to an event myself than i was before simply because i know how to gain rapport with people now).

So what's the secret? (seriously)
posted by Uther Bentrazor at 11:04 AM on December 15, 2006

Women get the bad end of the bargain in many, many facets of modern society. Love, dating, and sex is not one of them.

Oh good grief.

Your definition of "not getting the bad end of the bargain" in sex is the belief that women are assured of always finding something that will fuck them, as long as they are no more discriminating than insisting that the penis wasn't attached to it later in life.

Perhaps the real "bad end of the bargain" for (some) men is being deluded enought to think this constitutes an advantage in real life, as opposed to their adolescent fantasies.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 11:08 AM on December 15, 2006 [2 favorites]

Your definition of "not getting the bad end of the bargain" in sex is the belief that women are assured of always finding something that will fuck them, as long as they are no more discriminating than insisting that the penis wasn't attached to it later in life.

No, but the fact that women are far more likely to be sexually/romantically pursued than men, means they get to be the ultimate choicemakers, which is an advantage.
posted by jonmc at 11:13 AM on December 15, 2006

to the point that they are complaining their bones are getting in the way.

Whoa. Just whoa.
posted by Cyrano at 11:19 AM on December 15, 2006

solid-one-love: It's a southern expression. I sometimes forget not everyone is blessed with our varied tapestry of colloquialisms.

Life of Gravy: I'm obviously trying to be funny. You know, I've always liked your screename. I have been enjoying your posts for some time. I really like the way you handle your hyphens. So, you wanna get out of here and check out some of my etchings? (Hmm. It's not working.)

But at any rate, for as long as people have been writing about love and lust and desire, the women are the ones who are placed upon a pedestal and revered. How many quills have been dulled writing about the beauty of their beloved? How many songs, how many stories, how many poems, how many wars, how many Taj Mahal's, all over the love, and desire, of men for women.

Armitage: I don't know if you're drinking this morning or just missing the point on purpose. The fact that in modern America the woman has more power and influence over the dating experience than men is so well worn and so firmly planted I don't feel like trying to educate you and convince you the sky really is blue.

Unless, of course, you're just saying this to look sensitive, so that Gravy likes you. In that case, bravo my man, bravo.
posted by Ynoxas at 11:21 AM on December 15, 2006

You know, Richard Feynman wrote about the best piece of "one night stand" advice he ever recieved - never ever pay for anything for the girl. Don't buy her a drink, don't pay for her cab ride, nothing. He tells about trying this out, and the girl walking home with him, saying she was hungry and wanted a sandwich. He stopped at a sandwich shop, and bought 2. On the way out, I think the girl remembered some previous engagement or something, so he didn't give the sandwich to her. She ended up going home with him.

This is to say, I suppose, that in bar scenes men may be at "a disadvantage" due to supply and demand of willing one night stand partners, and must compete for women in what is frankly a rather odd display.

However, perhaps this is because it's easier for men to "wham bam thank you ma'am" than it is for women. A friend of mine, who was pretty heavy in the one night stand bar scene, says she eventually gave it up because it ultimately wasn't sexually satisfying for her. (since we're all obviously talking anecdotally).
posted by muddgirl at 11:32 AM on December 15, 2006

Unless, of course, you're just saying this to look sensitive, so that Gravy likes you.

Yes, that's my real motive, in the same way that your complaints about women are just cover for the fact that you're gay.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 11:36 AM on December 15, 2006

I also see what jonmc is saying, and agree (and don't get why he's somehow become seemingly the most inflamatory mefite, but whatever) however, the truth of what happens at bars between people looking for a one-night-stand is not, I think, the biggest issue here.

As far as I can see it, there are three possible reasons (and the intermixing of them) that a man could decide to involve himself in one of these freakshows of a community.

1. Sex. I call bullshit, if only because you can get the same gratification at home by yourself, and these tactics don't seem to lend themselves to forging a real connection to a woman. If it's to get some sexual experience, well, I'm sure that some of the guys are after just that, but they're misguided. From my experience, what works like gangbusters for one woman will turn off/possibly hurt for the next. So bad call.

2. Relationship. Again, bullshit, as the game runs counter to honesty and openness and spontenaity and everything else that would make any relationship worthwhile. Relationships are hard, and high risk. They take a lot of trouble and a lot of work and pain for a lot of good that you won't find anywehre else. Also, they don't come with a guidebook, which is probably why all these late-bloomers flock to the sort of community which would claim there is one, but all they're teaching is how to get laid. That's the easy part, and the most empty, in this context.

3. Conquest. There we go. The late-bloomers who would be attracted to this likely all share the same affliction - they didn't get the girl in high school, and they over-inflated the reputations of those who did. So now they'll suspend their adolescence indefinitely in order to catch up, and maybe THEN they'll have the confidence to do what they need to. Here are two points for the PUA community. First, even if you're right about how much ass the jocks got in high school (and you're not) let me clue you in on some other things that were cool back then. Smoking. Skating. Skipping class. Drugs. Keggers. Picking fights for no reason. Generally being an asshole. To pick womanizing and think that it empowers you is pathetic. Secondly, you'll never catch up, because if you're doing this, then you have a fucked-up view of the "competition" to begin with. The best you can hope for with this system is to eventually get into a long-term relationship started on lies and scripts, and then realize that sex doesn't make a marriage.

I've been a nerd my whole life. At 15, I was lucky enough to move away from the town where I was "untouchable" nerd to a place where I was "intriguing" nerd, and the only reason I couldn't do that beforehand was because I was stuck in the same school, unable to reinvent myself. These guys don't have that problem. By the end of high school, I was dating the cheerleader (who was also a nerd, but who broke my heart anyway - just a part of life) despite the fact that my only extra-curricular activity was drama club.

I'm not a good-looking guy, at least not conventionally. I seem to fall into the valley where a select few women pine for me for ages, while most others wouldn't want to look at me twice. Like Crispin Glover or Phillip Seymour Hoffman, I guess. Yet I've dated some absolutely beautiful, smart, funny, wonderful women in my time, and I met all of them through having a real group of friends, instead of a conclave of mysogynistic sociopaths.

The one thing that jonmc is truly wrong about is this - for every guy (or girl) there is somebody else pining for them. If you don't notice them, well, that was probably their fault, but don't think they weren't there. They were, but they were shy as well.

Women and men are alike in one significant way here. Both, when they meet somebody, either file them away into the "maybe" file, or don't really think about it. "Gotta have it" is just a priority in the maybe file. So just talk, be honest, smile, and have fun, and if you're not already in the maybe file, then maybe you'll get into it. That's what dating and chatting are about anyway. Seriously, the most attractive thing you can do is to have fun, because people of both sexes instinctively want to be where the fun is. And if you don't get laid, you won't care.

But if you really need that extra boost of confidence, and lord knows that we all do from time to time, try this trick that my friends and I used to do when we were in a dry spell. Go out with your buddies and have a contest of who can get rejected the most times in a night. Whoever gets shot down the most gets his drinks paid for him by the other guys. And if you lose (say, by being successful) then you still win. And there are no scripts, no sarging, and nothing else that anyone with an objective opinion would agree is simply pathetic and sad.
posted by Navelgazer at 11:36 AM on December 15, 2006 [1 favorite]

(and don't get why he's somehow become seemingly the most inflamatory mefite, but whatever)

/tangent

Because for a long time I was the generic 'nice guy' poster and for the most part it gained me either condescension or patronizing encouragement. I got tired of it and decided to just start saying what I thought. I stopped being a lovable retard and starting being an assertive human and that bugs some people.
posted by jonmc at 11:39 AM on December 15, 2006

let me clue you in on some other things that were cool back then. Smoking. Skating. Skipping class. Drugs. Keggers

when did these things stop being cool, exactly.
posted by jonmc at 11:41 AM on December 15, 2006 [1 favorite]

in the same way that your complaints about women are just cover for the fact that you're gay

Armitage: That's the worst pickup line I've ever heard. You should read one of the links above for some pointers. But you're cute. Try me again.
posted by Ynoxas at 11:42 AM on December 15, 2006

But you're cute. Try me again.

Gosh, look at that. Your "control the supply" problem is solved already.
posted by Armitage Shanks at 11:52 AM on December 15, 2006

Well, that feeds into my theory that gay guys are the smartest dudes on the planet. They know that with two male libidos colliding sex is absurdly easy to obtain. I've been come onto by men far more often than I've been come onto by women, and this has to do with different sex drives and different attitudes.
posted by jonmc at 11:55 AM on December 15, 2006

The times I have gotten "lucky" or whatever. . .afterwards, I always wondered what the big deal was about. So I got laid. . .why was I so adamant about it going in (no pun) and where is the immense sense of accomplishment and gratification that should rightfully be mine, now? Why are random people on the street not genuflecting to me, the morning after I have had near-anonymous sex with a stranger?

It's just way overrated and guys do themselves such an injustice by accepting the "loser" moniker for not being good at this game. But that is not likely to change and it merely needs to be grown out of, if one is lucky enough.

I think that this is that jonmc is saying also.
posted by Danf at 12:08 PM on December 15, 2006

power and influence over the dating experience

Er - are we talking about dating, sex, or the "experience" of one or the other? Men obviously have a whole lot of influence over the experience.

However, perhaps this is because it's easier for men to "wham bam thank you ma'am" than it is for women.

Yes. Men, for their part, have an advantage in that they're more generally capable of separating sexual gratification from emotion or dating or relationship or any other sort of meaning at all. Guys just don't care, or at least don't have to. This is precicely why men are so readily available and where the perception of womens' power over the process comes from.
posted by scheptech at 12:09 PM on December 15, 2006

I must agree with some of the things that have been said here; women have so much power when it comes to sex. We have the upper hand for sure when it comes to dating, no question. Still, it creeps me out a little bit, the ideas that are put into this whole game. Men should realize that there is generally, someone out there that will 'get them.' Not every girl goes for an alpha male type. Personally, I find it to be a little disgusting.
posted by Holy foxy moxie batman! at 12:14 PM on December 15, 2006

Men should realize that there is generally, someone out there that will 'get them.'

My beautiful wife understands everything about me and still likes me, god bless her.

Not every girl goes for an alpha male type.

This is true. I'm not an alpha male. I'm not even a beta male. I'm one of those letters way down in the sibilants.
posted by jonmc at 12:19 PM on December 15, 2006

MetaFilter: What happens when people stop being lovable retards and start getting real.
posted by sonofslim at 12:20 PM on December 15, 2006

Thank you for this public service announcement (PSA). I looked at the acronym page at fastseduction and was able to decipher some of the things I've heard the 30-something "boys" saying around here. Busted! Definitely answered some questions.

I also agree with Hoverboards. I can think of multiple instances in which I have tried to set up friends that I both thought were equally good-looking and would like each other's personalities, only to find that the girl was into meeting the guy, but the guy thought the girl was basically beneath him. Oh well, his loss.
posted by Eringatang at 12:23 PM on December 15, 2006

If a woman is horny and decides "Hey, I'm going to the bar and I'm going home with something tonight, as long as he's not a post-op tranny", there is PRACTICALLY ZERO CHANCE SHE WILL GO HOME ALONE.

Jesus Christ. I am a female, XX choromsones, etc., with two legs and two arms and one head, no major deformities, relatively sane, etc., and even in my salad days I went home alone more times than I could count. You think women don't pine and suffer and feel desire for unattainable men? Have you checked out Live Journal recently? This fantasy of female power to which so many men in this thread subscribe says a great deal about the inability to see women as human beings, and how powerless some men-- and not all, believe me-- feel in the face of desire. (And how angry and hostile it makes them.) It says nothing about the reality of women's lives. We yearn, too. We too find you beautiful, and scary, and we feel longing and desire and gaze from the sidelines and wish, and wish. It's not all that different.

The COST of that desire is different for men and women, that's all.
posted by jokeefe at 12:32 PM on December 15, 2006 [4 favorites]

We too find you beautiful, and scary,

For the love of God, why?
posted by jonmc at 12:33 PM on December 15, 2006

Yes, women do pine for men. Welcome to the world; I've had more than my fair share of heartbreak at the hands of men. However, when I go out to clubs or to a bar, I can go home with someone if I choose to. I don't, it's not really my style, but if I wanted to, I could. The truth is, my female friends that go out with me, they can go home with someone too.
I think the point that jonmc and others seem to be making is that, as a one night stand in a bar scene etc. women have the upper hand.
posted by Holy foxy moxie batman! at 12:36 PM on December 15, 2006

Yeah, why? Men are simple creatures. We like sex, hamburgers, Led Zeppelin and starting fires. What else could there possibly be to know?
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:40 PM on December 15, 2006 [1 favorite]

We like sex, hamburgers, Led Zeppelin and starting fires.

and strippers and firearms. mustn't forget the strippers and firearms.
posted by jonmc at 12:41 PM on December 15, 2006

Oh, and beer. Beer most of all.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:43 PM on December 15, 2006

Of course.
posted by jonmc at 12:44 PM on December 15, 2006

But not imported beer. Or anything in fancy green bottles.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:47 PM on December 15, 2006

we like sex, hamburgers, Led Zeppelin and starting fires.
and strippers and firearms. mustn't forget the strippers and firearms.

Basically anything that enhances our ability to go fast, destroy things, or get women. Or even just things that make us think about those things. Like movies about things that go fast, or documentaries about war, or anything that reminds us about sex if we haven't already thought about it spontaneously in the last 5 minutes.
posted by scheptech at 12:59 PM on December 15, 2006

But not imported beer. Or anything in fancy green bottles.

heinekken's beer for people who like wine.
posted by dflemingdotorg at 1:00 PM on December 15, 2006

*groan*

Before I leave you guys to beer and fires, let me just say thing one thing, Mr. jonmc: you have a woman who loves you, a decent, though frustrating job, a host of friends on and offline who wish you well, no major criminal record as far as I know, intelligence, wit, and a flair for writing. The next time you call yourself a loser I might have to come over there and smack you upside the head.
posted by jokeefe at 1:00 PM on December 15, 2006

OK, I just want to point out something that daHIFI said in his original comment, and clarify a bit: Specifically the lumping in of 'Greene' with the list of PUA authors. I am sort of spliting hairs, but Greene is all about the sedution, the long, slow, dance that really every _relationship_ is, where as the Mystery Method/DeAngelo et al are really about the PU itself. Just splitting hairs i realize, but important to me for anecdotal reasons. To wit:

Years ago, my marriage ended a bit roughly. I had a few friends that were single, but there was this one girl in the outer periphery of my circle who was insanely beautiful, funny, intelligent, all that sort of thing. And my self esteem was looooow. And i started talking to her with just that approach: sort of self conscious guy, interested in a beautiful woman. I actually heard about Greene's book here on the blue i think, bought it, read it, and was floored. It was (as has been mentioned) an instruction manual for the dance of seduction and courtship, not really a 'how to make girls think you make a lot of money and own shit' techique book....which worked out well, as I had sort of fallen into all my previous relationships, and spent a lot more time coding than dating in highshool and after. I adopted some of the techiques that Greene pointed out that seemed counter-intuitive...and you know what? That insanely hot girl and I dated for 3 years after that. Hell, she found the book a few years ago , and was actually pretty intrigued that I was interested enough in her that i would buy a how-to manual.

I point all of that out, because I have looked over the PU artist stuff, and thought that it really was more of a 'self hypnosis' thing, and perhaps a bit of method acting in there, to break the ice/short term manipulate some girl just to get laid..which honestly, i was looking for for a while after the last breakup...but I took more value and from Greene's work..even on an interpersonal level, not just in romantic relationships...and that knowledge (and my previous sucess with that knowledge) has been more of a confidence booster and succesful tool than any PU method would be...

But as someone else said " have more self confidence" is easy advice, but hard to implement.

I have studied Martial Arts for a number of years, and i was told from the begining WHAT to do..but it took PRACTICE to be able to do it. I think that is just as valid here...
posted by das_2099 at 1:01 PM on December 15, 2006

The COST of that desire is different for men and women, that's all.
posted by jokeefe at 12:32 PM PST on December 15


<---very very well said
posted by das_2099 at 1:04 PM on December 15, 2006

The next time you call yourself a loser I might have to come over there and smack you upside the head.

I use 'loser' the way a lot of rappers use 'nigga,' it's an ironic turnaround of a word people use to disparage. Like Randal said in Clerks 2, 'it's OK, I'm taking it back.' And, while I have all the things you've mentioned and I'm glad about, I am something of a fuckup and a bit clueless, but I'm kinda cool with that. I've made my peace with my own haplessness.
posted by jonmc at 1:05 PM on December 15, 2006

jokeefe: So you're telling me you have gone out, actively soliciting men for sex, and have gone home alone "more times than you could count"? You are really telling me that you have gone out on the town with the sole purpose of "getting lucky" and come up spades most of the time?

I simply don't believe that. I might believe that you went to a bar or club, sat down, talked with your friends, and then went home alone.

But I refuse to believe that despite your best efforsts you just simply couldn't find a willing male partner.

On second read, I think you're confusing the issue. jon, me, et al are not talking about "unattainable women". We are talking about just some girl... any girl.

As for me, I was pretty lucky. I do not consider myself handsome and I was able to be reasonably successful with women whilst dating, and then lucky enough to find a true beauty who was also a real sweetheart and we got married 10 years ago.

But, I realize I was successful because I knew how to connect and communicate instantly with girls, not because my looks got them weak in the knees. I always really enjoyed meeting new people and that excitement of the first few initial contacts and the whole air of intrigue and mystery. In other words, I was not timid, I was confident, and sure I struck out sometimes. But sometimes I didn't. Sometimes it was a great one night. Sometimes it was a great 6 months.

But I also realized through my network of friends that not everyone is that way. Lots of my friends, many I would judge to be more handsome than myself, struggled terribly in even meeting girls, much less making any progress physically or romantically with them. They dreaded "chatting up" a girl as much as going to the dentist. At least two of my friends I can think of off the top of my head, both mature, handsome, successful, financially secure guys, more or less had to wait for a girl to hunt them down and attack them because of what can only be labeled as "fear".

Guys do most of the asking, and guys get most of the rejection. Noone enjoys rejection, but some people handle it better than others.

scheptech: 5 minutes? That's what I call self control.
posted by Ynoxas at 1:08 PM on December 15, 2006

I use 'loser' the way a lot of rappers use 'nigga,' it's an ironic turnaround of a word people use to disparage. Like Randal said in Clerks 2, 'it's OK, I'm taking it back.' And, while I have all the things you've mentioned and I'm glad about, I am something of a fuckup and a bit clueless, but I'm kinda cool with that. I've made my peace with my own haplessness.

as much as i might've been the anti-jonmc for the past 24 hours, i respect the hell out of this comment.
posted by dflemingdotorg at 1:09 PM on December 15, 2006

You think women don't pine and suffer and feel desire for unattainable men?

Yeah, but you can go home with the socially retarded alcoholic psycho at the end of the bar any time you want! You're so lucky! It's not fair!
posted by Armitage Shanks at 1:10 PM on December 15, 2006 [2 favorites]

Been There. Done That, Armitage.
posted by jonmc at 1:16 PM on December 15, 2006

Yeah, it sucks that unattainable perfection and retarded alcoholic psychos are the only choices.
posted by InfidelZombie at 1:19 PM on December 15, 2006

For the record, I was taking the piss with all that stuff about beer, fire and Led Zeppelin. Not that I don't like all of those things, but this whole idea that men are less "complicated" than women is Married With Children-level bullshit.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:22 PM on December 15, 2006

Lust needs no justification. It's built into the human body. Way more so in males than in females.
posted by jonmc

You're hanging out with the wrong females.

Because for a long time I was the generic 'nice guy' poster and for the most part it gained me either condescension or patronizing encouragement. I got tired of it and decided to just start saying what I thought. I stopped being a lovable retard and starting being an assertive human and that bugs some people.

You're delusional jon. Your assertivness doesn't bother anyone (and I don't see anyone putting you down). You simply argue with every single comment and never shut up. Nothing wrong with that, of course.
posted by justgary at 1:27 PM on December 15, 2006

What jokeefe said. I've started to answer this thread like 10 times and given up, but I have to chime in here to agree with her. To totally agree with her. As I agree with what hoverboards said way upthread.

Yes, I have gone to a bar planning on picking up a guy and gone home alone, more than once. Yes, so have my friends. Yes, I'm over forty, but I swear to you that I was rejected, dejected, hung down and brung down occasionally even 15 years ago and I don't think I've hardly ever set foot into this universe where I have all this mystical erotic power whereby I can pick or choose any man in the bar. Huh. I've been missing out. It's a lot easier to believe that one sex is holding all the cards but I'm afraid reality is a lot more complicated than that and in fact we're all kind of stumbling in the dark most of the time.

Some of this is age: it's true that things really, really, really change when you get into your late thirties (probably for the better in many ways, including the ability to see through sociopaths with weird internet scoring agendas, or so one hopes, although . . .god.) To be honest I don't remember any of my friends of any sex having much if any problem picking each other or total strangers up in our twenties, but I can guarantee you that it is a completely different game 20 years later.
posted by mygothlaundry at 2:01 PM on December 15, 2006 [3 favorites]

I heart you, MGL. I should say that more often.
posted by jokeefe at 2:18 PM on December 15, 2006

Damn, this must be why I always see complete "nerds" going out with hot chicks. In Austin, it's like an epidemic.

I can think of several reasons besides pick-up artistry and speed seduction that explain why nerds now have a (relatively speaking) easier time seducing and dating "hot chicks": the dot-com boom (you could be the wife of the next Bill Gates!), feminism (b/c nerds are less likely to be patriarchal assholes than some frat boy), the belief that nerds make better and/or kinkier lovers (put on that Princess Leia bikini for the best sex of your life!), archetypes from popular culture where the nerd "gets the girl" (cf. Ross & Rachel on Friends, Weezer's "Beverly Hills" video), the belief that nerds do better at intelligent conversation etc. Back when I lived in the San Francisco Bay Area, there were lots of women on craigslist who literally said they were looking for geeks to date. Maybe it has less to do with pick-up methods than the fact that "every geek has his day."
posted by jonp72 at 2:24 PM on December 15, 2006

Maybe it had to do with the fact that the women were geeks themselves, and were looking for men they had things in common with.
posted by jokeefe at 2:34 PM on December 15, 2006

Men should realize that there is generally, someone out there that will 'get them.

Sure. It's just a matter of that person being attractive enough, being horny enough, being cool enough and being smart enough for me to get them.

But we'd still like to get laid in the mean time, which is why we subject ourselves to the retarded freakshow of picking up girls at bars.
posted by spaltavian at 2:45 PM on December 15, 2006

I knew a guy in college who got more pity sex than most guys get regular sex in their whole lives. Seriously, every girl he slept with that I talked to said it was pity sex. I don't know what weird mojo he was working, but it worked for him.
posted by BrotherCaine at 2:47 PM on December 15, 2006

Yes, so have my friends. Yes, I'm over forty, but I swear to you that I was rejected, dejected, hung down and brung down occasionally even 15 years ago and I don't think I've hardly ever set foot into this universe where I have all this mystical erotic power whereby I can pick or choose any man in the bar.

Try being brazen; I can hardly ever tell if a woman is in to me for fuck's sake. This doesn't apply to the bar scene, but on dates I usually just kiss her at the best moment I can think of, and 60% of the time I don't get outright recjected, but there was certianly a "wtf?" atmosphere.

Maybe no one has ever really wanted me to kiss them, but 40% of the time the girl is really nice.
posted by spaltavian at 2:50 PM on December 15, 2006

Merlyn:

Peter McDermott:Can you pass the age and weight tests, Merlyn?

Age and weight are secondary considerations in the arena!

OK, then here's one old fat bastard wants a ticket as well!
posted by PeterMcDermott at 3:01 PM on December 15, 2006

muddgirl: "A friend of mine, who was pretty heavy in the one night stand bar scene, says she eventually gave it up because it ultimately wasn't sexually satisfying for her. (since we're all obviously talking anecdotally)."

In my experience, muddgirl, it's not that sexually satisfying for men either. I think that it's something that men feel they have to be able to do to feel good about themselves, and there is a certain confidence-building thing about learning that you *can* pick women up, but in this man's (now extremely dated) experience at least, the sex tends to be pretty crappy -- largely due to the lack of honest, open communication.
posted by <