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US deaths in Iraq exceed 9/11 deaths today
December 26, 2006 10:57 AM   Subscribe

US deaths in Iraq exceed 9/11 deaths today but of course the Iraqi deaths crossed that line long ago.
posted by Kickstart70 (74 comments total)

 
Given that Iraq didn't cause 9/11, that's kind of a meaningless statistic, in absolutely real terms.

Unfortunately, it might just be a useful thing for the left to hammer.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 11:00 AM on December 26, 2006


It's not really meaningless at all--Bush and the Administration still use 9/11 daily as a bludgeon over our heads, and as a reason for us to have invaded in the first place. The world changed that day--you didn't hear? : <
posted by amberglow at 11:06 AM on December 26, 2006


Does anyone have any links to info on how many Iraqis died under Saddam's rule? I am sure he didn't keep track, but are there any estimates?

And, most of the Iraqi deaths are not accidental civilian casualties as a result of U.S. attacks, but are from other Iraqi factions, from what I understand.

There is no sarcasm or snark here: I am genuinely curious, so if anyone can lead me to a good article or information, I'd appreciate it.
posted by The Deej at 11:23 AM on December 26, 2006


Happy holidays!
posted by Robot Johnny at 11:23 AM on December 26, 2006


It's not really meaningless at all--Bush and the Administration still use 9/11 daily as a bludgeon over our heads,

Well, at this point I think even the most thickheaded people have figured out that it wasn't the Iraqis behind 9/11. NTM, for all the bloodshed and legal chicanery, the people behind 9/11 are still out there, so we don't even have that to console ourselves with at this point.
posted by jonmc at 11:24 AM on December 26, 2006


best of the web?
posted by mds35 at 11:30 AM on December 26, 2006


jonmc: Well, at this point I think even the most thickheaded people have figured out that it wasn't the Iraqis behind 9/11.

Even if they have, many still believe that both events are part of the greater fabric of a War on Terror, and that the invasion of Iraq somehow keeps terrorist activity focused elsewhere and offshore. Proponents of this theory will argue that Bush's actions since 9/11 are vindicated by the fact that no second attack of that scale has occurred since. This is of course a post-hoc-ergo-propter-hoc argument, but people do believe it.
posted by kid ichorous at 11:34 AM on December 26, 2006 [1 favorite]


It's not meaningless. It means George W. Bush has gotten more Americans killed than bin Laden. And he's far from finished.
posted by grytpype at 11:44 AM on December 26, 2006 [6 favorites]


amberglow writes "It's not really meaningless at all--Bush and the Administration still use 9/11 daily as a bludgeon over our heads, and as a reason for us to have invaded in the first place."

I said 'in real terms'--meaning, on the basis of fact.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 11:47 AM on December 26, 2006


The Deej: Human Rights Watch has estimated Saddam Hussein's regime killed 250,000 to 290,000 people over 20 years. [i]
posted by sexymofo at 11:49 AM on December 26, 2006


Well, at this point I think even the most thickheaded people have figured out that it wasn't the Iraqis behind 9/11.
July 06 Harris Poll: Sixty-four percent say it is true that Saddam Hussein had strong links to Al Qaeda (the same as 64% in February 2005).
posted by amberglow at 11:52 AM on December 26, 2006


Parents travel to Iraq
posted by ewkpates at 11:53 AM on December 26, 2006


Disillusionment with war is an overlooked psychological liability on the battlefield, experts say -- and could lead to higher rates of PTSD among U.S. soldiers in Iraq.
posted by homunculus at 11:54 AM on December 26, 2006


Wow thanks, sexymofo.
posted by The Deej at 11:56 AM on December 26, 2006


So George Bush's war to up his father has now killed more Americans than bin Laden, killed more Iraqis that Saddam, and left us all in a more dangerous world.

Wow. That is quite the feather in George's cap.

Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11 though, nor does it have a damn thing to do with the war on terror, so this metric actually plays into the propaganda game that Bush likes, which is to link his war to up his father with the 9/11 attacks. On any given day, you'll see a hundred talking heads on TV link Iraq and the war on terror, and this is just another example. And they like to call themselves independent thinkers.

And sadly, jonmc, most people actually have not figured out that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11.
posted by teece at 12:03 PM on December 26, 2006 [1 favorite]


“I’m sleeping a lot better than people would assume.”
posted by amberglow at 12:09 PM on December 26, 2006


And sadly, jonmc, most people actually have not figured out that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11.

Those poll results are a surprise, at least to me.

The main point I was getting at, is that we can't even console ourselves by saying, 'well, at least we got 'em,' cause we didn't, and at this point we probably never will since we wasted so much time.
posted by jonmc at 12:14 PM on December 26, 2006


WHY did George W. Bush let George W. Bush escape at Tora Bora? It's almost as if he WANTS himself to live to kill again!
posted by sonofsamiam at 12:16 PM on December 26, 2006


Iraq: More Hellish Now Than Under Saddam
posted by homunculus at 12:23 PM on December 26, 2006


Authors of Lancet Study, Middle East Analyst Juan Cole Testify at Kucinich Hearing on Civilian Casualties in Iraq
posted by homunculus at 12:25 PM on December 26, 2006


One of the reasons Americans are utterly clueless about the mid-East.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:39 PM on December 26, 2006



Does anyone have any links to info on how many Iraqis died under Saddam's rule? I am sure he didn't keep track, but are there any estimates?


From a cursory investigation of this report it looks like Hussein's murders amounted to tens of thousands, not the millions we've inflicted since sanctions began and after this current war started.
posted by eparchos at 12:50 PM on December 26, 2006


What about the incontrovertible evidence that points out Saddam's direct involvement in the 12/7 attack?
posted by squalor at 1:00 PM on December 26, 2006


War crimes charges, the minute these motherf*ckers are out of office. That's the only thing that will make me happy.
posted by spitbull at 1:01 PM on December 26, 2006


Top Ten Myths about Iraq 2006
posted by homunculus at 1:15 PM on December 26, 2006


And the number of Iraqi deaths remains unknown or only esitimated... but who gives a shit about them?
posted by Artw at 1:42 PM on December 26, 2006


From homunculus' link: From the beginning of history until 2003 there had never been a suicide bombing in Iraq.

No, that is not a myth being dubunked. That is a fact they use to debunk a myth.

I am not confident enough to say there has never been a suicide bombing on my street since the beginning of time, much less in an entire country for the history of time. Perhaps the point could have been made in a slightly more reasonable fashion.
posted by flarbuse at 1:51 PM on December 26, 2006


As for the forgotten alleged object of this war...

I've read that the minister in Iraq's government, justice or attorney general, apparently does not support the death penalty and will defer to a (I assume) lower official to sign Hussein's death warrant.

Whoever does it get some nasty blood on his hands... and on his family's hands too no doubt. It will be interesting to see if Saddam's execution has a big impact on the course of this disaster one way or the other.
posted by crowman at 2:01 PM on December 26, 2006


Hey, but we're "Fighting them over there so we don't have to fight them here."

Anyone actually in touch with reality should be appalled that Bush has CREATED this new "Over There," and the Iraqi people are the hapless residents caught in the middle of his WaronTerrorLand.

And re: amberglow's link “I’m sleeping a lot better than people would assume.”
My god, Bush is such a horrid shadow of a real man.
posted by NorthernLite at 2:14 PM on December 26, 2006


Wait, does this mean we win?
posted by jtron at 2:16 PM on December 26, 2006


No, it means we all lose.
posted by signal at 2:30 PM on December 26, 2006


I usually stay out of political threads, but I have a relevant anecdote for once.

Anyone actually in touch with reality should be appalled that Bush has CREATED this new "Over There"...

This one guy that I know, who has some unusually dissonant (even for a neo-con) ideas on politics, put forth the idea that Iraq was created to be a terrorist honeypot. I.e., that "we" are purposefully creating a perfect climate for terrorists, in order to "get them all in one place." Presumably, so "we" can eradicate them? He said this with a straight face, as if this were a good idea. It's just bizarre to think that someone so intelligent, and radically liberal on many issues, can ever entertain a thought like that seriously, and not incur some sort of brain damage.

Anyway, I guess my point is that to many people for certain situations, facts, ethics, morality, reason, motives, history, effectiveness, and fiscal responsibility don't matter. I can't quite figure out what does matter to them, but there you go.
posted by synaesthetichaze at 2:39 PM on December 26, 2006


Study: Iraq's Death Toll Has Reached 655,000.
posted by disgruntled at 2:55 PM on December 26, 2006


...Iraq was created to be a terrorist honeypot

I think your friend has Pakistan in the 1980s and modern Iraq confused.
posted by eparchos at 3:15 PM on December 26, 2006


Firemen should start fires deliberately, os that the fire can be "all in one place".
posted by Artw at 3:17 PM on December 26, 2006 [2 favorites]


Hundreds of people murdered on 9/11 were not American citizens. The number of American casualties in Iraq exceeded the number of American casualties in New York quite a while ago. If it's Americans that we're counting.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:07 PM on December 26, 2006


Charles Johnson (or LGF) finds this Disgusting and ghoulish beyond belief.

Er, The reporting of this, that is.
posted by delmoi at 5:11 PM on December 26, 2006


oops, that should be "of" LGF.
posted by delmoi at 5:13 PM on December 26, 2006


don't they find the reporting of anything that upsets their worldview disgusting and something to be attacked?

and did they find it ghoulish when Bush used 9/11 in campaign commercials, and when he uses it daily even today for political points?

interesting and horrible thing on the British having to attack a police station in Basra they themselves established with Iraqis they themselves have been working with (or something).
posted by amberglow at 5:38 PM on December 26, 2006


Re: delmoi's link
I love how "anti-American" and "left-wing" continue to be equated in the minds of these fascists. No, I really do mean fascists. Note I did not say "anti-American fascists", because I'm not an imbecile.
feh!
posted by eparchos at 5:38 PM on December 26, 2006


this is just plain sad
posted by lilafain at 6:27 PM on December 26, 2006


The AP lost Iraq, so their ghoulish behavior isn't surprising.
posted by homunculus at 6:38 PM on December 26, 2006


from delmoi's lgf link: They’ve obviously been watching and waiting for this magic number, to file a report like this—an empty-headed, amoral attempt to equate things that are not equivalent,

But based on all the discussions in the run up to the war where the president repeatedly and consistently used 9/11 as a reason to attack, to the point where the two issues were conflated in the majority of American minds, they are most certainly equivalent. They were made equivalent by the constant comparisons of right wing sites and pundits who have over the last four years used the example of one to justify the other.

So the author is right. In the real world, the two things are not equivalent, but in the world that they have manufactured with their unending stream of misleading facts, they are just about the same. And they have only themselves to blame for that.

amberglow : and did they find it ghoulish when Bush used 9/11 in campaign commercials, and when he uses it daily even today for political points?

Exactly.
posted by quin at 7:37 PM on December 26, 2006


Never forget.
posted by Nahum Tate at 8:00 PM on December 26, 2006


I have been trying so hard to keep up with Iraq and Afganistan and the war on terra and what liquid i can take and how many lighters i can have and how to pronounce the latest threat to america and what did jon stewart say and how much should i hate bush.

i am tired. and where the fuck did santa go?
posted by YoBananaBoy at 8:13 PM on December 26, 2006


Charles Johnson (of LGF) published video footage of people jumping to their deaths on 9/11 without asking the family members if they'd allow it (I guess they managed to identify some of the jumpers).

Who's a ghoul?
posted by bardic at 8:49 PM on December 26, 2006


did he really? that truly is ghoulish.

Ford's dead, so we won't be hearing anything about this milestone, or anything at all about Iraq for at least a week.
posted by amberglow at 9:01 PM on December 26, 2006


Fatigue, Resignation Over Iraq: GIs from Ft. Stewart prepare for their third combat tour, and they're not eager.
posted by homunculus at 9:57 PM on December 26, 2006


so, was it good for you?
posted by StrasbourgSecaucus at 10:02 PM on December 26, 2006


Ghoul? Ghoul? That's a good word. A fresh outrage in the Five Points.
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:03 PM on December 26, 2006


[sotto voice] homunculus, how is it that you can so quickly pull so many relevant links into a thread? are you a news junkie or is there some clearinghouse that you haunt? I ask out of jealousy.
posted by quin at 10:11 PM on December 26, 2006


Astro Zombie : Ghoul? Ghoul? That's a good word.

ghoul /gul/
–noun
1. an evil demon, originally of Oriental legend, supposed to feed on human beings, and especially to rob graves, prey on corpses, etc.


I feel like we keep having this same conversation Zombie.
posted by quin at 10:15 PM on December 26, 2006


quin, I'm just a news junkie.
posted by homunculus at 10:29 PM on December 26, 2006


Well, your hella good at it. My envy is damn near palatable.
posted by quin at 10:39 PM on December 26, 2006


your = you're. damnit.
posted by quin at 10:43 PM on December 26, 2006


quin said: Well, your hella good at it. My envy is damn near palatable.

palatable?
posted by altman at 12:27 AM on December 27, 2006


You gotta palp it
Before you plate it
Roll it around on your tongue
To taste it
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 12:32 AM on December 27, 2006


eparchos writes "Note I did not say 'anti-American fascists', because I'm not an imbecile."

See, I would absolutely say that fascists from the USA are completely anti-American, as in against everything that America theoretically stands for.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 4:26 AM on December 27, 2006


I went to the doctor for a headache, and he took a hacksaw and cut off the the last two joints of my ring finger. He asked me whether my head still hurt and, I've got to say it sure seemed like it hurt less.
posted by I Foody at 7:03 AM on December 27, 2006


Yeah: here I make a joke about how I meant to type that. How I was making some clever play on words. Something, not unlike what stavros penned. But the fact is, I was just being stupid, typing too fast, and not checking my work.

Therefore, the word for the day is "Palpable". Don't be like me kids; Learn it. Spell it. Know it.
posted by quin at 7:50 AM on December 27, 2006


“British and Iraqi forces transferred all 76 prisoners at the station to another facility in downtown Basra, he said. Some prisoners had "classic torture injuries" such as crushed hands and feet, cigarette and electrical burns and gunshot wounds in the knees, Burbridge said.”

One of the few reasons I can see to stay. And some of the good that can come from this. But given that the U.S. detained two Iranians who were in Iraq at Talabani’s invitation and called it validation of the White House’s claims about Iranian meddling, it seems any good also serves to grease the treads of the juggernaut.

I don’t know WTF Johnson is talking about “silently rewitten” and “memory hole.” The story didn’t morph into something else, the lead changed slightly. (And really, fuck him anyway) But I think he’s right about it being ghoulish. And some of y’all are right about Bush using it being ghoulish. In theory the former is neutral (well, they want to sell their product obviously) and the latter is self-serving.
I don’t think it’s a newspaper’s job - outside of the op-ed page - to do that sort of social commentary. I suppose it’s something to hang one’s hat on as a number and so do a story on casualties. I have to agree that it is, strictly speaking, an arbitrary figure - unless you’re going to address the thing directly. Otherwise it’s insinuation, which is damaging to the overall debate.
Ok, so more casualties than 9/11 means what?
That if Bush could have executed the war with less casualies to U.S. troops than victims of the terrorist bombing the Iraq war would have been successful or the correct path or whatever? More casualties than the 9/11 attack does not validate or invalidate the causes for the Iraq war any more than Bushco’s use of the event as a stalking horse does. Casualty levels only enter into the cost where the objectives are defined. E.g. is it worth 10,000 men to take that bridge? No. Is it worth 5,000? No. Is it worth 100? Yes. Ok that’s the plan we’ll go with.
If the objective is something on the order of fighting the Nazis or revolting against oppression than no cost of casualties is too high. If the objective is false, than the death of even one man is too high a price.
Unfortunately not enough people are affected by one soldier’s death to spur anyone to actually change anything en mass.
I talked to someone over the holiday who was pro-war and I asked when his grandsons would be joining. That really put the brakes on the conversation.
Everyone’s a hero until it comes time to put it on the line.

Meanwhile someone’s son or daughter is that “one casualty more than 9/11” and that’s all the press they get.
I’m with lilafain on this.
posted by Smedleyman at 2:19 PM on December 27, 2006


MetaFilter: Your hella is damn near palatable.
posted by homunculus at 3:06 PM on December 27, 2006


Intelligence sources say President Bush -- along with Israel's Ehud Olmert and the UK's Tony Blair -- are weighing the possibility of Israeli-led attacks on Syria and Iran in early 2007, with the United States providing logistical back-up.
posted by homunculus at 3:08 PM on December 27, 2006


Now that'd make the shitstorm so far look like an ant-fart in a hurricane.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 4:37 PM on December 27, 2006


See, I would absolutely say that fascists from the USA are completely anti-American, as in against everything that America theoretically stands for.

Like unification of private interests and governance? Or perhaps the "moral purity"... oh wait, I mean "family values"? Or the jingoistic nationalism? Or the strengthening of the executive branch of gevernment?
Sorry, but fascism is a real, living political ideology, no matter how people like to dress it up. I'm not talking about theoretical America here, I'm talking about real America that we all live in. I wouldn't label any American "anti-American" until they came out and said something along the lines of "I hate America and I want to see it destroyed totally." If, however, they simply have a vision of how they think America should be and want to work towards changing their country into something more closely approximating their vision... well, you don't get more fundamentally American than that, whether you're a Fascist or a Communist or anything in between.
posted by eparchos at 7:25 PM on December 27, 2006


*government, dang it.
posted by eparchos at 7:26 PM on December 27, 2006


I am sure he didn't keep track, but are there any estimates?

Man, if I were an evil dictator, I'd so keep track.

Er. Not that I have any plans, or anything...

*looks around, whistles, glances at The Device*
posted by Spike at 2:06 AM on December 28, 2006


US deaths in Iraq exceeded US deaths in the September 11 attacks months ago. Over three hundred of the victims of the September 11 attacks weren't Americans.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:49 PM on December 28, 2006


True, and usually forgotten -- I did mention that already.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 5:53 PM on December 28, 2006


Yes, but you're not American, so no one listens to you.
posted by homunculus at 6:31 PM on December 28, 2006


*slaps forehead*

So that's what it is!
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 6:31 PM on December 28, 2006


I kid, of course. Please don't slap me with one of your mittens.
posted by homunculus at 6:36 PM on December 28, 2006


My bad!
posted by kirkaracha at 7:03 AM on December 29, 2006


Riverbend: End of Another Year...
posted by homunculus at 6:40 PM on December 29, 2006


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