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The McMissile Case
January 5, 2007 12:22 PM Subscribe

Virginia woman could get 2 years in prison for throwing McDonald's bag- a jury in Stafford County, Virginia has recommended a two-year prison sentence for Jessica Julia Hall, a 25-year-old mother of three, for throwing a bag with a soft drink inside into the car next to her. She was convicted of a felony offense after getting into an altercation with another driver on I-95 between Fredericksburg, VA and Washington, DC - widely considered to be one of the most congested stretches of road on the East Coast. Anyone who drives in the DC area can tell you how overcrowded the highways are. It gets worse in the summer when the tempratures rise and tempers flare. This could be an example of excessive justice, or perhaps juries in this area have had enough.
posted by smoothvirus (146 comments total) 1 user marked this as a favorite

Would you like files with that?
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:26 PM on January 5, 2007

it could be considered assault. that's a whole lot of high-fructose corn syrup.*

oh, that and throwing something at another motorist while the car is in motion is really fucking dangerous. so yeah. seems to me like it's justice served.

side note: why did the article feel obligated to mention her husband is serving in iraq?

^*speaking as a diabetic.
posted by jcterminal at 12:27 PM on January 5, 2007

Instead of two years, I thing a healthy punch in the face would have been in order. Taking two years of someone's life is not justice.
posted by kuatto at 12:29 PM on January 5, 2007

She's an ass, but not 2 years in prison worth of ass. Fine, suspend license, and release. It sounds like traffic was creeping along, so not really dangerous but really annoying to throw your drink at someone. If they were proceeding with any kind of speed, though, this certainly warrants jail time. Couldn't tell from the article, but it sounded like the traffic was very heavy and slow.
posted by Mister_A at 12:31 PM on January 5, 2007

I'm having a hard time understanding the wording of the article. It says that the jury "recommended" a two year sentence. I don't know anything about the Virginia criminal justice system, but in most states, the jury only plays a role in sentencing in capital cases. Are juries in Virginia responsible for sentencing? Or is the journalist just citing the maximum sentence for the crime the woman has been convicted of?
posted by mr_roboto at 12:31 PM on January 5, 2007

On the weekends it takes ~ 30 minutes for me to get into D.C. During the week it takes > 2 hours to travel the same 30 miles.

When I drove (now I'm a mass transit convert, buses) I saw at least one accident everyday, mostly minor fender benders from aggressive drivers or people trying to change lanes in stop and go traffic. I don't even know what the actual speed limit on the beltway is; everyone either goes 80+ mph or <20 mph. Everyone here drives like idiots, and it's depressingly contagious. Whenever I go visit relatives for the holidays I have to consciously back off of people's tailgates and let people merge.
posted by JeremiahBritt at 12:32 PM on January 5, 2007

I can't stand idiots like her. I like the precedent this would set.
posted by amro at 12:33 PM on January 5, 2007 [1 favorite]

My daily commute in DC is about an hour to go 15 miles.

When not in rush hour, it's a 25 minute trip, if that.
posted by empath at 12:38 PM on January 5, 2007

Hall's bond was revoked yesterday and she will be in jail at least until her formal sentencing on Feb. 21, when defense attorney Terence Patton is sure to ask a judge to reduce or suspend altogether the two years Hall is facing.

Oh, yeah, and it says she drove on the shoulder then cut back in, my personal pet peeve and easily worth two weeks or so in jail.
posted by fixedgear at 12:42 PM on January 5, 2007

Revoke her license.... why go further?
posted by odinsdream at 12:42 PM on January 5, 2007

Revoke her license.... why go further?

she went further than breaking a traffic law.
posted by dflemingdotorg at 12:45 PM on January 5, 2007

Maybe the fries were too hot and the other car was just in the wrong place/wrong time? Tragic, yes, but surely McDonald's is partially to blame. Bottom line: She's not loving it. Perhaps, dare I say, none of us are loving it?
posted by hal9k at 12:48 PM on January 5, 2007 [1 favorite]

fixedgear: "Oh, yeah, and it says she drove on the shoulder then cut back in, my personal pet peeve and easily worth two weeks or so in jail."

Yeah. But two years is excessive.

A punch in the face might be a good idea, except that would just encourage more road-rage, I believe, by people believing they had a right to go around punching others in the face.

So: I would've called it a month. A month in jail is scary enough, and a pretty great warning to others.
posted by koeselitz at 12:50 PM on January 5, 2007

Meh. I threw a can of warm orange soda at (into the car of) a driver (stopped at the time) who almost killed me on 76 in Philly when I was on my way home for a nooner. It's really not as bad as it sounds, and frankly I think the guy (that I threw at) deserved a lot more than a soda to the face. The "victim" in this story sounds like a whiny arrogant douche who thinks he should be able to run around flipping people off with no fear of sugary, carbonated reprisal.
posted by bunnycup at 12:52 PM on January 5, 2007

Lop off her head, I say.
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 12:57 PM on January 5, 2007

bunnycup, where does it say the victim flipped anyone off?
posted by MrMoonPie at 12:58 PM on January 5, 2007

"Are juries in Virginia responsible for sentencing?"

Yes. They're given a set of guidelines for sentencing. On a recent trip to MD, I was listening to a host on DC 101 describe a recent jury duty experience and she explained quite a bit about how the VA system worked.
posted by drstein at 12:59 PM on January 5, 2007

Oh, I see: "a gesture expressing exasperation with her driving." You could be correct.
posted by MrMoonPie at 12:59 PM on January 5, 2007

When I was a bike messenger, I was riding toward one of the "trendy" parts of town with a friend of mine on a Friday night. Some schmuck tossed his McDonald's bag full of trash out the window of his slow-moving car. It was a warm summer night, and he had the window open, so my friend picked up the bag and stuffed it right back in through the driver's window. Then the driver got out and chased after him for about a block, it was really hysterical and absurd. My friend summed it up with something along the lines of "imagine how fast he could run if he didn't eat that crap!"
posted by Mister_A at 12:59 PM on January 5, 2007 [5 favorites]

it could be considered assault. that's a whole lot of high-fructose corn syrup.*

If there were fries in the bag, it could be considered a-salt.

Ha!
posted by smackfu at 1:00 PM on January 5, 2007 [1 favorite]

Hall testified at her sentencing hearing that she regretted what she did, but said it was a mutual road-rage incident. She compared her actions to "giving someone the finger."

Hmmmmmm. It doesn't seem like the 'Yes, I did it - and I'd do it again' defense worked in her favor. But, yeah, a month in jail, some suspension of driving privileges, and fines are in order. I don't know much about the law in this case, but people rarely serve their entire sentence behind bars. Two years could easily translate into a few months and than parole.
posted by elwoodwiles at 1:01 PM on January 5, 2007

Oh, I see: "a gesture expressing exasperation with her driving." You could be correct.

It does seem unnecessarily coy, though.
posted by amro at 1:03 PM on January 5, 2007

(The description of flipping the bird, I mean.)
posted by amro at 1:04 PM on January 5, 2007

Fine, suspend license, and release.

Too bad that wont actually do anything. People drive on suspended licenses all the time. People drive without a license.
posted by SirOmega at 1:05 PM on January 5, 2007

san francisco has the 2nd worst traffic in the country?
hmm, i guess my frustration with 101 is justified...
posted by jcruelty at 1:06 PM on January 5, 2007

What you mean that suspending her license won't magically stop her from operating a motor vehicle? REALLY?!?!one!questionmark!?
posted by Mister_A at 1:08 PM on January 5, 2007

Her lawyer, in her defense, claims it was a Happy Meal.
posted by weapons-grade pandemonium at 1:09 PM on January 5, 2007 [2 favorites]

It says she could get. At most. She almost certanly won't actually get that. Come on.
posted by delmoi at 1:11 PM on January 5, 2007

I'm having a hard time understanding the wording of the article. It says that the jury "recommended" a two year sentence.

IANAL, but I think it goes like this: after the jury finds her guilty, they are told the penalties of the crime and given instructions to go back to deliberate on the sentence (same jury for both parts). After these deliberations, they recommend a sentence to the court. Then the jury is done and free to go. The judge decides the actual sentence in a sentencing hearing, a few weeks later most likely, where the sentence is imposed.

On preview, what drstein said.
posted by peeedro at 1:12 PM on January 5, 2007

Too bad that wont actually do anything. People drive on suspended licenses all the time. People drive without a license.

Well, it might stop her from throwing things out the window of her car, which is the point, right?
posted by delmoi at 1:12 PM on January 5, 2007

Hmm...I would hate to say it, but driving on the shoulder of the road in stop and go traffic and then getting pissy about another driver not acquiescing to her behaviour does not call for throwing a drink into a person's car. She is lucky she didn't get her ass shot or someone killed in the process by her crap driving. I get stuck in Bay Area traffic all the time. Deal kid.
posted by Holy foxy moxie batman! at 1:12 PM on January 5, 2007

"I'd like to buy the world a coke,
at 50mph in the left hand lane
during rush-hour.
And garnish it with fries."
posted by blue_beetle at 1:14 PM on January 5, 2007 [1 favorite]

But two years is excessive.
i agree, maybe a few months instead. besides, this dipshit has 3 more dipshits to raise with no dad around, 2 years might fuck them up worse. throwing shit at other drivers is just fucked up in general. there's enough litter, and folks need to grow up. there are a LOT of people who do a LOT of really stupid things on the road, why compound the problem with more stupitidy? ever hear of taking the high road (accidental pun. ick)? i know that if someone is a REAL problem on the road, like a drunk driver or just out of control, i call the cops and report them, but i'm cirtainly not going to play vigilante. i'd also like to say that i think traffic accidents are often cause by a phenomena called an accident. I don't think that most people are purposely dillholes on the road, or are out kill others. sure, some like that might be out there, but come on, get real! a honk will let most people know they've done something inconsiderate or dangerous. i know if i'm honked at (which is rare because i'm one of those rare considerate drivers), it shakes me up enough to raise my awareness.
posted by lisalisa123 at 1:15 PM on January 5, 2007

side note: why did the article feel obligated to mention her husband is serving in iraq?

Because ultimately, this entire incident is the fault of Bush's idiotic war of opportunity.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 1:19 PM on January 5, 2007

Metafilter: why compound the problem with more stupitidy?

Sorry.
posted by amro at 1:24 PM on January 5, 2007

Two years could easily translate into a few months and than parole.

There is no parole or early release in Virginia. Two years is two years, period.
posted by smoothvirus at 1:25 PM on January 5, 2007

almost forgot...
Though there's no parole here, a judge in Virginia can give her a month (or 2 or whatever) and then suspend the rest of the sentence.
posted by smoothvirus at 1:26 PM on January 5, 2007

I think her actions were pretty brave considering some of the road rage stories I've heard. What if the guy was a nutcase?

I'd say she's lucky she isn't dead or injured.
posted by Totally Zanzibarin' Ya at 1:26 PM on January 5, 2007

When I was a bike messenger, I was riding toward one of the "trendy" parts of town with a friend of mine on a Friday night. Some schmuck tossed his McDonald's bag full of trash out the window of his slow-moving car. It was a warm summer night, and he had the window open, so my friend picked up the bag and stuffed it right back in through the driver's window. Then the driver got out and chased after him for about a block, it was really hysterical and absurd. My friend summed it up with something along the lines of "imagine how fast he could run if he didn't eat that crap!"
posted by Mister_A

Almost the exact same thing happened in Toronto last year, except the messenger was female, and it was all caught on camera.
posted by loiseau at 1:27 PM on January 5, 2007

I've always fantasized about doing this to one of those idiots who leans out of his car window to scream shit at pedestrians as he speeds past. In my fantasy, I have a Big Gulp full of grape soda and I time it perfectly so it nails the fucker right in the gob, completely drenching his face, hair, and clothes, and ruining the immaculate interior of his (expensive) new car. Of course, I'd feel pretty bad if it caused him to wreck and injure innocent people. Still, it's a nice little daydream, isn't it?
posted by gigawhat? at 1:32 PM on January 5, 2007

I've reached a point to where I just give up when it comes to inconsiderate drivers. There's one me and a million idiots on the road. The odds clearly are not in my favor. No more flipping the bird, no more acting a damn fool when someone cuts me off, I just do my best to dodge an accident and go on. And sometimes, like once every 75 years, I'm the idiot on the road, which, after awakening to this realization, is another reason I find myself freaking out less in traffic.

And I love the bike messenger story, btw.
posted by Brown Jenkin at 1:32 PM on January 5, 2007 [1 favorite]

Meh. I threw a can of warm orange soda at (into the car of) a driver (stopped at the time) who almost killed me on 76 in Philly when I was on my way home for a nooner...

On your next nooner, I hope you don't get the finger.
posted by hal9k at 1:35 PM on January 5, 2007

Man, Virginia's tough on crime. When the "DC snipers" were brought to trial, everyone involved across states got together and agreed to let Virginia handle the case, so that there was a virtual 100% chance of conviction with capital punishment. Remind me not to sneeze next time I drive through the state.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:43 PM on January 5, 2007

Welcome back "Jean Val Jean"
posted by zouhair at 1:43 PM on January 5, 2007

there's no describing how bad that stretch of i-95 is.
posted by 3.2.3 at 1:47 PM on January 5, 2007

This and many other traffic related problems will be solved once high powered traffic management computer systems control all the vehicles on a given strectch of road. Like packets through a router, every path will be optimized with no actual stops, only slowing to adjust. Perhaps in 20 years or less this will be in places like Singapore with other cities to follow.
posted by Burhanistan at 1:48 PM on January 5, 2007

bunnycup :: Meh. I threw a can of warm orange soda at (into the car of) a driver (stopped at the time) who almost killed me on 76 in Philly when I was on my way home for a nooner. It's really not as bad as it sounds, and frankly I think the guy (that I threw at) deserved a lot more than a soda to the face.

Excuse me. You threw an aluminum can at someone while driving? Do you have any idea how hard those things can hit, even if the can is open, even if the target is "stopped"? Perhaps this guy did deserve a lot more than a soda to the face, but you're not Judge Dredd. People make mistakes and bad decisions all the time while driving. I'm sure you've done things on the road that deserved a lot more than a soda to the face.

I agree with dflemingdotorg. "Not as bad as it sounds", my ass. Please take some anger management classes, or walk to work, or something.
posted by Shecky at 1:49 PM on January 5, 2007

But two years is excessive.

I'm surprised it's so short actually, I've been told by a prosecutor that Stafford County juries are known to give out long sentences. Again, IANAL, but here's a little background. She was charged with throwing a "missile" at a car, which depending on the maliciousness of her intent, is either a class 4 felony punishable by "term of imprisonment of not less than two years nor more than 10 years" or a class six felony punishable by a "term of imprisonment of not less than one year nor more than five years" (see here). This is in addition to the assault & battery charge and the reckless driving charges (both misdemeanors).

There is a little information, but nothing very interesting, on the Virginia Courts case management system (select Stafford Co. and search for "Hall, Jessica").
posted by peeedro at 1:49 PM on January 5, 2007

This and many other traffic related problems will be solved once high powered traffic management computer systems control all the vehicles on a given strectch of road. Like packets through a router, every path will be optimized with no actual stops, only slowing to adjust. Perhaps in 20 years or less this will be in places like Singapore with other cities to follow.

It's the year 2026. I go to start my car and a message flashes across the dashboard - "Buffering..... please wait"
posted by smoothvirus at 1:52 PM on January 5, 2007

I think she oughta serve it in a 6x6 cell ... with plexiglass walls and filled with those multi-coloured sponge balls.
posted by RavinDave at 1:52 PM on January 5, 2007

She deserves a break today. So get up and put her away... How about a three month stint working at McDonalds? Justice served- with fries.

Also I think the more grievous offence was driving on the shoulder. What if like I was there like changing a tire?
posted by Gungho at 2:01 PM on January 5, 2007

Every night on Georgia Ave. I imagine how I would spray any given offending car with bullets. Spray.
posted by cowbellemoo at 2:01 PM on January 5, 2007

Honestly, as much as I can't stand assholes who feel like they have to act out their frustrations for every real or perceived slight they suffer on the nation's highways, it's hard to imagine that this will serve as an effective deterrent, and society will have to bear the cost of her imprisonment. So everyone loses.

OTOH if it could be demonstrated to be such a deterrent I'd be all for giving her two years in the lockup. I'm really sick to death of people overreacting with such fury while simultaneously trying manage the operation a two ton piece of machinery.
posted by psmealey at 2:11 PM on January 5, 2007

What's the deal with the Ohio-Virginia-Florida axis? It seems like these "holy shit" stories always come out of there.
posted by hodyoaten at 2:18 PM on January 5, 2007

I'm really sick to death of people overreacting

heh.
posted by srboisvert at 2:22 PM on January 5, 2007

It seems a little much. But, I've twice had drivers attempt to assault me -- once after actually knocking me down in the street with his car! (He was slowly moving through a red light while talking on his cell phone -- he didn't even see that he'd hit me until I got up and thumped, not particularly hard, on his hood, then he chased me from over a block -- the cops who witnessed it did nothing at all...)

So lock her up. She could have killed someone. People need to understand that they aren't Gods just because they own a big car.
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 2:24 PM on January 5, 2007

Huh. When I was assaulted by a road raging couple which resulted in a cracked windshield (from the drink bottle thrown at it while driving), a dent in my hood from the man hitting it in frustration (from not being able to hit me - was too elusive), and a broken finger (from when he finally grabbed me and threw me to the ground), the man was sentenced to pay $50 a month until the incurred expenses claimed were paid off. Of course he only made three payments. I had to claim all medical expenses within 30 days of the assault, which was less than half of the eventual total, so he got a break there, too. Oh, and the judgement against him prevented me from getting assistance from Victims Reparations.

Compared to that, this woman has been royally screwed by the system.
posted by effwerd at 2:38 PM on January 5, 2007

heh

Slight difference between using a figure of speech to express exasperation and actually throwing something at someone from a moving car.

heh, indeed.
posted by psmealey at 2:38 PM on January 5, 2007

Meh. I threw a can of warm orange soda at (into the car of) a driver (stopped at the time) who almost killed me on 76 in Philly when I was on my way home for a nooner.

!!!

It's really not as bad as it sounds

It's really a lot worse than you're trying to make it sound.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:45 PM on January 5, 2007 [1 favorite]

You know, what she did was dangerous and she should be punished by more than just a fine or suspension of her license. But she's got kids, the dad's in Iraq.... what's gonna happen to the kids? Foster care? These kids have already had their father taken away from them, now the state of VA is going to shatter these kids' lives because their mom got pissed and threw a soda at someone in parking-lot traffic? I don't know... maybe make her do litter patrol or something but two years in prison?!?!?!?!!
posted by krash2fast at 2:45 PM on January 5, 2007

Make her do litter patrol for two years! On the shoulder of I-95, in particular.
posted by Brown Jenkin at 2:47 PM on January 5, 2007 [1 favorite]

What's the deal with the Ohio-Virginia-Florida axis? It seems like these "holy shit" stories always come out of there.

I can't speak for OH and VA, but Florida has a lot of crazies. A LOT. Watch any reality show, find the craziest, drunkest, most illogical participant- they're in "Pharmaceutical Sales" in FL.

Not surprisingly, all of my family is in Florida.
I spelled pharmaceutical right on the first try, yay!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:48 PM on January 5, 2007 [1 favorite]

Dont get me wrong, as I hate idiot, selfish ass holes as much as the next guy, but 2 years? come on...

She shouldnt have done that, but Im SURE she wouldnt have done that, if she knew what the penalty is. Ive thought about doing this to people before, but I will not anymore.

I say, give this case national attention, start a campaign against road rage, detailing the consequences and let her out after two months. Suspend her license for 6 months. Fine her $4000. Also, convict the other ass hole for assault. Who is he to make threatening gestures and probably verbally assault this poor woman? He had to have said something. Nobody gets that worked up to engage in road rage, display obscene gestures and does it calmly. His windows were down, and Im sure he shouted quite a few things here.

I think they both were wrong and should be punished.
posted by subaruwrx at 3:00 PM on January 5, 2007

I wouldn't mind locking her up for 2 years just for littering.
posted by 2sheets at 3:05 PM on January 5, 2007

effwerd

I would really love to hear the other side of that story. Something tells me there is more to it than "they road raged on me." Were you just sitting in your car, calmly parked on the side of the road?

I think we need more vigilante justice. This woman will end up getting a fine/having her license suspended, which will prove nothing to assholes that think it is ok to drive this way. People need to stand up and take back or roads from these nutjobs.
posted by Big_B at 3:17 PM on January 5, 2007

Also, convict the other ass hole for assault. Who is he to make threatening gestures and probably verbally assault this poor woman? He had to have said something. Nobody gets that worked up to engage in road rage, display obscene gestures and does it calmly. His windows were down, and Im sure he shouted quite a few things here.

None of which has the potential to cause any real harm, versus driving on the shoulder and throwing shit at other peoples cars.
posted by Big_B at 3:18 PM on January 5, 2007

As much as I hate asshole drivers, and doubly hate litterpugs... and TRIPLY hate people who throw shit from their cars, this is all about ego and revenge. The guy wants to get back at her, take her down a few pegs. He wants to "win".

Guess he showed her.
posted by LordSludge at 3:26 PM on January 5, 2007

68 comments and not a single white trash joke?
posted by kuujjuarapik at 3:27 PM on January 5, 2007

I threw a can of warm orange soda at (into the car of) a driver...

I used to be prone to a compulsive sort of slow-burn road rage in response to people like you. Actions like people throwing shit or acting dangerous on the road.

Not in the sense I threw shit BACK at anybody, but I did follow a couple of people, from a discrete distance, to where they parked. And waited until they left.

If you remain calm enough while snapping off wind shield wipers and letting air out of a tire by-standers don't even notice you.

Once during SeaFair a car full of "doods" was tearing it up off the freeway exit to down town in Seattle. Hanging out of windows. Bare-assing. But as they got into town they started throwing cans of beer at people. Half FULL cans of beer. The dips had no idea that as they tore down the street towards Second avenue they were gonna be stuck in traffic. And they were. They made all this noise like they were gonna leap out and kick ass - racing the rice-burners engine, honking their horn and swearing - generally pissing off the truck in front of them - who just stopped. While they did that. Me and another driver penned them in on the sides and they could not open their doors. They tried crawling out the windows to get out - to kick ass. And a cop pulled less than 30 seconds after that. Open containers. A street full of pissed off witnesses.

Dumb shits.
posted by tkchrist at 3:29 PM on January 5, 2007

I would really love to hear the other side of that story.

Obviously I had done something to piss them off, else there would be no cause for the rage. I had cut them off in traffic. I didn't mean to imply that I was without fault. Nonetheless, I don't think that justifies their response.
posted by effwerd at 3:29 PM on January 5, 2007

Also, convict the other ass hole for assault. Who is he to make threatening gestures and probably verbally assault this poor woman? He had to have said something...

Is it just me? Or does this sentiment seem truly pussy.

I have a helpful mantra for you. Say it daily.

It goes: "sticks and stones may break my..."

You know the rest.
posted by tkchrist at 3:34 PM on January 5, 2007

Sure, but someone antagonizing and berating other people gets off scott free while the lady (deservingly) gets two years. I mean, its a real fine line between road rage yelling, and road rage throwing shit. Focus on the eliminating teh road rage yelling and the road rage throwing shit will come down as well.

Sure, its bull shit to get offended at someone yelling profanities at me, but it still bothers me. It still provokes me enough to action. Remember Zidane? Eveyrone was up in arms that he would head butt another player on teh field, until it came out what the other player said. All of a sudden, Zidane is a hero for sticking up for his mother or whatever.

My point is, as badly as you want words to be meaningless, if you were african american and some jerk off told you "Get the fuck out of the way you stupid n_____" you would no doubt be riled up and angry. His actions didnt cause you any harm, but he incited the violence. He should be equally as responsible for the outcome as you.
posted by subaruwrx at 3:44 PM on January 5, 2007

Man, I don't know what the deal is, but somehow just being on the road makes people absolutely livid about things that wouldn't bother them much at all in person. Probably people don't have fatal accidents walking into each other in public.
posted by delmoi at 3:44 PM on January 5, 2007

Er, as badly as you want words to be meaningless, they arent.

Sorry, should ahve thrown that in to make the last couple of sentances coherent.
posted by subaruwrx at 3:44 PM on January 5, 2007

I dont know delmoi, I was in teh elevator this morning and some guy backed up into a woman and stepped on her foot. She made a big deal about and the guy apologized profusely. She wouldnt drop it and the (getting increasingly agitated) told her, "I said Im sorry", the woman kept talking on her cell phone to whomever, "Can you believe this guy? He just totally stepped on my foot. I cant believe it. Who does he think he is?"

cliffs: people are jerks everywhere
posted by subaruwrx at 3:46 PM on January 5, 2007

So let's see if I can reconstruct the sequence of events described in the post and by effwerd:

1) Your crappy driving endangers the lives and property of others on the road.
2) They call you on it with harsh words and gestures.
3) You respond by assaulting them.
4) Then act like you're the victim, saying like, "I don't think that justifies their response."

You don't think dangerous driving justifies harsh words and gestures, but you think harsh words and gestures justifies assault?!!!

In what universe does this not make you a Grade-A asshole?
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:00 PM on January 5, 2007

While I can understand those who feel the punishment is going to hurt the children the most, I can't help but think that the woman's driving is a bigger danger to the children than them living without mom for a while. Not only was she driving erratically and throwing things at the guy, but she approached him when he pulled over to clean off the McDonald's as though she were going to confront him personally. That's dangerous, and that kind of driver shouldn't have children in the car. Or be on the road.

Two years seems excessive, so I suspect the judge will suspend a significant chunk of the sentence.
posted by smashingstars at 4:15 PM on January 5, 2007

I often wish there was some sort of way I could very rationally explain to people that do something stupid just exactly what it is that they did and what idiots they are. Sadly, this recourse is not readily available and the perpetrators of said heinous idiocy are free to continue driving, blissfully unaware.

As someone who drives quite a bit, I can tell you that there are a ton of people on the road who are a danger to themselves and others for a variety of reasons, and I can understand why--even if I can't condone it--people occasionally lash out in anger and frustration.

For example, several weeks ago I was driving along a two-lane highway. The speed limit is 80 km/h, so everyone is doing 85-90ish, as is standard. I'm in the right lane approaching a set of lights (green) by a large big box store. I'm watching someone that's waiting to merge onto the highway (from a yield sign, not a merge lane) for three or four seconds. Finally, once I've nearly reached the intersection, said idiot-in-mini-van decides to merge at the tremendous speed of perhaps 20 km/h. There wasn't much chance I'd be able to stop, so I was forced to quickly swerve around them. The only thing that saved this idiot from causing a very severe accident is that I've had enough run-ins with idiots in cars--including three or four times at that intersection--to keep an eye out. In fact, I'd already checked the lane beside me, just in case the person decided to pull out.

As I said, when something like that happens and someone puts your health in immediate danger out of either sheer idiocy or inability to properly control a motor vehicle, it does take some self-control not to do some rash. Fortunately, I've discovered over time that, believe it or not, a healthy blast of the ol' horn does sufficiently shame drivers, and hopefully makes them think twice in the future.

Still, it's frightening what kind of people are able to drive just because it's viewed as some God-given right in western culture. The standards should be higher.
posted by The God Complex at 4:17 PM on January 5, 2007

You don't think dangerous driving justifies harsh words and gestures, but you think harsh words and gestures justifies assault?!!!

In what universe does this not make you a Grade-A asshole?

A-fucking-men.
posted by The God Complex at 4:17 PM on January 5, 2007

I guess I should clarify my "for a while" meant I think she'll serve far less than two years.
posted by smashingstars at 4:19 PM on January 5, 2007

Oh, and there's a pretty healthy percentage of bad drivers that are sure they're not the ones that have committed the transgression, even when they very clearly are. My favorite example of this is a guy in a mini-van (again, the mini-van) turning left as if he had an advance green when he only had a normal green. Luckily, the only oncoming traffic was us, and we were turning right, so said near-accident was only us almost turning into each other at a reasonably low speed, rather than us being killed in our smaller car by a huge fucking mini-van.

The best part of this encounter was the man's indignant rage. He started flashing his brights, honking his horn, and screaming out his window for us to pull over. We did, and he insisted we'd had our own lane (we hadn't, but it will would have been his responsibility to yield to traffic that had the right of way and pay attention) and, furthermore, that we'd been "turning on a red light because I had a green" (he apparently failed, after many years of driving, to understand the difference between advance green and green lights). Now, this would have been bad enough, but he then proceeded to scream-lecture us about how he "had a fucking baby" in the car, and we "could have killed his kid--can't you see the fucking baby-on-board sticker".

Yikes.
posted by The God Complex at 4:26 PM on January 5, 2007 [1 favorite]

For the record, after he'd finished screaming his lungs out, I--always unable to resist a jab, however inappropriate--informed him that, in the future, he should probably adhere more closely to the rules of the road, if not for our safety, than for that of "the fucking baby" in his car.
posted by The God Complex at 4:29 PM on January 5, 2007

Hey, at least a dog didn't get punted into the river...
posted by KirkJobSluder at 4:46 PM on January 5, 2007

Get the fuck out of the way you stupid n_____" you would no doubt be riled up and angry. His actions didnt cause you any harm, but he incited the violence... [snip] He should be equally as responsible for the outcome as you.

Cool. So if somebody calls me a nigger I can shoot them. And we BOTH go jail. Only. He be dead and shit.

AWESOME!

Are there indignities I will not suffer? Yes. But it is both contextual AND a matter of judgment. IF your a deliberate insufferable jerk and insulting to me, or to, say my wife, and I can get away with say knocking your ass out and not endanger anybody else? Yes. I might. Should I go to jail if get caught? FUCK YES! Though I think mitigating circumstances should be considered.

But we are talking the potnetial LETHAL outcome of enacting vigilaty justice behind the wheel of a 5 ton goddamned missile. Anything can happen.

Sorry. It's sticks and stones for us big adults. No matter WHAT your skin color or thickness.
posted by tkchrist at 4:48 PM on January 5, 2007

I live in Puebla, Mexico and people drive bat-shit insane here (they pull in front of each other, cut each other off, etc). The odd thing? I never see signs of road rage and hardly any accidents

but we walk cuz we're skeerd to drive
posted by Hands of Manos at 4:52 PM on January 5, 2007

ha ha stupitidy. i like my typos. pleliong errors happen to everyone.
posted by lisalisa123 at 4:59 PM on January 5, 2007

I'm very hesitant, given the state of our jails, the state of the foster care system into which this woman's children will be dropped, and the ultimate outcome of the incident in question to think that two years is appropriate. No one was injured -- someone might have been, but they weren't. We ought not have a system of "justice" which punishes people on the basis of what could've happened but didn't.

The jury also recommended a $1,000 fine. Let her pay, sentence her to anger management and traffic school classes, take away her license for a year or two, give her a year or two probation. Don't jam up an entire family when no one even got a scratch or bruise. It's overkill -- and a serious thumb of the nose to victims of actual violence who see their assailants given considerably shorter sentences every day.
posted by Dreama at 5:02 PM on January 5, 2007

cry me a river. she was cutting in (twice) from the shoulder, then she drenched the victim and his ladyfriend with an unknown liquid. that'll get you a copper-jacketed hollow point in the head from some people i know. two years sounds about right, put the kids in the orphanage and move on.
posted by bruce at 5:05 PM on January 5, 2007

We ought not have a system of "justice" which punishes people on the basis of what could've happened but didn't.

if we really believe in the justice system as a prevention and rehabilitation system, we're not targeting the results of crimes, we're targeting intent. her intent was the same as someone who throws it and it turns out badly. the only thing different is that she was fortunate enough not to injure someone and she should not be rewarded for that.
posted by dflemingdotorg at 5:31 PM on January 5, 2007

A fatal accident in Prince William was the reason for what Elsasser described as "slow and go" traffic.

Rather poignant, that. Ought to make one think. Which is what I try to do when I see bad driving.
posted by IndigoJones at 5:50 PM on January 5, 2007

Do you have any idea how hard those things can hit, even if the can is open, even if the target is "stopped"?

NOT. HARD. ENOUGH.
posted by bunnycup at 6:01 PM on January 5, 2007

On second reading- "a gesture expressing exasperation" does not necessarily mean giving her the finger, and closely reading her comment of equivalence between finger giving and garbage throwing (to say nothing of the obvious sympathy he received and she did not in court), I got an impression of, say, his throwing up his hands and making an exasperated face. That is to say, she did not say, "well, he flipped me a bird, what about that?"

Of course, I could be wrong, but as noted above, less gentility and better description in the local paper really was called for.

(Where were the kids, by the way? I like to think shame would have prevented her from doing this in their presence.)
posted by IndigoJones at 6:08 PM on January 5, 2007

Indigo, particularly in light of the fact that if you read the article closely, it indicated that BALLIN ("Victim") testified that he used a "gesture", not the other way around as you imply. Naturally he would testify in a manner to understate his instigation of the fight - he was up on assault charges as well. He's not going to walk into court and say "Yeah I flipped her off". I guaran-goddamn-tee it that he tried to make it sound like he was an innocent poor victim of a soda assault, and her attorney cross-examined him about his own actions and forced him to admit, which he did in a criminal-defendant testimony type way, that he flipped her off.
posted by bunnycup at 6:15 PM on January 5, 2007

wow bunnycup, seriously, I'm glad you don't drive our freeways in the Bay area...we'd be reading about you in the news no doubt.
posted by Holy foxy moxie batman! at 7:59 PM on January 5, 2007

The thing about driving in this country (the US) is, the average driver considers himself or herself to be an above-average driver. I've heard numerous radio call-in shows, personal conversations, I've read dozens of internet conversations, and all I hear about are the stupid things that other people do on the road. And this leads me to wonder: where or who are the people who are doing these things? Surely those complaining about others couldn't possibly be doing these things themselves at least occasionally - that would be hypocritical.
posted by deadcowdan at 8:43 PM on January 5, 2007

bunnycup, i see from your profile you're a lawyer (too, but i'm retired). are you aware the state of new york can pull your bar card if you're convicted of assault and battery?

they do that, he'll throw a can of soda at them ... you should see him at pre-trial conferences with opposing attorneys ... first he shows up with his suitcase and then some guy with a dolly follows him in with a few cases of grape nehi ... he gets the slingshot out of his back pocket, loads up a can and catapults that baby into wall just to show everyone what kind of dent it can make

you can bet your ass they don't teach THAT at harvard law school
posted by pyramid termite at 9:18 PM on January 5, 2007 [1 favorite]

Anyone driving on the shoulder for any reason other than a true-blue, holy-shit emergency (not "I was in a hurry") should serve at least a month in prison. Maybe six. Two years sounds about right, actually.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 9:29 PM on January 5, 2007

It's Raining Florence Henderson says,
So let's see if I can reconstruct the sequence of events described in the post and by effwerd:

1) Your crappy driving endangers the lives and property of others on the road.
2) They call you on it with harsh words and gestures.
3) You respond by assaulting them.
4) Then act like you're the victim, saying like, "I don't think that justifies their response."

You don't think dangerous driving justifies harsh words and gestures, but you think harsh words and gestures justifies assault?!!!

In what universe does this not make you a Grade-A asshole?

Huh? Color me confused. I was very much under the impression that effwerd was the one who was assaulted by the man and not the other way around. Upon rereading his/her post I'm still not seeing the "you respond by assaulting them" part.
posted by Land Stander at 9:37 PM on January 5, 2007

Regarding the issue of suspending her license, it is worth noting that from the article the woman appears to be from New York. If that is the case, then she has a New York driver's licence. Virginia does not have the power to suspend her New York driver's license. The only thing Virginia can do is suspend her privilege to drive in Virginia.

Assuming there is reciprocity between the states, then any moving violation conviction in Virginia may then be treated by New York's DMV as though it happened in New York. She could then be suspended by whatever rules of suspension that New York has for the equivelant offense. However, she would just be subject to the ordinary suspensions from the DMV. Anything the judge says about her license will have no effect on her New York license.
posted by flarbuse at 9:50 PM on January 5, 2007

shes in jail, husband is a marine... what the fucks happens to the kids? DCFS?
posted by phaedon at 10:03 PM on January 5, 2007

I would hope that the husband gets sent home and she starts serving her sentence once he's back. Throwing a soldier's kids in a foster home is bad for morale.
posted by ryanrs at 11:05 PM on January 5, 2007

Holy shit, Land Stander, how the Hell did I do that?! It was bunnycup that threw the can at the driver's head. effwerd, as you rightly pointed out, was horribly assaulted. effwerd: My profuse and sincere apologies! Tonight, it is I who am the asshole. I've flagged my own comment as "Offensive Content." With that complete fuckup revealed, I'm off to bed, having completely failed at the Internet for the day.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:55 AM on January 6, 2007

the upside is that, probably, by the time she gets out of jail her husband will be back from Iraq
posted by matteo at 3:39 AM on January 6, 2007

Family reunion!
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:45 AM on January 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

bunnycup, i see from your profile you're a lawyer (too, but i'm retired). are you aware the state of new york can pull your bar card if you're convicted of assault and battery? you don't appear to have the level of good judgement it takes to practice law.

Then I'm sure you've heard of this thing they have called a Statute of Limitations, and so I'm comfortably certain no lingering assault charges are following from that time I was 17 and someone tried to kill me. So keep your "I'm a lawyer and so much wiser and smarter than you" arrogant face shoved back up the ass it belongs.
posted by bunnycup at 6:14 AM on January 6, 2007

Yup, looked it up like you should have done before preaching your little song and dance - any statute of limitations on my soda toss ran in 1999 (i.e. 2 years after the alleged event). But you go ahead and run with your cheap superiority, I'm sure that's the only thing that lets you drag yourself out of bed in the morning.
posted by bunnycup at 6:19 AM on January 6, 2007

This kind of stuff is one of the reasons I left Northern Virginia.
posted by JanetLand at 7:24 AM on January 6, 2007

*ducks as bunnycup chucks Big Mac and orange soda at bruce*
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 7:42 AM on January 6, 2007

i.e. 2 years after the alleged event

alleged by you, actually (it's called a confession). or were you just making shit up? you either confessed committing a felony (one you're still cheerfully unrepentant of) or made shit up. you're either a felon who escaped punishment or a liar. or both. not bad for a 26 year old, counselor.
posted by matteo at 8:24 AM on January 6, 2007

bunnycup, you should seek professional help. you're projecting some high-wattage hate on here. your radioactive persona makes you about as much fun to approach as a spitting cobra. i'm sure all new yorkers aren't like that, i know several who are easygoing, mellow.
the quality of your relationships will improve, you'll have more friends and you'll be healthier/live longer; the mind-body connection you may have heard of is real.

i've heard of people being dropped as a baby, but i've never heard of one being run over by a d-8 caterpiller tractor. oh, and you can flame me all you want, use every foul word in your vocabulary. my internet persona never gets angry and feels no pain, because

the internet is the modern ukiyo-e (japanese for "floating world") with samurai, geishas and entertainment. please bunnycup, be a good geisha - i forgive you for your extraordinarily self-revelatory outbursts (and i respectfully suggest that you ask the admins to delete them).
posted by bruce at 8:25 AM on January 6, 2007

bruce, i respectfully suggest you grow some balls.
posted by bunnycup at 8:58 AM on January 6, 2007

shes in jail, husband is a marine... what the fucks happens to the kids? DCFS?

Perhaps, although that doesn't necessarily means the kids will go to strangers- I believe they will first try to place the kids with family. And that's if she goes to jail, which is still up in the air.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:09 AM on January 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

I'm flipping off bunnycup right now. Take that tough guy.
posted by tkchrist at 9:26 AM on January 6, 2007

What kinda GUY would have a name like "bunnycup"?!?!?!
posted by bunnycup at 9:32 AM on January 6, 2007

I hope this isn't par for the course when it comes to bunnycup.... welcome to metahate!
posted by Holy foxy moxie batman! at 9:36 AM on January 6, 2007 [1 favorite]

respectfully suggests i grow some balls
**shrugs**
anybody else getting the same feeling i am? a lawyer is a professional communicator in a role demanding nuance and subtlety. the job requires the ability to forge positive relationships with clients, other lawyers and judges. there's a certain level of sophistication and even-temperament embodied in the word "professional"...

i'm not seeing any of that.
posted by bruce at 9:46 AM on January 6, 2007

Aww Brucie am I not nice enough for you? I'll take your "career advice" into consideration next time I want to sound like an arrogant old man.
posted by bunnycup at 9:55 AM on January 6, 2007

51 isn't old, sheesh. i'm a svelte 14 stone 7 and i still got all my hair!
and now i got my own personal metaflamer. that ain't nuthin. as one of the few libertarian commenters on a neoconservative politics/journalism blog, i have recently been called a "communist", a "dipshit" and a "wanker" by some of my dozen or so personal flamers.

so if you're gonna go this route, let me offer you some higher-octane epithets for your consideration:

knave
bounder
jackanapes
blackguard
varlet
poltroon
mountebank
upstart!
posted by bruce at 10:13 AM on January 6, 2007

What kinda GUY would have a name like "bunnycup"?!?!?!

what kind of girl acts like a 14 year old jock overdosing on steroids?
posted by pyramid termite at 10:34 AM on January 6, 2007

Bruce: Good job collecting people who care. Now you don't have to be one of those poor lonely old people who has to call the cops on Christmas to get attention, which is just about the saddest thing since used up old lawyers feeling the need to tell everyone else what to do. Instead, you can sit around your house desperately thinking of thinly veiled crap to bait all your "personal flamers" so they pay attention to your wrinkly ass for another 5 minutes and keep you from falling asleep before Wheel of Fortune. Or even better, you can regale the younger woman you used all the cash you got putting criminals back on the streets (or protecting CEOs who take all our money, pushing paper around while you make "important" phone calls to "critical clients", taking children away from their mothers or generally filling any of the equally shameful roles with which pretty much all lawyers embarass humanity daily) to buy, with the "humorous" stories off that time you pompously lectured some girl while you were on the internet, and chuckle lamely about how important you think you are.

So, keep on going Brucie, lecture away. The more you talk, the less I care and the more I will laugh about this later.

Starting....now.
posted by bunnycup at 11:13 AM on January 6, 2007

every...single...one of my clients was a "critical client".

there were no unimportant phone calls with clients.

and for christmas, i receive about 50 cards from ex-clients i haven't spoken to or acknowledged since 1995 when i left law for dotcoms, and i'm not even a christian.

pray tell, what shameful role in law do you play? do you do any pro bono? i was commended by the california bar for "outstanding contributions to the delivery of pro bono legal services." it's an obligation of the profession.

younger woman, check. i'm going salmon fishing with her in a few minutes (so will not return here today), but she likes to talk about sustainable agriculture and on-site alternative power generation, so i doubt you'll come up. peace out!
posted by bruce at 11:57 AM on January 6, 2007

SUCH an important person, WOW. Glad that arrogance comment I made was so far off the mark.
posted by bunnycup at 1:10 PM on January 6, 2007

I cycle for transportation in a major city so I know all about road rage. What stuns me is how recklessly and angrily drivers will react to my law-abiding presence on the road, full well knowing that the slightest move with their SUV could easily kill or maim me.

(Yesterday, coming home from work, a woman in an SUV roared past me on the left while I was to the left side of the lane, on a two-lane bidirectional residential street, signalling a left turn, and only a couple of seconds from making the turn. I would've been under her truck if it had been a second or two later.)

Sometimes I am just amazed at motorists; is making it to the next red light quickly of the utmost importance?
posted by loiseau at 1:12 PM on January 6, 2007

i'm going salmon fishing with her in a few minutes

SUCH an important person, WOW. Glad that arrogance comment I made was so far off the mark.

Sorry I'm late!

::gets popcorn out of the microwave::

(Let us know if you catch anything good, Bruce.)

Loiseau, I know what you mean. They either don't care about your presence on the road, or they are so freaked out by it that they don't know how to act, because of the whole "slightest move with their SUV could easily kill or maim me" part. That can get annoying.
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 6:47 PM on January 6, 2007

::gets popcorn out of the microwave::

Sets up lawn chair (hey -- it was in the 70's here in Boston today!); pops open a beer -- and offers one to CF12 in exchange for a fistful of popcorn.
posted by ericb at 7:16 PM on January 6, 2007

NOOB FIGHT!

I'll get the pancakes
posted by blasdelf at 7:42 PM on January 6, 2007

a lawyer is a professional communicator in a role demanding nuance and subtlety

Yes, but what about the Chewbacca Defense?
posted by frogan at 8:13 PM on January 6, 2007

every...single...one of my clients was a "critical client".

i'll take things you never want to hear from your doctor for 500, alex
posted by pyramid termite at 8:27 PM on January 6, 2007

Double noob flameout? C'mon guys where is your passion? Get your hate on.
posted by caddis at 8:38 PM on January 6, 2007

bruce: "i'm going salmon fishing with her in a few minutes (so will not return here today), but she likes to talk about sustainable agriculture and on-site alternative power generation, so i doubt you'll come up. peace out!"

HA! Bunnycup, you're like some ridiculous villain out of a silent film.

douchebag.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 9:07 PM on January 6, 2007

Well, while waiting for bruce and bunnycup to make more self-important statements, here's a story for you:

I used to work at a used bookstore, and a lot of the excess books ended up going home with co-workers. One of them was driving home one day and got into an altercation with another driver, and they ended up pulling up next to each other at the end of the exit ramp, waiting for the light to turn green. Said co-worker had a dictionary in her car (from surplus book supply), and it was also summertime - windows were down. She chucked the dictionary into the guys passenger seat, and shouted, "Look up the definition of 'merge' sometime!" Light turned, and she drove off cackling.

Myself, I usually follow tkchrist's method.
posted by Liosliath at 9:34 PM on January 6, 2007

"the internet is the modern ukiyo-e (japanese for "floating world")..."

Bruce, even if we didn't know the meaning of ukiyo-e (though I do), one could LOOK IT UP. It's the magic of teh internets, you know. Don't be so fucking condescending.
posted by Liosliath at 9:41 PM on January 6, 2007

Wow, reading this makes me extra sad that bunnycup didn't tote her ridiculous haircut out to the bar tonight. Good times!
posted by Help, I can't stop talking! at 9:44 PM on January 6, 2007

she's going to the bar tonight? ... please tell me they're not serving anything in cans

and for christmas, i receive about 50 cards from ex-clients i haven't spoken to or acknowledged since 1995

and the return addresses all read "c/o Sing Sing Prison" ... HA HA HA!!
posted by pyramid termite at 11:02 PM on January 6, 2007

bunnycup, take a week off. You're not adding anything here but bad attitude.
posted by jessamyn at 11:44 PM on January 6, 2007

bunnycup, take a week off. You're not adding anything here but bad attitude.

OH SNAP

But Jesssss....
::gestures at popcorn and beer::

Ugh. Shows over, guys.

Anyways, I'd scroll up and look for myself, but... it's 3:00 in the morning. Is there any other news about this case other than what is linked to in the original post? I want to know if she actually got 2 years or not.
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 12:04 AM on January 7, 2007

Wow. The definition of assault is not lessened when one is struck with a comical object. Throwing a mcdonald's bag and throwing a rock are equally dangerous on the highway. This post is sensationalist fear-of-justice crap.
posted by tehloki at 1:02 AM on January 7, 2007

Prediction: On Feb 21 (it helps if you read the linked articles) she'll be sentenced to time served, which would be 47 days.
posted by fixedgear at 3:38 AM on January 7, 2007

Anybody else got Jackson Browne's Lawyers in Love going in their head?
posted by Kirth Gerson at 5:14 AM on January 7, 2007

NOOB FIGHT!

Seriously. I haven't seen a 1 on 1, everyone else be damned pissing contest like this since USENET c. 1995.
posted by psmealey at 5:40 AM on January 7, 2007

the roman colosseum vibe here is much more off-putting than anything bunnycup said. i gonna have to disappoint you voyeurs.
bunnycup, i apologize if anything i wrote impaired your good cheer. the one thing (and forgive my presumption) please ma'am, don't be confessing to violent felonies on the internet. there's an old joke about a catholic farmer confessing to taking carnal pleasure in his barn, and the punchline goes "that's the one i woulda kepta myself."
muted sardonic chuckle to mr. termite and mr. gerson; i love lawyer jokes too.
posted by bruce at 11:14 AM on January 7, 2007

What kinda GUY would have a name like "bunnycup"?!?!?!

The kind with teeny-weeny tiny testicles? Those cute-miniture-just-sprouted-immature testes that want to be cradled and indulged. Of the "be an anonymous tough talker on the internet" variety.

You did ask Bruce to "grow some balls", after all? I assumed you spoke from what was obviously recent experience. I hope your not too sore down there. It could make sitting in your basement typing up idiotic screeds a chore, I imagine.

PS. Welcome back from Stockholm.
posted by tkchrist at 1:51 PM on January 7, 2007

the roman colosseum vibe

Actually, MeFi went "FINISH HIM!" and Jessamyn got all up-down-up-up-PUNCH on him and tore his spine out.
posted by frogan at 4:35 PM on January 7, 2007

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